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Virtual Russian posted:Games need to have a community to be played in, for LI to be a success a community of wargamers must form around it. All I'm saying is that it would make sense to me for GW to offer up the core rules as a PDF so grogs with Space Marines or Guard could play games with people that bought LI. This would vastly increase the number of people playing LI, which will draw in more people because there is an active community around the game. More players means more money for GW, even if getting this started meant forgoing a few rulebook sales to grogs. I'm not talking about what is good for clubs or any of that stuff. Just that it makes sense to me to offer core rules as a pdf, like they did before, and do for 40k, as a way to quickly grow the number of people playing the game, increasing visibility. The flaw in the argument is that there aren't enough grogs playing Epic with old models to make them worth catering to, and even if there were, they want and need them to buy the new products. Hand in hand with that is the phenomenon where, for the most part, legacy grogs may just not hand over money when the new thing is offered. Because they are invested in their decades old models and their idea of what the game is, and cannot be relied upon to support the new version. Far from being a driver of interest and expansion, that sort of player tends to be the one who drives negativity in the run up to a new edition coming out. With reflexive, defensive criticism, a sense of offense that their old models and game are now being taken from them. They also tend to advocate for third party or homemade proxies, which again is not helpful to a company selling product. We've seen it on SA and the wider hobby community with both LI and AT in recent years. From a business perspective, and community building one, it's easier and a lot safer to just start from the ground up, especially when you already have people playing 30k and AT invested in the setting. You'll bring in new players, people who remember the old system, and some (like you) of the active remnant community. And all of them are paying money to support the new product line and help make it sustainable. Free rules are something you can much more easily afford if you know you already have a successful game with a large baked in audience. In a situation like with LI, it'd just be increasing the pressure on breaking even for no provably tangible gain.
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Nov 20, 2023 19:04
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Virtual Russian posted:Also Net:EA is just a community maintained version of Epic Amrageddon. Net:EA is epic.
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Nov 20, 2023 19:21
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Safety Factor posted:https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/11/20/old-world-almanack-fight-the-good-fight-in-the-combat-phase/ Some interesting stuff, pushing and ordered fall backs should make combat a lot more mobile and open up interesting flanking opportunities.
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Nov 20, 2023 19:26
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Safety Factor posted:https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/11/20/old-world-almanack-fight-the-good-fight-in-the-combat-phase/ I think I like the 'wide units can fight with all modes' rule. It will spell the doom of the 5 wide 10 deep units of cheap rubbish to lock units in combat all game, especially with 'Horde' gone as well. I dont think we'll get 15 wide 2 deep units though because ranks are still really important for break tests but im sure theres weird edge cases where it would make sense.
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Nov 20, 2023 19:41
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serious gaylord posted:I think I like the 'wide units can fight with all modes' rule. It will spell the doom of the 5 wide 10 deep units of cheap rubbish to lock units in combat all game, especially with 'Horde' gone as well. I dont think we'll get 15 wide 2 deep units though because ranks are still really important for break tests but im sure theres weird edge cases where it would make sense. I wonder if the +3 cap on rank bonus is removed. The article doesn't mention it though obviously it's just a quick article so we can't put too much stock in it. Getting rank bonuses larger than +3 would be difficult for most units regardless. It would take 30 models to make a 6x5 block to get +4. And then 42 with 7x6 to get +5.
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Nov 20, 2023 20:43
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I like that the best outcome of losing a combat is that you still get pushed backwards. Seems flavorful
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Nov 20, 2023 20:48
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Here is what an LI army painted to a basic tabletop standard looks like (if you’re Richard Gray) https://youtu.be/SS8S8EPxvcs?si=NFROYGGqiRoLMug4 Also he reviews the kit and gives his opinion on the blob marines.
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Nov 20, 2023 21:27
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Virtual Russian posted:I had an opponent using these last year, it was great to see them. Someone from another table brought over their AI Thunderhawk and we all had a good laugh. The epic community, at least in the pacific northwest, is usually extremely chill and loves to see the old stuff in use. I've only ever had one person that was grumpy about "out of scale" stuff, and he was grumpy that the new titans were so big. I still have one in my scrap bin alongside random bits and pieces.
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Nov 20, 2023 23:32
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Siivola posted:I think we're holding opposite enough viewpoints that I'm cool with agreeing to disagree, but just wanted to clarify that the other epic I was thinking of was NetEpic. I'm almost certain there's also a third community edition of this floating around there somewhere. I was going to suggest the same. And yes, there are many fan maintained version. NetEpic is based on Space Marine, so far closer to LI. There is also a Uk specific Armageddon version, a french one, so many. Lovely Joe Stalin posted:The flaw in the argument is that there aren't enough grogs playing Epic with old models to make them worth catering to, and even if there were, they want and need them to buy the new products. Hand in hand with that is the phenomenon where, for the most part, legacy grogs may just not hand over money when the new thing is offered. Because they are invested in their decades old models and their idea of what the game is, and cannot be relied upon to support the new version. I feel like I'm not being clear. I'm not saying GW is going to make money off grogs. They won't, we already have our collections, I've said that a few times now. Grogs certainly don't have a monopoly on 3d printing or proxies either, I see tons of that stuff for 40k all the time. The value to giving the grogs an easy pathway is that it would simply result in more people playing more games, which will entice in actual new players. Those new players, who were attracted to the game because there is an active LI community in their local area are where GW makes their money. This is why with each new edition of 40k they only retire a very small portion of their range, and introduce a little more. If every new edition of 40k invalidated the previous one and everyone had to buy all new minis people would stop playing fast, it wouldn't make them more money because people would leave. If you incorporate your existing player base into the next version you are starting from a better position. That is all I'm saying. It isn't like a free PDF of the core rules is some huge deal either. They've done it in the past and currently do it for their flagship game, this isn't some huge departure from the norm. So to be crystal clear: If GW puts up free core rules for LI some grogs will play it with their existing collections. More players is how a game succeeds, because people playing games in a club is how most people encounter games. If someone plays the game from a PDF and likes it they will probably buy a rulebook, I did that with 40k recently. That is all I'm saying. I said absolutely nothing to do with grogs buying in or anything else like that. Lets also not pretend that a PDF scan won't be online to pirate, better to just get out ahead of that.
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Nov 20, 2023 23:52
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thats a huge amount of mesbg terrain
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Nov 21, 2023 00:21
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It's also very frustrating being in the "plan your army" stage of a new game with gently caress-all to go on except for what some YouTubers (and those who can stand them) have passed on. Most grogs can never be appeased, but you can put out enough info that enthusiasm will drown them out. What they're doing with Old World is ideal IMO. You know what you know, and this is what will be different. LI info was released into more or less of a vacuum, by contrast. Hell I don't know if I'll be hosed by painting my little mans like Iron Hands. I'll do it anyway, but I don't want to feel bad about it afterward.
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Nov 21, 2023 00:24
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Hey everyone, just a reminder: it's the last week to sign up for the main round of trad games secret santa! You could get some lord of the rings dude, or maybe a piece of epic-scale terrain, in 5mm, 6mm, 7mm, or 7.5mm. Or perhaps some skeletons!
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Nov 21, 2023 00:39
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Safety Factor posted:https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/11/20/old-world-almanack-fight-the-good-fight-in-the-combat-phase/ that there are three ways to lose combat is interesting, but they've hidden the meat of it, which is what those three fail states are. WHFB always suffered from overly binary failstates with leadership so i'm curious what's happening here. duel overkill being only resolution points is very dumb unless dueling changes significantly, which is possible. unit champions falling on challenges like a hand grenade remains one of my least favorite things of old warhammer. Weapon Skill chart is a shambling zombie mechanic from thirty years ago and was already long in the tooth when they introduced it. It sucks and it should die. The idea underlying the WS arithmetic is that the battlefield is a dangerous and random place. While your skill in combat does matter - a skillful warrior can more easily cut down a clumsy green peasant - even the greatest swordsman can die by being trampled to death by a horse. This logic is fitting for a wargame where combat between blocks of soldiers is a grim arithmetic. I know this not just from looking at the match, but because the underlying inspiration for the game is still around (although I'd recommend a successor game like MEG or ADLG because DBA's rules prose was written by a grog who even other grogs find mystifying). The problem is that WHFB is not that game and will not ever be that game. Setting side the player's own skill at getting favorable positioning, charges, etc., the skill and armament and grace of a given pawn are represented by the toughness score, initiative score, wound score, armor save, ward save, abilities of the unit the character is leading, abilities of the character themselves, abilities of any magic items carried by either, and abilities of any magic spell on any of the combatants. In practice, even on a very very good day, that peasant can only push even a very mundane hero one third of the way to being hors de combat, and that's assuming a typical lord who decided to charge out to battle with nothing more than a shield, a helm, and a grimace (  if your boss is going to fire you for 1:70 scale dongs, I guess). Even when you go from heroes in particular to merely elite units, there are still many of those layers of defense and it's common for units to benefit from several.Oh, WS doesn't work like BS? Okay. Is my WS higher than yours? Well I get a bonus on attack but kinda not defense. Actually it's kinda a bonus on defense, depending on how you look at it. Was the threshold for 5+ twice WS or more than twice? Lemme check. It's an artifact of a design philosophy that WHFB does not embrace at all. It not only adds an extra round of arithmetic to every single attack, but adds a spin on the dice that has to be undone at later steps of combat resolution. It's stupid pointless fiddling that's just here as catnip to people who resented AOS for existing, not for AOS's actual flaws (which are legion). Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 08:51 on Nov 21, 2023 |
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Nov 21, 2023 02:45
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Cease to Hope posted:that there are three ways to lose combat is interesting, but they've hidden the meat of it, which is what those three fail states are. WHFB always suffered from overly binary failstates with leadership so i'm curious what's happening here. Are AoS's actual flaws "Legion"? Seems a decently solid game
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Nov 21, 2023 03:00
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Some people still want to believe that AoS has all the flaws from the 1st edition.
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Nov 21, 2023 03:31
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(Sorry I'm a couple of pages late, but hot drat)TheDiceMustRoll posted:wtf What?! Are you confusing the Perry brothers with sculptors of a lesser quality? The Perry Bros. are great! Out of their post-GW stuff, I haven't delved into Napoleonics or anything, but their Italian WW2 minis are great. (Hell, I even bought this random heliograph signals section to repurpose them as a "we don't have enough radios to go around" arty spotter team, for sunny days  Since I can't get enough of their cool designs)As a result, I must join the masses awaiting your justification for this slander. Absolutely despicable!  EDIT: I also have this trike and traffic control officer too, I just remembered. Hilarious - I love putting these guys onto the table!  Perry are great
Major Isoor fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Nov 21, 2023 |
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Nov 21, 2023 03:43
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Talas posted:Some people still want to believe that AoS has all the flaws from the 1st edition. Like its getting to the point that nearly every army has gotten a major refresh, the lore has tons of depth now, the game is very solid and has been for years....jeeeesus.
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Nov 21, 2023 03:48
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:Are AoS's actual flaws "Legion"? Seems a decently solid game yes but please refer to my history of posting to understand the curve it's being graded on. i would describe AOS 3e decent for a warhammer edition; biggest objections are that saves are broken and MWs are an end-run around that, and the clusterfuck that is battle tactics e: the double-turn is the most interesting part of AOS and GW should release a collection of ridiculous pantomime rules for every edition of every game Cease to Hope fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Nov 21, 2023 |
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Nov 21, 2023 04:30
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Cease to Hope posted:duel overkill being only resolution points is very dumb unless dueling changes significantly, which is possible. unit champions falling on challenges like a hand grenade remains one of my least favorite things of old warhammer. We don't know it's duel overkill cause it just says overkill. Could be that any models that takes overkill damage causes a leadership debuff cause it's scary to the others.
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Nov 21, 2023 05:41
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MonsterEnvy posted:We don't know it's duel overkill cause it just says overkill. Could be that any models that takes overkill damage causes a leadership debuff cause it's scary to the others. possible but strikes me as unlikely
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Nov 21, 2023 08:44
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Interestingly the outnumber combat bonus seems to be gone. I'm really excited about most of these changes; I feel like whoever is crafting this game understands what made old Fantasy tick but is also interested in evolving the game in ways that make sense and not just to encourage mod sales.
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Nov 21, 2023 14:03
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Cease to Hope posted:It's an artifact of a design philosophy that WHFB does not embrace at all. It not only adds an extra round of arithmetic to every single attack, but adds a spin on the dice that has to be undone at later steps of combat resolution. It's stupid pointless fiddling that's just here as catnip to people who resented AOS for existing, not for AOS's actual flaws (which are legion). I mean, literally yes: quote:The big news here is that we’re back to the classic Weapon Skill stat – which means higher WS is better, and that to work out each model’s roll to hit, you must compare your WS against theirs. Yes, the To Hit Chart is back and it’s as beardy as ever. TOW isn't a wargame, its a nostalgia generator
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Nov 21, 2023 14:50
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The outnumber bonus is now that you can lose more rounds of combat than your enemy, now that losing rounds isn't as decisive. I like that a lot more than an extra +1.
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Nov 21, 2023 15:45
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I'm hesitantly excited about most of what we are seeing about the old world. Changing all my models to the new base sizes is gonna be a tad annoying but I'm glad I held on to my horde of different fantasy armies. I will also support the game by buying books and any must have models that drop but I'd be lying if I said I was upset i don't have to buy most of the rank and file blocks again.
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Nov 21, 2023 16:12
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Tiny Chalupa posted:I'm hesitantly excited about most of what we are seeing about the old world. Changing all my models to the new base sizes is gonna be a tad annoying but I'm glad I held on to my horde of different fantasy armies. I’m 99% certain people will be selling movement trays to space our old bases like new ones to save people from redoing their armies. Hopefully that’ll happen because changing the bases for a whole orc and goblin army will be a pain in the rear end.
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Nov 21, 2023 16:16
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Yeah there are already people putting out free spacer stls designed to convert old smaller bases into new tray sizes.
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Nov 21, 2023 16:19
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I feel like at some point I'm just going to make my own movement trays with the proper frontage but with depressions for 25mm bases because like an idiot I rebased all of my old empire and high elf guys for Cities of Sigmar.
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Nov 21, 2023 16:30
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I'm really looking forward to rebasing my Dark Elves so that all their loving crossbows will line up for a change. (Plus I have gotten much better at basing and looking at them makes me sad.)
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Nov 21, 2023 17:05
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I've got a big pile of custom made galvanized steel movement trays for my magnetized bases, and if those tray sizes wind up being useful that'd be great and if they're not then I may wind up making custom trays, 3d printed or otherwise. If I play this game. I'm interested but definitely not sold on it yet.
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Nov 21, 2023 17:35
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Leperflesh posted:I've got a big pile of custom made galvanized steel movement trays for my magnetized bases, and if those tray sizes wind up being useful that'd be great and if they're not then I may wind up making custom trays, 3d printed or otherwise. If I play this game. I'm interested but definitely not sold on it yet. can we get a pic of these kickass sounding trays
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Nov 21, 2023 19:07
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:can we get a pic of these kickass sounding trays   dude's site is still up and it looks like he still makes & sells them, cool http://shogunminiatures.com/shogunminjaturessteeltrays.html these are the "flanged" ones. They're not sharp edged, he deburrs them, the flanges make them less flimsy and they feel good and solid. As you can see you can use wet erase markers on them too, which is sometimes very useful. e. I don't think his prices have changed in 10 years either, wow Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Nov 21, 2023 |
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Nov 21, 2023 19:29
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Leperflesh posted:I've got a big pile of custom made galvanized steel movement trays for my magnetized bases, and if those tray sizes wind up being useful that'd be great and if they're not then I may wind up making custom trays, 3d printed or otherwise. If I play this game. I'm interested but definitely not sold on it yet. Leperflesh posted:
These are actually fire. I've actually used this guy before, he's awesome.
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Nov 21, 2023 20:48
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 These Sisters have been sitting on my desk taunting me for like a week now. I want the pastel blue with whites and yellow highlights, but I'm not really sold on this. Considering repainting the bodysuit as pale yellow and the armor as metallic blue-gray?
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Nov 21, 2023 23:42
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StashAugustine posted:
The one on our left has an excellent Judge Dredd vibe. Pants and headpieces could be same color for simplification?
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Nov 21, 2023 23:46
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Wait, what is going to be the new infantry standard size in TOW? I've been dragging my old fantasy armies with me for years now in the hope of finding a crew to play 6th Ed. with again, but if I have to rebase everything for TOW I'm going to be real ornery about it!
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Nov 22, 2023 01:51
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Everything on 20mm is going up to (at least) 25mm. Some (not all) cavalry are getting larger bases. That said, the game will still work with old basing but not in "official" tournaments that most people will never come within miles of. That's literally all that's been confirmed. One could probably extrapolate from the AoS base sizes, but it's safer to just wait for everything else.
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Nov 22, 2023 02:00
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Exactly, as someone said, it is a hobby unto itself. If you are in to it then it compliments wargaming beautifully. If your hobby is wargaming you may find that getting into printing is akin to getting into testicular tortion in terms of fun and satisfaction.  
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Nov 22, 2023 02:12
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Syrnn posted:Wait, what is going to be the new infantry standard size in TOW? I've been dragging my old fantasy armies with me for years now in the hope of finding a crew to play 6th Ed. with again, but if I have to rebase everything for TOW I'm going to be real ornery about it! People are already creating spacers so that you can just slot your old models into new movement trays designed around 25mm bases so almost no modifications should be required if you have access to a 3D printer or know someone with one.
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Nov 22, 2023 02:41
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Syrnn posted:Wait, what is going to be the new infantry standard size in TOW? I've been dragging my old fantasy armies with me for years now in the hope of finding a crew to play 6th Ed. with again, but if I have to rebase everything for TOW I'm going to be real ornery about it! They're also selling trays again. You really only """need""" to be on one tray or anudda
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Nov 22, 2023 02:42
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Der Waffle Mous posted:I feel like at some point I'm just going to make my own movement trays with the proper frontage but with depressions for 25mm bases because like an idiot I rebased all of my old empire and high elf guys for Cities of Sigmar. They only come in 5x2 and 5x4 variants so you'd have to get creative for some TOW formations, but Renedra makes trays with 25mm depressions for Oathmark and the like.
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Nov 22, 2023 05:28
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