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Endorph posted:ff8 is if anything an exception in the series. ff6 doesnt even give you espers until like 10 hours in Well yeah, FF6's combat sucks too and for basically the same reasons!
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Nov 22, 2023 16:38
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The key issue with 13 is that whatever promise the combat had, it takes too long to get there. And however cutting-edge the visuals were, it came at the expense of the things people like in RPGs: level-design, hubs, mini-games, exploration, NPCs... Extremely linearity is welcome in 10 hour games like Devil May Cry or Portal, not in 40 hour adventures. Inspector Gesicht fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Nov 22, 2023 |
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Nov 22, 2023 16:38
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Inspector Gesicht posted:The key issue with 13 is that whatever promise the combat had, it takes too long to get there. And however cutting-edge the visuals were, it came at the expense of the things people like in RPGs: level-design, hubs, mini-games, exploration, NPCs... I think the problem here is that it ignores that at the time FF13 was in development, FFX had been a smash success and FF12 had been a bit of a dud, and at the time it was a very vocal complaint about their minigames and how much they sucked. People can talk about how FFX is different but it was basically a linear path forward and there was a time when "Chocobo Racing" or "Blitzball" were basically treated as bad language. Obviously things have started to shift backwards with people excited about weird minigames and stuff but there was a period where they were considered a great crime and you'd have people talking about how lovely JRPGs are because they keep making you collect eggs or snowboard instead of playing the game.
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Nov 22, 2023 16:42
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The linearity crap I feel is always overblown. No one gave FF10 poo poo for being a straight line.
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Nov 22, 2023 16:43
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ImpAtom posted:How is that different from most other FF games where your first few dungeons don't give you access to poo poo? You have multiple dungeons in FF5 before your first set of crystals! Its like 30 minutes to the first crystal in ff5
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Nov 22, 2023 16:45
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FFX's campaign is terrific, but every sidequest is utterly terrible.
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Nov 22, 2023 16:46
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No Dignity posted:Well yeah, FF6's combat sucks too and for basically the same reasons! No 6s combat sucks for the same reason 13-2's sucks. It's been made so even comatose gamers could clear it because basically every single thing you get can easily clear even the hardest fights in the game. It's just too easy and too simple. Edgar alone clears fights on 1-2 commands basically until the WoR. Getting magic just makes it worse. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Nov 22, 2023 |
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Nov 22, 2023 16:46
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People critiqued the linearity of FFX for the time but you have to differentiate some people, who in large enough amounts will complain about literally everything, from the predominant critical view of the work.
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Nov 22, 2023 16:46
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babypolis posted:Its like 30 minutes to the first crystal in ff5 It is barely more than that to get the Crystarium in XIII though?
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Nov 22, 2023 16:49
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13 is good, simple as
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Nov 22, 2023 16:49
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Snow did nothing wrong...
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Nov 22, 2023 16:49
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:No 6s combat sucks for the same reason 13-2's sucks. It's been made so even comatose games could clear it because basically every single thing you get can easily clear even the hardest fights in the game. It's just too easy and too simple. Edgar alone clears fights on 1-2 commands basically until the WoR. That's basically what I meant lol
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Nov 22, 2023 16:57
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The Zodiac Age fixes the major faults with XII's gameplay, but there's nothing that could be done with the story straight up evaporating after the halfway point (Bergan fight).
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Nov 22, 2023 17:00
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Barudak posted:I heard from folks that worked on a very, very high-metacritic title that the number of players who realistically had any hope of reading text boxes instead of slam skipping them was astonishingly low. didn't you once admit you skip basically every cutscene you can in some games, even on your first time through a game? I might be thinking of someone else but if not, this is a funny juxtaposition to me anyway I have heard the same from a lot of devs, an acquaintance of mine works for an outside QA company that does a ton of playtesting and tracks all kinds of metrics in the process, they work on a lot of mid-level and indie games and apparently on some tests the average time before a text box is skipped is faster than the vast majority of people can read, and correlates directly with players self-reporting that the game mechanics aren't clear, lol
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Nov 22, 2023 17:03
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No Dignity posted:That's basically what I meant lol No its not. You quoted a post saying "Ff6 doesn't unlock everything for a long time" and said that's why it's bad. What I said had nothing to do with that. Even if magic was open from the start the game would still have the same issues where magic is largely pointless because everything is so poorly tuned. Which isn't an issue 13 has, their fight design is over tuned if anything if you want to clear fights fast/get high ratings. The issue of being so undertuned they're piss easy and brainless is the fault 13 2 has, which is the one you said is the good one. You're trying to swap your argument here. And both versions of it are dumb as heck.
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Nov 22, 2023 17:04
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ImpAtom posted:It is barely more than that to get the Crystarium in XIII though? I don’t remember what that is i just remember being bored out of mind for 20-30 hours
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Nov 22, 2023 17:04
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Ibram Gaunt posted:The linearity crap I feel is always overblown. No one gave FF10 poo poo for being a straight line. After discovering the Jecht Sphere in Macalania, you can immediately go all the way back to Besaid. You will find Guado on the Highroad and other locations talking about the upcoming marriage of Yuna and Seymour, as well as other NPCs discussing various "updates" in the world. In short, you can at any time just stop progressing the story and go do Blitzball or explore a town or two. There's nothing to do in XIII except go forward, have fights, and watch cutscenes.
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Nov 22, 2023 17:05
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ImpAtom posted:FF 1 and 2 start you off pretty much equipped because of the kind of game they are. FF3 isn't far behind. Just to come back to this, I think the sticking point is that at least most of these games have engaging openings that quickly establish stakes and get you moving in the plot, so even if the openings are mechanically simple you're engages in the story. FF13 does an absolutely awful job at establishing who its cast are or what they're doing, you just have this endless action scene constantly jumping between perspectives that doesn't really explain any of the things that are happening until well after the fact
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Nov 22, 2023 17:05
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NikkolasKing posted:After discovering the Jecht Sphere in Macalania, you can immediately go all the way back to Besaid. You will find Guado on the Highroad and other locations talking about the upcoming marriage of Yuna and Seymour, as well as other NPCs discussing various "updates" in the world. In short, you can at any time just stop progressing the story and go do Blitzball or explore a town or two. moving forward and backward on a completely straight line doesnt make it less straight lol
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Nov 22, 2023 17:09
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:No its not. You quoted a post saying "Ff6 doesn't unlock everything for a long time" and said that's why it's bad. It's the same issue of the game lacking real mechanics for way too long, except in FF6 auto-battle is sometimes called auto-crossbow and other times firey dance. It's not a one to one comparison but it's like the same root issue of an extended prologue where you don't even have to engage with the game even a little bit to trivially win Ibram Gaunt posted:The linearity crap I feel is always overblown. No one gave FF10 poo poo for being a straight line. At least at my school everyone was down on it for it's linearity and lack of world map at the time. I think history has looked more kindly on it because everything else about the game is pretty good and FF13 has shown has much worse ot could be, but I think it was a common criticism on release No Dignity fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Nov 22, 2023 |
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Nov 22, 2023 17:09
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https://twitter.com/OMORI_GAME/status/1727341175911198780?s=20 One of the GOAT modern RPGs is getting a manga adaptation. Game on! 
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Nov 22, 2023 17:10
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No Dignity posted:Just to come back to this, I think the sticking point is that at least most of these games have engaging openings that quickly establish stakes and get you moving in the plot, so even if the openings are mechanically simple you're engages in the story. But... it does? Like most of them present either their actual motivation or their faked actual motivation?
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Nov 22, 2023 17:16
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Something about not paying a sex robot is how 13 starts, as I recall.
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Nov 22, 2023 17:18
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NikkolasKing posted:After discovering the Jecht Sphere in Macalania, you can immediately go all the way back to Besaid. You will find Guado on the Highroad and other locations talking about the upcoming marriage of Yuna and Seymour, as well as other NPCs discussing various "updates" in the world. In short, you can at any time just stop progressing the story and go do Blitzball or explore a town or two. Soyfacing as I go back to buy my armor to slot auto-everything into before returning to the monster arena menu and dying to a cactuar for several more hours to get enough AP to fill out my grid. ImpAtom posted:But... it does? Like most of them present either their actual motivation or their faked actual motivation? Wondering who the hell Snow is why Lightning and Hope hate him so much. Kild fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Nov 22, 2023 |
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Nov 22, 2023 17:19
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ImpAtom posted:I think the problem here is that it ignores that at the time FF13 was in development, FFX had been a smash success and FF12 had been a bit of a dud ff12 did about as well as 10 did though
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Nov 22, 2023 17:19
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No Dignity posted:
Again, I think this is more a failure of your reading than it is the game's. It lays their motivations on pretty heavy handed in those cutscenes that make up the opening stretch except for Vanille, who's entire arc is she's lying and acting chipper to try and push away the guilt of her existence dalning an entire town to a death camp train.
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Nov 22, 2023 17:21
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Dude had a bird in his afro
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Nov 22, 2023 17:22
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NFmP4fVBqA
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Nov 22, 2023 17:23
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The Colonel posted:ff12 did about as well as 10 did though At launch it sold a little under a million less in Japan than X did and while numbers are hard to find for the US it doesn't seem to have sold more. Obviously now with re-releases and updates and all sorts of stuff you can't really determine how well it's aged in terms of sales. (Especially since X and X2 are now bundled together permanently.)
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Nov 22, 2023 17:25
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I dunno why folks are so obsessed with sales. My favorite example to go to will always be MGS2 and 3 because it demonstrates how sales do not in any way translate to popular appreciation or impact. (MGS2 sold way more than 3. MGS2 was also viciously despised while 3 was universally beloved) The cultural impct of a work is far more important, and FFX has always, always been way more popular than FFXII. It ws an instant classic.
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Nov 22, 2023 17:28
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I love FF13. Its combat is very fun and the characters are appealing. Also it runs great on the Steam Deck. What gets me about it is, they have this cool-as-heck concept of "focuses" where the characters have to accomplish a goal or become a monster, and the goal is presented just as an image. As a story premise and as a potential gameplay device, this is amazing. And the game - not the story, but the game - does absolutely nothing with this. Seems like a waste of a great concept. Imagine if the player was given focuses as part of the game, and got rewarded for actually figuring out the goal - or "punished" by becoming monstrous (but also getting monster abilities or stat boosts)?
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Nov 22, 2023 17:28
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I don't care how well FF12 sold, I hate it and it sucks.
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Nov 22, 2023 17:29
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Clarste posted:I don't care how well FF12 sold, I hate it and it sucks. This
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Nov 22, 2023 17:31
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NikkolasKing posted:I dunno why folks are so obsessed with sales. My favorite example to go to will always be MGS2 and 3 because it demonstrates how sales do not in any way translate to popular appreciation or impact. (MGS2 sold way more than 3. MGS2 was also viciously despised while 3 was universally beloved) sales numbers are wack because they are often an incomplete picture but you in particular strike me as someone who will use the nebulous shroud of cultural impact simply as a way to dress up your opinions in the veneer of fact
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Nov 22, 2023 17:31
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ff12 is also good, actually
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Nov 22, 2023 17:31
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Again, I think this is more a failure of your reading than it is the game's. It lays their motivations on pretty heavy handed in those cutscenes that make up the opening stretch except for Vanille, who's entire arc is she's lying and acting chipper to try and push away the guilt of her existence dalning an entire town to a death camp train. Doesn't Snow's whole deal only come to light during the flashback on the crystalised lake, which is several hours in? And even if it's on purpose Vanille just being there with no context is weird, I don't think anyone even questions why she's there? And the whole opening scenario with PSICOM doing a pogrom and the Fal'Cie feels very poorly told, you barely have an idea of who these people are, where you are or what the consequences of any of this will be.
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Nov 22, 2023 17:33
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Lightning Returns is easily the best of the FF13 series despite selling the least.
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Nov 22, 2023 17:33
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FF12 is the only final fantasy game where i'd zone out for a half hour or so and then realize I don't remember why im going where im going and what goal im trying to accomplish. i didn't end up hating the game or anything but it was a bit hard to follow
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Nov 22, 2023 17:33
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it's a moot point in the end because there's never actually been a final fantasy game that was received badly enough for square enix not to give it 20 years of remasters. as much arguing as you can do over it there's not exactly a tales of the tempest where a game came out so badly it was effectively disowned, every single one of these games has found a niche
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Nov 22, 2023 17:34
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No Dignity posted:Doesn't Snow's whole deal only come to light during the flashback on the crystalised lake, which is several hours in? And even if it's on purpose Vanille just being there with no context is weird, I don't think anyone even questions why she's there? And the whole opening scenario with PSICOM doing a pogrom and the Fal'Cie feels very poorly told, you barely have an idea of who these people are, where you are or what the consequences of any of this will be. Snow "I am trying to be a hero and stop the Purge" is front and center and he actively starts calling for Serah as soon as they start to approach the Vestige. Vanille is, as far as she presents, just someone being purged who happened to get caught up in things. This is literally the exact same situation as Hope. Also like, you are explained the consequences in the first ten minutes. "Better to die than get sent to Pulse. It's hell without the brimstone." Everyone is calling it the purge but the announcements which are framing it as a genuine willing act on those being purged (overcut of footage of them being slaughtered.)
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Nov 22, 2023 17:35
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