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Sacrifice doesn't have one big interconnected world (is that really even necessary) but different maps themselves are, various movement options unlock progress, plenty of chance to backtrack. So even if the premise is more Monster hunter it's still similar enough to Sanctuary.
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Nov 21, 2023 09:28
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I bounced off salt and sanctuary, it felt like it controlled strangely to me. Blasphemous 1 ruled though. Blasphemous 2 was decent
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Nov 21, 2023 10:13
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Puckanas posted:So, how does The Last Faith stack up against similar games like Blasphemous 1 and 2 and, I suppose, Salt and Sanctuary? Worse than all 3 by far. If you want something good go with Bloodstained, Ender Lilies, or Timespinner. And if you've played all of them...just replay them lol. Even Death's Gambit was better. Also they're not quite metroidvanias....but I've found that Dead or School and Astlibra both scratched the same itch that vanias do. Gerrund_ing fucked around with this message at 10:55 on Nov 21, 2023 |
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Nov 21, 2023 10:50
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Arkham Asylum (sequels not as much) is the quintessential example of a 3D Metroidvania aside from the Prime series itself.
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Nov 21, 2023 15:38
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How I wish Vigil: The longest night would be added to Steam again so I could keep recommending it and maybe get one other person besides me to play it. But last I checked the developers were still in court battle with the publishers for removing the game one-sidedly (from what I understand, it is a case of a taiwanese dev team and a chinese publisher) and there's no update on anything positive happening getting the game back for purchase, even independently.
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Nov 21, 2023 16:16
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Impermanent posted:It's literally 2d dark souls. It's a meteoidvania. Dark souls is a 3d metroidvania
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Nov 21, 2023 17:27
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dark souls is not a metroidvania, or else every 90s FPS with keycards is a metroidvania
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Nov 21, 2023 17:51
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Dark Souls is way more like a classic Castlevania, where its all about precision and learning patterns. As obnoxious as it is to argue the definition of metroidvania, there really does have to be more to it than just "a game where you can backtrack."
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Nov 21, 2023 18:16
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Haak DLC date (free update):quote:The new DLC for HAAK - [Black and White] is set to be officially launched on November 29th at 07:00 PM! This new DLC is a free update and introduces an entirely new map. In [Black and White], various new mysteries and complex levels await your challenge, and the story about Haak's brother Baak will gradually be revealed.
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Nov 21, 2023 18:31
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TeaJay posted:How I wish Vigil: The longest night would be added to Steam again so I could keep recommending it and maybe get one other person besides me to play it. +1 vigil lover over here. Just a massive massive game.
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Nov 21, 2023 18:38
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Serephina posted:If Zelda1 wasn't a 2d metroidvania (lol), then DS isn't a 3d one. It was though. The whole question of whether keys count for the whole Metroidvania formula is understandable; mobility upgrades are the more fun and more organic way of opening up paths. Some upgrades do sometimes seem to be just glorified keys because they can only be activated or useful in specific contexts, which takes a lot of the fun out of them. But the original Legend of Zelda has more than just keys. There's the stepladder which can cross gaps, the raft that can take you on the water, the candle and magic rod that can burn down bushes, and the power bracelet. Those are all necessary for finding other dungeons out on the overworld, so areas you may have once visited you now have new ways to explore. Fuzz posted:Arkham Asylum (sequels not as much) is the quintessential example of a 3D Metroidvania aside from the Prime series itself. It definitely follows the formula of a Metroidvania, but I always feel like it lacks a bit of the vibe from how you can end up following the critical path of the game so tightly without ever wandering around. If you're not paying attention and stuck in detective mode, you may even miss the fact that you're revisiting areas that change over time. But the fact that I can just get really in the zone while playing Arkham Asylum just speaks to the appeal and quality of the game's other mechanics. Some people also make a big deal over non-linearity being necessary for a proper Metroidvania, although that's less common, and many famous games that evoke Metroidvanias end up fairly linear when you pull back to look at them.
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Nov 21, 2023 18:42
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The 7th Guest posted:dark souls is not a metroidvania, or else every 90s FPS with keycards is a metroidvania It's not a Metroidvania in the literal sense but it definitely is built upon a similar philosophy of structure (to a degree that Demon's Souls, with its discrete stages, is not.) I'd say Super Metroid and SotN are definitely within its pedigree. The problems arise when you try to then do what TLF is doing and work backwards to incorporate Souls like elements into the 2D format without really studying why those elements work (having a 3D space to manage enemies in rather than a 2D plane makes a humongous change in how you approach kiting enemies to where you want them or putting space between yourself and them, for example)
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Nov 21, 2023 19:30
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Honestly the new Fallen Order and Jedi Survivor games are also great examples.
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Nov 21, 2023 20:30
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Last Faith: I've been doing some clean-up now that I (believe) have all the movement abilities, finding some hidden stuff and managed to do that blood chalice quest in Osseus Fortress. (those challenge rooms didn't feel quite as bad as the first time I found 'em...) and as a reward I got the ultimate DEX weapon, The Rift of Blood. That thing smacks even without properly upgraded (I ran out of money!) I also ran into a friendly ghost who is leading me to various places to unlock some stuff I can only assume is somehow tied to different endings. I haven't actually found the rare prototype that lets you upgrade past +8 yet so I assume it's somewhere in the last area I have left to explore The Cathedral.
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Nov 22, 2023 00:00
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I guess the way 3D games developed, there may have been a bit of convergent evolution towards the metroidvania model in other genres. It wasn't really until the mid-2000s that people started circling back around to Super Metroid and Symphony of the Night to say that they were something special and different, and then I think it was the indie sphere copying those games' style independently to solidify it as a genre. In that time, 3D games developed their own collectathon format that was dominant for a while that used a lot of the same idea of upgrading your character's abilities. With 3D platformers, traversal was the fun part, so when upgrading traversal is a thing, locking content behind those upgrades will be a thing. The games in the legacy of Doom already had a history of elaborate levels to explore with keys to find. 3D Zelda reproduced the main gameplay formula of Link to the Past, which is very Metroidvaniash even if it isn't considered such. 3D games at large did eventually leave those gameplay types behind as platformers fell from prominence and were replaced by open worlds and shooters and action games that didn't worry about traversal in the same way. And then there was the indie Metroidvania boom, and now anything that goes back to focusing on 3D platforming with spiraling worlds and traversal upgrades, people see Metroidvania in that. Dark Souls is the only one I think clearly has a Castlevania influence, things like Arkham Asylum and Jedi: Fallen Order I think are less clear (Fallen Order kinda gives me collectathon platformer vibes because he has a little buddy backpack).
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Nov 22, 2023 00:05
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I’m playing Wario Land games now, 3 is very metroidvania-y
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Nov 22, 2023 00:15
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TeaJay posted:Last Faith: That weapon is awesome, I was very tempted to pivot my build to use it, but it would have taken a few hours to grind out the upgrades so it wasn't worth it. I'm exploring what I imagine is the last area now, and I really hope the devs take feedback to heart and make some adjustments to the game, because I've actually really been enjoying my time with it.
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Nov 22, 2023 00:41
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Fatty posted:Don't think it exists. The bulk of the stuff from the kickstarter trailer didn't make it into the final game. Oh man, if I bought this for a boss fight that doesn't exist, and it still appears on the main steam page in a prominent screenshot, I will be pretty vexed. Let's see... there are videos on YoutTube of a secret Harbinger of Nightmare fight that looks like it's a less cool looking version of the hydra from the trailer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5vDEg-qyrY I guess I will call it half-delivered. Hydra is blobbier, less colorful, you fight it in a swamp instead of a cool rainswept tower.
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Nov 22, 2023 00:57
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avoraciopoctules posted:Oh man, if I bought this for a boss fight that doesn't exist, and it still appears on the main steam page in a prominent screenshot, I will be pretty vexed. Let's see... there are videos on YoutTube of a secret Harbinger of Nightmare fight that looks like it's a less cool looking version of the hydra from the trailer. I guess I will call it half-delivered. Hydra is blobbier, less colorful, you fight it in a swamp instead of a cool rainswept tower. yeah, that fight was super disappointing when I found it, it wasn’t particularly difficult or interesting. It seems crazy that it was such a striking part of the kickstarter video
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Nov 22, 2023 01:09
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Colour me surprised, beat the game and didn't encounter that boss. Found a hidden boss in the frozen area, and it just felt like a reskin of an Edwynn, so I kind of assumed all other secret bosses would be that low level of effort. Is it something to do with the torches you can light in the city graveyard? Didn't find all of those.
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Nov 22, 2023 02:21
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Fatty posted:Colour me surprised, beat the game and didn't encounter that boss. Found a hidden boss in the frozen area, and it just felt like a reskin of an Edwynn, so I kind of assumed all other secret bosses would be that low level of effort. It was in the basement of the manor area, there's a multi limb NPC that you can talk to as part of someones quest line, that eventually let's you buy a mask for 10K, and the mask lets you speak to a ghost that leads you to the door that leads to the boss. I think you also need the glasses item? I'm not totally sure. I think those torches just got me a weapon, it wasn't all that impressive. Just finished, got some kind of ending? I have absolutely no idea what was happening the entire time, and ultimately I think I don't care. I will give them credit for the presentation of that last fight, I thought it was pretty cool. Might eventually do a second trip through the game to make an instinct heavy character, since I stopped using guns early on. I didn't find all the unborn things, which I assume would have given me the last crest I needed, but I have no idea what that locked me out of Game's good but I think it has real potential to turn into something pretty cool. If nothing else it's made me want to go back to some other games I'd bounced off of, like Death's Gambit and Blasphemous.
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Nov 22, 2023 02:39
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I definitely think that Last Faith is encouraging me to go back to my unfinished saves on Death's Gambit and Afterimage. I was having more fun with the gameplay of both of those, and though I don't regret playing this game it is definitely giving me a renewed appreciation for the mechanical polish present in many competitors. Still, I am planning to get to some kind of endpoint before I wrap Last Faith up. Those traversal abilities in the late game look really cool, and I'm definitely still having fun in mirror manor. The ice level will probably be the real test. I still haven't figured out how to access it, but from what people are saying it definitely sounds like it might be a pretty unpleasant time.
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Nov 22, 2023 03:26
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avoraciopoctules posted:I definitely think that Last Faith is encouraging me to go back to my unfinished saves on Death's Gambit and Afterimage. I was having more fun with the gameplay of both of those, and though I don't regret playing this game it is definitely giving me a renewed appreciation for the mechanical polish present in many competitors. Still, I am planning to get to some kind of endpoint before I wrap Last Faith up. Those traversal abilities in the late game look really cool, and I'm definitely still having fun in mirror manor. They're not as bad as it seemed at first, I think it's just easy to stumble into them early, and it makes them seem really obnoxious. With a decent amount of health and some weapon upgrades I found it fairly manageable.
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Nov 22, 2023 03:31
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icantfindaname posted:I’m playing Wario Land games now, 3 is very metroidvania-y It really is; what an underrated gem. I replay it every few years and can still hear the boss music (and the cheers from the soccer boss).
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Nov 22, 2023 04:02
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Crystal Lake Witch posted:
Here's some ending spoilers: If you took the throne, that's a bad ending. If you had the left eye, you get a new boss battle and a better ending. If you have both eyes, you get yet another boss battle after that and the true ending. Also you should definitely play Blasphemous, both of them.
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Nov 22, 2023 05:01
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fatsleepycat posted:It really is; what an underrated gem. I replay it every few years and can still hear the boss music (and the cheers from the soccer boss). Going back to the dreaded genre delimitation chat, it makes me think that maybe the basic divide is between Nintendo R&D1-vanias and Igavanias. Going by mobygames it seems like much of the same team that did metroid 2 and super metroid went on to do the wario games
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Nov 22, 2023 09:05
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The 7th Guest posted:Haak DLC date (free update): Haak is very good
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Nov 22, 2023 09:59
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icantfindaname posted:Going back to the dreaded genre delimitation chat, it makes me think that maybe the basic divide is between Nintendo R&D1-vanias and Igavanias. Going by mobygames it seems like much of the same team that did metroid 2 and super metroid went on to do the wario games It's a fairly simple explanation: Most of the classic Metroidvanias are really not all that difficult. Metroid 1 and 2 are both difficult via jank, but starting with Super Metroid, the overall difficulty tanks. Same with SOTN and later Igavanias; you can basically face tank most things, and the necessary skill level is pretty low. The closest thing to difficulty is self-imposed challenges. Igavanias are not Dark Souls-esque. They were always designed to be fairly breezy combat-wise. Trying to ape their design, while replacing the low stakes combat and varied arsenal, doesn't quite work because those are vital parts of the formula. You have to be careful, and thoughtful. Hollow Knight and Blasphemous do it pretty well, but then you get games where the systems are too complicated, the combat feels like a chore, and the entire game just hates you. That's not a 'vania, no matter how much of an interconnected map with relics and poo poo it is. That's just bad game design.
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Nov 22, 2023 10:50
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Kurui Reiten posted:It's a fairly simple explanation: Most of the classic Metroidvanias are really not all that difficult. Metroid 1 and 2 are both difficult via jank, but starting with Super Metroid, the overall difficulty tanks. Same with SOTN and later Igavanias; you can basically face tank most things, and the necessary skill level is pretty low. The closest thing to difficulty is self-imposed challenges. This reminds me of one of the biggest bummers about all of the soulslike metroidvanias recently. One thing that I really like about a good metroidvania is how if you go for 100% you eventually get so powerful that whatever challenge the game has basically goes away. You just don't get that in a lot of these games, and that's sad. It feels like there's no mechanical reward for doing a lot of exploration sometimes.
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Nov 22, 2023 12:26
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The Souls-like aesthetic is getting pretty played out too. Boss called 'Armonius, Watcher of the Void'? gently caress off I want to fight a giant cyborg crab
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Nov 22, 2023 12:33
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Gerrund_ing posted:Dead or School I’d never heard of this one so I looked it up and the store page gives massive “R18 patch offsite” vibes.
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Nov 22, 2023 13:34
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Tiramisu posted:I’d never heard of this one so I looked it up and the store page gives massive “R18 patch offsite” vibes. The store page gives that impression but there's really no fanservice beyond what they show there. It's a surprisingly good game that's going to disappoint anyone who's looking for porn.
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Nov 22, 2023 15:32
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Kurui Reiten posted:Igavanias are not Dark Souls-esque. They were always designed to be fairly breezy combat-wise. Trying to ape their design, while replacing the low stakes combat and varied arsenal, doesn't quite work because those are vital parts of the formula. I would actually contest that. While you can definitely get to the point where combat becomes trivial with the leveling system, and definitely the games are easier than classic Castlevania, Symphony of the Night is actually fairly difficult to begin with. The way the game works, you'll get stuck maybe once or twice and then rapidly level enough that most of the enemies in the area are no longer an issue, and then it can be smooth sailing until the late game when enemies get a bunch of insta-kill attacks, but I think you're still likely to get stuck. The main challenge of Castelvania isn't really individual enemies or platform challenges, it's attrition. That's why there are so many long corridors full of enemies that you have to steadily keep beating, because if you slip up a few times, there goes a big chunk of health. Metroid 1 had a similar kind of endurance challenge, because all the corridors were so very long. Dark Souls does evoke some of that, especially with the beginning levels, where most enemies aren't very powerful, but if you don't manage them you'll quickly get overwhelmed. The games even sprinkle early enemies around lategame areas to remind you how powerful you've gotten, although the games have their own ethos about preventing players from getting too far ahead of the difficulty curve.
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Nov 22, 2023 16:51
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SlothfulCobra posted:[...] Castlevania, Symphony of the Night is actually fairly difficult to begin with. [...] I cheesed this whole game with the throwing knife the first time, very few enemies have more health than you have ammo at any given section. (I also just sat and killed mermen for like 10 minutes at the beginning.)
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Nov 22, 2023 17:33
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There's a couple of bits early game where if you go the wrong way those Cthulhu looking monsters will murder you but that lasts about as long as it takes to get some decent gear or you stumble across one of the 20 different ways to break the game.
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Nov 22, 2023 17:40
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No Dignity posted:The Souls-like aesthetic is getting pretty played out too. Boss called 'Armonius, Watcher of the Void'? gently caress off I want to fight a giant cyborg crab Have I got the game for you then https://youtu.be/k3sAJWQGX7g?si=J35fJy-uR5ae2AH_
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Nov 22, 2023 18:03
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No Dignity posted:The Souls-like aesthetic is getting pretty played out too. Boss called 'Armonius, Watcher of the Void'? gently caress off I want to fight a giant cyborg crab Haven't confirmed whether there are cyborg crabs, but would Another Crabs Treasure count? Perhaps more souls-like than metroidvania, but hey, they rub shoulders constantly.
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Nov 22, 2023 18:32
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Last Faith: The last boss well not exactly but true ending boss Medeya is really annoying for the wrong reasons, main frustration being that she takes SO much damage and while dealing it you basically have to constantly dodging their attacks and they have a skill to conjure an ice shield which nullifies damage as well. I have no idea if this character was mentioned at any point or is she a real asspull in the sense of FFIX Necron. Anyway I'm struggling with her, even though my +10 Reaper does about 350 per hitr on her. If there's a cheese or some damage type she takes a lot from, I'm all ears, otherwise I just have to git gudder. In comparison, both endgame bosses before her - Laddak and the ladies - were WAY easier if only because they didn't have a huge HP pool. The worst part is when she shields herself (I dunno what I'm meant to do, just hit her enough to drop it?) and starts doing those zips across the screen AND has the ice blocks spinning on the screen. Good luck dodging all that and getting hits on to drop the shield. Usually the zip catches me because the tell is kinda small and hard to see where it comes from. It's also annoying because when I jump over it, I fall down so slow she makes another zip so fast she hits me with it. I've gotten many times to the final 1/3th or so but can't finish her because there's just so much on the screen in the last phase to dodge. I went to the final stretch without collecting all the unborn thingies because I felt like I had gone through the game thoroughly and still missed like half, so I didn't want to start collecting them with a guide. This of course lead to missing one boss, but I did most other stuff, I think. And no I have no idea what's going on with the plot. I have already written some of my thoughts down and will post a huge wall of text if/when I finally finish the game. e: finally beat it, found a good tactic to be to start doing the scythe special when the boss did the ice rotation, following them along it doing constant damage TeaJay fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Nov 23, 2023 |
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Nov 23, 2023 19:17
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So I beat Last Faith. According to Steam it took me a bit over 22 hours. For comparison, here are numbers from other similar games: Blasphemous 23hrs Blasphemous 2 22 hrs Bloodstained 38 hrs (I really liked the crafting so extra is probably from there) Ender Lilies 20 hrs Lone Fungus 15 hrs Vigil: The longest night 16 hrs Salt & Sanctuary 13 hrs (is it really that short? Should I play it again) Salt & Sacrifice first run 38 hrs I feel like the length was pretty good, I did do a lot of optional stuff this time too but did start to feel a bit of a fatigue in the end so I didn't finish the last collection. First, would I recommend Last Faith? Yes I would, it's a good game. It has a lot of small annoyances and design choices I disagree with. But generally I enjoyed my time with it. Ice area sucked, I think we can all agree with that, but other areas were a lot better. The game is visually absolutely gorgeous.  I did find myself wanting some more optional areas and exploration. Maybe these games are going for a more streamlined experience now, since Blasphemous 2 did the same thing. But I always enjoy a SOTN like feeling where you reach an area which has no purpose to main progression and instead is just there to house some treasure and a neat boss. I guess Moonshade lake fits this description. Going through the list I noticed how many of these are just trops in metroidvanias. IMO we could definitely do without a lot of them. But game designers seem to be locked in a mindset that if you make a 'vania, you HAVE to have them. I mean what purpose does the stat allocation system have here? Do the weapons really need to have a Dark Souls-esque scaling? Couldn't finding a new weapon be a enough reward and then you could use it just fine? Hell, does even Dark Souls need that system? Couldn't leveling up simply boost all your stats? I guess they are going for replayability, but is it really there to begin with? Usually when I play this kind of game I go for the long haul, finding all secrets I can, beat the bosses, collect everything, I usually don't do additional runs. As for the plot: I followed it even less than in an average 'vania. At no point I had any idea who I was (apart from my name), what I was doing or why and why all the NPC's speak in cryptic darksoulsian dialogue. Maybe I skipped an important dialogue box by mistake, I dunno. Why I was eating all those hearts and what did it meant when it said "Promise broken". And then at the end the in a shocking twist the two women you helped throughout the game were actually evil! But why? "Don't ask any more questions, Tarnished/Bearer of the Curse/Undead one!" And then you fight them. And after that, you fight some other mystical being. I have no idea if she was mentioned previously, it's possible. At that point I was more like whatever. And the ending for a TRUE ENDING was very disappointing, just a few screens and not really much explained.  Like, WTF are you even saying?? Furthermore, is Lisa supposed to be this game's Hornet? Will she get her own DLC turned vaporware? It felt like I missed some lore about her character too. Most troubles I probably had in relation to my level was with Edwyn. On the level you fight him he's incredibly tough! I had a real problem with him constantly jumping on top of me, but others seemed to be in the mind that you can dodge that relatively easily, so maybe I was just unlucky. The Last Last boss was also a bit tough but mostly because the attempts took longer and they had a lot of health.  Pros: There's no penalty for dying. You don't lose a part of your healthbar, stamina etc. when you die. You do lose your nycrux (currency). But it's lenient in the sense that if you lose it in a challenge room, say, and it's near the door, you can tiptoe in, get the stuff and leave without engaging the room. Save points were always placed near a bossfight. There's no 3 minute runs of shame back to the boss through all the trash mobs you already killed a dozen times. Game looks absolutely gorgeous. The pixel art is top notch. Bosses were generally pretty fair and fun to fight. They have decent tells and generally it was my fault for taking damage. I believe someone better could ace a lot of them without any hits taken. There are plenty of different weapons and they are pretty fun to use. My favourite was the Severance reaper which carried me from midgame all the way to the end. It's ridiculously good. Exploring is fun. Cons: Too many bosses with two phases. Especially when the first phase is a pushover and basically a waste of time. Two of the three end bosses, both Laddak and the ladies. I was dreading for a second phase for the Last Last boss too... . They did the same with Blasphemous 2, though, where the toughest fight of the game had a waste of time first phase. If the only purpose of the boss's second phase is to transform, then just let us start the fight from there. Some really obnoxious challenge rooms. (A lot of them did feel quite a bit easier after leveling a good amount of myself and the weapon(s).) But on the level you find them they are likely the worst I've ever seen in terms of difficulty. Insta kill spikes. Even Blasphemous 2 moved away from this, enough said. Music was somewhat forgettable. I guess it fits the mood. Map looks kinda low res in comparison to the art. It also felt quite laggy to scroll. One annoying thing was also the lack of a mini map, and the fact that map didn't update fully, leaving annoying blanks which leave you wondering if there's something there or is it simply working as intended. Some architechtural choices. Often times you have no idea if you can make a drop and what's below you. You have to make a blind leap. Maybe someone considers this exciting gameplay. The Ice Area. It's just needlessly brutal, especially the first time around. OTOH it felt really good to return with the Reaper and mow all those spiders and annoying enemies down. Extra:  YES, the drat hydras are in the game!!!1 TeaJay fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Nov 23, 2023 |
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Nov 23, 2023 21:02
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I've recently started on Blasphemous 2 after picking it up in the current Steam sale. I ended up picking the sword at the start, but switching to the censer after picking that up as my second weapon. I jsut got to the spot where I assume I would have picked up the sword if I didn't at the start, and found an item that game +15% sword damage. Is this dependent on the starting weapon? (i.e. did I permanently miss out on a possible +15% damage to the censer?)
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Nov 23, 2023 23:01
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