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What thread is this?
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Nov 22, 2023 16:47
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Discendo Vox posted:What thread is this? It says at the top of the page. Look there and you can find out which thread you’re in at any given time.
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Nov 22, 2023 17:15
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It's not ethnic cleansing to teach someone a second language, their rights and responsibilities under law and a new trade. There was never a suppression of the Uyghur language or culture. It was not traditionalism that was suppressed, but Salafism introduced by returning Uyghur foreign fighters from Afghanistan in the 80s when drug problems in Xinjiang were at their height.
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Nov 22, 2023 18:30
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:It's not ethnic cleansing to teach someone a second language, their rights and responsibilities under law and a new trade. There was never a suppression of the Uyghur language or culture. It was not traditionalism that was suppressed, but Salafism introduced by returning Uyghur foreign fighters from Afghanistan in the 80s when drug problems in Xinjiang were at their height. There's literally an official policy of sinicization. China is doing population transfers of Han Chinese into Xinjiang and doing things like removing cultural elements like minarets from mosques. If that's not a suppression of culture I don't know what would be.
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Nov 22, 2023 18:39
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China bad
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Nov 22, 2023 18:42
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:It's not ethnic cleansing to teach someone a second language, their rights and responsibilities under law and a new trade. There was never a suppression of the Uyghur language or culture. It was not traditionalism that was suppressed, but Salafism introduced by returning Uyghur foreign fighters from Afghanistan in the 80s when drug problems in Xinjiang were at their height. Do Russia next.
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Nov 22, 2023 19:00
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NovemberMike posted:There's literally an official policy of sinicization. China is doing population transfers of Han Chinese into Xinjiang and doing things like removing cultural elements like minarets from mosques. If that's not a suppression of culture I don't know what would be. every Muslim can smell the bullshit whenever westerners crocodile tear cry over xinjiang, doing it in the Palestine thread during a active genocide though is extra snivelling and useless Israel and america are bombing minarets off mosques with everybody still inside them, nobody cares about China right now
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Nov 22, 2023 19:06
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skipmyseashells posted:every Muslim can smell the bullshit whenever westerners crocodile tear cry over xinjiang, doing it in the Palestine thread during a active genocide though is extra snivelling and useless What the gently caress are you even trying to say? I'm not the one that brought up China, if you don't want people talking about them go to the people that actually started the conversation.
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Nov 22, 2023 19:33
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Talking about China and how it is relevant to Israel/Palestine and the current conflict is fine. Even general comments about China as an analogy or base of comparison to I/P are fine for the most part, as well. But detailed discussions specifically about China should go to the China thread.
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Nov 22, 2023 19:45
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skipmyseashells posted:every Muslim can smell the bullshit whenever westerners crocodile tear cry over xinjiang, doing it in the Palestine thread during a active genocide though is extra snivelling and useless What mosques is the US bombing? The US isn't Israel. And opposing ethnic cleansing in Palestine doesn't give you a freebie to excuse it elsewhere even if China is doing it more with concentration camps than bombs.
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Nov 22, 2023 19:57
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The US providing bombs to Israel, and having John Kirby, Sabrina Singh, and company spout Israeli propaganda in response to criticism over how said bombs are used (while threatening anyone who tries to interfere, openly and directly), is not far from the US doing the bombing themselves. Hell, even with Ukraine, it's specified that they can't use those weapons to attack Russia -  because of the implication .With Israel, no restrictions on how to use those weapons. Nail Rat fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Nov 22, 2023 |
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Nov 22, 2023 20:08
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https://twitter.com/RitchieTorres/status/1727377846652346389?t=iIz_egAlvcuLoOb7IDXGig&s=19 Now we're to the point where Israeli supporters are straight up denying basic, well documented parts of the Israeli security apparatus
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Nov 22, 2023 21:04
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"Israel is as fictional as Star Wars"
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Nov 22, 2023 21:06
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rscott posted:https://twitter.com/RitchieTorres/status/1727377846652346389?t=iIz_egAlvcuLoOb7IDXGig&s=19 Perhaps he's trying to say that Israel has their own SDI?
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Nov 22, 2023 21:07
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rscott posted:https://twitter.com/RitchieTorres/status/1727377846652346389?t=iIz_egAlvcuLoOb7IDXGig&s=19 (See the top comment on that dumb tweet)
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Nov 22, 2023 21:12
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Killer robot posted:Momentum's been a big part of this too, Netanyahu riding the wave of popular rage among Israelis both to punish the Palestinians and to keep it from being directed at him instead. It's unlikely the Israeli right loses its appetite for bombing Palestinians while Palestinians continue to exist, but the "we can't stop now!" of the last month and a half of killing fades the moment it does stop. Doesn't guarantee that it won't continue or keep its intensity later, but that depends whether the anti-war people maintain enough pressure and take advantage of the time. This is a good point, yeah. Impossible to say how different internal factions might react to this and if anyone thinks it's time to move against Bibi. I also have to imagine this will strengthen all the remaining hostage families because if Israel could get this 50 released, why not the rest? Plus the fact that negotiations have managed to get this done, whilst six weeks of intense warfare hasn't rescued a single one, has to be giving pause to at least a handful of people. I hope.
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Nov 22, 2023 21:32
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Nail Rat posted:The US providing bombs to Israel, and having John Kirby, Sabrina Singh, and company spout Israeli propaganda in response to criticism over how said bombs are used (while threatening anyone who tries to interfere, openly and directly), is not far from the US doing the bombing themselves. It's worth noting that the US is holding up some arms transfers in concern about the current events, including ones that Israel are actually paying for. In particular, the US is holding up sales of rifles to Israel, for fear that Ben-Gvir is gonna use them to arm up settler pogroms. They've already negotiated a bunch of conditions on said sales for just that reason, but the sales are reportedly still being blocked out of concern that Ben-Gvir doesn't give a gently caress about the conditions and is just gonna do it anyway: https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-said-to-delay-shipment-of-weapons-for-security-squads-due-to-ben-gvirs-conduct/ quote:US said to delay shipment of weapons for security squads due to Ben Gvir’s conduct
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Nov 22, 2023 22:12
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I just don't understand why that is their red line, but carpet-bombing Gaza with US made bombs is A-OK. I 100% agree that the settler violence needs to stop, but it's just such a small issue compared to the tons and tons of innocents being killed in Gaza daily. It is also being reported that the hostage exchange won't begin until Friday https://twitter.com/BarakRavid/status/1727442649979007361?s=20
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Nov 22, 2023 23:24
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FlamingLiberal posted:I just don't understand why that is their red line, but carpet-bombing Gaza with US made bombs is A-OK. From what I've been seeing, people who really want to ignore Palestine are using it as evidence that Biden is fairly responding to criticism, and reporters are highlighting his settler criticism while ignoring the rest of the op-ed where he says he will continue to oppose any attempt at halting Israel's Gaza campaign. I can only assume it is a carefully triangulated bare minimum response to distract from his actual position.
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Nov 23, 2023 00:00
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Maybe it's the belief that state violence is inherently better than subcontracted state violence.
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Nov 23, 2023 00:14
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I don't think it's that hard, even if we accept the framing that the Biden admin doesn't care at all about Gaza civilians (which I think is iffy given current info on the temporary ceasefire). The US dislikes Hamas and also dislikes the Oct 7 raid, and has to at least act like Israeli retaliation is somewhat justified due in part to domestic political reasons. The US' explicitly preferred outcome remains a PA administration in Gaza, the PA was very obviously uninvolved in the raid, and the settlers in the West Bank have been horrible monsters for decades who constantly embarrass the US with one atrocity or other. Of course even the more realpolitik factions of the US government want the settlers to knock it off. Josef bugman posted:Maybe it's the belief that state violence is inherently better than subcontracted state violence. I mean, it kinda is, but I very much doubt that's the main or conscious reason Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Nov 23, 2023 |
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Nov 23, 2023 00:29
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Yeah, the important thing is that the US State Department is trying to treat Gaza as a discrete entity to the West Bank, with everything Israel does there being justified because it's run by a hostile government who committed an act of war against them. Using that war money to commit pogroms against a nominally neutral 'country' (we'll skip the giant can-o-worms that is the statehood of the West Bank) who are supposed to be taking over Gaza once the dust settles is no bueno.
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Nov 23, 2023 01:10
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Google Jeb Bush posted:I don't think it's that hard, even if we accept the framing that the Biden admin doesn't care at all about Gaza civilians (which I think is iffy given current info on the temporary ceasefire). The US dislikes Hamas and also dislikes the Oct 7 raid, and has to at least act like Israeli retaliation is somewhat justified due in part to domestic political reasons. Biden, more than the 'Biden administration' as a whole, is the primary driver of the exceptionally unconditioned support of Israel. That is his personal thing and it has been for ages. Other parts of the Biden administration have a range of feelings wrt what is happening, but they aren't the ones setting policy. Sullivan knows gently caress all about the region and is basically a wet rag in terms of directing policy in a way that might go against Biden (hell he infamously had his 5000 word essay on the region set to be published shortly after the attack in which he expounded on how the region was the quietest it has been in decades). Blinken makes some of the right noises about humanitarian stuff but has not been pushing for it in the way that the US can when it actually wants to make something happen. He spent 6 weeks chirping about a humanitarian pause before anything actually happened. quote:Of course even the more realpolitik factions of the US government want the settlers to knock it off. What are you basing this statement on and who are you referring to as 'realpolitik factions of the US government.' There's virtually zero pressure to this effect and the only thing that has come up recently was the US blocking a transfer of small arms that it expects will be distributed to Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Nov 23, 2023 |
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Nov 23, 2023 01:48
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Nail Rat posted:The US providing bombs to Israel, and having John Kirby, Sabrina Singh, and company spout Israeli propaganda in response to criticism over how said bombs are used (while threatening anyone who tries to interfere, openly and directly), is not far from the US doing the bombing themselves.
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Nov 23, 2023 02:08
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FlamingLiberal posted:I just don't understand why that is their red line, but carpet-bombing Gaza with US made bombs is A-OK. "A professional military causing some unfortunate collateral damage while crushing the unforgivably monstrous terrorist insurgents in a civilian area" is a framing that American authorities fundamentally accept as legitimate. After all, they used the same story quite a bit themselves in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Israeli bodycount is certainly higher than usual for something like that, but American leaders fundamentally trust the Israeli authorities to be honest and have good intentions, and are willing to write that off as careless mistakes. That may sound ridiculous, but the US managed to accidentally (or "accidentally") bomb a few hospitals too back in the War on Terror era. As long as Israel at least tries to maintain the pretense that they're solely targeting Hamas, top US leaders will let a lot of dead civilians slide, and Bibi and Gantz have a lot of practice at telling Americans what they expect to hear. On the other hand, Ben-Gvir barely even pretends his plans to arm the settlers are merely about self-defense and stopping terrorists. And even if he pretends, I'm not sure anyone would believe him - he's so openly racist that even the IDF refused to give him a gun, a rare accomplishment indeed. Moreover, his insistence that the PA are all terrorists that need to be destroyed is completely at odds with the US view that the PA are the good peaceful partner who should be placed in control of Gaza. On top of that, the US disapproves of the settlements (though not to the point of really doing anything about them) and regards them as an obstacle to peace. A bunch of random-rear end settler civilians from illegal settlements randomly taking potshots at Palestinians doesn't have even the slightest appearance of legitimacy, and the US doesn't want him pointlessly stirring up the West Bank.
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Nov 23, 2023 02:10
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Ukraine can't use its weapons to attack Russia because Russia has nuclear weapons. Hamas does not. Hamas isn’t a army or nation, why would they have nuclear weapons
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Nov 23, 2023 02:22
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https://twitter.com/IChotiner/status/1727460877946036313?t=k46ZGL2kZZvB8Shu1Cfkxw&s=19 A truly deranged interview with the head of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that I was surprised even got printed. This is the part that stuck out to me quote:Senator, you know as well as I do that Israel has hardly been generous with humanitarian assistance. You say that we have been asking them to do more, but why wouldn’t they just do this on their own? And then you have the statements from numerous Israeli leaders conflating Hamas members and Palestinian civilians, which has been happening at the highest levels of the Israeli government. That maybe suggests that we should be concerned about this, no? Which implies that despite all the talk about civilians and human shields, in reality the US had to step in to get them to even try to target Hamas rather than just shelling anyone they could find. CuddleCryptid fucked around with this message at 03:29 on Nov 23, 2023 |
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Nov 23, 2023 03:25
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I talked to one of my friends today who is both someone I absolutely trust, and is not a very political person in general. His benevolently naive take was "all these loving assholes on both sides need to stop killing each other, and the solution is one secular country where everyone gets the same rights and religion is prohibited from interacting with the law in any way." He's right. Without being a student of Raz Segal or Ilan Pappe or any of the other exceptionally studied people on either side of the conflict, he arrived at the same conclusion. It should be the mission of the international community to see it done, and we need to stop pretending there's another solution or a better solution.
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Nov 23, 2023 05:00
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Another video with tunnels under Al Shifa. https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1727409278636478519 There's still nothing that would point towards a secret underground command centre, but at the same time, if it was just a bomb shelter, surely there would have been a statement from hospital staff or board about it being there ahead of time. And I suppose they would also be actively in use considering all the bombings. The AC in one of the rooms looks like at least a somewhat recent addition, so if Israel built it back in the 80s, there have been some renovations.
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Nov 23, 2023 05:09
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Paladinus posted:Another video with tunnels under Al Shifa. The Eighties Israeli development was specifically a military command centre, as multiple media sources have acknowledged. So if this place ends up looking like an old Soviet bunker, that's why.
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Nov 23, 2023 05:25
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the IDF adopting a 'snappy comback' tone in tweets while they're levelling an entire city full of people really screams "boy we're gigantic fuckheads"
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Nov 23, 2023 05:32
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CuddleCryptid posted:Which implies that despite all the talk about civilians and human shields, in reality the US had to step in to get them to even try to target Hamas rather than just shelling anyone they could find. Has anyone asked US officials if they feel like bakeries are legitimate military targets? Because the IDF sure seems good at bombing those.
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Nov 23, 2023 05:49
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Paladinus posted:Another video with tunnels under Al Shifa. Well if there really is a tunnel under that hospital then I guess that really justifies bombing an entire city and causing the death of 16'000 people in 4 weeks, almost half of them children.
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Nov 23, 2023 06:09
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go play outside Skyler posted:Well if there really is a tunnel under that hospital then I guess that really justifies bombing an entire city and causing the death of 16'000 people in 4 weeks, almost half of them children. The bombing didn't even effect the tunnels! Which, you know, is the point of tunnels/bunkers. Any bombing was completely useless from the standpoint of actually effecting the defensive network they are using to justify the bombing. Its loving madness.
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Nov 23, 2023 06:22
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Gully Foyle posted:The bombing didn't even effect the tunnels! Which, you know, is the point of tunnels/bunkers. Any bombing was completely useless from the standpoint of actually effecting the defensive network they are using to justify the bombing. Its loving madness. Well, it did affect the tunnels. After all, there's nobody in that particular tunnel now, and the IDF controls it instead of Hamas. So it all worked out as expected, there was no other way to do it, and now that the method's proved its effectiveness they are going to do the same thing even more. My only hope is that the ceasefire somehow calms things down and Israel won't just switch to bombing the other half of Gaza.
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Nov 23, 2023 07:19
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But... That's not one of Hamas' tunnels? The contention is that it was but it seems more likely that it is, in fact, the tunnel that Israel built under the hospital complex back in the 80s.
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Nov 23, 2023 08:01
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Doesn't matter, just as we moved from bombing Al-ahli was good to bombing Al-ahli was a Hamas/PIJ false flag misfire to bombing every other hospital is good because they are atop Hamas tunnel fortresses, it's going to evolve from there are *the* Hamas tunnels to this was a temporary Hamas base that we had to destroy a hospital for. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Office_for_South_Vietnam And if you're wondering why the fixation on this as *the* Hamas megabase, let's refer to the old "Bamboo Pentagon" during the Vietnam war that the US was convinced could be destroyed to break the back of the VC resistance. It's certainly far more mobile and decentralized than what the American empire would do. So it would obviously never be worth the expenditure in attacking such a confabulated location, losing men and materiel to ambushes, and expending global goodwill as you murder doctors and patients in a horrendous war crime. It is the kind of thing that can only exist via intelligence gleaned from torture.
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Nov 23, 2023 08:32
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Josef bugman posted:But... That's not one of Hamas' tunnels? The contention is that it was but it seems more likely that it is, in fact, the tunnel that Israel built under the hospital complex back in the 80s. https://twitter.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1726358925493301518 But same guy says that tunnel was probably built by Israel in the 80's so I dunno.
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Nov 23, 2023 08:38
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Darth Walrus posted:The Eighties Israeli development was specifically a military command centre, as multiple media sources have acknowledged. So if this place ends up looking like an old Soviet bunker, that's why.
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Nov 23, 2023 08:50
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OneEightHundred posted:
This argument makes zero sense to me and I have yet to see or find any claim about Israel making military/smuggling tunnels under the hospital made prior to this month. Why would Israel have possibly made a tunnel like that one? To false flag an organization that didn’t exist, 40 years later? It is very very obviously not a service tunnel for the hospital’s wiring or piping or whatever, and very clearly not a normal Israeli bomb shelter. Building a "military command center" under an area where you would expect the surface is almost entirely controlled by hostile forces also makes literally zero sense. Like oh great you can’t get resupply, don’t know where you can exit safely, and you’re working with 80s sensor tech and comms. It doesn’t justify bombing hospitals or whatever but the claims that Israel built it seem to make about as much sense as claims that aliens built the pyramids. Saladman fucked around with this message at 08:55 on Nov 23, 2023 |
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Nov 23, 2023 08:53
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