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fatherboxx)
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fatherboxx posted:Last official figure from Zaluzhny was 150 000 dead, open source estimates confirm about 40 000. Dead is one problem, wounded is a worse problem. Dead sucks, and is someone gone from the labor pool. Lose your legs? Kidneys get hosed up? You actively need continuing care. That's not to mention PTSD, or just flat out letting violet criminals out and GIVING them PTSD. Just because you survived doesn't mean you aren't an issue your state needs to deal with. And if the state doesn't deal with you? You are a problem worse than a dead man. So maybe 100k flat out dead, and then a couple hundred thousand more on top of that that are somewhere from "I cut my toe" to "I will need continuing medical care for the rest of my short life". It's not great, and Russia can't just keep eating those figures year after year without collapsing. Same is true for Ukraine, but again: Everyone just sort of accepts that Ukraine is fighting for it's existence. It's wild that Russia is too.
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Nov 21, 2023 15:19
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Theres also a lot of video evidence out there of just brazen disregard for the wounded in the field.
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Nov 21, 2023 15:29
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Trying to guess which side breaks first at this point is like trying to call the outcome of WW1 at Verdun. Both sides have a long way to go before the breaking point.
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Nov 21, 2023 15:49
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Virtually no war has stopped due to running out of people to put into uniforms to go fight. That's really not how wars end, nor is either Ukraine or Russia anywhere even remotely near that point. There are many other factors that would end the war far before that point would be reached.
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Nov 21, 2023 16:23
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Yeah, speaking of Verdun, France in 1914 had a similar population to Ukraine today, suffered casualties at a much higher rate than Ukraine is, and went on to win their war. Factors other than "number of humans in the country" are wildly more important in this conflict.
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Nov 21, 2023 16:27
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Gort posted:Yeah, speaking of Verdun, France in 1914 had a similar population to Ukraine today, suffered casualties at a much higher rate than Ukraine is, and went on to win their war. Factors other than "number of humans in the country" are wildly more important in this conflict. I suspect this line of discussion needs to fade out, but I just wanted to add that France had the British Empire (at its peak or close to it) on it side in 1914 with British troops on the ground. I really hope we can help Ukraine enough. The horrible situation in Gaza has thrown a lot of things into doubt.
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Nov 21, 2023 16:37
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Eric Cantonese posted:British troops I believe the correct English terms are lads or chaps 
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Nov 21, 2023 16:59
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Nervous posted:I believe the correct English terms are lads or chaps Yes but what about the Scotts, Welsh, and Irish, hmm?
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Nov 21, 2023 17:47
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e: nvm, this joke won't go over well with current moderation's understanding of European humor.
spankmeister fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Nov 21, 2023 |
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Nov 21, 2023 18:08
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The general rule of thumb with modern warfare is 10x as many wounded as dead. A lot of wounded soldiers can be patched up and sent back in, but a lot of them can't.
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Nov 21, 2023 18:26
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Paladinus posted:Wifes and mothers of the mobilised have been lately trying to stage protests. Not against the war itself or Putin, but against the conditions under which their husbands and sons have to fight. Previously, the preferred method of spreading awareness was recording videos that later were picked up by Z tg channels, but now they are going for street protests, which means that the effectiveness of tg videos has diminished. So far, local governments prefer to reach out to organisers before they take to the streets and promise more money and benefits, and in some rare cases they send the police. While Russia managed to avoid the Afghanistan war levels of active dissent, it looks like things are slowly bubbling over. Depending on how long this thing drags on for, though...
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Nov 21, 2023 18:33
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Ynglaur posted:Yes but what about the Scotts, Welsh, and Irish, hmm? They fall under the term of "Plucky Subjects", followed by Auzzies, Kiwis and Sikhs.  No wonder we support anyone BUT England when it comes to sports.
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Nov 21, 2023 18:44
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Ms Adequate posted:How does he reckon we'd do a regime change on ol' Vladdy boy without exerting at least the level of effort of all those things combined, if not uhhh you know getting into WW3? I think his idea is something like, the various spy agencies could put pressure on Putin in a cheap way, since they have the skills and resources for that already, just need to be a bit more active and much more public. But yeah the risk calculus would be interesting
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Nov 21, 2023 19:02
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FuturePastNow posted:The general rule of thumb with modern warfare is 10x as many wounded as dead. A lot of wounded soldiers can be patched up and sent back in, but a lot of them can't. This rule is based on modern armies which put a lot of effort into providing battlefield medicine and quick medivac to modern medical facilities. The previous rule was 3x wounded per dead, that's probably more applicable to the state of the current Russian army.
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Nov 21, 2023 19:03
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Mulva posted:Dead is one problem, wounded is a worse problem. Dead sucks, and is someone gone from the labor pool. Lose your legs? Kidneys get hosed up? You actively need continuing care. That's not to mention PTSD, or just flat out letting violet criminals out and GIVING them PTSD. Just because you survived doesn't mean you aren't an issue your state needs to deal with. And if the state doesn't deal with you? You are a problem worse than a dead man. So maybe 100k flat out dead, and then a couple hundred thousand more on top of that that are somewhere from "I cut my toe" to "I will need continuing medical care for the rest of my short life". Is russia even tending to their wounded in any appreciable sense anymore?
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Nov 21, 2023 20:09
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spankmeister posted:e: nvm, this joke won't go over well with current moderation's understanding of European humor. ok ill bite: what do the rromani people have to do with this??
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Nov 21, 2023 20:25
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DandyLion posted:Is russia even tending to their wounded in any appreciable sense anymore? I'd imagine it depends on the unit. They're definitely not medivacking the Storm Z penal battalions or whatever. They want those people dead.
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Nov 21, 2023 21:40
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ummel posted:I'd imagine it depends on the unit. They're definitely not medivacking the Storm Z penal battalions or whatever. They want those people dead. possibly but i keep reading stories of officers/soldiers just excuting their own wounded because their is no medivac abilities really. plus russia has never really been great with vets least in the last 50 years or so. like i doubt alot of places are ADA equivilan complient. they just give the widow a fridge and discount day tickets to loo loo land and thats that.
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Nov 21, 2023 21:48
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ummel posted:I'd imagine it depends on the unit. They're definitely not medivacking the Storm Z penal battalions or whatever. They want those people dead. There are still quite a few coming back. Just recently a bona fide devil worshipper who was in prison for ritual murder of four teenagers got his pardon for serving in Storm Z. He was severely wounded but survived and returned home. I imagine he would be the first to be quietly disappeared without a trace not to deal with him in the future, but it may just be that they care about Storm Z exactly as little as about other non-elite units. https://meduza.io/feature/2023/11/2...oyne-s-ukrainoy Paladinus fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Nov 21, 2023 |
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Nov 21, 2023 21:50
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Eric Cantonese posted:I suspect this line of discussion needs to fade out, but I just wanted to add that France had the British Empire (at its peak or close to it) on it side in 1914 with British troops on the ground. I think the point is that countries took more casualties in single battles in WW1 than either combatant has taken in the Russia-Ukraine war yet. The casualties are staggering for a European post-WW2 conflict, yes, and they are at the point where it will have long term demographical and economical impact. However, the situation is not nearly close to wars like the 30YW, the Napoleonic Wars, WW1 or WW2. And those wars didn't end because one side completely ran out of men to put in uniforms. You can argue to what degree a casualty comparison is even relevant, as there's little point in handing out more rifles if the actual hardware that matters run out for Russia or Ukraine. It's not like you can raise a new corps, give them muskets, and send them to the front and make a difference in 2025. But it's a pretty safe bet that the war will be decided by other aspects before either side is left with some kind of volkssturm army, even though a lack of a steady stream of recruits will have an effect on the war effort. lilljonas fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Nov 21, 2023 |
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Nov 21, 2023 22:37
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It's a non sequitur. The Nagorno-Karabakh conflict wasn't decided by running out of people who could hold a rifle, either. There's just no comparing WW1 warfare to this day at any level, it's so different you might as well reference the Punic wars. e: what liljonas said in edit. What matters is the cost of outfitting and training and supplying a combat unit, and replacing it after a total loss. Nenonen fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Nov 21, 2023 |
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Nov 21, 2023 22:56
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Paladinus posted:There are still quite a few coming back. Just recently a bona fide devil worshipper who was in prison for ritual murder of four teenagers got his pardon for serving in Storm Z. He was severely wounded but survived and returned home. I imagine he would be the first to be quietly disappeared without a trace not to deal with him in the future, but it may just be that they care about Storm Z exactly as little as about other non-elite units. God bless the denazifyers.
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Nov 22, 2023 02:12
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https://twitter.com/francis_scarr/status/1727641659997831540?t=q9DiWbAlDhPiZJ1H4JaFKw&s=19
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Nov 23, 2023 12:05
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fatherboxx posted:https://twitter.com/francis_scarr/status/1727641659997831540?t=q9DiWbAlDhPiZJ1H4JaFKw&s=19 Sensible centrist: it's racist and dehumanising and cringe to refer to the Russian fighters as Orcs, have you ever heard of a class analysis of warfare? Actual Russian fighters: LOOKS LIKE MEATS BACK ON THE MENU, BOYS
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Nov 23, 2023 13:53
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Failed Imagineer posted:Sensible centrist: it's racist and dehumanising and cringe to refer to the Russian fighters as Orcs, have you ever heard of a class analysis of warfare? Advising not to renegotiate this topic here
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Nov 23, 2023 17:29
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By no means. It IS definitely racist and cringe to say stupid poo poo like that, but there's a certain unavoidable irony there when Russia is pulling shock troops straight from the Monster Squad
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Nov 23, 2023 17:33
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Wagnerdahmerung
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Nov 23, 2023 17:36
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fatherboxx posted:Advising not to renegotiate this topic here I've been told that the Orc association comes from Russians themselves, except they use it in an endearing manner. Probably the number one reason I would never refer to them as such. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 24, 2023 00:00
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Nitrox posted:I've been told that the Orc association comes from Russians themselves, except they use it in an endearing manner. Probably the number one reason I would never refer to them as such. There's a speech in Zelenskyy's show Servant of the People in which he says about Ukrainians "we are not some borderland between elves and orcs." I always figured it might be influenced by that.
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Nov 24, 2023 01:47
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It originated from a LoTR fanfic that was published in Russia where the viewpoint characters were the Orcs (Orc being a slur for Mordorian Humans in this version), and is about Mordor being defeated by the perfidious Elves and Men who massacre most of the Orcs, and two Orcs teaming up with the last Nazgul (the titular Last Ringbearer) to break a mirror that allows the elves to stay in Arda, which frees all Men from the Elvish Tyranny. It was pretty popular in Russia.
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Nov 24, 2023 01:56
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It's probably a bad sign for Ukrainian aid that Geert Wilders' party (PVV) received the most seats in the Dutch elections. From what I can tell, they seem like the Dutch version of AfD/National Rally.
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Nov 24, 2023 03:09
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Aren't the Dutch the most pro-Ukraine people in Europe because of MH17?
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Nov 24, 2023 04:15
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Like do you know what  has stated about Ukraine, for instance? It's not like one party can form a majority government anyway. And we have an example from Italy that right wing populists rising doesn't automatically mean that support for Ukraine will vanish.
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Nov 24, 2023 04:41
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Nenonen posted:Like do you know what No need to be patronizing, because it sounds like you don't know what he's said: quote:In an X (formerly Twitter) update on Feb. 24, 2022, the day the full-scale invasion started, he also rejected military aid to Ukraine with a comment saying: “Do not let Dutch households pay the price for a war that is not ours.” quote:Like other far-right leaders on the continent, Wilders has praised Vladimir Putin’s rule, rallying against what he has described as “hysterical Russophobia” in Europe. He's also anti-EU, which means he has a chance of being obstructionist on EU-level initiatives on principle if PVV manages to form a coalition.
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Nov 24, 2023 05:35
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PVV is the largest party by far but needs at least two more moderate right wing parties to form a government. Those two being VVD, an establishment neoliberal center-right party (previously led by Mark Rutte), and the NSC, a newcomer but led by a former CDA, center-right christian democrat. So two center-right parties at the minimum. Both those parties are more pro-Ukraine than PVV, VVD moreso than NSC, and both are more pro-EU, where NSC is more eurosceptic than VVD but neither would want to go NEXIT. I seriously doubt them letting Wilders tear down Ukraine support completely or becoming Orban-lite. Still, it's clear that support for Ukraine isn't going to be what it was if Wilders manages to form a coalition. (Which, I think he will tbh, and sooner than many people think.) The point is; he won't be a little Orban because he isn't elected as supreme leader, that's not how our system works. he has to make a deal with the other parties if he wants to rule.
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Nov 24, 2023 05:49
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Yeah, but Orban is likely more dependent on EU funds.
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Nov 24, 2023 06:05
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Quixzlizx posted:No need to be patronizing, because it sounds like you don't know what he's said: Sorry, didn't intend to rub you the wrong way. You should have started with that.
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Nov 24, 2023 06:12
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OddObserver posted:Yeah, but Orban is likely more dependent on EU funds. Definitely. But what is your argument?
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Nov 24, 2023 06:14
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WaPo says Russia wants China’s help building a tunnel to Crimea. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/24/russia-crimea-tunnel-china/
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Nov 24, 2023 09:37
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Rinkles posted:WaPo says Russia wants China’s help building a tunnel to Crimea. Bold strategy of finding a bridge to sell
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Nov 24, 2023 10:42
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