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gloom posted:The Apple premium is just what it costs to have a computer that doesn’t make you hate yourself. It’s more that Windows notebook manufacturers have made so many compromises / cut so many corners to get the price down (since that’s the only point they can compete on) that they’ve normalized accepting a lovely machine for less $$$ You tell yourself whatever you gotta, but a $1000 Thinkpad will last ten years if you take care of it and has specs better than a $1000 Macbook by a country mile. I just paid $1100 a few weeks ago and got a P14s with an 1800p OLED screen, 64GB RAM and 1TB SSD. It's hard to even make a comparison to Apple pricing with a straight face. If you really can't stand Windows, Linux works great too. vvv Do whatever you want, just don't lie to yourself by saying that the hardware alone is worth the price they charge for it. You're paying for that OS too, and it's a lot more than a Windows license so I truly hope you get some value from it. Eletriarnation fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Nov 24, 2023 |
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Nov 23, 2023 23:52
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I'd rather just use macos than any version of Windows after 7, and as for Linux; loving lmao
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Nov 24, 2023 00:14
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Eletriarnation posted:You tell yourself whatever you gotta, but a $1000 Thinkpad will last ten years if you take care of it and has specs better than a $1000 Macbook by a country mile. I mean, that last part isn’t wrong - you’re certainly paying for macOS even if it’s not explicitly spelled out. But Microsoft claws value out of your Windows install by harvesting data about you on multiple fronts, slicing it into pieces that ostensibly can’t be traced directly back to you, and then selling it to god only knows who. And they seem firmly committed to leveraging their “what are you gonna do, leave” position in the marketplace to cudgel users into putting up with their preferential treatment of their own services in a way that’s a lot more obtrusive than what Apple does. I just got talked out of snagging an M2 Pro mini or Studio because I’ve got a cromulent enough Ryzen 5700GE SFF family PC that’ll do what I need, but every time I warm up to it, Windows farts its way to the front of my irritation queue. Whether it’s nagging me to install updates just before I had a big queue of videos to transcode, reminding me with breathless urgency that Bing Is My Friend and So Is Edge, or hassling me that my power settings aren’t carbon emission-mindful while Microsoft runs server farms in drought-stricken areas to push AI at everyone, Windows 11 is tasteless as hell. And yes, Linux is on my main workstation and does yeoman’s work there. But it’s not the OS for all occasions, and if I could replace the family PC with a base model Studio, I absolutely would.
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Nov 24, 2023 00:51
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Yes, again - if having access to macOS is worth several hundred dollars to you, full speed ahead. It's just comical though to see people acting like the existence of cheap, fragile Windows laptops means that the same GB of RAM or SSD in an Apple laptop is worth ten times as much as it is on the shelf. I'll readily admit that with every fresh install of Windows, I go through an annoying ten or fifteen minutes setting it up to my preferences. After that though, it pretty much always acts exactly how I expect because I'm used to using Windows. I assume that most Mac users are fundamentally the same, they prefer macOS because it's what they are used to. The difference is that some proportion of Mac users seem to feel compelled to justify the premium they paid by coming up with some story about PCs being categorically junk or Windows being unusable, instead of just owning their preferences. Eletriarnation fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Nov 24, 2023 |
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Nov 24, 2023 01:02
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I have ptsd from working in a small town computer repair store during the xp to 7 era and I require a Mac to lower my blood pressure.
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Nov 24, 2023 01:23
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Perplx posted:I have ptsd from working in a small town computer repair store during the xp to 7 era and I require a Mac to lower my blood pressure. lol same. Worked in PC repair for 5 years during the XP -> Vista transition and never wanted to touch another Windows box again
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Nov 24, 2023 01:26
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Macs are and are not Just Better, on account of how PCs are and are not Just Junk. The appeals of these things hinge a lot on exactly what, and crucially how much power, you want out of the silicon in the thing, but for the most part, we are long past the point of the raw power really mattering to anyone other than the literal power users. Instead, famously, Apple builds their stuff as unified systems with bits that work together as seamlessly as possible. As Tim Apple loves to say in I think literally every presentation that introduces hardware, these are "products only Apple can deliver". Exactly what you're getting out of it varies depending on the product and the person but I like to think of it the way I think it was John Gruber put it, that at some point there come certain synergised experiences that flip the bit of your brain that just says "that's nice", things like how the systems aren't just fast but are fast and responsive enough to wake instantly from sleep, or how while the RAM isn't magic the combination of that responsive CPU and SSD that's fast enough allows a certain tier of casual user to never have to worry about closing apps on a base-spec system, or, just, absolutely everything about the slam dunk that was the introduction of the force touch trackpad. Things like that. These things are kinda tricky to pin down and like I said vary massively between people but what they aren't is bullshit. Also, because these things do largely come down to matters of comfort, you can't really use them to refute someone who's saying they're already fully comfortable with Windows. Some people just aren't bothered by the things Apple wants to save us all from. But that's the thing; you can't really design a PC the way Apple designs Macs because everything in a PC is a component designed mostly to compete with other components of the same type rather than to cohere with other components of different types, and Windows introduces Microsoft's own foibles and priorities into the mix on top of however many other companies are represented in one system. You can probably achieve most or all of those nice things on a PC if you know what you're doing and are really determined, but how many PCs, of all PCs, are going to hit that level? There are nice PC laptops, even ones that aren't that expensive, but absolutely none are as nice as the £$€999 Macbook Air, even when they're better at some thing, and every Mac, even the ones owned by the most casual users, hits all of those things.
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Nov 24, 2023 01:39
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Apple charges a premium for a combination of tastefully designed hardware and software, and as of like 2020, really well engineered hardware. As the last page of this thread demonstrates, you’ll talk yourself into weird knots trying to use Facts And Logic to quantify whether it’s worth that premium, because of how much of whether it feels ‘nice’ isn’t really about specs. Like, there are good windows laptops. I got a dell xps in 2016 over a MacBook because of all the keyboard horror stories. It was a really good laptop with sleek industrial design. I think MacOS is nicer to stare at all day. I don’t know if it’s possible to say whether that luxury was worth a £200 premium or whatever. The crazy battery on the new MacBooks is a real factor I guess, but everyone else will catch up with that eventually. I think what is true is Apple could make them, iPhones, and everything else they sell cheaper if they wanted and they’d still be the richest tech company in the world.
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Nov 24, 2023 01:58
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Eletriarnation posted:It's just comical though to see people acting like the existence of cheap, fragile Windows laptops means that the same GB of RAM or SSD in an Apple laptop is worth ten times as much as it is on the shelf. I don't think people are doing this though? No offense, but it comes off as projection that this is what people are claiming, because of the discussion about paying more for the laptop vs a comparative Windows laptop, when it goes much deeper than that, as others have said. Pretty much the entire thread basically says/agrees that the prices Apple charges for memory, storage, etc., is egregious, and makes fun of it. We just recently spent some posts complaining about how Apple further forked the various options with the M3 Pro/Max MBP release, and how they claim that something is a certain uncharge, say to go from a 14-core to 16-core Max, but then don't tell you that it also includes the applicable upcharge for related items that are minimums or required for that CPU spec. It's horeshit. However and unfortunately for Apple hardware, it ends up being a giant "What can you do?". For desktop systems, we can and do recommend getting the amount of storage one is comfortable with, and otherwise going the external route to save money. For a laptop though, that's not necessarily practical. With the RAM though, yeah, you have to pay the Apple Tax right away to get the amount you think you need, feel comfortable, or want. That part has and will continue to suck. And I do think it's a little bit of a different case now, since it's integrated into the SoC, and I'd assume that the differences in terms of the applicable packing of different die options, main RAM, etc., results in additional costs versus the traditional socketed or soldered methods. But as The Grumbles said: The Grumbles posted:Apple charges a premium for a combination of tastefully designed hardware and software, and as of like 2020, really well engineered hardware. As the last page of this thread demonstrates, you’ll talk yourself into weird knots trying to use Facts And Logic to quantify whether it’s worth that premium, because of how much of whether it feels ‘nice’ isn’t really about specs. But also, this is very much true also: The Grumbles posted:I think what is true is Apple could make them, iPhones, and everything else they sell cheaper if they wanted and they’d still be the richest tech company in the world.
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Nov 24, 2023 03:19
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It’s actually around the lower end of the range where MacBooks are most compelling imo. It’s absolutely insane that a 3 year old fanless consumer laptop handles my increasingly complex professional workload with ease. More often than not I have three different browsers open simultaneously with dozens of tabs, a demanding effect-laden 4K video editing timeline (that’s being rendered out very often!), Photoshop, Illustrator, several audio editing programs, and both a camera and microphone streaming almost permanently with a multitude of effects being applied live on the computer, all being displayed on an external monitor + a sidecar iPad. All of this gets the CPU on average to ~65°C, ~90°C while rendering and there is no single stutter, unless an app decides to have a memory leak, which usually only happens with Lightroom of all things. I never have to worry about too many background tasks being open and I can run Time-Machine backups, several cloud drive and backup programs, slack, discord, signal, WhatsApp and freaking Adobe Creative Cloud in the background without ever worrying that the computer won’t perform. It’s still baffling to me that this is a thing, and the only reason I could come up with to upgrade is the HDR screen on the MacBook Pros, but so far I could talk myself out of it. Even if it is 250% faster or something insane that’s in the end completely irrelevant because the current setup is already fast enough for anything I need.
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Nov 24, 2023 03:32
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I’m paying extra because the Mac has the best drat trackpad you can get
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Nov 24, 2023 03:38
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I did a refactor of a variable in my application in WebStorm and it happened so fast on the M3 Pro that my brain could not accept that it had actually replaced all the occurrences that fast. Absolutely insane what they have done with Apple Silicon MarcusSA posted:I’m paying extra because the Mac has the best drat trackpad you can get Also this, I only got the ThinkPad I had before because it had the other superior pointing device: The Keyboard Nipple
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Nov 24, 2023 03:38
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Honj Steak posted:It’s actually around the lower end of the range where MacBooks are most compelling imo. It’s absolutely insane that a 3 year old fanless consumer laptop handles my increasingly complex professional workload with ease. More often than not I have three different browsers open simultaneously with dozens of tabs, a demanding effect-laden 4K video editing timeline (that’s being rendered out very often!), Photoshop, Illustrator, several audio editing programs, and both a camera and microphone streaming almost permanently with a multitude of effects being applied live on the computer, all being displayed on an external monitor + a sidecar iPad. All of this gets the CPU on average to ~65°C, ~90°C while rendering and there is no single stutter, unless an app decides to have a memory leak, which usually only happens with Lightroom of all things. I never have to worry about too many background tasks being open and I can run Time-Machine backups, several cloud drive and backup programs, slack, discord, signal, WhatsApp and freaking Adobe Creative Cloud in the background without ever worrying that the computer won’t perform. yeah, I can agree that the value proposition on pro/prosumer laptops and especially desktops (it was better when you could buy a 27" iMac and a pack of third party RAM and do the install in <10 min) starts to get fuzzy quick, but the Macbook Air has been a category leader for like a decade straight for a reason. Even Linus had to give credit where it was due when he finally forced himself to daily an Intel one back in like 2019
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Nov 24, 2023 03:54
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I think there are a lot of people who are fixated on the idea that you need some arbitrary amount of ram, when the reality is that 8gb is perfectly adequate for most normal home usage - browsing the web, email, Netflix, writing essays, etc which is what a large proportion of Air buyers in particular are doing. This is true even of windows laptops, and AS Macs get more out of less when it comes to memory. I also don’t think it’s entirely fair to compare the price of throwing a stick of ram into a windows laptop vs upgrading the ram in a Mac, because they aren’t like for like products. Does apple charge more for it than they could? Sure. But it’s a premium product. The value proposition of something like an MBA is better than it’s ever been. You’d struggle to find a 13 inch windows laptop that outperforms a 13 inch MBA, even with 16gb of ram. And that doesn’t take into account stuff like the battery life, build quality and screen, and the virtues of having macOS.
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Nov 24, 2023 04:18
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I’d go pretty bananas for a MacBook Pro if my CAD and CAM software could run on there. Similar products like Dell Precision or HP ZBook are about the same price wise.
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Nov 24, 2023 04:32
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My work Dell laptop reminds me every day why I’ll happily continue to pay the Apple tax. Sure, a more expensive Windows laptop might have a competitive trackpad, and I could spend a bunch of time fine-tuning and de-shittifying Windows, but I’d rather just buy the MacBook. For somebody like my mom or partner who isn’t a power user, a MacBook Air is perfect and there are deals bringing them under $800, which is fairly reasonable for something that will be used for 5-10 years. I’ll never not miss the top menubar. Corb3t fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Nov 24, 2023 |
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Nov 24, 2023 04:42
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Canned Sunshine posted:I don't think people are doing this though? Maybe my misinterpretation, then? This is the post I was responding to: gloom posted:The Apple premium is just what it costs to have a computer that doesn’t make you hate yourself. It’s more that Windows notebook manufacturers have made so many compromises / cut so many corners to get the price down (since that’s the only point they can compete on) that they’ve normalized accepting a lovely machine for less $$$ Really seems like trying to find a justification for intense RAM prices to me. Eletriarnation fucked around with this message at 05:52 on Nov 24, 2023 |
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Nov 24, 2023 04:55
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The Lord Bude posted:I think there are a lot of people who are fixated on the idea that you need some arbitrary amount of ram, when the reality is that 8gb is perfectly adequate for most normal home usage - browsing the web, email, Netflix, writing essays, etc which is what a large proportion of Air buyers in particular are doing. This is true even of windows laptops, and AS Macs get more out of less when it comes to memory. lol the studio display defender has logged on "overpaying by an order of magnitude on otherwise bargain basement-level specs is fine actually" farts into tube connected to facemask
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Nov 24, 2023 05:46
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Ok Comboomer posted:lol the studio display defender has logged on I think it's both true that Apple products are a bit too expensive, and also true that you can only compare like-for-like specs with other computers up to a point because so much of the appeal of Macs is subjective design based look and feel type stuff and fundamentally about taste. It's the most engineer-brained thing in the world to look at the spec sheet alone as the full story, so to be fair it's not surprising that it happens a lot on forums and tech YouTube channels. Nice design does carry a premium that goes beyond the bill of parts, and really the only company that sells nice industrial design at fairer prices is Ikea, who are also set up as a giant corporate scam (they are technically a charity lol) so they don't pay a penny of tax. On the 8GB thing though I do have a base level M2 air and it's real good. I currently have two browser windows open across different safari profiles, with half a dozen tabs open in both, including Google web apps, music/podcast apps running, and more. If I go into activity monitor I know it swaps the SSD, but I honestly couldn't point out to you when that happens. I've done some (light) video editing on it too, and it's held up fine, and some (slightly more intense) audio editing and it's been great. Apple should still make 16GB the minimum (especially with the pro!) because the only reason they're not doing so is 'money', but the base level Mac is honestly a beast. It's mostly caused such a hubbub because of the snake-eating-its-own-tail that is YouTube laptop reviews being also people who use their laptops to professionally edit videos for the reviews of the laptops they are using to edit. But, like, if you type for a living, 8 gigs is more than enough. With the caveat again, that Apple still should be more generous with their specs, because why not. The Grumbles fucked around with this message at 11:28 on Nov 24, 2023 |
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Nov 24, 2023 11:20
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The Grumbles posted:I think it's both true that Apple products are a bit too expensive, and also true that you can only compare like-for-like specs with other computers up to a point because so much of the appeal of Macs is subjective design based look and feel type stuff and fundamentally about taste. It's the most engineer-brained thing in the world to look at the spec sheet alone as the full story, so to be fair it's not surprising that it happens a lot on forums and tech YouTube channels. Nice design does carry a premium that goes beyond the bill of parts, and really the only company that sells nice industrial design at fairer prices is Ikea, who are also set up as a giant corporate scam (they are technically a charity lol) so they don't pay a penny of tax. I think it’s a bit more than just subjective look and feel, although that is also true. There is a demonstrable performance difference between ram (and SSD storage for that matter) on an AS Mac compared to a pc laptop, and nobody acknowledges that when they complain that ram and storage are cheaper on a PC. Is apple charging a generous markup? Almost certainly. But people are clearly perfectly willing to pay for it, and that’s how the market works. And it doesn’t change the fact that it’s absolutely irrelevant that a windows laptop at the same price point has more ram, because they don’t perform as well. It’s like when AMD was struggling to sell cpus that outperformed intel ones decades ago, because they had a smaller number on the box. The number is irrelevant. Only real world performance matters. The Lord Bude fucked around with this message at 11:29 on Nov 24, 2023 |
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Nov 24, 2023 11:25
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Is this likely the best deal I'm going to find on a low spec 14" MBP? https://computers.woot.com/offers/apple-14-macbook-pro-8-core-m1-pro-2021z-16 There's also this one with 1TB, but it's from a 3rd party seller so I'm not entirely sure what 'renewed' means in that case: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09TG83NHW/
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Nov 24, 2023 13:39
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Splinter posted:Is this likely the best deal I'm going to find on a low spec 14" MBP? https://computers.woot.com/offers/apple-14-macbook-pro-8-core-m1-pro-2021z-16 I dunno about the Amazon ones but the woot ones are definitely Apple refurbished.
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Nov 24, 2023 16:26
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The Lord Bude posted:And it doesn’t change the fact that it’s absolutely irrelevant that a windows laptop at the same price point has more ram, because they don’t perform as well. It’s like when AMD was struggling to sell cpus that outperformed intel ones decades ago, because they had a smaller number on the box. The number is irrelevant. Only real world performance matters. They don't perform as well... at what? You're talking about not only two different operating systems, but two different CPU architectures at this point. If you are talking about synthetic benchmarks then sure, the Apple Silicon chips are very impressive. Not on an entirely different level, but certainly top-tier. Power efficiency is unbeatable, I'll grant that. But I got my laptop in part to play games. Are you really going to tell me that an M2 Pro is better than a 7840U for that? Really, they're just different. It's OK, you don't need to come up with some reason for why the Mac is "better" in an objective sense. You prefer it, and that's OK. Eletriarnation fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Nov 24, 2023 |
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Nov 24, 2023 16:40
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Eletriarnation posted:They don't perform as well... at what? You're talking about not only two different operating systems, but two different CPU architectures at this point. If you are talking about synthetic benchmarks then sure, the Apple Silicon chips are very impressive. Not on an entirely different level, but certainly top-tier. Power efficiency is unbeatable, I'll grant that. What’s your angle here?
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Nov 24, 2023 16:56
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Maybe he works for Microsoft?
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Nov 24, 2023 16:59
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Eletriarnation posted:
Um… yes? Have you looked at game benchmarks, or are you just blinded by the ‘you can’t game on a Mac’ fantasy? Granted you can’t get every single game running on a Mac but between games with Mac releases, Crossover, the game porting toolkit, and straight up virtual machines you can game pretty drat well. I replaced a high end gaming PC (1080ti, coffee lake i7) with a Mac Studio because I couldn’t tolerate using windows any longer and I sure as hell haven’t stopped playing video games.
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Nov 24, 2023 17:18
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The Lord Bude posted:a high end gaming PC (1080ti, coffee lake i7) Lol
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Nov 24, 2023 17:22
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The Lord Bude posted:Um… yes? Have you looked at game benchmarks, or are you just blinded by the ‘you can’t game on a Mac’ fantasy? you’re like a macrumors forums poster it’s amazing
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Nov 24, 2023 17:30
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My M2 plays Baulder’s Gate 3 better than my desktop machine, and that one is no slouch.
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Nov 24, 2023 17:31
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Who knows? Griping about Apple turning each upgrade into a pinch point to capture value and withhold the opportunity from users to do it themselves for cheaper is par for the course here. But various people well-actuallying on behalf of the value proposition of PC hardware here gets old because the proposition undergirding each ecosystem is just different. I don’t even know if I want to effort post about it, but at a fundamental level Microsoft has always been a reactionary company. It’s turning to Software as a Service or data collection and monetization wherever possible, and has become so matter of fact in its self-dealing versus its users that it has finally started to piss a lot of them off above and beyond the usual #thatsthemagicofwindows crap we’ve dealt with since Windows first emerged into the world. That doesn’t have much to do directly with AMD and Intel making perfectly lovely hardware that tends to get pushed past its efficiency inflection point to win benchmarks, but both companies are beholden to Microsoft for the overwhelming majority of the people who use their hardware. And given the choice between Apple, where the hardware is efficient and fast and Just Works to enable their software while power usage is low, or the PC ecosystem, where I have to deal with Windows trying to push me toward Microsoft’s crap in an aggressive and patronizing way while it also had worse battery life or runs hotter… I mean, for a laptop or a machine I look forward to using for years, it’s not a contest for me. And yes, I have a PC I built myself, and most of the time it’s alright. Lands somewhere between an M2 mini and a Studio and cost a fraction as much as the latter. But it’s not as nice! Hasturtium fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Nov 24, 2023 |
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Nov 24, 2023 17:31
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I mean, it was when I bought it. To be clear, I’m not saying a Mac studio will outperform a new current gen gaming PC with a high end GPU for video games, but I’m pretty loving confident a Macbook air will outperform any similar class laptop with an intel or AMD cpu. An MBP won’t out perform an expensive gaming laptop with a high end discreet GPU at gaming but I’d put money on it in any other respect.
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Nov 24, 2023 17:35
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Warbird posted:My M2 plays Baulder’s Gate 3 better than my desktop machine, and that one is no slouch. drat right it does. (I’ve put in like 250 hours since the Mac version came out) Hasturtium posted:I don’t even know if I want to effort post about it, but at a fundamental level Microsoft has always been a reactionary company. It’s turning to Software as a Service or data collection and monetization wherever possible, and has become so matter of fact in its self-dealing versus its users that it has finally started to piss a lot of them off above and beyond the usual #thatsthemagicofwindows crap we’ve dealt with since Windows first emerged into the world. That doesn’t have much to do directly with AMD and Intel making perfectly lovely hardware that tends to get pushed past its efficiency inflection point to win benchmarks, but both companies are beholden to Microsoft for the overwhelming majority of the people who use their hardware. And given the choice between Apple, where the hardware is efficient and fast and Just Works to enable their software while power usage is low, or the PC ecosystem, where I have to deal with Windows trying to push me toward Microsoft’s crap in an aggressive and patronizing way while it also had worse battery life or runs hotter… I mean, for a laptop or a machine I look forward to using for years, it’s not a contest for me. This is at least effort post adjacent I think, it very eloquently captures how I feel. Id been wanting to ditch windows for years but the hardware limitations of Macs in the GPU department always held me back, until AS made them good enough that I could satisfy my gaming needs enough to justify the jump; and I have absolutely no regrets. The Lord Bude fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Nov 24, 2023 |
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Nov 24, 2023 17:37
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I like my sex workers high class and discrete.
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Nov 24, 2023 17:37
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Hasturtium posted:I don’t even know if I want to effort post about it, but at a fundamental level Microsoft has always been a reactionary company. It’s turning to Software as a Service or data collection and monetization wherever possible, and has become so matter of fact in its self-dealing versus its users that it has finally started to piss a lot of them off above and beyond the usual #thatsthemagicofwindows crap we’ve dealt with since Windows first emerged into the world. the iOS app store
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Nov 24, 2023 17:38
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The Lord Bude posted:I mean, it was when I bought it. The patchwork of different ways to run games puts Mac OS in a worse than Linux position for gaming, which is pretty comical. I was curious how the Game Porting Toolkit handles AVX instructions, because I know it uses Rosetta, and it looks like it just doesn't and you cant run games that need AVX/AVX2: https://www.applegamingwiki.com/wiki/Game_Porting_Toolkit It also looks like it's downright nasty to work with, you get to deal with the whole host of wine tricks and flags, and it still won't let you run a whole bunch of low system requirements games that I want to be able to play on a portable laptop, like Team Fortress 2 or Counter Strike.
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Nov 24, 2023 17:40
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Ok Comboomer posted:the iOS app store Not wrong. Also tied chiefly to the iOS landscape, which is a different captured market I have issues with. But in talking about Macs versus PCs the App Store for both is mostly ignorable for both. And the Windows store isn’t awful if it has what you need. Microsoft isn’t always evil.
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Nov 24, 2023 17:41
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Twerk from Home posted:The patchwork of different ways to run games puts Mac OS in a worse than Linux position for gaming, which is pretty comical. Tools like whisky and crossover are improving at a very rapid pace. But for the games you’ve listed just try running them using ARM windows in parallels (you can even properly register it now that Microsoft’s exclusivity deal is up). Even fairly high requirement games run astonishingly well in that environment. edit: just checked apple silicon games and TF2 runs perfectly in Parallels. The Lord Bude fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Nov 24, 2023 |
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Nov 24, 2023 17:44
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The Lord Bude posted:Even fairly high requirement games run astonishingly well in that environment.
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Nov 24, 2023 17:47
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Lord Bude, what do you even use your Mac Studio for? Did you spend ~$4000-5000USD to play Baldurs Gate at 5K/60?
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Nov 24, 2023 17:47
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edit: nvm
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Nov 24, 2023 17:52
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