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Yeah i distinctly remember the feeling of "this is all just too much" as part of why i fell off payday 2 thiugh i dont remember the triggering event. Payday 3 has the opposite problem in that it feels hollow. Maybe that'll get better but as it is not even the empty bones are that appealing as "systems"
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Nov 27, 2023 13:57
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Tulip posted:I do kinda feel for the devs, not just of payday but of any sort of games-as-a-service game. Like its just not possible that payday 3 on release could ever have had the level of content support that payday 2 had at the end of its lifespan, and like for myself as a consumer it feels like an incredibly stupid choice: even if I didn't already own payday 2, I have the choice between a game that costs 100% of a new game and has x amount of content, or i could buy the older game that costs 10% of a new game and has 20x the amount of content. And because of like, just how game development works in the GAAS paradigm, the older game is going to be more, not less, polished. Unless you have some sort of truly rare psychologically devastating reaction to the older graphics, the newer game is just kind of a worse deal. I mean, PD2 was supposed to “end” at the end of 2017, and then Overkill’s The Walking Dead imploded, and the company went insolvent, so they went back to making DLC for their captive audience two years later so they could buy time while they got a Payday 3 off the ground. Now it’s out after four years of development and it still feels underbaked. They are just not good developers, and they honestly never particularly have been. Almost nothing that eventually became fun about Payday 2 was there at launch. There were no tradeoffs between armor and dodging, the skill system was completely different, the level system was an unbearable grind that left people running Rats five million times in a row just to be able to access basic functions. Developers launching GaaS games in a disappointing state and then improving them as time goes on is the business model behind some of the most successful examples of the business model, but Overkill is trying to do it now when they have less staff, less resources, and less time.
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Nov 27, 2023 14:23
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Imo part of the issue with Payday 2 was just the constant flow of paid DLC. I think that mentally I prefer a single more expensive expansion rather than cheaper, smaller, constant DLC. When a game drops a large pack of maps and guns it's something to get you back into the flow of the game and keep playing. Meanwhile if it's "hey $4 and you can play one map" you can buy it and play the one map a few times but retention is a lot lower because there isn't anything else to bounce off onto when you get bored of the one map, so you just go back to whatever game you were playing before. It's also a problem when you log back in after not playing for a while and the whole game menu is just a mess of grayed out items with "DLC" stamped across the front, all bundled across a thousand different separate purchases. Even if they all add up to what a single large purchase might be, and it allows you to tailor what you want to actually buy, it still *feels* more exploitative.
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Nov 27, 2023 14:38
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I think I need to do another big 'ol effortpost about what transpired between 2015 and the "fall" of overkill, which seems to have gone underreported. It seems to have almost all been the fruits of one especially disastrous executive agreement.
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Nov 27, 2023 15:06
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If it's the one I'm thinking of, it also gave us one of the funniest and best part of Payday 2 by accident 
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Nov 27, 2023 15:09
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Hey, remember Raid: World War II? Guys, remember Raid? Anyone?
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Nov 27, 2023 15:10
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The state of PD3 would be easier to give a pass to if the game didn't feel so similar to PD2. Like if the engine was such an overhaul that the graphics and physics and mechanics were all massively improved to the point that it felt like a new game I would be willing to overlook how devoid of content it is, but to the layman PD3 looks identical to PD2 and there really weren't that many mechanical improvements made between the two games outside of the new stealth (which is admittedly a very welcome change) so it feels like a downgrade in most respects. It feels like it could be another darktide situation where in a year with some more content it could be pretty great but the player numbers for PD3 are pretty disastrous right now and they haven't exactly been out there banging a drum about much of anything in the pipeline except for rehashed content from PD2 so I don't have a ton of faith in them to turn the ship around at the moment.
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Nov 27, 2023 15:38
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Nov 27, 2023 15:40
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Fil5000 posted:Hey, remember Raid: World War II? Guys, remember Raid? Anyone? I got called in on a weekend like 2 weeks before it’s launch to rework the weapons (recoil, damage, the way some skills worked with them), then all those changes got reverted in the day 1 patch womp womp
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Nov 27, 2023 16:27
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Eh. PD2 is dirt cheap most of the time, has 10 years of content, and runs on weaker hardware. Aus pricing at the moment had PD2 at $14.50 full price/$3.62 current sale price. PD3 (if not playing it on GamePass) is $59.95/$47.96 I could get PD2 and still have $45.45/$44.34 to spend on DLC on top of all the extra free stuff already in it. 2 also has janky but still rather fun (and free) VR. I kinda like the slower pace of PD3 but yeeeeeeah. 2 got a bit over the top with how manic it was at times (though I won't say no to Payday but Titanfall movement).
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Nov 27, 2023 16:35
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RAID has apparently reemerged into some sort of fan-maintained half-life that I don't fully understand, and has as a part of that process undergone a lot of improvements to most of its systems. I'm planning to give it another try once my backlog clears up a bit.
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Nov 27, 2023 16:36
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Discendo Vox posted:RAID has apparently reemerged into some sort of fan-maintained half-life that I don't fully understand, and has as a part of that process undergone a lot of improvements to most of its systems. I'm planning to give it another try once my backlog clears up a bit. I'm waiting for the next update when they revise the skills to give it another go. Probably still won't stick to it, but I'm curious enough.
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Nov 27, 2023 17:26
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It would be a weird turn of events if Raid WW2 gets a new lease on life as Payday 3 dies. So many things about Raid were just absolutely loving terrible.
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Nov 27, 2023 17:30
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Pirate Jet posted:I mean, PD2 was supposed to “end” at the end of 2017, and then Overkill’s The Walking Dead imploded, and the company went insolvent, so they went back to making DLC for their captive audience two years later so they could buy time while they got a Payday 3 off the ground. Now it’s out after four years of development and it still feels underbaked. They are just not good developers, and they honestly never particularly have been. Absolutely. And yes there's absolutely been some absolute banger GAAS games - I played Warframe and Payday 2 often in parallel over the same period, and Warframe has some really remarkable achievements to its belt. Payday 2 is largely held together by nobody else really touching the concept its going for, which allows it to stumble quite badly with nobody eating their lunch. And in more 'modern' DRG is fantastic and very GAAS, though the GAAS model that I think is the most interesting is EU4, where they released a bajillion DLC and then after the fact made a (quite cheap) subscription, which TBH I think really cuts to the heart of GAAS economic models: they need a constant inflow of cash in order to pay developers for a constant outflow of content, and you can get that from a drip feed of DLCs but that is going to be intrinsically more volatile than "we get x dollars per user per month" like an old MMO.
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Nov 27, 2023 19:38
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Remember when they introduced Captain Winters and said there was gonna be more special characters like him? 
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Nov 27, 2023 21:05
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Croccers posted:Remember when they introduced Captain Winters and said there was gonna be more special characters like him? the dev team are the most special of characters
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Nov 27, 2023 21:12
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For PAYDAY 2 instead of 3
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Lmao at Payday 2 getting more regular and substantial updates than Payday 3 Been thinking about the PD3 launch as compared to Darktide, which similarly launched in what felt like a far too early and not yet ready for primetime state. The difference of course is that we all had fun playing Darktide in spite of the lack of content and there was plenty to keep us busy for ~50 hours or so before we burned out on playing it and we drifted away to other things. The gameplay in PD3 is good but not good enough to make me want to keep playing the same thing over and over without added incentive of fun and interesting unlocks to look forward to or things to spend my money on. I just think they've dug themselves into a huge hole with this shoddy launch and don't really have any faith that they'll turn it around anytime soon, especially after seeing the numbers PD2 is still pulling in daily. explosivo fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Nov 29, 2023 |
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Nov 29, 2023 17:46
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UnknownMercenary posted:It would be a weird turn of events if Raid WW2 gets a new lease on life as Payday 3 dies. So many things about Raid were just absolutely loving terrible. Anyone got a detailed postmortem of Raid? I grabbed it at release and bounced off hard after a few missions, but it'd be interesting to hear what real Payday heads thought of it.
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Nov 30, 2023 14:41
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Gort posted:Anyone got a detailed postmortem of Raid? I grabbed it at release and bounced off hard after a few missions, but it'd be interesting to hear what real Payday heads thought of it. I don't have anything big and detailed, but my big sticking points were that it felt like most weapons were kinda meh and the enemies were big bullet sponges. Like multiple headshots required on dudes without helmets level of bullet sponges. I also only played solo as I never got my crew into it.
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Nov 30, 2023 16:23
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It felt like a really poorly made Payday 2 mod.
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Nov 30, 2023 18:16
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looks like a big patch out, haven't read it yet https://www.paydaythegame.com/news/...eb91d7e6a&gsc=1
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Nov 30, 2023 19:11
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Pharmaskittle posted:looks like a big patch out, haven't read it yet "One difference in the new Cook Off is that it is not endless, the maximum number of bags possible is now capped at 19." Booooooo
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Nov 30, 2023 20:00
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Pharmaskittle posted:looks like a big patch out, haven't read it yet They made it so my crew's resident dumbass can't softlock us on the art gallery, so that's really good. I don't see anything about making the 1911 any better, which is unfortunate.
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Nov 30, 2023 20:37
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My friends and I played the patch: Cookout crashed midheist. Turgid Station gave us no payout despite us getting all but one bag and getting out. We did a penthouse run just to blow off steam about the problems, which also crashed midheist. The changes to the armor skill giving you double means you just need even more armor bags, further emphasizing armor. God drat guys do anything different please
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Dec 2, 2023 00:52
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Apparently people are immediately blowing up the lab on cook off.
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Dec 2, 2023 00:57
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padijun posted:Apparently people are immediately blowing up the lab on cook off. Nature is healing
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Dec 2, 2023 02:58
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Gort posted:Anyone got a detailed postmortem of Raid? I grabbed it at release and bounced off hard after a few missions, but it'd be interesting to hear what real Payday heads thought of it. The Devs: Raid was funded by Starbreeze and produced by Lion Game Lion (LGL), a Croatian studio formed by Overkill employee Ilija Petrusic. Ilija had done a lot of behind the scenes work for overkill from the beginning (he was immortalized ingame by voicing "Ilija, the sniper we hired"). I've interacted directly with him, he's a good egg. LGL had done a fair amount of contract work of Overkill as it was set up, including material for the BBQ weapon pack, driveable vehicles, the Bomb heists and Dragan's weapons and assets, as well as the Golden Grin heist. Other than the BBQ pack, which was well-received, LGL content tended to be conceptually ambitious, but often had an additional layer of jank or dysfunction embedded in it that was resolved over time. This isn't necessarily attributable to a lack of ability on their part; the Diesel engine is difficult to work with and we don't know their level of resourcing. As Bo Andersson continued to approve everything within reach and expand Starbreeze into a publisher, LGL also was involved with the production of little remembered twin-stick game Antisphere, apparently as a subsidiary publisher. All of this was prelude to heavily funding LGL as a full, separate studio to create Raid: WW2 which received a significant amount of hype and crossover support in Payday 2. This notably coincided with the nadir of balance and support decisions for Payday 2, with strong conflict and departures occurring in Overkill staff. The problems: Raid had a laundry list of problems during development and launch, several of which should sound very familiar. In particular, Raid had what I call the "oh, that's why" problem. In an effort to he development team made the critical error of listening to the Payday userbase and implemented a long list of features or functions that were much-requested by Payday 2 fans, only to rediscover why they'd not been implemented in Payday 2. Here's a partial list of ideas promoted in Raid that didn't work (including these fan requests, in bold):
For all of these issues, LGL basically got as far as producing them in the game, then discovered, "Oh, that's why it wasn't done in Payday". I should note Payday 2 was actually experiencing the same problem during this period, as the director in charge of balance at the time, Jules Marquez, was notoriously reactive to the demands of the most vocal streamers, implementing balance tweaks and user-demanded features (like a police captain enemy) that "everyone wanted", but hadn't been included for good reason: they didn't loving work. Many similar bad decisions also appeared in the greatest public Starbreeze failure from this period, Overkill's The Walking Dead. All of the above issues were severe at launch, plus the game just didn't feel finished- it had severe performance issues and needed another six months to a year of time and additional content to be able to have enough momentum to sustain its playerbase. Again, this may sound familiar. But wait! Unlike Jules or other Starbreeze products from the period, LGL slowly chipped away at and either reversed or at least improved many of these issues and added a significant amount of new content before the game stopped getting updates. What's more, a group of fans and the remnant members of LGL (I'm not really clear on the details here) are still, labor-of-love style, plugging away at further major improvements and adding additional missions. A big fix update is on the horizon. I fully intend to get a crew together and give Raid: WW2 a fresh look once it arrives. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Dec 2, 2023 |
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Dec 2, 2023 04:45
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one of the biggest things i remember not liking about raid was that you didn't pick up ammo drops automatically but had to interact with them which i guess was supposed to make things feel more tense and tactical but it just slowed everything down and made things super awkward feeling
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Dec 2, 2023 09:50
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CHEERS for the transporter skill line JEERS for nerfing armor up without making ammo or doc bags viable
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Dec 5, 2023 00:56
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Tried to play the new patch couldn’t find a server for 8 minutes. Ended up on my own. Like the new animations at least.
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Dec 5, 2023 04:39
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The expanded Cook Off is quite confusing - the garage portion is connected to the basement, but it's not very useful or interesting, as cops just don't go there. What the heist does show, is how much more ammo you need as compared to Payday 2 - we were running out of bullets at the 3rd/4th bag. It does show nicely the upgades to Tazers, we fell into so many electromines Keep the hostages alive as long as possible, grenadiers stop showing any remorse as soon as they're gone, and it's not easy to cook at that point. I do like the extra "keep the meth on the burner until it changes color" for extra bag value. A solid heist. The new Murky Station sucksssssssssssss tho. Extra tedium added by the Payday 3 stealth, while engaging more players, requires a lot more moving parts and is annoying as hell. I used the hostage to open the security room on a whim, but when we realized that is now a neccessary step to secure the satelites, it hit us just how difficult the heist has become. This is, again, made more annoying by the lacking hud elements like "how many subroutines I still have left?" or "is the camera I'm looking through looped or not?". I was never a big fan of the Payday 2 version, and Payday 3 does nothing to win me over. For a free update, it's an okay step.
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Dec 6, 2023 11:55
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Kikas posted:The expanded Cook Off is quite confusing - the garage portion is connected to the basement, but it's not very useful or interesting, as cops just don't go there. What the heist does show, is how much more ammo you need as compared to Payday 2 - we were running out of bullets at the 3rd/4th bag. It does show nicely the upgades to Tazers, we fell into so many electromines I have hazy recollections of doing Rats at low level requiring you to be careful with ammo but god, it's so long ago that I don't know if that's just my memory playing tricks on me.
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Dec 6, 2023 12:03
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Oh yeah, and the Cook-Off track is quite solid.
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Dec 6, 2023 12:04
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Kikas posted:The expanded Cook Off is quite confusing - the garage portion is connected to the basement, but it's not very useful or interesting, as cops just don't go there. What the heist does show, is how much more ammo you need as compared to Payday 2 - we were running out of bullets at the 3rd/4th bag. the mower skills for ammo pickup on kill and adding ammo directly to your magazine are absolutely worth it. combine them with the AK47or CAR with a 45 round mag, you will never need to reload again much less pick up ammo
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Dec 7, 2023 21:07
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Fil5000 posted:I have hazy recollections of doing Rats at low level requiring you to be careful with ammo but god, it's so long ago that I don't know if that's just my memory playing tricks on me. The ammo economy has changed in several ways over the game's history. There were points, particularly early, where running out of ammo was the primary fail state, and strategic letting people go into custody to trade them back to get some of their ammo back was a legitimate part of strategy. I remember particularly early on that it was trolling to take less than 6 ammo bags with your crew. Last I was up to date with the meta, the weapons that were considered good for endurance runs were ones that had unusually high pickups - specific LMGs and grenade launchers had unusually high pickups, and while dragonsbreath rounds were not especially economical their sheer staggering utility at clearing (and more importantly, stunning) large groups of cops justified their use. DMRs are a particular category where most of the time they had dogshit ammo economy that made them unviable outside of the exceptionally short heists (which people didnt bother optimizing for) and had a few time periods where their pickups were so reliable it was dubious to use any other conventional weapon.
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Dec 7, 2023 23:19
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https://www.pcgamer.com/den-of-wolves-preview-game-awards/ new game by part of the PDTH/PD2 team, it's the future instead so instead of bank robberies you steal brains or something? could be cool
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Dec 8, 2023 22:37
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padijun posted:https://www.pcgamer.com/den-of-wolves-preview-game-awards/ Oh interesting, so this is their next project now that GTFO is feature complete? Wonder if it'll be as hardcore as GTFO or a bit more lite like Payday: I'm down either way and will keep it on the radar.
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Dec 8, 2023 22:56
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drat that game will be badass
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Dec 10, 2023 05:16
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First paid dlc finally dropped after 7+ hours of server maintenance and uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
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Dec 12, 2023 18:12
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