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RTD seems like he'd be the kind to say 'hey this is a deal-breaker' in the representation front. And if it got out that Disney was trying to remove LGBTQ content from Doctor Who the backlash would be catastrophic, far worse than when they do it to their own shows. But ugh, Disney is probably going to try to fit this into one of their standard demographic target boxes and Doctor Who doesn't really fit theirs. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 05:27 on Nov 28, 2023 |
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Nov 28, 2023 05:25
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Cleretic posted:Given this is RTD Who we're talking about, changing a scene for 'not being jolly enough' is either concerning, or hilariously baffling. If it's a scene that's supposed to be really dark, that sucks but also doesn't quite make sense... but if they looked at Russell T. Davies doing a 'happy ending' scene and decided it wasn't happy enough, what the gently caress are you expecting? Disney only cares about that stuff inasmuch as whether it'll affect movie ticket sales in China (since the Chinese market is one they've desperately been trying to break into; and from what I understand, China has some very restrictive anti-LGBTQ+ laws, to say the least). That's primarily why you've seen them do things like remove or limit characters having any kind of non cis hetero interactions in the Star Wars and Marvel movies. Beyond that, they seemingly don't care if characters in a show are gay or bi or trans or whatnot. And I don't think they're hoping to crack the Chinese market via Doctor Who any time soon. So I wouldn't take that as indicative of RTD having enough pull to demand Disney not make those sorts of changes. Sydney Bottocks fucked around with this message at 05:29 on Nov 28, 2023 |
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Nov 28, 2023 05:27
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Are there any articles with him talking about the change? I looked but found only the American companies comment.Cleretic posted:I can't imagine Disney's input is gonna stop much of anything. No slandering the mouse 1 episode per each doctors run where the doctor goes to disney world 1 disney movie quote per every 5 episodes Mandatory cross over into the mcu and star wars
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Nov 28, 2023 05:27
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Yeah, Davies writes dark poo poo, people die, etc. He'll do happy and fluffy, but he's not scared of sustained tension. Disney loves cutaways to cute animals, lame non-jokes to break tension, etc. It's all tone management to stop their work from having anything approaching an edge, since edge can be alienating and against The Brand. Normally you'd have a bunch of dead extras in an RTD script, or at least have cutaways to families freaking out, feeling fear, etc. Instead there's that gurning kid. Makes me wonder.
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Nov 28, 2023 05:29
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Sydney Bottocks posted:Disney only cares about that stuff inasmuch as whether it'll affect movie ticket sales in China (since the Chinese market is one they've desperately been trying to break into; and from what I understand, China has some very restrictive anti-LGBTQ+ laws, to say the least). Beyond that, they seemingly don't care if characters in a show are gay or bi or trans or whatnot. And I don't think they're hoping to crack the Chinese market via Doctor Who any time soon. Nah, there's a lot of stuff out there on feedback various creators have gotten about cutting back or removing LGBT implications. Although most of what I've seen is in the animated TV division.
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Nov 28, 2023 05:29
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Somebody hasn't seen Andor
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Nov 28, 2023 05:30
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It's not super significant in Andor, though there's queer content there for sure. It's nothing like what we saw in The Star Beast though. On the other hand, they completely cut references to two of their leads being queer in The Marvels.
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Nov 28, 2023 05:31
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Resdfru posted:Somebody hasn't seen Andor Andor is Adult, that's a different kettle of fish. Disney has very different handling of queer content with their Kids vs Teen vs Family vs Adult etc, and Who would definitely be being handled as a family show.
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Nov 28, 2023 05:32
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Resdfru posted:Are there any articles with him talking about the change? I looked but found only the American companies comment. I believe it was from an interview in DW Magazine. quote:Russell: And that’s a good example of Disney notes. They sent us a note on episode one [of the 15th Doctor's first series] that said, “That opening isn’t as much fun as the other episodes.” It was a great note. So I’ve written a new opening – Slippery slope and all that.
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Nov 28, 2023 05:35
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Sorry I shouldnt have posted without explaining lol Andor comment was aimed at the Disney being all jokes and puppies. (it was also not serious cause the comment still applies to almost everything else disney makes) Definitely agree with Disney's track record on LGBT characters or lack thereof Sydney Bottocks posted:I believe it was from an interview in DW Magazine. Ah thank you
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Nov 28, 2023 05:35
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LGBT stuff aside, I wonder what the Disney feedback would've been on, like, Midnight, for example. I can easily see them as pushing the show away from stuff like that.
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Nov 28, 2023 05:37
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MikeJF posted:LGBT stuff aside, I wonder what the Disney feedback would've been on, like, Midnight, for example. I can easily see them as pushing the show away from stuff like that. Yeah, it's not just that it's sustained horror without much comedy, but it's also basically a stage play with little in the way of SFX. IMO they'd never make it. This might also be my bias speaking, but Midnight's also digging a fair bit deeper than most of their family scripts tend to, and seems unafraid to make genuine arguments about how the lead character (the Doctor, obvi) can kind of suck. Most criticism aimed at the leads in what Marvel / Disney stuff I've seen isn't as pointed, or it's couched in a lot of nonsense designed to denature the protagonist's culpability -- except maybe WandVision, but I remember that also kind of soft peddling things tbh. It's not gonna risk being potentially alienating.
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Nov 28, 2023 05:45
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Man it's too bad they can't make Doctor Who with zero compromises whatsoever like... uh... you know... that era when they did that. All commercial art is deeply compromised and always has been. They couldn't get RTD to let up on the fantastic representation, so I'm not going to be worried at all about an anecdote of him filming an extra scene that he is apparently proud of at their suggestion.
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Nov 28, 2023 05:51
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Eiba posted:Man it's too bad they can't make Doctor Who with zero compromises whatsoever like... uh... you know... that era when they did that. This is a frankly staggering level of rationalization. E: I mean "an extra scene that he is apparently proud of". Of course he's "apparently proud" of it. They're giving him money to do the show. What was he supposed to say? "Oh I disagreed with the note completely, and I thought it was a waste of time and money and effort, but I had to do it whether I wanted to or not because they're footing the bill"? Sydney Bottocks fucked around with this message at 06:09 on Nov 28, 2023 |
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Nov 28, 2023 06:02
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Sydney Bottocks posted:This is a frankly staggering level of rationalization. Good? Bad? I don't know, and I'm not going to get worked up about it. Just because the idea for an opening came from a suggestion from a corporation doesn't mean it's a bad idea. If the neo-RTD era feels bland and unadventurous I might blame interference, but I've seen nothing to suggest that's the case in the single episode I've seen. The most meaningful damage a corporation could do- censoring "risky" representation- is clearly not happening. Assuming for no reason the corporation that produced Andor will never be able to produce another Midnight is pointless hand wringing.
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Nov 28, 2023 06:09
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It’s worth keeping an eye on but so far, I mean Star Beast felt very RTD Who and not something with the heavy creative hand of Disney in it. And even the actual quote as to their interference was so vague it could be anything. We don’t know what was cut or what it was replaced with.
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Nov 28, 2023 06:10
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Just blame anything you don't like on Disney, very simple and helpful.
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Nov 28, 2023 06:15
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Eiba posted:I'm not denying anything. It'll be affected for sure. It clearly hasn't happened yet. That's the thing. When someone's paying the money for you to do a show, if they want something changed, you change it, or you don't get to do the show any more. A lot will be riding on how well DW does on D+. If the show's metrics (unknown to us) tank over the next season, you can bet the farm that D+ will be handing RTD and crew a whole bunch more notes all of a sudden. Maxwell Lord posted:It’s worth keeping an eye on but so far, I mean Star Beast felt very RTD Who and not something with the heavy creative hand of Disney in it. What it was, is largely unimportant. It's the fact that Disney, a very problematic company for a lot of people for a lot of reasons, has input into DW, input that is backed by the fact that they're helping finance it. That in itself is enough to make some people very concerned. elf help book posted:Just blame anything you don't like on Disney, very simple and helpful. It's worked for me so far! 
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Nov 28, 2023 06:17
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Also the episode clearly and forcefully went out of its way to say “Trans women are women, gently caress transphobes” and even if minor elements were a little clumsy it’s obviously not something RTD had to compromise to get by anyone.
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Nov 28, 2023 06:18
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Maxwell Lord posted:Also the episode clearly and forcefully went out of its way to say “Trans women are women, gently caress transphobes” and even if minor elements were a little clumsy it’s obviously not something RTD had to compromise to get by anyone. Well, as I said, I'm pretty sure Disney isn't trying to crack the Chinese market by sending DW over there, so they're probably okay with the show doing that sort of thing for the Western market. Again, a lot will depend on how well the new series does on D+.
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Nov 28, 2023 06:21
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MikeJF posted:But ugh, Disney is probably going to try to fit this into one of their standard demographic target boxes and Doctor Who doesn't really fit theirs. I feel like, if Disney was smart about this (a big if), and has the clout to get Who spinoff shows made for them, Doctor Who might work to be 'their version' of how Paramount is doing Star Trek. Several different types of show and story in a unified setting, often aimed at different audiences. Ostensibly they also have Star Wars for that, but they've never successfully used Star Wars for that, since they keep wanting to grab the same audience of 'Star Wars nerds'. ...And are perhaps right on that, because even before Disney went all 'Disney' on it, Star Wars has never really managed to have a wide swathe of different genres be successful.
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Nov 28, 2023 06:21
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I don't think Paramount's done a particularly good job differentiating the various Star Treks either (he posted, not having seen Prodigy). They all feel fairly samey to me, even Lower Decks, which will often just play a lot of poo poo absolutely straight. Or at least there's certainly nothing as wildly different as Torchwood is to RTD's Doctor Who. Sydney Bottocks posted:I mean "an extra scene that he is apparently proud of". Of course he's "apparently proud" of it. They're giving him money to do the show. What was he supposed to say? "Oh I disagreed with the note completely, and I thought it was a waste of time and money and effort, but I had to do it whether I wanted to or not because they're footing the bill"? Yeah, RTD's always had a bit of a carnival barker energy to him, it's his job to sell and spin the show. That production column is him getting ahead of potential criticism. He can't actually be completely honest with his audience, (e.g. denying the once-a-year Dalek appearance), and there are enough NDAs out there that he'd get loving buried if he tried. He always known what his job is and he does a good job of it.
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Nov 28, 2023 06:33
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Prodigy's the only one that's somewhat differentiated in terms of audience. LDS is targeting the core trekkie audience and SNW/Disco are trying to target core plus the casual-scifi-watcher audience (SNW more successfully than Disco). While Prodigy is hitting up the general kids audience (as well the trekkies, who are assumed.) (Although judging by these forums Prodigy lost a lot of the trekkies early on when it seemed very non-Trek in tone and was quite star-wars-esque. In the long run it turned out to be done deliberately so it could explicitly shift from being Wars-like to being Trek-like as an introduction to the franchise for kids. And then turned out to be Voyager season 8 and 9) MikeJF fucked around with this message at 06:51 on Nov 28, 2023 |
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Nov 28, 2023 06:45
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This is still the streaming service that somehow released Andor, so I don’t buy into the automatic doom-and-gloom when it comes to Disney messing with Who. I trust RTD to be able to draw lines in the sand when it comes to what he thinks is nonnegotiable for the show, so I’m just gonna continue to be optimistic until proven otherwise.
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Nov 28, 2023 07:13
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the first 15 episode has them running around trying to save baby yoda
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Nov 28, 2023 07:52
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We don't know who is giving notes either. Disney is a very large company that isn't all just emotionless lawyer drones. They've got some genuinely passionate creative people too. Yeah, they sanded down any edges from Marvel or Star Wars. The also went to war with Florida's governor on defence of their LGBTQ staff. They're a massive company, big enough to hold multiple, contradictory positions at once depending on who's involved. RTD is absolutely capable of writing some stupid poo poo. Having an outsider going 'hey, uh, that's some stupid poo poo' might not be the worst thing, if it's coming from the right sort person for the right reasons. If anything gets sanded down, it's going to be the odd episode where Who show runners randomly decide to try and scare the absolute poo poo out of kids. Not sure how 'but it's tradition!' is going to go down with some American producer who isn't used to their shows randomly trying to traumatise 9 year olds.
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Nov 28, 2023 08:11
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Yeah but those episodes are often the best episodes.
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Nov 28, 2023 08:13
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:Gatwa has apparently openly said that he’d really really like Gillian Anderson to play The Rani at some point during his run, also I didn't know how much I wanted this until now! It also brings up an intriguing point...if Gatwa knows who the Rani is, does that mean he's another superfan like Tennant and Capaldi? usenet celeb 1992 posted:It's really impressive that absolutely nothing has leaked about Wild Blue Yonder even as we're less than a week away. My baseless speculation/hopes: --clerk with a goatee --"the boss" has 2 hearts All I'm hearing here is Sacha Dhawan returning as The Master  It would be neat seeing his giggling, dark edged mania playing out against the more sober 14 (as opposed to 10). He was the best part of the Chibnall era IMO. I can see RTD watching the Rasputin dance and saying "oh yeah, I gotta have more of this!"
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Nov 28, 2023 08:15
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DavidCameronsPig posted:If anything gets sanded down, it's going to be the odd episode where Who show runners randomly decide to try and scare the absolute poo poo out of kids. Not sure how 'but it's tradition!' is going to go down with some American producer who isn't used to their shows randomly trying to traumatise 9 year olds. You can tear Doctor Who scaring the poo poo out of little children from my cold, dead hands, hypothetical Disney representative! 
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Nov 28, 2023 08:21
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I do think the BBC seems to be avoiding any criticism here, but from my reading of this residuals story it's going to have had major input from the BBC/BBC Studios. I actually suspect the putting of all the old episodes onto iPlayer might have had something to do with the renegotiation too. I'm personally more relaxed about the Disney creative input thing than others are. Fundamentally with a naive showrunner I would be more worried but this is by no means Rusty's first rodeo and it's not Julie Gardner's either (I think she is one of the Bad Wolf bosses?) RTD is not lacking in commercial mindset - this is the man who approved officially licensed Frubes - but I think he will also fight for the things that matter. Also I'm fairly sure the IP remains very firmly under the control of the BBC? They may not be doing production in-house but Doctor Who is essentially the crown jewels for them, they won't let it go. (Also, the BBC is also not lacking in pointy-headed bosses who would want to cut pro-trans content: perhaps more than Disney.) So yeah - I understand why people are worried, but there is no indication that the flagship show is going to be any kind of Disney IP in the Marvel vein. What's more interesting is the Whoniverse branding and all the talk of quite a few spinoffs. I do think that point about Star Trek is worth considering. Rusty wanted to do the shared universe thing before it was in vogue, he's been very clear that he never stopped wanting to do it - I think we're going to get yards and yards of Doctor Who spinoffs, almost certainly of variable quality. I could imagine Disney having a much tighter grasp over one or more of them.
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Nov 28, 2023 08:52
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:Gatwa has apparently openly said that he’d really really like Gillian Anderson to play The Rani at some point during his run, also Holy poo poo. Yes!
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Nov 28, 2023 08:58
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FINALLY had a chance to watch it. Knowing the twist in advance, I can say it was Fine, which is better than most of 13's run. Also...how old is Rose Temple supposed to be? Because she looks older than would be possible, given Donna got married in 2009/2010.
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Nov 28, 2023 09:08
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Edward Mass posted:FINALLY had a chance to watch it. Knowing the twist in advance, I can say it was Fine, which is better than most of 13's run. She's supposed to be 15. Yasmin was 19 at filming so it's a bit of a stretch but not ridiculous I think.
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Nov 28, 2023 09:19
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Edward Mass posted:FINALLY had a chance to watch it. Knowing the twist in advance, I can say it was Fine, which is better than most of 13's run. 15-ish, but the actress is now 20. Drift of a couple years if we assume the episode is exactly taking place when aired, but not too bad. It's TV, teenagers are always played by 20-somethings.
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Nov 28, 2023 09:19
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Didn't know the twist, and I really enjoyed it! The more the story moved on, the more I got invested in it (a real contrast to the past three seasons where it became a chore to sit through things) While I prefer my stories a bit darker and my Doctor a bit angrier, I will so happily take this over what's been dished up by Chibnall. It was warm, stupid fun that connects. ...Also felt a bit of a tug on the heartstrings learning UNIT had stepped in to take care of Wilf.
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Nov 28, 2023 09:21
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Cleretic posted:Drift of a couple years if we assume the episode is exactly taking place when aired, but not too bad. 'A Time Thing happened.'
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Nov 28, 2023 09:22
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Well, it wouldn't be RTD without loving with the years again. I'm still frustrated that Aliens of London takes place a year after Rose and is never followed up on again!
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Nov 28, 2023 09:23
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Astroman posted:I didn't know how much I wanted this until now! The Master has had a goatee more often than he hasn't, it could be Simm (and honestly that feels more likely to me for some reason. Hell, it could be Gordon Tipple, he had a goatee in the promo shots. God that'd be funny.
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Nov 28, 2023 09:32
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Turns out the master is David Tennant with a goatee.
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Nov 28, 2023 10:26
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Actually, something else that probably factors with Rose seeming older to people, which is something that's occurred to me in general in my life since I know a lot of trans people: Our mental frameworks for 'how people age' are so unconsciously cisnormative that they just sort of... break when faced with trans people. Not only are you going to be looking at/for markers from both sexes when doing so, HRT just puts in a hell of a lot more subtle work than you expect, and basically means that there's often a whole-rear end second puberty somewhere in that person's history, and you don't know when! Again, Yazmin's at a regular 'TV Actor Playing A Teenager' age (in fact I'd say she's younger than even they tend to be; my ballpark for TV Teens is like mid-20s), so obviously she is older than she's playing. But I wouldn't be terribly surprised if her height and stronger facial features are just throwing people's age estimates completely off in that way.
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Nov 28, 2023 10:54
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