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Nessus posted:So a mutant but not a mutant mutant. A different kind of mutant that didn’t count as a mutant, despite being a mutant well when your entire island society is built on x-gene ethnonationalism there's a difference!
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Nov 28, 2023 22:16
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Air Skwirl posted:As much as I just think Dan Slott is a lovely writer, I can understand him being like "I'm writing Fantastic Four, I don't want Franklin Richards getting sidetracked into a bunch of X-Men stuff I have to then address in my own book" but it was a lovely way to do it, I blame editorial for this poo poo more than Slott, there's a lot of conversations that should have happened between people that didn't happen before Franklin Richards was made "not a mutant." I mean or you can do what every other writer does and ignore or adapt to what's happening to them in other books. Plus the reason Slott did that was because he said he didn't want Franklin to be that powerful because he would be able to solve any crisis without problem. That's showing that Slott isn't creative enough to write around it, so he took the lazy way out.
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Nov 28, 2023 22:21
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site posted:franklin being a "mutant" mutant was always dumb. the kid's parents are two people whose dna got cosmic rayed. you don't need to then go, oh wait but your power actually comes from you also having the x-gene. it's just so unnecessary. maybe slott can come in an un-retcon kamala too I liked that though. Like I liked that there was a major character in the universe who was just a mutant. Marketing stunt or no, Franklin being a mutant meant that a major non-mutant family actually had a mutant kid and might have to deal with that, even if it was just in Days of Future Past. It's genuinely more appealing that no, their kid was just born a normal kid who happened to have an X-Gene.
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Nov 28, 2023 22:22
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site posted:well when your entire island society is built on x-gene ethnonationalism there's a difference! Yeah, and there was honestly a lot to be done with "a prominent 'mutant' who has lived as a mutant and thought they were a mutant is not technically a mutant; what do we do?" but apparently they didn't want to do that.
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Nov 28, 2023 22:35
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site posted:franklin being a "mutant" mutant was always dumb. the kid's parents are two people whose dna got cosmic rayed. you don't need to then go, oh wait but your power actually comes from you also having the x-gene. it's just so unnecessary. maybe slott can come in an un-retcon kamala too I'm pretty sure I've said this here before but my defining "what is a mutant" is depicted in the 80's house ad with the "Do you know what your children are?" The idea that the x-gene just shows up when the right combination of genes happens is good and makes it seem dangerous. That Reed and Sue or Peter and Mary Jane or even Scott and Jean would have a kid and have it automatically be a mutant is lazy to me. But I also understand that in serial storytelling, making coincidences and connections happen is a thing that's just going to happen because people want to tell stories that are revelations and world-breaking or whatever. That said, I've always like Franklin as a mutant and it sucks that Slott couldn't figure out a way to tell stories without his powers get in the way.
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Nov 28, 2023 22:55
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ImpAtom posted:I liked that though. Like I liked that there was a major character in the universe who was just a mutant. Marketing stunt or no, Franklin being a mutant meant that a major non-mutant family actually had a mutant kid and might have to deal with that, even if it was just in Days of Future Past. It's genuinely more appealing that no, their kid was just born a normal kid who happened to have an X-Gene. Agreed 100%. Marvel is often quite bad at integrating aspects into their universe unless it's a specific event. You don't see, say, a blue person or a bird guy walking around NYC during a casual Fantastic Four establishing panel to make it clear that this is the world and mutants are a thing in it, even outside of the X-books.
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Nov 28, 2023 23:22
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At this point, I just assume any reality warper gets to decide whether or not they have an X-Gene, and that decision applies retroactively. It explains Franklin, it explains Scarlet Witch, an it's currently explaining Gwenpool.
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Nov 28, 2023 23:34
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ImpAtom posted:I liked that though. Like I liked that there was a major character in the universe who was just a mutant. Marketing stunt or no, Franklin being a mutant meant that a major non-mutant family actually had a mutant kid and might have to deal with that, even if it was just in Days of Future Past. It's genuinely more appealing that no, their kid was just born a normal kid who happened to have an X-Gene. for me the thing is, he's already a mutant even without the x-gene. the story of parents having to deal with a child that has mutated dna and powers and you just have to deal with that is built in with franklin. there's stories to tell about a child who is a mutant by birth but does not have the x-gene and how they interact with "mutant" society. even the juxtaposition of one child having powers and the other not is there with valeria. but because marvel has written itself into an awkward corner where if you want to have characters in the x-men playground they're only allowed to have an x-gene so well if we want to call franklin a mutant we have to give him an x-gene
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Nov 28, 2023 23:45
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If there's no x-gene they are a human mutate (unrelated to Magneto's Mutates of course) whether or not their powers were present since birth, that's the term of art that has been around in Marvel for ages. I don't know that it's ever been a thing stated in the comics but that's been the way the distinction has been drawn for, decades probably.
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Nov 28, 2023 23:57
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rantmo posted:If there's no x-gene they are a human mutate (unrelated to Magneto's Mutates of course) whether or not their powers were present since birth, that's the term of art that has been around in Marvel for ages. I don't know that it's ever been a thing stated in the comics but that's been the way the distinction has been drawn for, decades probably. From his place in the hereafter, Mark Gruenwald is nodding furiously.
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Nov 29, 2023 00:07
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rantmo posted:If there's no x-gene they are a human mutate (unrelated to Magneto's Mutates of course) whether or not their powers were present since birth, that's the term of art that has been around in Marvel for ages. I don't know that it's ever been a thing stated in the comics but that's been the way the distinction has been drawn for, decades probably. Yeah and it's a very strange distinction borne of the fact that up until the current orchis arc apparently every person in the 616 had a built in x-gene detector in their eyes and would only be bigoted against x-gene people, because apparently it never occurred to writers that bigots are gonna be assholes to random people born with powers and treat them the same whether or not they have a DNA test in their hands
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Nov 29, 2023 00:35
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It's not strange at all, no writers have cared enough to delve into it meaningfully. That's not a value judgement and I agree that it's a really interesting vein of story that remains untapped but them's the breaks.
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Nov 29, 2023 00:45
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I'd rather just choose to believe that Slott somehow thinks there's a meaningful distinction between Franklin and characters like Broo, Fantomex, Deadpool, Danger and so on (other than, "this is the one I'm writing")
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Nov 29, 2023 02:05
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OnimaruXLR posted:I'd rather just choose to believe that Slott somehow thinks there's a meaningful distinction between Franklin and characters like Broo, Fantomex, Deadpool, Danger and so on (other than, "this is the one I'm writing") Deadpool isn't a capital M Mutant last I checked. I sorta think the same is true of Danger but I'm not sure, last I saw he she was the villain in a Wolverine story (that heavily featured Deadpool and was why he was brought into X-Force). Pre-Fall of X Krakoan government was super anti-robot, but was shown to grow in other ways like when Gabby died Hope was like "nope, gently caress your no resurrecting clones rules, we're bringing her back" same with Madelyne Pryor. Broo is definitely a mutant, not sure on Fantomex. I think if Orchis hadn't blown up Krakoa there's a definite chance they would have brought sentient robots into the fold of mutandom
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Nov 29, 2023 02:36
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Is there a reason why Krakoa would be anti-robot in particular? Moira's thing was prepping mutant-kind to last far enough into the future to beat out the robots and post-humans for Dominionhood (until it wasn't), but I would have assumed she was keeping that part close to the chest. Obviously Sentinels and Nimrod are a sore spot, but I can't think of instances of Krakoa being against robots as a rule.
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Nov 29, 2023 02:57
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rantmo posted:It's not strange at all, no writers have cared enough to delve into it meaningfully. That's not a value judgement and I agree that it's a really interesting vein of story that remains untapped but them's the breaks. There was a bit of exploration of this idea in Generation M, a post-House of M mini series. It followed several mutants who lost their powers and how they looked at the concept of "mutant". Rochallor posted:I can't think of instances of Krakoa being against robots as a rule. Hell, the island is half-robot anyway as we learned in Inferno
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Nov 29, 2023 03:32
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site posted:Yeah and it's a very strange distinction borne of the fact that up until the current orchis arc apparently every person in the 616 had a built in x-gene detector in their eyes and would only be bigoted against x-gene people, because apparently it never occurred to writers that bigots are gonna be assholes to random people born with powers and treat them the same whether or not they have a DNA test in their hands This is definitely not the first time someone who look "like a mutant" has been attacked despite not being a mutant. There was a story in Generation X where they go to save a kid in a school who is very clearly "different" but turns out to not be a mutant at all. Spider-Man has had backlash here and there for having powers (admittedly most from Jameson). It's not well-explored, but there's been stories about it.
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Nov 29, 2023 04:02
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GOD IS BED posted:There was a bit of exploration of this idea in Generation M, a post-House of M mini series. It followed several mutants who lost their powers and how they looked at the concept of "mutant". There has been such cool stuff about Mutant culture that never has had a chance to breathe, it's a real shame and also probably not very interesting to enough people to really be practical. drat shame, though.
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Nov 29, 2023 04:11
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rantmo posted:There has been such cool stuff about Mutant culture that never has had a chance to breathe, it's a real shame and also probably not very interesting to enough people to really be practical. drat shame, though. It was the earlier version of doing neat things with Jubilee when she lost her powers. She headed up a version of the New Warriors.
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Nov 29, 2023 16:00
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I can't help but think of that one Fantastic Four page where Reed admits to a young Valeria that he made his friends celebrities so they wouldn't be freaks. Which is a vein of Marvel world building I wish more stories would plumb. Because yeah, bigots don't understand nuance. They wouldn't be able to tell whether a person with super powers or a strange look is a mutant, inhuman, deviant, alien refugee, freak science accident, magical/mythical being etc. But bigots are also irrational, and thus inconsistent. I could absolutely see someone who hates mutants being a big Captain America fan, the same way many racists are able to enjoy certain Black celebrities, or befriend or date Black individuals they consider "one of the good ones". The difference comes down to marketing. Most heroes and villains are one off accidents or unique individuals, with most hero's going out of their way to endear themselves to the public. Mutants, on the other hand, claim to be the next step in evolution. They are literally here to replace you. Their very existence is a direct threat to you, random civilian. And they can pop up anywhere. Odds are slim your child, coworker, or romantic partner will get bitten by a radioactive spider or take super soldier serum. But mutants? There are more and more of those every year. And like in real life, the powers that be would be motivated to further alienate these perceived threats, using their resources to stoke public fears of "the mutant menace within". So yeah, while it's not logical, I find the alienation of mutants above those of other super powered individuals to be surprisingly realistic.
glitchwraith fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Nov 29, 2023 |
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Nov 29, 2023 17:37
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So they pulled the trigger in X-men blue: As expected, mystique is the dad. Destiny is the mom which makes all her behavior toward Nightcrawler that much funnier. Why does he have the same power set and appearance as Azazel? Who knows. Best guess, carcinisation, but for mutants. Tail and teleportation is the x-gene end state.
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Nov 29, 2023 17:42
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glitchwraith posted:Mutants, on the other hand, claim to be the next step in evolution. They are literally here to replace you. Their very existence is a direct threat to you, random civilian. And they can pop up anywhere. Honestly, I think people who argue that it doesn't make sense why the FF would be okay to an anti-mutant bigot but the X-Men wouldn't are either unaware of the in-universe explanation here or are purposely ignoring it. It's pretty simple. Also, though I am not a big fan of the Morrison run, I do love how well they connected the onset of mutant powers to puberty. I think an underexplored aspect of mutantdom is how a 30 year old para-military soldier who can become a nuclear bomb is actually WAY LESS SCARY than a 14 year old with the same power. That mutants not only can come from anywhere but also appear suddenly as teenagers is terrifying.
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Nov 29, 2023 18:32
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Caros posted:So they pulled the trigger in X-men blue: Unrelated Mutants can have similar powers.
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Nov 29, 2023 19:55
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Caros posted:So they pulled the trigger in X-men blue: It's loving hilarious to me that Marvel editorial finely said yes to this, but Spider-Man still isn't allowed to be married to MJ.
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Nov 29, 2023 20:04
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Caros posted:
Ironically convergent evolution was part of Chuck Austen's inspiration for the Draco. The idea of unrelated mutants happening to evolve similarly, and creating sub-species as a result. But as far as Nightcrawler looking like Azazel and having the same powers, they address this in the comic. Raven was mimicking men in her life when she and Destiny did the deed, partly subconsciously, and partly as a result of Destiny's machinations. Apparently this allowed her to pass on part of Azazel's DNA. Just, uh, don't worry about how she's able to pass on mutant powers to her offspring despite not being able to mimic those powers herself.
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Nov 29, 2023 20:14
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Also she said that nightcrawler was born to make sure Azreal did not take over the world, so he had to assume he was his son
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Nov 29, 2023 20:24
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glitchwraith posted:Ironically convergent evolution was part of Chuck Austen's inspiration for the Draco. The idea of unrelated mutants happening to evolve similarly, and creating sub-species as a result. Yeah I know. The crab joke just got stuck in my head. bobkatt013 posted:Also she said that nightcrawler was born to make sure Azreal did not take over the world, so he had to assume he was his son This is one of those baffling things. Azazel is going to take over the world? Really?
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Nov 29, 2023 20:27
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Caros posted:Yeah I know. The crab joke just got stuck in my head. He will make everyone read the draco and it will cause their heads to blow up scanners style to protect ourselves
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Nov 29, 2023 20:35
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Are there any times where Nightcrawler and Rogue address the fact they are kinda siblings?
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Nov 29, 2023 20:37
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Air Skwirl posted:Are there any times where Nightcrawler and Rogue address the fact they are kinda siblings? I'm pretty sure it's come up a few times. Wasn't Rogue and Grayden Creed present when Nightcrawler first found out about his relation to Mystique? Caros posted:Yeah I know. The crab joke just got stuck in my head. In all fairness, it was a good joke.
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Nov 29, 2023 20:43
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glitchwraith posted:I'm pretty sure it's come up a few times. Wasn't Rogue and Grayden Creed present when Nightcrawler first found out about his relation to Mystique? Yeah. Mystique set a bomb for Graydon and Kurt found out then because Creed told him when everybody else danced around it. The retcon means that the private investigator who told Graydon "the truth" (Mystique was married to a rich count who kicked her out when she had a baby who looked like Kurt) just fed him the biggest line of baloney.
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Nov 29, 2023 21:07
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Air Skwirl posted:Are there any times where Nightcrawler and Rogue address the fact they are kinda siblings? Usually it amounts to them going "Weird right?" "Yeahhhh" I kinda hated this X-Men Blue. I don't buy Mystique as... well, not being a 99.9% selfish monster, basically. Like I buy that she cares for Rogue and Destiny but beyond that she's always been like a nightmare fusion of a spy novel femme fatale and Lucille Bluth. Like Archer's mom, except way worse. This seems like a lot of narrative gymnastics to try and soften that edge. And considering that the main point seems to have been canonizing that Mystique is the father Destiny is the mother bit, I don't even see why it was necessary. You could do that and not have to contrive all this dubiously in-character gnashing of teeth and angst. Because they're both awful! And it's not even like that makes them the worst X-Men adjacent psuedo allies! Vulcan, Sinister, and Apocalypse are still on the Christmas card list, probably. To be honest, taking the long view, I haven't been super into Spurrier's Kurt, either. A little too heavy on the holy roller and lacking in all the stuff that I liked about him, which is basically everything else. Makes him feel like a less entertaining, mutant aligned version of Daredevil. Especially with the sleeping around.
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Nov 29, 2023 21:14
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Sinister has to be off the Christmas card list by now.
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Nov 29, 2023 21:19
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OnimaruXLR posted:I kinda hated this X-Men Blue. I don't buy Mystique as... well, not being a 99.9% selfish monster, basically. Like I buy that she cares for Rogue and Destiny but beyond that she's always been like a nightmare fusion of a spy novel femme fatale and Lucille Bluth. Like Archer's mom, except way worse. This seems like a lot of narrative gymnastics to try and soften that edge. Eh, I don't think this softens her that much, given she still admits to murdering a large percentage of her lovers. All this does is explain her mixed feelings about Kurt through the years. That said, it's fair criticism that this story mainly exists as a continuity patch. glitchwraith fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Nov 29, 2023 |
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Nov 29, 2023 21:20
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OnimaruXLR posted:Usually it amounts to them going "Weird right?" "Yeahhhh" Yeah, I genuinely can't think of a time they really act like siblings (which is valid, given their respective upbringings). I think there was more of that in X-Men Evolution.
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Nov 29, 2023 21:27
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Air Skwirl posted:Are there any times where Nightcrawler and Rogue address the fact they are kinda siblings? Given Kurt's history with Amanda Sefton maybe its better they didnt
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Nov 29, 2023 21:30
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Alaois posted:Given Kurt's history with Amanda Sefton maybe its better they didnt I mean, that would be less gross than the Amanda Sefton stuff, but I'd feel bad for Gambit.
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Nov 29, 2023 21:33
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the retcon itself is a bit awkward, but the new version is just plain better.
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Nov 29, 2023 21:38
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The art was better in Realm of X this week but ultimately it seemed like a pretty pointless mini. I have no idea why this shadow man is summoning muppets but they don't seem to show up later in the book anyway.
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Nov 29, 2023 23:24
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X-Men Blue was great, imo. So the way it works, I think is as such: Mystique probably COULD mimic powers, per Dr. Nemesis's data page. She just doesn't and won't submit herself to testing or being trained to because gently caress you, she's Mystique. She mimicked DNA from both Azazel and Christian Wagner during the conception so Kurt is genetically related to four different parents. As for bad X-Men art, how about Butthead Scarlet Witch from the current Infinite series? 
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Nov 29, 2023 23:41
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