War in Ukraine CE: The Golf War

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(Thread IKs: fatherboxx)

spankmeister: Jun 15, 2008

GhostofJohnMuir posted:

i hadn't seen it posted, but the pbs/frontline documentary on the experience of the ukrainian ap's team during the first 3 weeks of the siege of mauripol is up on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvAyykRvPBo

Video seems to be gone.

Was it on the official PBS channel or a random account?

I sure hope it wasn't removed by YouTube after a bunch of bots flooding the report feature or some bullshit like that. 😡

# ? Nov 29, 2023 06:27

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 12:19

the holy poopacy: May 16, 2009; hey! check this out; Fun Shoe

Mr. Apollo posted:

I don�t remember exactly what region it was, but supposedly several army commanders sent their solders out on exercises in the days leading up to the invasion. They refused to recall them even when the soldiers were asking if they should return and set up defensive positions in preparation for an invasion. I believe those commanders also disappeared after the invasion started.

Kherson definitely had issues with troops being out on exercise and caught out of position, not sure how deep the rumors go though.

# ? Nov 29, 2023 06:36

Flappy Bert: Dec 11, 2011; I have seen the light, and it is a string

spankmeister posted:

Video seems to be gone.

Was it on the official PBS channel or a random account?

I sure hope it wasn't removed by YouTube after a bunch of bots flooding the report feature or some bullshit like that. 😡

It's on the main Frontline account at https://www.youtube.com/@frontline, maybe a region issue?

# ? Nov 29, 2023 07:11

GhostofJohnMuir: Aug 14, 2014; anime is not good

putin made another speech today that reiterates his ethnic ideology based rationale for the war. a summary from isw

quote:

Russian President Vladimir Putin reiterated a two-part conception of Russian identity in a speech on November 28: a �Russian nation� � claimed to include Russians, Ukrainians, and Belarusians � at the center of Russian identity; and a wider �Russian world� including other non-East Slavic ethnicities in both modern Russia and the former territory of the Soviet Union and Russian Empire. Putin made a lengthy speech on Russian identity at the World Russian People�s Council on November 28. Putin reiterated his previous false claims that the �Russian nation� and people are composed of ethnic Russians, Belarusians, and Ukrainians who were artificially and violently divided via policy miscalculations during and after the fall of the Soviet Union, arguing Russia (the state) should unify this �Russian nation.�

Putin defined the concept of the Russkiy Mir as a union of people who feel a spiritual connection to the �Motherland,� consider themselves to be native Russian speakers, and are carriers of Russian history and culture regardless of their national or religious affiliation. Putin, however, pointed out that there cannot be Russia (as a state) or the Russkiy Mir without ethnic Russians and implied that current Russian citizens and �all other peoples who have lived and are living in [Russia]� make up Russia. Putin geographically defined the Russkiy Mir as the Ancient Rus� (Kyivan Rus), the Kingdom of Muscovy, the Russian Empire, the Soviet Union, and the contemporary Russian Federation, indicating that the Kremlin�s concept likely also includes �Russian compatriots� in Eastern Europe, the Caucasus, and Central Asia.

Putin also expanded his definition of �Western Russophobia� to include claimed aggression against other ethnicities such as Tatars, Chechens, Yakuts, and Buryats, in addition to ethnic Russians. Putin also called on Russian federal subjects to strengthen and protect Russia�s cultural and religious diversity. Putin previously outlined similar definitions of �ethnically Russian people� in his �Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians� essay in July 2021. Putin�s November 28 speech draws a clear distinction between Putin�s vision of the Russian nation as a �triune people� composed of Russians, Belarusians, and Ukrainians, while other regional identities in Russia make up Russia as a country and shared �Russian world.� Putin�s articulation of a Russian nation (including Ukrainians and dominated by Moscow) reiterates longstanding Kremlin justifications for its invasion of Ukraine and aggression toward its neighbors, and Putin�s claim that �western Russophobia� affects all the ethnicities in the Russian state is likely intended to rally support among Russian citizens who are not ethnically Russian for Putin�s war.

a muddled mess of fake historicity invented out of mid-air by a revanchist intelligence agent to justify why he has to re-create the colonial empire of his youth. if russia is trying to lay the groundwork for a minsk 3 style frozen conflict some time next year, putin's rhetoric certainly isn't in alignment

Qtotonibudinibudet posted:

anyway ignoring that dude it's a good portrait of the psychological response of the populace and their handling of the situation. serious injuries are blurred fwiw; it's well able to communicate its point through the reactions of the healthcare workers without being visually explicit

yes, i would not call it gory, but seeing the grief, and fear, and confusion from everyone on camera, it's viscerally upsetting. at least for me

spankmeister posted:

Video seems to be gone.

Was it on the official PBS channel or a random account?

I sure hope it wasn't removed by YouTube after a bunch of bots flooding the report feature or some bullshit like that. 😡

it's on the official frontline channel, and still playable for me, not sure what's up

# ? Nov 29, 2023 07:41

Qtotonibudinibudet: Nov 7, 2011; Omich poluyobok, skazhi ty narkoman? ya prosto tozhe gde to tam zhivu, mogli by vmeste uyobyvat' narkotiki

unrelated to most everything important but, russian government websites have been mostly blackholing US-origin traffic for a while now, right? this isn't some weird nonsense that only affects me? kremlin.ru (though en.kremlin.ru is fine), rzd.ru, minjust.gov.ru, etc. have all been dropping all attempts to connect when ive tried to check stuff recently, and iirc that's been the case for a while. largely irrelevant since it's possible, but rather annoying to circumvent. offhand it appears to be wider in that DigitalOcean's Bangalore datacenter was seeing the same when i spun something up there to see if it was just US origins

i can't recall reading about it anywhere, and was curious if someone had seen reporting on it. i'd be interested in seeing reporting on exactly what networks are getting blocked and probing to try and black box analysis of how from someone with the ability to conduct detailed probes from a lot of sources

failing that, old niche content about computer network shenanigans that's presumably relevant again in the newly-occupied territories that i should rewatch; it was a good talk back in 2018

# ? Nov 29, 2023 08:24

spankmeister: Jun 15, 2008

Flappy Bert posted:

It's on the main Frontline account at https://www.youtube.com/@frontline, maybe a region issue?

GhostofJohnMuir posted:

it's on the official frontline channel, and still playable for me, not sure what's up

Thanks both. It was a region issue. I thought it was something else because it didn't give the usual "this video is unavailable in your region" or whatever the error usually is, just a generic error. I used a US VPN and it was fine. Downloaded it for later watching.

# ? Nov 29, 2023 08:37

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Qtotonibudinibudet posted:

unrelated to most everything important but, russian government websites have been mostly blackholing US-origin traffic for a while now, right? this isn't some weird nonsense that only affects me? kremlin.ru (though en.kremlin.ru is fine), rzd.ru, minjust.gov.ru, etc. have all been dropping all attempts to connect when ive tried to check stuff recently, and iirc that's been the case for a while. largely irrelevant since it's possible, but rather annoying to circumvent. offhand it appears to be wider in that DigitalOcean's Bangalore datacenter was seeing the same when i spun something up there to see if it was just US origins

i can't recall reading about it anywhere, and was curious if someone had seen reporting on it. i'd be interested in seeing reporting on exactly what networks are getting blocked and probing to try and black box analysis of how from someone with the ability to conduct detailed probes from a lot of sources

failing that, old niche content about computer network shenanigans that's presumably relevant again in the newly-occupied territories that i should rewatch; it was a good talk back in 2018

Works for me at the moment. Have you tried connecting with a VPN out of Russia? Maybe they are down occasionally for everyone.

# ? Nov 29, 2023 09:06

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

GhostofJohnMuir posted:

putin made another speech today that reiterates his ethnic ideology based rationale for the war. a summary from isw

a muddled mess of fake historicity invented out of mid-air by a revanchist intelligence agent to justify why he has to re-create the colonial empire of his youth. if russia is trying to lay the groundwork for a minsk 3 style frozen conflict some time next year, putin's rhetoric certainly isn't in alignment

yes, i would not call it gory, but seeing the grief, and fear, and confusion from everyone on camera, it's viscerally upsetting. at least for me

it's on the official frontline channel, and still playable for me, not sure what's up

Here is the full translated text
Address by�the�President of�the�Russian Federation

en.kremlin.ru posted:

Vladimir Putin addressed, via videoconference, the�plenary session of�the�World Russian People�s Council.

Patriarch Kirill of�Moscow and�All Russia, as�well as�representatives of�the�Russian Orthodox Church and�other centralised religious organisations of�Russia, government bodies, public associations, prominent academic and�cultural figures took part in�the�event.

***

President of�Russia Vladimir Putin: Your Holiness, friends,

I�would like to�welcome all the�participants in�the�World Russian People�s Council.

The�Council was established in�1993. We remember that time as�a�very difficult turning point for�the�country. The�Council managed to�unite around a�common set of�goals representatives of�the�Russian Orthodox Church and�other religious organisations, political parties and�movements, cultural workers, scholars and�scientists, entrepreneurs and�people of�different beliefs, views and�ethnicities who were nonetheless united in�one important respect, in�their firmly rooted patriotism.

First of�all, I�want to�thank you for�your support and�contribution to�strengthening the�Russian state, civil peace and�accord, and�consolidating society, and�for�the�help you always offer to�your compatriots and�everybody who is part of�the�big Russian world.

I�know that many representatives of�the�World Russian People�s Council are currently in�Donbass and�Novorossiya as�volunteers and�members of�military units, protecting our brothers and�sisters, millions of�people in�the�Donetsk and�Lugansk people�s republics, the�Kherson and�Zaporozhye regions, alongside their brothers-in-arms. I�sincerely value the�help that the�World Russian People�s Council provides to�the�front and�the�families of�our fallen heroes. They fought for�us and�for�our Motherland. They will rest in�peace and�remain in�our memory for�eternity. Let us observe a�moment of�silence.

(A�moment of�silence.)

Friends, our fight for�sovereignty and�justice is, without exaggeration, one of�national liberation, because we are upholding the�security and�well-being of�our people, and�our supreme historical right to�be Russia�� a�strong independent power, a�civilisation state. It is our country, it is the�Russian world that has blocked the�way of�those who aspired to�world domination and�exceptionalism, as�it has happened many times in�history.

We are now fighting not just for�Russia's freedom but for�the�freedom of�the�whole world. We can frankly say that the�dictatorship of�one hegemon is becoming decrepit. We see it, and�everyone sees it now. It is getting out of�control and�is simply dangerous for�others. This is now clear to�the�global majority. But again, it is our country that is now at�the�forefront of�building a�fairer world order. And�I�would like to�stress this: without a�sovereign and�strong Russia, no lasting and�stable international system is possible.

We know the�threat we are opposing. Russophobia and�other forms of�racism and�neo-Nazism have almost become the�official ideology of�Western ruling elites. They are directed not only against ethnic Russians, but against all groups living in�Russia: Tatars, Chechens, Avars, Tuvinians, Bashkirs, Buryats, Yakuts, Ossetians, Jews, Ingush, Mari and�Altai. There are many of�us, I�might not be able to�name every group now, but again, the�threat is directed against all the�peoples of�Russia.

The�West has no need for�such a�large and�multi-ethnic country as�Russia as�a�matter of�principle. Our diversity and�unity of�cultures, traditions, languages, and�ethnicities simply do not fit into the�logic of�Western racists and�colonisers, into their cruel plans for�total depersonalisation, separation, suppression, and�exploitation. That is why they have started their old rant again: they say that Russia is a��prison of�nations� and�that Russians are a��nation of�slaves.� We have heard this many times throughout the�centuries. Now we have also heard that Russia apparently needs to�be �decolonised.� But what do they really want? They want to�dismember and�plunder Russia. If they cannot do it by�force, they sow discord.

I�would like to�emphasise that we view any outside interference or�provocations to�incite ethnic or�religious conflict as�acts of�aggression against our country, and�an�attempt to�once again wield terrorism and�extremism as�a�weapon against us, and�we will respond accordingly.

We have a�large and�diverse country. This diversity of�cultures, traditions and�customs creates greater strength, a�tremendous competitive advantage and�potential. We must continuously strengthen it, treasure this diverse accord, which is our common asset. I�would like all the�regional governors to�focus on�this, and�I�count on�the�authority of�the�pastors in�our traditional religions and�the�responsibility of�all political forces and�public organisations.

I�believe we all remember, and�must remember, the�lessons of�the�1917 revolution, the�subsequent Civil War, and�the�disintegration of�the�USSR in�1991. It may seem like many years have passed since then, but people of�all ethnicities living today, even those born in�the�21st century are still paying now, decades later, for�the�miscalculations made at�that time�� indulgences in�separatist illusions, the�weakness of�the�central authority, and�a�policy of�artificial, forced division in�this large Russian nation, a�triune of�Russians, Belarusians and�Ukrainians. The�bloody conflicts that emerged after the�Russian Empire and�the�Soviet Union not only continue to�smoulder but sometimes flare up with renewed energy. These wounds will not be healed for�a�long time.

We will never forget these mistakes and�should not repeat them. I�would like to�emphasise once again�� any attempt to�sow ethnic or�religious discord, to�split our society is betrayal, a�crime against all of�Russia. We will never allow anyone to�divide Russia�� the�only country we have. Our prayers are for�this, our homeland, and�they are expressed in�different languages.

I�would like to�recall for�this audience the�words of�St Gregory of�Nazianzus: �Honouring your mother is a�sacred thing. But everyone has their own mother, whereas the�Motherland is our common mother.�

Your Holiness, colleagues. The�theme of�this Council session is �The�Present and�Future of�the�Russian World.� The�Russian world embraces all generations of�our predecessors and�our descendants that will live after us. The�Russian world means Ancient Rus, the�Tsardom�of�Muscovy, the�Russian Empire, the�Soviet Union, and�modern Russia that is reclaiming, consolidating, and�augmenting its sovereignty as�a�global power. The�Russian World unites all those who feel a�spiritual affinity with our Motherland, who consider themselves Russian speakers, and�carriers of�Russian history and�culture regardless of�their ethnicity or�religion.

But I�would like to�emphasise that the�Russian world and�Russia itself do not and�cannot exist without Russians as�an�ethnicity, without the�Russian people. This statement does not contain any claim to�superiority, exclusivity or�chosenness. This is simply a�fact just like our Constitution�s clear definition of�the�status of�the�Russian language as�the�language of�a�state-forming nation.

Being Russian is more than a�nationality. By�the�way, this has always been the�case throughout our country�s history. Among other things, it includes cultural, spiritual, and�historical identity. Being Russian is, above all, a�responsibility. To�reiterate, it is about the�enormous responsibility to�safeguard Russia, and�this is what true patriotism is all about. As�a�Russian, I�am here to�say that only a�united, strong, and�sovereign Russia can guarantee the�future and�independent development of�the�Russian people and�all other peoples who have lived within the�borders of�our country for�centuries and�are united by�a�common historical destiny.

What does sovereignty mean for�our state, for�each family, and�for�each person? What is its value and�true essence? Primarily, it is freedom. Freedom for�Russia and�our people and, therefore, for�each one of�us, because in�our tradition, a�person cannot feel free unless his loved ones, his children and�his Fatherland are free. Our soldiers and�officers, men and�women of�our country, are defending this genuine freedom.

A�free nation that understands its responsibility before current and�future generations is the�only source of�power, sovereign power, which is called upon to�serve all people, rather than someone�s private, corporate, class, or�even foreign interests.

A�truly free person is a�creator. We will support everyone's aspiration to�be useful to�the�country, society, and�people. This is what sovereign development in�the�national interests is made of.

We are faced with the�daunting task of�developing vast areas from the�Pacific to�the�Baltic Sea and�the�Black Sea. Our economy, industry, agriculture, innovative industries, creative industries, and�national businesses must increase their capacity multiple times over.

I�am now reaching out to�entrepreneurs who I�know are many in�this audience. I�would like to�thank you, friends, for�your coordinated efforts. We have thwarted the�unprecedented economic aggression of�the�West by�uniting the�efforts of�the�state and�business. Its sanctions Blitzkrieg has failed.

Russia will step up support for�sovereign national entrepreneurship. We have fundamentally new tools being developed for�that right now. Invest in�Russia, create new jobs, expand production, and�participate in�personnel training. If you do that, the�national economy will grow, creating more success and�opportunities for�your companies. By�focusing on�strengthening sovereignty, national businesses are growing stronger and�more sovereign themselves as�they shed dependence on�the�components of�the�current world order.

The�sovereign development of�the�country, its economy, business, the�social sector should bring well-being to�all people, all Russian families, and, thus, be fair. This is not about a�primitive one-size-fits-all approach. Justice means primarily decent living conditions, modern facilities for�culture, healthcare and�sports in�all regions of�the�country. This means a�qualified and�well-paid job and�high public prestige for�workers, engineers, teachers, doctors, artists, cultural figures, entrepreneurs, every responsible specialist and�master. Justice means equal, broad opportunities for�study, for�a�start in�life and�self-fulfilment for�youth.

The�West is now pursuing a��cancel culture� policy, but this is, in�fact, a�renunciation of�humanitarian education. As�a�result, both culture and�education are becoming primitive. Many traditional subjects are simply being thrown out of�Western academic programmes and�replaced by�some gender or�other similar sciences�� pseudo sciences, of�course. In�the�meantime, we need a�real breakthrough in�cultural life. And�we have a�lot to�learn in�this respect from our predecessors that set the�tone for�the�entire world in�both traditional and, by�the�way, avant-garde art. I�am convinced that the�country�s sovereignty and�strengthening its role in�the�world are impossible without a�flourishing, distinctive culture in�all of�its manifestations.

And, of�course, we should take all the�best achievements made by�the�domestic and�global systems of�traditional education. Importantly, our schools and�universities must be modern and�open to�all advanced ideas.

We need an�integral holistic approach to�education with family, education, national culture, children�s, youth, sports and�military-patriotic organisations, large-scale mentoring movements; and�let me add, the�wise word of�our spiritual clergy harmoniously supplement each other. The�latter is simply essential.

Yes, the�Church is separate from the�state and�the�Patriarch [Kirill] has told me more than once that despite this fact we have developed unique relations between the�Church and�the�state. I�would like to�note in�this context that the�Church cannot be separated from society or�from people. I�fully agree with this. And�this is why I�would like to�emphasise again the�importance of�the�participation of�representatives of�all traditional Russian religions in�the�education and�upbringing of�our youth, and�of�course, in�the�consolidation of�spiritual, moral, and�family values. The�involvement of�the�clergy from all traditional religions is an�enduring value.

Your Holiness, friends,

You know that the�Executive Order declaring next year�� 2024�� the�Year of�the�Family in�Russia has already been signed. And�I�would like to�say that this decision is indeed based on�the�position of�the�absolute majority of�our society. I�am sure the�World Russian People�s Council unanimously supports it as�well.

Here is what I�would like to�say and�make clear. We will not overcome the�daunting demographic challenges facing us solely with money, social benefits, allowances, privileges, or�dedicated programmes. True, the�amount of�the�budget�s demographic spending is extremely important, but that is not all there is to�it. A�person�s points of�reference in�life matter more. Love, trust, and�a�solid moral foundation are what the�family and�the�birth of�a�child are built on. We must never forget this.

Thankfully, many of�our ethnic groups have preserved the�tradition of�having strong multigenerational families with four, five, or�even more children. Let us remember that Russian families, many of�our grandmothers and�great-grandmothers had seven, eight, or�even more children.

Let us preserve and�revive these excellent traditions. Large families must become the�norm, a�way of�life for�all Russia�s peoples. The�family is not just the�foundation of�the�state and�society, it is a�spiritual phenomenon, a�source of�morality.

All levels of�government, our economic, social and�infrastructure policies, education and�awareness-raising, and�healthcare should be engaged without exception in�the�work of�supporting families, mothers and�children. All public organisations and�our traditional religions should focus on�strengthening families as�well. Preserving and�increasing the�population of�Russia is our goal for�the�coming decades and�even generations ahead. This is the�future of�the�Russian world, the�millennium-old, eternal Russia.

Your Holiness, friends, we have many ambitious goals before us, and�fulfilling them requires a�truly concerted effort, which we are ready for. We have become stronger. Our historical regions have returned to�Russia. Society is rejecting everything superficial and�turning to�true and�genuine values.

Pyotr Stolypin emphasised that law based on�national power takes precedence. Together, we have shown such national strength and�national will, the�determination to�uphold our fundamental interests, the�fundamental interests of�the�people of�Russia, to�be guided not by�someone else's borrowed views, but by�our own sovereign worldviews, our understanding of�how the�family and�the�entire country should live, and�to�build Russia for�ourselves and�our children.

I�would like to�thank you again for�your support and�patriotism and, of�course, to�congratulate you on�the�occasion of�the�30th anniversary of�the�World Russian People's Council.

I�would like to�address special words of�thanks to�its head, Patriarch Kirill of�Moscow and�All Russia.

I�am aware of�your tireless work, Your Holiness, to�bring about the�spiritual revival of�Russia and�of�the�importance and�influence of�your position. I�want to�emphasise this. Under your leadership, the�Russian Orthodox Church, clergy, and�laity do much to�implement social, charitable, and�volunteer projects. I�am also aware of�the�support provided to�our servicemen and�their families and�how eagerly our soldiers and�officers on�the�frontlines seek out the�Patriarch's words.

I�am pleased today, at�the�World Russian People's Council, to�congratulate you on�being awarded the�2023 Presidential Prize for�your contribution to�strengthening the�unity of�the�Russian nation. You have my�deepest respect. I�wish the�Council every success in�its work.

Thank you.

To�be continued.

Shoutout to cancel culture.

# ? Nov 29, 2023 09:15

GhostofJohnMuir: Aug 14, 2014; anime is not good

all of the ethnicities are equal, but some are more equal than others

# ? Nov 29, 2023 09:57

Nervous: Jan 25, 2005; Why, hello, my little slice of pecan pie.

GhostofJohnMuir posted:

all of the ethnicities are equal, but some are more equal than others

It's just like America, really.

# ? Nov 29, 2023 10:39

Ms Adequate: Oct 30, 2011; Baby even when I'm dead and gone
You will always be my only one, my only one
When the night is calling
No matter who I become
You will always be my only one, my only one, my only one
When the night is calling

If there's one thing Russia is known for, it's being a harmonious group of ethnicities with each accorded moral value, legal protection, and pragmatic support

# ? Nov 29, 2023 10:54

Chicken Butt: Oct 27, 2010

What an absurd and incoherent speech. Russia champions multiculturalism, and the West opposes it? Wtf is he talking about?

But the most chilling part of the speech is where he encourages Russian women to have as many children as possible. Apparently he�s noticed that he�s running out of cannon fodder! This strongly suggests that he envisions an endless series of wars, stretching on for decades.

# ? Nov 29, 2023 13:01

Tigey: Apr 6, 2015

Ms Adequate posted:

If there's one thing Russia is known for, it's being a harmonious group of ethnicities with each accorded moral value, legal protection, and pragmatic support

Yeah if you read between the lines, what he's actually doing in those bits of the speech is less outlining a new model for Russian society going forward, and more just expressing outrage over the fact that he perceives the West is encouraging* the 'lesser' colonized non-Russian ethnicities toward their own nationalism and separatism, with the aim of weakening and breaking up Russia's Empire. Ie: "Hands off our colonies! Stop giving the natives ideas above their station!"

As such, he is attempting to try to make them feel (without actually doing anything that would practically/materially enable it beyond rhetoric) that they too are equal victims of 'Russophobia' (ie: criticism of the Russian government) to try to align them with his version of Russian nationalism.

It might have more weight if he wasn't treating these people as literally expendable and disposable soldiers, sending them to the front lines to die in droves (while bullying and stealing from them in the process) so that affluent white residents in the imperial core can remain untouched by the war.

* I don't directly recall seeing any actual evidence of this being done by Western governments. Although as always Putin tends to conflate the views or actions of civil society in the West with the State. ie: because a commentator or academic somewhere said something about how Russia is an empire and oppresses its non-Russian minorities, the entire West is responsible and poses an existential threat to the regime.

# ? Nov 29, 2023 13:04

dennyk: Jan 2, 2005; Cheese-Buyer's Remorse

Chicken Butt posted:

What an absurd and incoherent speech. Russia champions multiculturalism, and the West opposes it? Wtf is he talking about?

But the most chilling part of the speech is where he encourages Russian women to have as many children as possible. Apparently he�s noticed that he�s running out of cannon fodder! This strongly suggests that he envisions an endless series of wars, stretching on for decades.

That's no doubt part of it, but Russia has been experiencing the same demographic decline as almost all other developed(-ish) nations for a few decades now, and Putin has called it out in the past, even long before his invasion of Ukraine. Putin's current bullshit has definitely made that crisis a hell of a lot worse for Russia, but they don't just need more cannon fodder, they also need more workers and consumers in general to keep what's left of their economy afloat.

# ? Nov 29, 2023 13:40

fatherboxx: Mar 25, 2013

As usual, with "national liberation" etc its a hodgepodge of half-remembered soviet ideology playbooks, 90s born again Christian garbage and just water, not worth caring about. Grandpa ranting at clouds.

# ? Nov 29, 2023 13:43

Antigravitas: Dec 8, 2019; Die Rettung fuer die Landwirte:

I'm getting some strong Kinder, K�che, Kirche vibes from Putin tbh.

# ? Nov 29, 2023 13:53

Tigey: Apr 6, 2015

Yeah, smarter people have looked into this and there's no ideological coherence to Putin.

He's literally just an angry old man bitter about the decline and loss of Russian power, who latches onto and meshes together various half-remembered ideas and arguments from various conflicting ideologies and sources because he thinks (sometimes wrongly) they support his fantasies about and desire for
a resurgence in Russian power and influence.

The anger and bitterness is the only real thing about it. Everything else is just a co-opted veneer to justify it.

# ? Nov 29, 2023 13:55

Paladinus: Jan 11, 2014; heyHEYYYY!!!

Chicken Butt posted:

What an absurd and incoherent speech. Russia champions multiculturalism, and the West opposes it? Wtf is he talking about?

But the most chilling part of the speech is where he encourages Russian women to have as many children as possible. Apparently he�s noticed that he�s running out of cannon fodder! This strongly suggests that he envisions an endless series of wars, stretching on for decades.

There were already some small but very novel for modern Russia steps to limit access to abortions. Currently, it looks like abortions will soon only be allowed to be performed in state-run hospitals, and there are plans by different factions on how to restrict it further. There is practically zero public support for that outside of the religious minority (the vast majority of Russians are Christians/Muslims/Buddhists in name only and barely observe any religious traditions let alone consistently attend religious services). It's just not on anyone's mind like it is in America or Poland, everyone was happy with the status quo.

Tigey posted:

Yeah, smarter people have looked into this and there's no ideological coherence to Putin.

He's literally just an angry old man bitter about the decline and loss of Russian power, who latches onto and meshes together various half-remembered ideas and arguments from various conflicting ideologies and sources because he thinks (sometimes wrongly) they support his fantasies about and desire for
a resurgence in Russian power and influence.

The anger and bitterness is the only real thing about it. Everything else is just a co-opted veneer to justify it.

It's incoherent only as far as fascist ideologies tend to lack internal consistency. He is really an actual fan of Ivan Ilyin's brand of 'enlightened fascism'.

Paladinus fucked around with this message at 14:19 on Nov 29, 2023

# ? Nov 29, 2023 14:17

Ynglaur: Oct 9, 2013; The Malta Conference, anyone?

Charliegrs posted:

Is it true that whoever was in charge of the military in Mariupol basically sold out the city and that's why it fell so fast? I remember hearing something to that effect.

The city didn't fall quickly, but yes: the general responsible for the defense of the city explicitly ordered no defenses be built to the west, and then left the city three days before the invasion. In general, the FSB's campaign in southern Ukraine was effective. Had it been as effective in the north by Kyiv and the northeast by Kharkiv, the war may have turned out very differently. As it was, Mariupol was quickly invested, and then it was only a matter of time before it fell. Mykolaiv was very touch-and-go for a few days, and seems largely to have been held by a handful of volunteers, territorial defense units, the remnants of a regular army mechanized brigade, and a couple artillery batteries.

# ? Nov 29, 2023 14:42

ummel: Jun 17, 2002; <3 Lowtax; Fun Shoe

GhostofJohnMuir posted:

i hadn't seen it posted, but the pbs/frontline documentary on the experience of the ukrainian ap's team during the first 3 weeks of the siege of mauripol is up on youtube. the talk when it was making the festival circuits was that it's a powerful, but hard to watch film

i haven't watched myself yet, but the film comes with a viewer discretion advisement, so i'm going to use the tag

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvAyykRvPBo

edit: i've sat down to watch, and about 15 minutes in there is a dead child on an operating table, and while not graphic, it is not shy about showing the reality of what that looks like. even outside of that scene the general fear of every civilian on camera is distressingly palpable

definitely , but also sobering reminder of the sheer hell one man has chosen to unleash solely for his own contemptible vanity

20 minutes into this and I want to cry and throw up. What powerful footage.

# ? Nov 29, 2023 15:33

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

Ynglaur posted:

The city didn't fall quickly, but yes: the general responsible for the defense of the city explicitly ordered no defenses be built to the west, and then left the city three days before the invasion. In general, the FSB's campaign in southern Ukraine was effective. Had it been as effective in the north by Kyiv and the northeast by Kharkiv, the war may have turned out very differently. As it was, Mariupol was quickly invested, and then it was only a matter of time before it fell. Mykolaiv was very touch-and-go for a few days, and seems largely to have been held by a handful of volunteers, territorial defense units, the remnants of a regular army mechanized brigade, and a couple artillery batteries.

Regarding Mariupol, is that story about the general the same as this?

https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/05...20as%20ordered.

quote:

Ukraine�s State Bureau of Investigation (DBR) served a notice of suspicion of high treason to the logistics chief of the 501st Marine Battalion, who reportedly deceived 277 marines into surrendering in Mariupol in April 2022. The agency doesn�t name the suspect, but Ukrainska Pravda claims it is Kostiantin Bezsmertnyi, referring to its sources in law enforcement agencies, and notes that the notice was served in absentia.

The investigation revealed that the head of the battalion�s logistics service colluded with Russians and persuaded the commander to surrender during the defense of Mariupol, leading the soldiers to be misled and transferred to the so-called �Donetsk People�s Republic� instead of relocating as ordered.

I remember there was some noise about an active betrayal going on in connection with Mariupol, but I'm not sure how extensive it went. Sounds like that general leaving the city was more about bad judgment and/or incompetence.

# ? Nov 29, 2023 15:39

Morrow: Oct 31, 2010

It's also hard to point to unpreparedness being a result of a genuine sabotage effort when the Ukrainian government was doing everything it could to downplay the invasion until Russian tanks ran over the border posts.

# ? Nov 29, 2023 15:53

Ynglaur: Oct 9, 2013; The Malta Conference, anyone?

Eric Cantonese posted:

Regarding Mariupol, is that story about the general the same as this?

https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/05...20as%20ordered.

I remember there was some noise about an active betrayal going on in connection with Mariupol, but I'm not sure how extensive it went. Sounds like that general leaving the city was more about bad judgment and/or incompetence.

No, I don't believe so. My reference is an interview John Spencer conducted with a Ukrainian Marine who fought in Mariupol, was captured, later escaped, and evaded further capture for almost a year before being extracted earlier in 2023.

# ? Nov 29, 2023 15:58

small butter: Oct 8, 2011

Morrow posted:

It's also hard to point to unpreparedness being a result of a genuine sabotage effort when the Ukrainian government was doing everything it could to downplay the invasion until Russian tanks ran over the border posts.

Why were they doing this, anyway? I remember arguing with people during the buildup and saying that Russia will definitely attack and they were saying that not even Ukraine says they will.

# ? Nov 29, 2023 17:38

TheDeadlyShoe: Feb 14, 2014

small butter posted:

Why were they doing this, anyway? I remember arguing with people during the buildup and saying that Russia will definitely attack and they were saying that not even Ukraine says they will.

Ukrainian spy intel pointed to it just being exercises again; afterall, that's what the troops thought. This is why Russia kept literally everyone in the dark about the invasion. It helps that people didn't want to believe it.

of course, it turns out keeping your own troops in the dark has its own problems

# ? Nov 29, 2023 17:41

Charliegrs: Aug 10, 2009

small butter posted:

Why were they doing this, anyway? I remember arguing with people during the buildup and saying that Russia will definitely attack and they were saying that not even Ukraine says they will.

This is literally what US intelligence was screaming at the top of their lungs at the Ukrainians right before the invasion. Yet they wouldn't believe it. It's kind of a miracle that Ukraine defended itself as well as it did in the opening days of the invasion because they were in complete denial right up until it happened.

# ? Nov 29, 2023 17:52

Eric Cantonese: Dec 21, 2004; You should hear my accent.

small butter posted:

Why were they doing this, anyway? I remember arguing with people during the buildup and saying that Russia will definitely attack and they were saying that not even Ukraine says they will.

I think Ukraine, like many other people, thought there was some chance that Russia was just bluffing because why would they wreck their economy and waste men and equipment with a full scale invasion? The US had the benefit of tons of intelligence gathering technology (especially spy satellites) that very few others have.

They were not the only people caught by surprise by Russia actually moving forward with this madness.

# ? Nov 29, 2023 17:55

Deteriorata: Feb 6, 2005

Charliegrs posted:

This is literally what US intelligence was screaming at the top of their lungs at the Ukrainians right before the invasion. Yet they wouldn't believe it. It's kind of a miracle that Ukraine defended itself as well as it did in the opening days of the invasion because they were in complete denial right up until it happened.

I think Ukraine officially pretended that they didn't believe it. Behind the scenes they were obviously getting as prepared as they could. Pre-invasion they were more concerned with not provoking Russia and giving them any excuses so it would be obvious naked aggression.

# ? Nov 29, 2023 18:11

Burns: May 10, 2008

TheDeadlyShoe posted:

Ukrainian spy intel pointed to it just being exercises again; afterall, that's what the troops thought. This is why Russia kept literally everyone in the dark about the invasion. It helps that people didn't want to believe it.

of course, it turns out keeping your own troops in the dark has its own problems

I can sort of see that as correct for Russian troops in the north as there is enough evidence that the troops evidenced as much. But in the south? No, i dont buy that. It was a colossal mistake on Ukraine's part. The Russians should never have been able to break out of Crimea as easily as they did. Ukraine has paid and will continue to pay heavily for it. As long as the Russians are on the Dipno they will strangle Ukraine.

# ? Nov 29, 2023 18:12

Glah: Jun 21, 2005

Charliegrs posted:

This is literally what US intelligence was screaming at the top of their lungs at the Ukrainians right before the invasion. Yet they wouldn't believe it. It's kind of a miracle that Ukraine defended itself as well as it did in the opening days of the invasion because they were in complete denial right up until it happened.

I've gotten the impression the in the prelude of 2022 invasion, Ukraine was intentionally playing up the notion that invasion wasn't gonna happen while US did the opposite. The thinking in that scenario would be that US, being the superpower, was playing the diplomatic hardball while Ukraine would not only try to keep the population from panicking but also keep open an avenue for negotiations and a way for Russians to back away while saving face. Obviously Russia was set on invasion but I don't think Ukraine was in complete denial about the possibility. It wasn't a miracle that Ukraine could stop Russian invasion with stiff resistance right from the beginning, they very much had done a lot of work to shore up their defenses while publicly saying that Russia wont invade. Were they in complete denial, Ukraine couldn't have launched counter attacks against invading Russian columns so quickly and efficiently.

# ? Nov 29, 2023 18:14

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

Ukraine thought Russia would not invade because they knew Russia would have to be insane to invade in the face of Ukraine's armed resistance.

Russia invaded because they thought Ukraine would not raise armed resistance.

# ? Nov 29, 2023 18:16

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

My impression was partly Ukraine wanted to leave Russia a path to not invade but also other NATO countries (I think France?) were saying Russia wasn't going to invade more so because they were doing so with an insufficient army to actually take control of the entire country and it seemed too stupid. Russia really did seem to think Ukraine would collapse on it's own and they would be greeted as liberators.

# ? Nov 29, 2023 18:29

Back Hack: Jan 17, 2010

Popete posted:

My impression was partly Ukraine wanted to leave Russia a path to not invade but also other NATO countries (I think France?) were saying Russia wasn't going to invade more so because they were doing so with an insufficient army to actually take control of the entire country and it seemed too stupid. Russia really did seem to think Ukraine would collapse on it's own and they would be greeted as liberators.

The funny thing with France is that they were so smug about how Russia wasn't going to invade because they signed a peace-agreement with Russia that guarantee Russia wouldn't invade Europe, a couple of days before they did. What fools.

Back Hack fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Nov 29, 2023

# ? Nov 29, 2023 19:03

Dapper_Swindler: Feb 14, 2012; Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

GhostofJohnMuir posted:

putin made another speech today that reiterates his ethnic ideology based rationale for the war. a summary from isw

a muddled mess of fake historicity invented out of mid-air by a revanchist intelligence agent to justify why he has to re-create the colonial empire of his youth. if russia is trying to lay the groundwork for a minsk 3 style frozen conflict some time next year, putin's rhetoric certainly isn't in alignment

I agree with this. I think putin gonna continue pissing away lives and materiel so he can get most of ukraine. He is too deep now and he might be dead now if Prig hadnt backed off at the last second. if he quites or goes for a cold peace, then he loses.

# ? Nov 29, 2023 19:21

Raenir Salazar: Nov 5, 2010; College Slice

Although you also had people thinking it would be a NATO false flag and that the US was lying and so on to provoke a war while the build up was in the open and unmistakable. That was funny.

# ? Nov 29, 2023 20:03

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

There was also some concern that Putin could use Ukraine mobilizing as a provocation ("Ukraine is not respecting the Minsk agreements!") or combat could start accidentally when thousands of Ukrainians take positions and tensions escalate. I'm not sure if I buy that, especially the former (you could just start gradually mobilizing without announcing it aloud). Though keeping forces in heightened state of alert for weeks or months is wearing.

# ? Nov 29, 2023 20:14

small butter: Oct 8, 2011

Back Hack posted:

The funny thing with France is that they were so smug about how Russia wasn't going to invade because they signed a peace-agreement with Russia that guarantee Russia wouldn't invade Europe, a couple of days before they did. What fools.

What is this peace agreement? Was it a treaty?

Did Russia try to justify the breaking of the agreement by saying that "Ukraine isn't Europe" or something?

# ? Nov 29, 2023 20:24

Back Hack: Jan 17, 2010

small butter posted:

What is this peace agreement? Was it a treaty?

Did Russia try to justify the breaking of the agreement by saying that "Ukraine isn't Europe" or something?

Macron flew out to Russia to talk to Putin directly, made a big deal about signing a few documents that basically said Russia is a country of peace and has no intentions of invading Ukraine/Europe. Macron then started blowing smoke out his rear end that maybe if the West was more open, Russia wouldn�t have to be so aggressive when it came to peaceful diplomacy and other such bullshit. Within the same week, Russia invaded Ukraine.

# ? Nov 29, 2023 20:49

MikeC: Jul 19, 2004; BITCH ASS NARC

Deteriorata posted:

I think Ukraine officially pretended that they didn't believe it. Behind the scenes they were obviously getting as prepared as they could. Pre-invasion they were more concerned with not provoking Russia and giving them any excuses so it would be obvious naked aggression.

https://rusi.org/explore-our-resear...ruary-july-2022
This document remains the best source of information on the early days of the war. The Ukrainians were genuinely surprised at the timing and the location of the Russian main effort though they had anticipated and wargamed a significant conflict with Russia in the Donbas region by summer of '22.

# ? Nov 29, 2023 20:51

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 12:19

Rigel: Nov 11, 2016

Deteriorata posted:

I think Ukraine officially pretended that they didn't believe it. Behind the scenes they were obviously getting as prepared as they could. Pre-invasion they were more concerned with not provoking Russia and giving them any excuses so it would be obvious naked aggression.

My recollection from reading several articles was that Ukraine did not actually believe the invasion was coming, but because the US and UK were relentlessly screaming at them for months that they had better prepare for an invasion, then they hedged their bets and prepared somewhat just in case. They were definitely surprised.

# ? Nov 29, 2023 21:40

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > War in Ukraine CE: The Golf War

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