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Wrap his body in chicken wire, strap heavy bricks to the wire and chuck his corpse into the Marianas trench. Let his body feed the fish so we can say he did one decent thing during his existence, even if it was posthumous.
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Nov 30, 2023 15:43
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My favorite part of kissinger de-hagriographized is that his policy expertise is overstated, he was strategically mid and genocide/bombing/savage antidemocratic coups were the asspull his mid-ness ended up relying on the most so afterwards he was all justifying it as the REAL cost of politics by REAL rationalists who aren't sappy eyed IDEALISTS who might say something like "no let's not do a war crimes"
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Nov 30, 2023 15:52
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Staluigi posted:My favorite part of kissinger de-hagriographized is that his policy expertise is overstated, he was strategically mid and genocide/bombing/savage antidemocratic coups were the asspull his mid-ness ended up relying on the most so afterwards he was all justifying it as the REAL cost of politics by REAL rationalists who aren't sappy eyed IDEALISTS who might say something like "no let's not do a war crimes" Actually, Kissinger is a Communist icon and hero of the people. The Chinese government put out a video tribute today saying that all U.S. foreign policy in the last 50 years was bad - except for the one brave man who was a ray of hope to the world: Henry Kissinger. https://twitter.com/HuXijin_GT/status/1730198413453795793
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Nov 30, 2023 15:55
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Staluigi posted:My favorite part of kissinger de-hagriographized is that his policy expertise is overstated, he was strategically mid and genocide/bombing/savage antidemocratic coups were the asspull his mid-ness ended up relying on the most so afterwards he was all justifying it as the REAL cost of politics by REAL rationalists who aren't sappy eyed IDEALISTS who might say something like "no let's not do a war crimes" It was very much a "everything worked until it stopped working" metric for success. On a long term basis, almost everything he had a hand in was a worse outcome for the United States (except maybe in Chile). I do feel like it's much easier to blame Kissinger as a singularly evil person rather than, you know, the American people for being blase about the consequences of their own half-baked worldview about how the world should be though.
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Nov 30, 2023 16:00
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Actually, Kissinger is a Communist icon and hero of the people. i mean i can actually get why the like him, he kinda gave china shot in the arm after the sino soviet split and led to trade opening up big once stuff calmed down post mao. poo poo talk either side but china and the US need each other on various levels for economy at least for right now. good news is at least Mao and Henry get to see each other again now.
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Nov 30, 2023 16:00
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Actually, Kissinger is a Communist icon and hero of the people. Yeah. Don't ask Taiwanese people about Kissinger or Nixon.
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Nov 30, 2023 16:00
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If entrepreneurs were truly a thing, there would already be drone services popping up to offer to drop decent people's pee and poo poo on Kissinger's grave.
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Nov 30, 2023 16:09
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Eric Cantonese posted:It was very much a "everything worked until it stopped working" metric for success. On a long term basis, almost everything he had a hand in was a worse outcome for the United States (except maybe in Chile). i feel like its a mix. Kissenger said what alot of people wanted to here and had enough victories(american-china relations) and "victories" (peace with vietnam that kissenger and nixon prolonged for favorable poo poo plus cambodia and etc) that the high muckty mucks all bought it. the thing i find funny is his realpoliks was bullshit because i kinda only count china, the rest were just "lets coup lefties or anyone who even thinks of leaning left and put psycho morons in charge" as for american people. i sorta agree but alot of that is people didnt really give a poo poo about foreign policy stuff unless american lives were on the line/dying. its why vietnam and to some extent the korean war were such big flash points. american kids dying for nothing because ghouls like kissenger thought the world was a 4x game.
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Nov 30, 2023 16:11
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Eric Cantonese posted:Yeah. Don't ask Taiwanese people about Kissinger or Nixon. Or the Laotians Or the Pakistanis
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Nov 30, 2023 16:14
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Eric Cantonese posted:Yeah. Don't ask Taiwanese people about Kissinger or Nixon. Big fans! https://twitter.com/kuomintang/status/1730053018136248468
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Nov 30, 2023 16:14
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Yeah. About how Taiwanese people feel about the KMT... EDIT: This is also a funny contrast: https://twitter.com/Andrew_W_Jiang/status/1730065179369472243
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Nov 30, 2023 16:16
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Dapper_Swindler posted:i mean i can actually get why the like him, he kinda gave china shot in the arm after the sino soviet split and led to trade opening up big once stuff calmed down post mao. poo poo talk either side but china and the US need each other on various levels for economy at least for right now. good news is at least Mao and Henry get to see each other again now. He also arguably helped instigate war between Pakistan and India, in his efforts to open a line to China, as described in this book https://www.amazon.com/Blood-Telegram-Kissinger-Forgotten-Genocide/dp/0307700208
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Nov 30, 2023 16:18
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He didn't personally shove anyone into the ovens (Well, that we know of) but has anyone ever played a role in instigating so many genocides?
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Nov 30, 2023 16:37
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Hitler tried to do several.
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Nov 30, 2023 16:41
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zoux posted:Hitler tried to do several. Again I feel like "tried to" is the wrong verb mood to use here. You don't need to wait for every member of a targeted group to be dead before you can call a thing a genocide.
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Nov 30, 2023 16:46
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Ms Adequate posted:He didn't personally shove anyone into the ovens (Well, that we know of) but has anyone ever played a role in instigating so many genocides? Kissinger (edit: was) a Jewish refugee from Nazi Germany who had family die in the holocaust. He is pretty lovely, but accusing him of "personally shoving people into the ovens" is probably not the best way to get that across. Giving advice that killed a lot of people is also not the same thing as a genocide. A lot of people died because of his advice, but he wasn't genociding Laos or Taiwan. Sometimes people are just bad people without physically pushing people into ovens or being worse than Hitler. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Nov 30, 2023 |
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Nov 30, 2023 16:49
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Ms Adequate posted:He didn't personally shove anyone into the ovens (Well, that we know of) but has anyone ever played a role in instigating so many genocides? Why, Biden and Netanyahu are doing one right now! IDK if they others to their credit though. Biden voting for the Iraq war might count.
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Nov 30, 2023 16:56
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More bleak economic news as doomspending is 2.6% above projections, injecting what we call "death dollars" into the "hell economy". 
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Nov 30, 2023 17:06
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ex post facho posted:Why, Biden and Netanyahu are doing one right now! IDK if they others to their credit though. Biden voting for the Iraq war might count. Genocide has an actual meaning and isn't just "bad thing." ~60x more Russians died on the Eastern front during WWII than during the Rwandan genocide. Yet, one is definitely a genocide and the other is not. "A bunch of people died" doesn't mean you committed genocide and voting for something that lead to a civil war doesn't mean you just committed genocide. Something can be extremely bad without being genocide and hitting some number of deaths doesn't roll over and hit a magic "genocide" trigger.
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Nov 30, 2023 17:09
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zoux posted:More bleak economic news as doomspending is 2.6% above projections, injecting what we call "death dollars" into the "hell economy". So is this actually a bad thing, or is this just a "nothing can be portrayed as good" thing?
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Nov 30, 2023 17:24
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Genocide has an actual meaning and isn't just "bad thing." Uhhhh, yeah, Hitler definitely intended a genocide on the soviet population. There’s a reason they weren’t burning villages in France and Norway
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Nov 30, 2023 17:25
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Randalor posted:So is this actually a bad thing, or is this just a "nothing can be portrayed as good" thing? It's a good thing.
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Nov 30, 2023 17:34
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The funny thing to me about Kissinger is that 99% of the venom everyone is expressing is fully justified, and yet he was the voice of moderation in the Nixon administration.quote:Nixon : No, no, no, I'd rather use the nuclear bomb. Have you got that, Henry?
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Nov 30, 2023 17:39
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zoux posted:More bleak economic news as doomspending is 2.6% above projections, injecting what we call "death dollars" into the "hell economy". So I get that the joke is that everything since the first million died of Covid-19 has to be framed negatively because we're still processing the grief and hopelessness from that plague... but what did the report that this graph was produced for actually say?
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Nov 30, 2023 17:42
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Uhhhh, yeah, Hitler definitely intended a genocide on the soviet population. There’s a reason they weren’t burning villages in France and Norway This is the exact point. Genocide means a specific thing. Lots of bad things aren't genocide and using it for everything dilutes the word and also makes your message less clear. Operation Barbarossa was intended to be a genocide of slavic civilians, but the Soviet army members killed in WWII weren't genocided. In Iraq, ~180k to 200k Iraqi civilians died. Almost none of them were killed directly by the U.S. and were killed by Sunni terrorist groups or Shi'a militias. The U.S. was not trying to eliminate all Iraqis or Shi'a Islam and were explicitly attempting to engage in nationbuilding - the literal opposite of genocide. Invading Iraq was a very bad thing that lead to hundreds of thousands of people dying, but it isn't a genocide or attempted genocide in any definition of the word. It is essentially the opposite. Calling it a genocide because "a lot of people died" is not accurate and detracts from what a genocide actually is. Some things that aren't genocide can have massively more deaths or cause more material damage than an actual genocide because genocide describes the goals and motivations of the killings and not the specific number of killings. It isn't just "big number = genocide." Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Nov 30, 2023 |
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Nov 30, 2023 17:44
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Giving advice that killed a lot of people is also not the same thing as a genocide. A lot of people died because of his advice, but he wasn't genociding Laos or Taiwan. Julius Streicher never killed a single Jewish person directly but he still got hung at Nuremberg for inciting genocide. And there's little difference whispering into a President's ear or rallying up a crowd.
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Nov 30, 2023 17:47
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Young Freud posted:Julius Streicher never killed a single Jewish person directly but he still got hung at Nuremberg for inciting genocide. And there's little difference whispering into a President's ear or rallying up a crowd. Right. As explained multiple times, genocide is about intent. Not about the number of people killed. The goal of Kissinger and Nixon was not to eliminate the nation of Laos or the Taiwanese people. Something can be extremely bad and not be a genocide. Genocide isn't a measure of badness or the number of casualties.
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Nov 30, 2023 17:49
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Young Freud posted:Julius Streicher never killed a single Jewish person directly but he still got hung at Nuremberg for inciting genocide. And there's little difference whispering into a President's ear or rallying up a crowd. That is like, literally his point. Julius Streicher was executed for inciting genocide because he performed his actions with the intent to genocide the Jews. Being an evil gently caress-up who gets people killed does not mean your intent was to commit genocide. You just suck in a different, also very bad way.
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Nov 30, 2023 17:58
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I’m gonna take the bold moral stance that if you behave genocidally even by accident or because of a whoopsy doodle I’m still gonna call you a genocidaire, and if you’re dead good luck defending yourself, because I’m not.
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Nov 30, 2023 18:06
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'All bad things are the same' is not a bold moral stance. Much like 'all my enemies are the same'. it is a simplistic and lazy one that actually provides cover for the worst of crimes.
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Nov 30, 2023 18:09
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:'All bad things are the same' is not a bold moral stance. Much like 'all my enemies are the same'. it is a simplistic and lazy one that actually provides cover for the worst of crimes. Intent doesn’t matter when people can just lie, bud! And Kissinger, and his defenders, are loving liars of the highest order.
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Nov 30, 2023 18:10
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selec posted:I’m gonna take the bold moral stance that if you behave genocidally even by accident or because of a whoopsy doodle I’m still gonna call you a genocidaire, and if you’re dead good luck defending yourself, because I’m not. Girl, same. Not that they're comparable not that they're comparable but I had a similar experience looking askance at fellow liberals that wanted to remind everyone that OBL's death was nothing to celebrate. Every once in a while we can all join hands and enjoy knowing a monster died screaming and terrified at 4 in the morning while agents of justice moved inexorably from room to room.
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Nov 30, 2023 18:15
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selec posted:Intent doesn’t matter when people can just lie, bud! And Kissinger, and his defenders, are loving liars of the highest order. In general, that is fair and what people debate when it is ambiguous, but I think the historical record is pretty clear that the U.S. was bombing Laos because it was trying to stop Viet Cong supply lines and just didn't give a poo poo that there were Laotians in the area. If the goal of the Vietnam War or the secret bombing in Laos was to eliminate the nation of Laos or the Hmong people, then they did an extremely bad job at achieving it and an extremely good job of covering up any record of their goal. Especially since the Hmong were explicitly allied with the U.S.
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Nov 30, 2023 18:16
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There are plenty of war crimes that aren't genocide.
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Nov 30, 2023 18:18
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:There are plenty of war crimes that aren't genocide. Exactly. Kissinger's actions in Laos were 100% dictionary definition war crimes, but he didn't genocide Laos. Some people are arguing that genocide is a "badness" modifier and if you don't use it, then you aren't assigning the appropriate level of "badness" to it. The firebombing during WWII is definitely a war crime and caused more destruction than many actual genocides. But, it wasn't a genocide, even if it was much more damaging than many actual genocides, because genocide is not a measure of badness.
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Nov 30, 2023 18:22
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In terms of sheer negative influence I'm also glad that Rush Limbaugh is dead. I don't have a super long list or anything but that was another that we should nakedly celebrate without apology.
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Nov 30, 2023 18:32
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Scags McDouglas posted:In terms of sheer negative influence I'm also glad that Rush Limbaugh is dead. Roger Ailes is also dead. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eJlN9jdQFSc
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Nov 30, 2023 18:39
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I apologize that some rhetorical flourish to emphasize how lovely Kissinger was led to this derail.
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Nov 30, 2023 18:42
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:This is the exact point. Genocide means a specific thing. Lots of bad things aren't genocide and using it for everything dilutes the word and also makes your message less clear. Generalplan Ost explicitly calls for the removal and replacement of slavs in the same breath as Jews my dude. Jesus tap dancing christ (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 30, 2023 18:46
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Generalplan Ost explicitly calls for the removal and replacement of slavs in the same breath as Jews my dude. Jesus tap dancing christ He literally says that Operation Barbarossa was genocide against slavs... Bar Ran Dun posted:Roger Ailes is also dead. Sometimes, good things happen.
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Nov 30, 2023 18:52
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