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VictualSquid posted:You still have not stated what position you want the left to take. I've stated quite clearly that my belief is the position modern left-wing parties should take if they want to retain working class votes is the position most working class voters say they're in favour of. This will vary by country, but the example I gave that I'm familiar with recently in Ireland would be reducing the number of asylum seekers accepted from safe status countries of origin. Thats a concrete, actionable, policy position, that would win the support of the vast majority of working class voters, that not a single left-wing party in the state is currently advocating for. Which is partially responsible for driving working class voters who care strongly about the issue to drift to the extremists. If you think that last graph I posted "defines working class as earning between 100k and 200k yearly" then I think you may have reading/comprehension difficulties, the last graph I posted illustrated the voting patterns of the top earners in the United States and was clearly labeled and discussed as such. A Buttery Pastry posted:So the actual meaning of being defanged is losing the ability to gently caress up the status quo in a way that screws with urban professionals and the like, or the strategic goals of the centrist politicians? We can continue down the path that has led to 28% of Danes being pro-ethnic cleansing of Muslim immigrants, and another 27% being undecided on the question, so long as this doesn't result in us stopping our support for Ukraine? The Danish overton window on migration has absolutely moved, but it has moved to reflect public opinion - which most would agree is a sign of a well functioning democracy. You mightn't agree with the new widely held view, but democracies that function correctly reflect the desires of the majority of their voters. In regards to the DPP specifically the meaning of defanged is losing 90% of your electoral support, yes. Far-right populist parties of their ilk would be far, far more damaging in power than the more grown-up, centrist parties. Your alternative here is one policy you don't like (migration) being enacted, or that done more extremely, plus many multiples of that (climate change denial, Putin appeasement, whatever). "Anti-immigrant poo poo" is not necessarily exclusive to the far right, its entirely possible to have overall left-wing political views /a party stance (high taxes, support the welfare state, pro-choice etc) and still want to limit migration. The idea that to be left-wing you have to support every single modern left-wing policy dogmatically is a belief of very online purity politics. In real life political parties, and voters, are more complex, and policy platforms evolve and change over time. YF-23 posted:The point of a left-wing party isn't to represent the working class's opinions, it is to represent the working class's interests. If the working class's opinions are contrary to the working class's interests (as is the case with bigotry and xenophobia which drive the working class away from material class-based politics and into identitarian infighting), it is the left-wing party's job to course-correct against that and work towards promoting class consciousness and a politics that advances the interests of the working class, providing an alternative away from the mainstreamed identitarianism. "The point of a left-wing party isn't to represent the working class's opinions" yeah this is some bourgeoisie paternalistic bullshit. The point of an elected representative is to represent the interests and wishes of their constituents, not to decide whats best for them. This exact philosophy of "you poor people don't know whats best for you, I'll decide for you" is what has caused the left to wither on the electoral vine across Europe over the last 30 years. Blut fucked around with this message at 13:00 on Nov 30, 2023 |
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Nov 30, 2023 12:58
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So you want left wing parties to choose definitions of "working class" that lead to graphs that support their policies. And to keep those definitions secret, I suppose. I honestly can't believe that you can't find a party in your region that does exactly that. Here there are dozens, each with subtly different definitions and policies. Though the ones that end up hating immigrants generally identify as right wing. And the most successful left wing ones are the ones that acknowledge that the working class contains more immigrants and other minorities then the bourgeois. But, I would also say that it is becoming increasingly clear that your region is some strange place where everything is different from the rest of the EU, and you should take your advice to a regional thread. VictualSquid fucked around with this message at 13:21 on Nov 30, 2023 |
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Nov 30, 2023 13:14
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Can a party be strongly nationalist and leftist at the same time?
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Nov 30, 2023 13:31
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Angry Lobster posted:Can a party be strongly nationalist and leftist at the same time? I think left vs. right in electoral politics is mostly about self identification. So, theoretically there could exist one, but I have never heard of one. The ones that might consider the statement tend to identify as rational centrist or some mysterious third thing.
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Nov 30, 2023 13:36
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Angry Lobster posted:Can a party be strongly nationalist and leftist at the same time? National Liberation Front of South Vietnam, Provisional Irish Republican Army and Palestine Liberation Organization are examples of strongly nationalist leftist organizations.
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Nov 30, 2023 13:37
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There's an economically leftist, ultra nationalist party in Spain called the Workers' Front. They have practically no votes and they're real pieces of poo poo who have even pushed "great replacement" conspiracy bullshit. They're closer to fascism than to the left in my opinion but they exist.
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Nov 30, 2023 13:45
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Blut posted:"The point of a left-wing party isn't to represent the working class's opinions" yeah this is some bourgeoisie paternalistic bullshit. The point of an elected representative is to represent the interests and wishes of their constituents, not to decide whats best for them. This exact philosophy of "you poor people don't know whats best for you, I'll decide for you" is what has caused the left to wither on the electoral vine across Europe over the last 30 years. You are not conflating two separate things, what political parties are ideologically supposed to stand for and what elected representatives' duty is. Boiling down the role of political parties down to "policies supported when in government" is extremely short-sighted, especially in the context of leftism where socialist parties' participation in bourgeois republicanism has always faced structural obstacles. In this exchange you've been consistently coming across as arguing in bad faith, trying to use rhetorical sleights of hand to assert that left-wing parties should abandon their values, become more right-wing and implement right-wing policies, while avoiding the obvious consequence that such a thing would be a victory for the right rather than the left, and I am getting tired of arguing with that.
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Nov 30, 2023 14:19
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Elman posted:There's an economically leftist, ultra nationalist party in Spain called the Workers' Front. They have practically no votes and they're real pieces of poo poo who have even pushed "great replacement" conspiracy bullshit. They're closer to fascism than to the left in my opinion but they exist. I wonder why Spanish people are suspicious of socialism with nationalist characteristics, it's had such a good track record in Europe...
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Nov 30, 2023 14:24
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YF-23 posted:You are not conflating two separate things, what political parties are ideologically supposed to stand for and what elected representatives' duty is. Boiling down the role of political parties down to "policies supported when in government" is extremely short-sighted, especially in the context of leftism where socialist parties' participation in bourgeois republicanism has always faced structural obstacles. I don't really think what he was saying was bad faith- just kinda reflecting that the Danish party did have success when trying to accommodate voters' relatively-inconsistent ideological positions. Of course, other parties taking that tack have not done well, some of them likely because they're small in the first place and have almost no socialist bonafides so they only attract Nazis or because they're otherwise seen as non-credible. People just don't really hold perfectly consistent views, and i'm not sure being the rock solid party and putting these voters to a decision is actually working because they're making the other choice.
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Nov 30, 2023 14:55
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Glah posted:National Liberation Front of South Vietnam, Provisional Irish Republican Army and Palestine Liberation Organization are examples of strongly nationalist leftist organizations. e: Actually, if I was going to suggest a nationalist leftism in Europe, it would be re-nationalizing all the public utilities that were sold off to foreigners. Go full tilt on calling the original sale treasonous, a betrayal of the [country] people who paid for it. Assuming you don't get assassinated it would probably attract a decent chunk of old Social Democrats. Blut posted:The Danish overton window on migration has absolutely moved, but it has moved to reflect public opinion - which most would agree is a sign of a well functioning democracy. You mightn't agree with the new widely held view, but democracies that function correctly reflect the desires of the majority of their voters. Panzeh posted:I don't really think what he was saying was bad faith- just kinda reflecting that the Danish party did have success when trying to accommodate voters' relatively-inconsistent ideological positions. Of course, other parties taking that tack have not done well, some of them likely because they're small in the first place and have almost no socialist bonafides so they only attract Nazis or because they're otherwise seen as non-credible. A Buttery Pastry fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Nov 30, 2023 |
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Nov 30, 2023 18:21
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YF-23 posted:You are not conflating two separate things, what political parties are ideologically supposed to stand for and what elected representatives' duty is. Boiling down the role of political parties down to "policies supported when in government" is extremely short-sighted, especially in the context of leftism where socialist parties' participation in bourgeois republicanism has always faced structural obstacles. No, I'm pointing out how a functioning democracy, and successful political parties within it, work. And its not just my philosophical view, its empirically the view of working class voters across Europe - they've abandoned social issue focused left-wing political parties in droves over the past decades over this exact lack of representation of their views. Historically plenty of left wing parties have been generally anti-migration because they observed it resulted in more competition for housing, social services, and more competition for low skill jobs - all things that negatively impact the working class. Being pro-migration is obviously good morally, and can be good for a country overall economically, and hugely benefits capitalists who employ low wage workers/are landlords, but those are very different to being good for the local working class. The idea that being pro-migration is a required purity test of left-ism comes entirely from people with no historical knowledge of left-wing movements beyond social focuses of the last 30 years. A political party that implements higher taxes on the rich, more social services, pro unions policy, pro-choice/pro-LGBT policies etc but also wants to restrict migration is not "abandoning left wing values" - its still very much a left-wing party, just one thats actually reflecting the 2023 priorities of the working class that they're claiming to represent and improve the lives of. A Buttery Pastry posted:I would argue this is only true if the movement is itself healthy for democracy. A democratic move towards authoritarianism for example is not evidence of a well-functioning democracy, but a democracy wounded to the point that it can usher in its own demise. Absolutely, if the policy movement was towards restricting democracy. But a social democratic party moving to reduce immigration, because their voters want this, is not a move thats unhealthy for the functioning of democracy. The dominant far right party in a country, that had become the second largest party in the state, and was becoming a very real candidate for leading a government in the near future, losing 90% of its vote is absolutely the far right being defanged under any metric. The fact some of its vote moved to other, now much smaller, right-wing parties doesn't change that the odds of a far-right dominated government in Denmark have now receded massively. ie, been defanged. Blut fucked around with this message at 13:54 on Dec 1, 2023 |
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Dec 1, 2023 13:50
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I am still utterly baffled at the idea that your region has no party with the policy goals you demand. I am fairly certain that it is the only region in Europe where that is the case. They generally do only get single digit votes because there is almost nobody who actually dislikes immigration and likes social services. Create one and find out if there is really none in your region. Anyways, the German SPD recently became even more anti-immigrant, following their trend of the last 30 years, once again showing that your complaints are purely local or made up.
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Dec 1, 2023 15:08
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VictualSquid posted:I am still utterly baffled at the idea that your region has no party with the policy goals you demand. I am fairly certain that it is the only region in Europe where that is the case. I don't know if you're trolling or are you just completely and utterly unaware of the realities of European political systems? The default in the EU in 2023 is that almost no parties of the traditional left reflect today's working class desires to heavily limit migration, if not end it altogether. And this is a major driver of why those parties have lost a huge percentage of working class votes to the populist right. This has happened with the rise of the AfD in Germany, the RN in France, the Sweden Democrats in Sweden, the PVV in the Netherlands, the FdI in Italy and numerous others. Huge numbers of working class, and lately middle class, voters across the continent are voting for these terrible parties pretty much solely on the basis of their being the only parties in favour of much more restrictive migration policy. Its an ongoing car crash thats getting worse every year, and will end up with these parties in government sooner rather than later if nothing is done to listen to the concerns of the voters on this issue. And once those parties are in government they're not going to just change migration policy - they're going to roll back efforts to fight climate change, appease Putin, engage in rampant corruption, stack the judiciary etc - its going to be awful for everyone.
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Dec 1, 2023 16:38
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Blut posted:I don't know if you're trolling or are you just completely and utterly unaware of the realities of European political systems? I have never met a person that hates immigrants and likes extending other social services. There are parties trying to follow your argumentation, but almost nobody votes for them. The SPD has been in favour of more restrictive migration policy for some time now. Where exactly do you draw the line between "more restrictive migration policy" and "much more restrictive migration policy". I am asking for the exact amount of hating immigrants that would convince you to vote for more social services.
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Dec 1, 2023 16:47
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VictualSquid posted:I have never met a person that hates immigrants and likes extending other social services. Which exact traditional major European left-wing political parties are on the record advocating for heavily limiting/ending migration? The SPD's literal policy documents from the last German general election state: quote:Germany is no stranger to migration. Our country has always welcomed people from other Thats not remotely a migration policy that reflects current working class views, its the standard middle class/capitalist center-left pro-migration policy of the last 20 years.
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Dec 1, 2023 17:01
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Blut posted:Which exact traditional major European left-wing political parties are on the record advocating for heavily limiting/ending migration? The SPD has supported the brutalising of migrants at the EU borders whenever it comes to an actual voting decision, since the Schröder years. I hadn't noticed that they are pretending otherwise in that announcement, but anyway the election you are referring to was one of the SPD's best results in years. The more obvious anti-immigrant push came more recently as reaction to the intensified Gaza conflict. I suppose "traditional left wing" can be defined as excluding the SPD here. After all seeing anti-immigrant rhetoric as a bourgeois trap predates the communist manifesto and most "non-traditional left" attempts were more nationalist. Anyways, you are saying you would vote for the SPD if they stated that they enjoy drowning migrants, but you would not vote for them if they continue to pretend that drowning migrants is a necessary evil. Correct? And that is more important to you then any other social policies, including weather if those people are actually drowned.
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Dec 1, 2023 17:14
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It's great reading this whole debate as an immigrant to the EU. The path to socialism lies in giving me language tests and making it easier to deport me.
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Dec 1, 2023 17:30
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Blut posted:Its an ongoing car crash thats getting worse every year, and will end up with these parties in government sooner rather than later if nothing is done to listen to the concerns of the voters on this issue. And once those parties are in government they're not going to just change migration policy - they're going to roll back efforts to fight climate change, appease Putin, engage in rampant corruption, stack the judiciary etc - its going to be awful for everyone. What weird reality do you occupy where racist voters "aren't being listened to". They have constantly been pandered to, given ample attention by the media and in some countries can even choose from multiple parties espousing various racist policies. If there is one group of voters that is almost never "being listened to" it's left-wing voters. Secondly, are you suggesting the left might as well pander to racists to get more votes? If not, what kind of migration policies do you suggest? Also, please make a distinction between issues facing a society living with struggling 4th or 5th generation descendants of migrants and actual fresh migration. The far-right conveniently lumps them together but they are very different in nature.
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Dec 1, 2023 17:45
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The past is a foreign country, so we should deport all the pensioners who never contribute. This is what's best for the working people of Europe. <-- A specific and actionable proposal for a left wing solution to the problems of today.
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Dec 1, 2023 17:46
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The Netherlands has literally had racist right-wing parties in power for the last goddamn decade and people still aren't happy. Of course it's the fault of all these immigrants. How could I have been so blind.
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Dec 1, 2023 19:09
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Pope Hilarius II posted:What weird reality do you occupy where racist voters "aren't being listened to".
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Dec 1, 2023 20:07
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can't wait to hear these talking points every election for the european parliament, especially from the parties who nominally want to stay in the eu but also spend the entire election making GBS threads on schengen and central europe gonna be awesome when we get closer to a conversation about letting in ukraine and turkey
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Dec 1, 2023 20:56
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Yeah, nationalism and leftism can work if the nationalism is of the liberation variety. That messaging might actually do better nowadays to be honest, the communists have a knack for being ahead of the curve and eating poo poo for it.
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Dec 1, 2023 22:17
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Herman Merman posted:Opposing migration when you perceive it negatively affects your living standards does not make you racist, only somewhat selfish. And that describes a majority of the working class electorate. If you're unwilling or unable to provide some kind of convincing assurance to these voters that their needs are your top priority, they will not vote for you. Why should they? Yeah, this. I'd also say, if y'all think the current situation with migration is bad, you ain't seen loving nothing yet. The climate wars are guaranteed to heat up again in the near-to-mid-term, and even the mildest instance of them so far, a mere one million refugees into the EU in 2015, caused so much meltdown and bullshit in the EU that holy moly. What will happen when we get ten million? Fifty million? It would be really, really nice to have some kind of reasonable political force in existence that both presents some kind of non-terrible plan for dealing with mass migration and also is not 100% fascist, but I've no idea how to square this circle. The closing of borders is not something that's easy to do while also actually caring about people (on our side of the border). Unfortunately the fascists have an advantage here and I'm not even sure this is really solvable.
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Dec 1, 2023 23:20
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The anti-immigrant/socially conservative/pro-Putin/anti-vaxxer wing of the German Left party recently announced splitting off into a separate party under Sahra Wagenknecht(ironically the daughter of an Iranian immigrant). We'll see how they'll do during the election. They have had some very good initial poll results, but that's pretty much always the case in Germany with messianic figures. The closer we get to election day and the more concrete their positions have to become, the more they usually crash and burn like the Hindenburg.
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Dec 1, 2023 23:31
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jaete posted:Yeah, this. The problem is, once again, accepting the framing of immigration as something necessarily bad for the native population. It is absolutely not - it can be if you drop the ball on integration (which you would do if you wanted to court the knee-jerk racist reaction to it, as we've seen) and if you drop the ball on providing services and regulating important economic sectors like the housing market (as we've also seen). Adopting a "fortress europe" mentality creates a feedback loop, where you prime people to see foreigners adversarially, and now you've got racist attitudes mainstreamed and people like blut telling you that you are stupid or paternalistic if you don't let yourself get sucked into that feedback loop.
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Dec 2, 2023 01:57
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Antifa Poltergeist posted:The Portuguese communist party tried this back in 2013-2015 as a patriotic and leftist politics and it went over like a lead balloon. Mainly because you can’t actually do this while being part of the EU. Well , technically you can under Articles 107 and 108 TFEU, it’s just very very very hard to do so. YF-23 posted:The problem is, once again, accepting the framing of immigration as something necessarily bad for the native population. It is absolutely not - it can be if you drop the ball on integration (which you would do if you wanted to court the knee-jerk racist reaction to it, as we've seen) and if you drop the ball on providing services and regulating important economic sectors like the housing market (as we've also seen). Adopting a "fortress europe" mentality creates a feedback loop, where you prime people to see foreigners adversarially, and now you've got racist attitudes mainstreamed and people like blut telling you that you are stupid or paternalistic if you don't let yourself get sucked into that feedback loop.
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Dec 2, 2023 07:15
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Herman Merman posted:Opposing migration when you perceive it negatively affects your living standards does not make you racist, only somewhat selfish. And that describes a majority of the working class electorate. If you're unwilling or unable to provide some kind of convincing assurance to these voters that their needs are your top priority, they will not vote for you. Why should they? Bolding mine because that's the problem. The needs of the working class are very similar to the needs of immigrants, and the working class itself has a disproportionate amount of people from an immigrant background. I find it disingenious to call on the left to solve the massively complex problem of widespread disinformation pushed by right-wing and far-right establishment (with the generous aid of corporate media and self-owning centre-left). The genie's been out of the bottle for a long time, by now it would take a consistently genius-level political movement consistently sweeping the next three to four elections, violent revolution to overthrow the capitalist ruling class or outright excluding far-right political movements from the political process (which might spark its own violent reaction). Neither is likely to happen until poo poo completely breaks down, which could still be decades away, if at all.
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Dec 2, 2023 10:52
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YF-23 posted:The problem is, once again, accepting the framing of immigration as something necessarily bad for the native population. It is absolutely not - it can be if you drop the ball on integration (which you would do if you wanted to court the knee-jerk racist reaction to it, as we've seen) and if you drop the ball on providing services and regulating important economic sectors like the housing market (as we've also seen). Adopting a "fortress europe" mentality creates a feedback loop, where you prime people to see foreigners adversarially, and now you've got racist attitudes mainstreamed and people like blut telling you that you are stupid or paternalistic if you don't let yourself get sucked into that feedback loop.
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Dec 2, 2023 11:04
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Pope Hilarius II posted:The needs of the working class are very similar to the needs of immigrants Pope Hilarius II posted:I find it disingenious to call on the left to solve the massively complex problem of widespread disinformation pushed by right-wing and far-right establishment (with the generous aid of corporate media and self-owning centre-left).
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Dec 2, 2023 11:15
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Herman Merman posted:The working class doesn't seem to think so, and you're not being very convincing. What exactly is the problem with immigration? The numbers don't seem as massive, the supposedly huge crime numbers are a tiny percentage of the migrant population, being a man is a better indicator of criminality than being an immigrant is. What are the problems caused by migration that the left is failing to address, which aren't just far right misinformation, or created by neoliberal policy that a leftist political program is supposed to tackle?
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Dec 2, 2023 12:11
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mobby_6kl posted:It's not necessarily bad but what is even the "leftist" position on immigration that's supposed to work out for everyone? There is a broad spectrum of opinions ranging from "abolish all borders" to positions that are basically indistinguishable from centrist ones. My impression of the current German majority left consensus(Greens + main Left party) is: - full solidarity with refugees fleeing war or persecution. No solidarity on humanitarian grounds with economic refugees. The economic problems have to be addressed in their home countries instead. All refugees are only temporarily part of society and need to return home once possible. Exceptions must be made on humanitarian grounds for people who live here long enough and are well integrated or have children here. We have more than enough resources to handle this, only allocation is the problem. If there are problems, they are political in nature(e.g. uneven geographic distribution of refugees or intentional starving of funds to discourage more people from coming here) - Anyone can come here for study or training, but publicly financed institutions need to prioritize the native population if there are resource shortages, even if the shortages are intentional - Modern medicine, economic development and the equal rights movement have annihilated our unsustainable pre-industrial demographics and while we try to fix this poo poo and come up with something better, we gonna need people from other countries to come in and help us out in the meantime. They should have the same rights, compensation and opportunities as the native population and a right to permanently become equal citizens, if they want to. The systems intended to help these people integrate are hilariously insufficient and need to be massively improved. Only people with in demand skills and their families can come. This is only temporary for 2-3 generation until we have reached demographic sustainably. - EU citizens must have the same rights and opportunities as natives. As the new EU members converge economically with the rest, all "tensions" about immigrants from there will disappear. (I'm not necessarily endorsing any of these opinions, just trying to assemble a coherent position from everything I see & hear)
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Dec 2, 2023 13:12
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I don't think it is too out there to think that there are significant portion of working class people who sympathize with left on economical matters but are strictly anti-immigrant. Like anecdotally I've worked in many different blue collar jobs in my 20's and while most of my workmates veered left in labour matters, anti-immigration position was the most common default view amongst them. And I can see why some people might feel that traditional leftist parties are divorced from their reality. Like when people are concerned about immigrant crime and they get told that their concerns are foolish, after all statistically they shouldn't feel any less safe. Yeah sure, but how about the feelings of worsening social cohesion and safety in working class neighbourhoods where these voters live, do they follow the general statistics on how immigration doesn't increase crime so their lived experience must be false? I think part of the solution has to be expansion of welfare state instead of the slow death it is going through at the moment. But left wing discourse shouldn't pretend that immigration doesn't have problematic aspects too, and acknowledge that people actually are affected by it. I find it obvious that immigrants are under the same material conditions as everyone else, and because poor people do more crime, it follows that when large portions of immigrant population come into poor conditions, crime rates would increase among them too. Leftist politics must face this head on and offer solutions from materialist perspective. But will leftist politics gain support when they start denying the lived experiences of native working class people, while at the same time populist far right acknowledges them and starts agitating about it even more going into actual falsehood territory with conspiracy theories.
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Dec 2, 2023 13:16
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Glah posted:poor people do more crime
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Dec 2, 2023 13:33
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Do we actually know that for sure? I mean, poor people probably do do the kind of visible crimes that make people feel unsafe more, but I'm not sure we can say for certain that they actually do more crime. Well crime as an umbrella concept covers vastly different phenomena. Like your opportunity to do illegal insider trading when you are a wage worker or living on a dole is rather limited compared high income people. And I don't think there's much difference in say smoking weed between middle-class people and working class people. But like you said that kind of crime that is visible and increases feeling of unsafety in public sphere correlates with poverty more than high income. EDIT. Like my point here is that the kind of leftist politics focusing on material conditions (poverty, unemployment, worsening social cohesion in working class neighbourhoods, housing situation, "ghettoziation"), can affect types of crime that is linked with those same material conditions. And immigrants from third world disproportionately suffer from those poor material conditions and that explains why that section of immigrants has higher crime rates within certain crime types. Hence when you focus on those material conditions, the immigrant crime rates will get better too. I don't think leftist politics focusing on material conditions can much for example affect drunk driving but that really is a different sort of crime with different profile. Glah fucked around with this message at 14:00 on Dec 2, 2023 |
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Dec 2, 2023 13:44
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Elman posted:What exactly is the problem with immigration? The numbers don't seem as massive, the supposedly huge crime numbers are a tiny percentage of the migrant population, being a man is a better indicator of criminality than being an immigrant is. quote:What are the problems caused by migration that the left is failing to address, which aren't just far right misinformation, or created by neoliberal policy that a leftist political program is supposed to tackle?
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Dec 2, 2023 16:53
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I think a part of it is people misliking the dour tone more left aligned parties take. We have to prepare for climate change, we have to prepare to change things in our own lives, we have to...we have to...we have to. Right-wing party leaders' message is, just vote for me I'll fix everything. Everything is way less dour than they say except for everything that isn't, and that's the fault of those drat immigrants.
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Dec 2, 2023 18:53
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i still think this all makes a lot more sense as a doubling down on the national state as the seat of legitimate political power for people who don't see themselves or their cultures as competitive or even viable in a europe-wide free market system than as an involved psychopathology or mass of false consciousness
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Dec 2, 2023 19:44
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One stat from Bowling for Columbine that always stuck with me is how actual murders had gone down by a lot and TV coverage of murders had gone up 600% in some time period. And this is before social media. When I hear folks arguing about normal people's perceptions of immigration that always comes to mind.
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Dec 2, 2023 20:55
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Herman Merman posted:The working class doesn't seem to think so, and you're not being very convincing. Herman Merman posted:Right, it's always somebody else's fault. You can't expect *us* to provide working solutions to problems! It's the other political parties who have failed leftism, they should have played nicer. As always left-wing people are apparently obligated to give a detailed account of how they would solve all of society's ills while everyone else shrugs off right-wing fantasies of violating the Convention of Geneva, EU law or straight-up introducing conspiracy theories to the main body politic. According to some centrists, self-declared "impartial observers" and even some on the centre-left, not only should the left go at great lengths to debate the right and point out why and where they're wrong on the Great Marketplace of Ideas that is already stacked against them, every individual left-wing person is also responsible for coming up with solutions for the horrible poo poo caused by successive right-wing governments all across Europe. I've seen this dynamic played out dozens of times, and it's eerily similar to some white people who not only expect POC to educate them but also provide solutions while white people lean back, or how some men expect feminists to educate them and change society all on their own without support. Do you realise how similar your "arguments" look to those? In case you must know, I wrote a book in 2017 detailing everything about how I would go about achieving left-wing reforms in current Western democracies. Unfortunately it's in Dutch.
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Dec 3, 2023 13:11
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