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have him listen to the harden your heart song
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Dec 1, 2023 21:09
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Constipated posted:One of my oldest friends who is not an online person just got a support Israel shirt, and I really don't know what to say to him. We exchanged a few messages the day after October 7th and he told me he had been listening to audio books about Judaism and Israel, and he is a big fan of Ari Shaffir.. Its really freaking me out how clueless everyone in my life is about what's happening (and has happened in the past) in the middle east. convince him to enlist with the iof
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Dec 1, 2023 21:11
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Engorged Pedipalps posted:Given that we've only had a couple of insane radicalized people emerge from this morass the SA forums are probably not being watched too closely Sheeeeyt, SA produced vilerat and Brown Moses. It's probably on a list of state-aligned media. lol remember the Obamarama threads? Simpler times, simpler times
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Dec 1, 2023 21:12
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Constipated posted:One of my oldest friends who is not an online person just got a support Israel shirt, and I really don't know what to say to him. We exchanged a few messages the day after October 7th and he told me he had been listening to audio books about Judaism and Israel, and he is a big fan of Ari Shaffir.. Its really freaking me out how clueless everyone in my life is about what's happening (and has happened in the past) in the middle east. By showing him what's actually going on. Israel's policies, the brutality of the bombing in Gaza, the real history of the zionost project, everything. Just tell the truth.
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Dec 1, 2023 21:12
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Just talk to him and see if theres anything you know that could counter whatever he's latched onto. "Read this book" unprompted is just going to make him suspicious of you. He sounds like a mild mannered moron rather than a turboracist.
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Dec 1, 2023 21:12
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Willa Rogers posted:It'll be interesting to see whether unions hold off candidate endorsements next year bc of U.S. complicity in genocide. I've been to the AFSCME international convention and the majority of the states are moderate and would not take a pro Palestine stance imo. you'll get support from like Portland, Olympia, New York, Philadelphia, but not even close to the majority. but hey here's hoping 🙏
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Dec 1, 2023 21:14
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precious
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Tell your friend to stop watching corporate news broadcasts, which are 100% American imperial/IDF propaganda. Seriously. There are alternate sources like Novara Media or Al Jazeera on Youtube that do much better reporting than legacy bullshit like NBC because they don't just parrot what Israel tells them to say.
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Dec 1, 2023 21:14
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Constipated posted:One of my oldest friends who is not an online person just got a support Israel shirt, and I really don't know what to say to him. We exchanged a few messages the day after October 7th and he told me he had been listening to audio books about Judaism and Israel, and he is a big fan of Ari Shaffir.. Its really freaking me out how clueless everyone in my life is about what's happening (and has happened in the past) in the middle east. Assemble both of your gangs and fight it out at the five points Edit: make sure not to turn away your eyes if you die at his hands Crazypoops has issued a correction as of 21:17 on Dec 1, 2023 |
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Dec 1, 2023 21:15
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Constipated posted:One of my oldest friends who is not an online person just got a support Israel shirt, and I really don't know what to say to him. We exchanged a few messages the day after October 7th and he told me he had been listening to audio books about Judaism and Israel, and he is a big fan of Ari Shaffir.. Its really freaking me out how clueless everyone in my life is about what's happening (and has happened in the past) in the middle east.  and be happier
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Dec 1, 2023 21:20
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mags posted:lol lol. great work team
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Dec 1, 2023 21:22
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my tactic would be say something like "man, i don't know about that one" next time he says something out of pocket and see if you can have a conversation about it. feel like that works better with a long term friend than "read this book/watch this youtube video" or whatever.
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Dec 1, 2023 21:23
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Constipated posted:One of my oldest friends who is not an online person just got a support Israel shirt, and I really don't know what to say to him. We exchanged a few messages the day after October 7th and he told me he had been listening to audio books about Judaism and Israel, and he is a big fan of Ari Shaffir.. Its really freaking me out how clueless everyone in my life is about what's happening (and has happened in the past) in the middle east. I've run into this problem*, and the main barrier is that the people in question are generally so deeply ignorant that it's impossible to correct them without providing a bunch of sources that they're probably not going to be interested in reading. You can speak to them in a verbal conversation, and maybe you'll think you're making progress, but you aren't really. In their minds they'll just assume that there's some reason you're wrong. After all, the smart people in the government think Israel is good, so clearly they can't be *that* bad. But if you try to provide sources in writing, it'll probably be perceived as weird (and the issue is "deep" enough that there's a lot of information to go through). Basically the main issue is that a lot of people are just kind of dumb and intellectually lazy. It's the same issue you run into if you try and discuss Ukraine with people. It's not just about arguing your specific point - you need to somehow remove the person's faith in American institutions. Otherwise they'll always assume that there's some piece of the picture they're missing that makes everything make sense. You can show them sources, pictures, videos, etc, and it doesn't really matter, because they'll just assume there's something else out there that makes everything make sense. They're not an expert, after all, while the people in the government and media are experts! * though not as bad as your situation. My mom (from the Jewish side of my family) basically views Israel as "obnoxious assholes," but clearly doesn't understand exactly how bad they are. So it's more just a kind of ambivalence and a position akin to "all that Middle East stuff is complicated"
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Dec 1, 2023 21:23
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Constipated posted:One of my oldest friends who is not an online person just got a support Israel shirt, and I really don't know what to say to him. We exchanged a few messages the day after October 7th and he told me he had been listening to audio books about Judaism and Israel, and he is a big fan of Ari Shaffir.. Its really freaking me out how clueless everyone in my life is about what's happening (and has happened in the past) in the middle east. is he getting invested in israel because he's seeking identity? if that's the case he might not be able to be convinced that israel is a genocidal apartheid state. if he thinks indiscriminately murdering thousands of people is good, he might be a bad person
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Dec 1, 2023 21:25
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Hatebag posted:is he getting invested in israel because he's seeking identity? if that's the case he might not be able to be convinced that israel is a genocidal apartheid state. if he thinks indiscriminately murdering thousands of people is good, he might be a bad person Full throated support of Israel is a very good reason to stop talking to somebody tbh They're either dumb as poo poo or actively full of hate and malice I feel like these are the kind of people who would ask for a ride to the store and then rob it while you're idling in the parking lot. Even if they're not, why be friends with somebody so awful?
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Dec 1, 2023 21:27
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plenty of people are dumb as poo poo, yes
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Dec 1, 2023 21:33
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if you can't fully convince him maybe you can at least put him in balance iow: buy him a keffiyeh to wear with his I support israel shirt op.
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Dec 1, 2023 21:34
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Yeah I've got a couple family members who I helped turn around on the issue. It did take a while. Just try to humanize Palestinians, because they are almost always treated as a mysterious other who hates for no reason. Try to emphasize that they are normal humans with normal human emotions and motivations, and other people would do the same thing in the same circumstances (and have!) There's a reason that other formerly or currently colonized people have much higher support for Palestine, because it's the same thing that is being done to them. If they have support for those other groups that might be a way to help them empathize. But it's not generally going to be a quick thing, just a bit at a time.
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Dec 1, 2023 21:35
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If my relatives don't show up looking like the green faction of the foot clan Christmas is cancelled
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Dec 1, 2023 21:40
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Lord knows I tried turning people around but it just never worked out and frankly made me go insane. Even saying the most basic humanitarian poo poo would cause Zionazis to look at me like they just saw a unicorn. It doesn't loving register.
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Dec 1, 2023 21:42
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what i tell people all the time is you might have sway with close friends or family members who love and trust you but don't waste your time on anyone else. just be clear in your position and plant potential seeds of change when you can. and obvi never ever post online
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Dec 1, 2023 21:49
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And if you start with some of the verifiable terrible history, you will sound like a frothing lunatic. Even if it's something verified through IDF archives. By a Zionist historian who thinks Israel didn't go far enough. But of course what Israel has done is essentially the same as what other countries have done to indigenous populations, just this time in an age of global communication, now instant and available to almost everyone.
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Dec 1, 2023 21:53
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you gotta ease them in. it's like if pop culture had nazis as really cool dudes and you're trying to convince them otherwise. you gotta start with like "maybe the nazis hosed up a bit??" before you name drop individual gas chambers. or sever, it's usually not worth it
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Dec 1, 2023 21:55
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And be prepared to reinforce what you've already said from time to time when they're exposed to more of the old slogans and talking points. My SO was an easy sell on sympathy with Palestine when she asked for a quick primer and I laid it all out. A few nights ago she told me that a friend had shared a social media status saying she felt "from the river to the sea" was eliminationist rhetoric that she felt "threatened" by, and that she didn't know how to feel about what her friend had posted. I explained it's literally, on its face, a call for liberation and freedom not violence, and why would that be inherently threatening to anyone? I suggested to the degree it was it was because the oppressor and those who identify with them always imagine the freedom of the oppressed coming at their "expense," can only imagine the tables turned violently on them rather than restored to equity.
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Dec 1, 2023 21:57
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maybe just start with “dude they’re literally committing genocide” ? you can literally infer it from cnn or nytimes
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Dec 1, 2023 22:01
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A relative sent me stuff about the DSA being anti-semitic because they were collecting money to help Palestinians - not because they were doing anything specifically anti-Israel or pro-Hamas, but because they were requesting money to help victims. The best I could get after a short conversation (I've been here before and it's just a morass trying to actually reason with them) was agreement that "civilians on both sides should not be suffering as they are, and many have been murdered by people who will not solve the problem." Milquetoast and succdem adjacent, but you gotta take baby steps with people. The relative in question is the sort of person who, upon knowing basically anyone personally down on their luck in the most tangental way, becomes a strong advocate to help them out of their situatoin. Had me donate some baby clothes to people I never met that he knew needed them, etc. But they also listen to Fox News and AM talk radio and so the nebulous Other is always some wiley bastard out to get us. Propaganda works, but if you can find cracks where the person is trying to be decent and approach from that angle, you can at least work with inertia to some degree.
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Dec 1, 2023 22:04
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its important to remember that someone saying they feel "threatened" doesn't mean you have to give a gently caress about how they feel. every twitchy cop, racists will say the same thing
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Dec 1, 2023 22:05
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it must suck to grow up lib - no wonder goons are hosed up. I can convince anyone in my family to side against evil by just pointing out democrats support it
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Dec 1, 2023 22:08
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https://twitter.com/BTnewsroom/status/1730368241581580530?t=Wtib3l43E3WICSRtoocfcA&s=19
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Dec 1, 2023 22:10
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Lazy_Liberal posted:what i tell people all the time is you might have sway with close friends or family members who love and trust you but don't waste your time on anyone else. just be clear in your position and plant potential seeds of change when you can. Posts like these make me miss my best friend. Every issue we agreed on or he was even more strident. He sure showed up to a lot more demonstrations than I did. I know that he would be in the mix of Palestine freedom marches/actions, 100 percent.
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Dec 1, 2023 22:10
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I think ironically linking people to videos of IDF soldiers beinga full-throatedly awful can help. Words are nice and all, but a picture is worth a thousand words, let alone multiple frames per second filmed from first-person PoV. Additionally if the person you are talking to is non-white or non-cishet it is very very easy to peg the soldiers as cop-brained, and sympathy with fellow victims will do the rest. v bud we just had a video posted of soldiers making GBS threads on prayer rugs, don't be obtuse. gore does not have to factor into it Ramie has issued a correction as of 22:15 on Dec 1, 2023 |
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Dec 1, 2023 22:12
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Seems like if showing your friend this isn't enough, your friend is a bad person: https://twitter.com/AvigdorLiberman/status/1730297081959530685
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Dec 1, 2023 22:12
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Ramie posted:I think ironically linking people to videos of IDF soldiers beinga full-throatedly awful can help. Words are nice and all, but a picture is worth a thousand words, let alone multiple frames per second filmed from first-person PoV. sending gore to admitted fascists will snap them out of it, I bet
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Dec 1, 2023 22:13
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https://twitter.com/ryangrim/status/1730695483398537666
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Dec 1, 2023 22:22
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how unsurprising of Hitler 2
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Dec 1, 2023 22:25
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gotta post gore so I can send it to my family
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Dec 1, 2023 22:26
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Shageletic posted:Posts like these make me miss my best friend. Every issue we agreed on or he was even more strident. He sure showed up to a lot more demonstrations than I did. I know that he would be in the mix of Palestine freedom marches/actions, 100 percent. blessings
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Dec 1, 2023 22:26
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Constipated posted:One of my oldest friends who is not an online person just got a support Israel shirt, and I really don't know what to say to him. We exchanged a few messages the day after October 7th and he told me he had been listening to audio books about Judaism and Israel, and he is a big fan of Ari Shaffir.. Its really freaking me out how clueless everyone in my life is about what's happening (and has happened in the past) in the middle east. I'm sorry, I have some idiot people in my life too who are like this. It's mainly ignorance, they think this just has to do with religion when it's about colonialism, the narrative is just the conveniently victimized poor-us religious angle. Have him read up on international law and how countries can legally push back and are well within their rights to do so, have him read up on self determination. He can watch / listen to some Norman Finkelstein, someone who's been fighting the good fight for a long, long time. Or, just let the friendship fade out on its own. Some people like doubling down on not knowing a goddamn thing.
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Dec 1, 2023 22:32
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Nobody is gonna do homework
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Dec 1, 2023 22:37
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FuzzySlippers posted:Though thank you for having a reference at hand on a topic I vaguely recall from a book that was many years ago. I think this is just how my mind works now. Happy to help. Another detail about how this way of fighting was detrimental, there are many accounts of US bombing turning everything into impassable rubble, dramatically slowing down their ground forces in Italy, Normandy, the Rhineland and Korea. US forces were also often slowed on the roads by columns of refugees, but I suppose that might have happened even without the medium bombers.
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Dec 1, 2023 22:39
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| # ? May 25, 2024 12:49 |
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Constipated posted:One of my oldest friends who is not an online person just got a support Israel shirt, and I really don't know what to say to him. We exchanged a few messages the day after October 7th and he told me he had been listening to audio books about Judaism and Israel, and he is a big fan of Ari Shaffir.. Its really freaking me out how clueless everyone in my life is about what's happening (and has happened in the past) in the middle east. Wow, difficult issue. Honestly not sure how to assist, i can't remember the last time someone dared to disagree with me.
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Dec 1, 2023 22:40
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