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TheGreyGhost posted:Quinn has an all world arm and some bad bad feet and shoulders because most of his RPOs and bullshit in Sark’s offense are just the natural evolution of the Briles poo poo. Entire offense runs like a pick and roll and hinges on him being like 60% of what he can be. Found my boys
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Dec 2, 2023 01:07
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I’m about to watch this PAC12 game, are Nix and or Penix expected to be first rounders?
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Dec 2, 2023 02:06
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AndrewP posted:I’m about to watch this PAC12 game, are Nix and or Penix expected to be first rounders? Neither should. I wouldn't put it past a team making a desperation first round qb pick
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Dec 2, 2023 02:09
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AndrewP posted:I’m about to watch this PAC12 game, are Nix and or Penix expected to be first rounders? Probably day 2. Penix could rise but he's had an underwhelming second half of the season.
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Dec 2, 2023 02:23
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Ornery and Hornery posted:Found my boys I’m so excited for the litmus test of what coaches and scouts say “I can fix him”. Quinn just genuinely has gotten by on having an incredible sense for his arm angles because his feet are poo poo and he doesn’t really look until he’s staring at his throw. It’s absolutely hilarious how little anyone has tried to enforce footwork on him or any sense of timing routes. RPO world makes a lot of his decisions easier, but if you watch him run like double China he reads it the way Kenny Pickett did—not a compliment because you can use either of those as a rorshach and discover how a QB predicts coverages will work for better or worse very quickly. I think his best throws are in max protection when he’s hitting a crosser or vertical read where he essentially sets up like a trick shot. Milton is so funny man. Just absolutely no interest in ever learning to take something off. I want the dolphins to take a flyer on him so badly because I think turning him into a vert guy off the Shanny tree or running Arians poo poo from a simplified view are the only chance he has. Literally, that offense is predicated on going “1, 2, run” and he still misses reads and throws all the goddamn time, but his arm is such a stupid weapon that just running fast guys out there could theoretically put 80 yards of the field in play every down. I don’t know exactly what he’ll run but 4.6 at 6’5 250 isn’t impossible so he probably makes the AR/Newton tier of “holy loving poo poo that guy has tools”. He’s just like an even more limited version of AR in the throws in his tool kit, and he couldn’t even handle the Josh Gattis offense that even Cade loving McNamara could.
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Dec 2, 2023 07:39
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Henchman of Santa posted:Probably day 2. Penix could rise but he's had an underwhelming second half of the season. Penix is so intriguing. He looks shaky when they move him around but he was originally a dual threat QB. His arm is just so loving good, he was throwing receivers open all game and he turns the wide college hashes into a weapon because he can throw laser out breaking routes to the far side. If his shakiness rolling out is because he’s just being overly protected by his coaches and isn’t as comfortable throwing on the move because he’s not doing it a ton, he’ll be great. I think that’s the case. Seems like Franklin is okay, I was actually feeling bad for a Duck when he went down for a bit. He’s going to be a beast. My sick hope is him and Rome get drafted by the same team and become a two headed monster for 10 years, torching former SEC DBs in the name of God’s One True Conference.
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Dec 2, 2023 07:46
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I think the injuries really sapped Penix's mobility more than anything. When he rolls out, I wouldn't call it shaky, just plain slow
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Dec 2, 2023 08:55
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Yeah I wouldn't really call Penix a dual threat he's more of a tuck and run and yea that's all gone now from the injuries. Last nights game was really miserable. Both teams were checkdown artists. Penix is really good at picking up on pressure and getting the ball out to a good outlet. He also had a poo poo ton of time behind his line and even then wasn't really hitting big.
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Dec 2, 2023 17:44
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how high is d'vondre sweat going to go
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Dec 2, 2023 18:56
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is Trotter Jr gonna be good also technical question for Daltos/GG: how much can arm strength reasonably be improved, and at the D1/nfl level is it actually strength that's being built or technique? also there have been QBs with average or slightly below average arms who are very good/have gotten very good at throwing deep without looking better at winging it outside the numbers or fastballs over the middle, is that just developing better anticipation/putting more loft on the ball or changing something mechanically for longer throws?
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Dec 2, 2023 19:12
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indigi posted:is Trotter Jr gonna be good Help I just learned there's a Jeremiah Trotter Jr and my hip broke
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Dec 2, 2023 19:45
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indigi posted:is Trotter Jr gonna be good It depends on where he goes, scheme fit is tricky and real important for off the ball linebackers. IMO he's perfect for the Fangio tree teams and I hope Miami gets him. Don't give him a zillion loving things to check and memorize, just give him consistency and let him play instinctually and give him some fire zone work.
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Dec 2, 2023 20:00
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Doltos posted:Yeah I wouldn't really call Penix a dual threat he's more of a tuck and run and yea that's all gone now from the injuries. Penix had throws of 22, 34, 31, 25, 19, 17, none of which had substantial YAC. I don’t know if we watched the same game. Part of the issue over the past few weeks was him NOT making the safe dump offs. Integrating McMillan back in on short out-breaking routes was super smart gameplan and opened up a lot of the running plays and deep balls. Oregon and Nix are absolutely “checkdown merchants” in that they scheme open receivers close to the LoS and pick up tons of YAC. It’s how Nix has like a hundred more completions than everyone else close to him in the Completion% chart. That stuff works until you play good teams with athletes than can blow up those plays. That happened quite a few times last night, especially early when UW stuffed UO’s first couple of drives.
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Dec 2, 2023 20:45
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Also, I think Penix still has his legs, he’s just being told to not freaking chance it. They’ve been running him more and more as the season has progressed and he’s been pulling it down more as well. Early in the season we struggled with goal line stuff and it looked like it was going to be a serious issue.
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Dec 2, 2023 20:51
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A Buffer Gay Dude posted:Penix had throws of 22, 34, 31, 25, 19, 17, none of which had substantial YAC. I don’t know if we watched the same game. I remember him popping off some throws but the majority of that game felt like checkdowns and quick hits. Bunch of screens to Polk and quick outs to Odunze. I guess McMillan was was popping off with that one deep ball down the sideline.
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Dec 2, 2023 20:58
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TheGreyGhost posted:I’m so excited for the litmus test of what coaches and scouts say “I can fix him”. Seattle doesn’t have a second round pick. Will these brawny boys last until middle of round 3?
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Dec 2, 2023 22:03
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R.D. Mangles posted:how high is d'vondre sweat going to go And now that he’s a TD threat…?
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Dec 2, 2023 22:55
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Black Lighter posted:Help I just learned there's a Jeremiah Trotter Jr and my hip broke I think there's like four famous sons coming out this year - Kris Jenkins son, jeremiah Trotter jnr, Marvin Harrison jnr and I forget the 4th.
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Dec 2, 2023 23:15
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Hamhandler posted:It depends on where he goes, scheme fit is tricky and real important for off the ball linebackers. Agreed with this. indigi posted:also technical question for Daltos/GG: how much can arm strength reasonably be improved, and at the D1/nfl level is it actually strength that's being built or technique? also there have been QBs with average or slightly below average arms who are very good/have gotten very good at throwing deep without looking better at winging it outside the numbers or fastballs over the middle, is that just developing better anticipation/putting more loft on the ball or changing something mechanically for longer throws? Anything can be improved with training and technique. The question is just always if you want to. Mahomes isn't traditional at all and he's lethal because of it. On the flip side Josh Allen massively improved due to his form upgrade. The way you improve arm strength is foot placement and torque. It's transferring power systems from different groups of muscles. The legs plant, create torque, that transfers up through the torso which is rotating to produce its own power from the abdominals, up into the release point and fulcrum of the arm. A good example of the ideal transfer of power is Baker Mayfield. He can bomb it super deep despite his stature because he whips his entire body into it like a golfer. To throw the ball farther QBs are also taught to open their body and lean farther back. Opening your body creates torque and leaning backwards is basically the same concept as a catapult.
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Dec 2, 2023 23:17
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IIRC Baker has the longest air yard pass in the NFL, dude can sling it. Rodgers has the longest completion iirc in air yards and his mechanics had to be rebuilt.
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Dec 2, 2023 23:29
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BlindSite posted:I think there's like four famous sons coming out this year - Kris Jenkins son, jeremiah Trotter jnr, Marvin Harrison jnr and I forget the 4th. Lassiter out of Georgia?
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Dec 2, 2023 23:33
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Ornery and Hornery posted:Seattle doesn’t have a second round pick. Will these brawny boys last until middle of round 3? I have faith in PCJS to trade back from the 1st to the 2nd. The problem is that I also have faith that the pick they just acquired will then be used on a running back.
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Dec 2, 2023 23:34
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wandler20 posted:Lassiter out of Georgia? Sanders is who I was thinking of. So wait, there's 5.
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Dec 2, 2023 23:49
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BlindSite posted:I think there's like four famous sons coming out this year - Kris Jenkins son, jeremiah Trotter jnr, Marvin Harrison jnr and I forget the 4th. Baseball is now so littered with Famous Sons that I feel like I need to apply for an AARP card
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Dec 3, 2023 00:31
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BlindSite posted:Sanders is who I was thinking of. So wait, there's 5. You are also forgetting Frank Gore Jr. Who just declared for the draft from Southern Miss.
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Dec 3, 2023 03:19
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indigi posted:is Trotter Jr gonna be good Couple notes here: The saying in strength training is that your absolute strength is the glass that determines what you can do. Arm strength does that for QBs too. Technique is an optimization problem. A dude who has an extremely live arm at lower levels typically doesn’t lose it but can lose margin with bad mechanics and footwork. Early Mahomes and Allen put a lot of balls on tape in college where they just didn’t know how to rein in their arms with the weight transfer and feet—lots of big arm guys only really know how to adjust their arm angles and wrist at an early age. Weird arc balls, fastballs, strange misses tend to come from bad technique with a good arm. Same time, weak arms will float balls, miss short or on the inside shoulder and get picked more frequently. Reason 1 that people chase starters with big arms—statistics back that on a relative basis the misses from a big arm are more beneficial than a weak one. Good mechanics raise your floor but can’t solve for the maximum distance you get or a peak velocity past a point. Every mechanical improvement is just bringing you closer to whatever 100% of your arm potential is—for most guys I think that’s about 10-20% velocity improvement on short-intermediate routes in the league and maybe 5-10% on deeper balls. Weight transfer, minimal drag/wasted arm motion, and minimal release times are the things that drive velocity because it’s just maximizing how much force you’re transferring into a ball going to a place shorter than your max distance. Kirk Cousins had terrible mechanics coming out and couldn’t hit an out for poo poo. He cleaned a lot of that up and makes consistent short game throws at an NFL level now. Zach Wilson had one of the best releases we’ve seen coming out but lost confidence in feet and weight transfer and has fallen apart. Deshaun’s motion didn’t transfer weight effectively but had a decent release and bark path. Burrow’s weight transfer is incredible but fell apart during his calf injury. Josh Rosen had some of the best mechanics you’ll find in pairing feet and arm. Notice, I’m covering the gamut of quarterback performance here to illustrate that a mechanical flaw is something where you can theoretically do better while also acknowledging that doing things well don’t inherently clean things up. Anticipation is the problem solved that can make a weak arm with average mechanics into something special. Burrow has a bottom 10 arm for starters—doesn’t matter because his ball placement for whatever his mechanics produce is otherworldly. Tua is bottom 10 but doesn’t have to throw hard because the offense expects him to hang balls out for fast guys. Knowing where a ball can go and hitting it is essentially a way of creating margin if you and your receiver are capable of hitting a mailbox throw against what should theoretically be good coverage. The best improvement in velocity I can think of offhand is Watson. Looked pitiful at Clemson, suddenly hit layer throws in stride when he feet got fixed. Call it like a 50% improvement and serious outlie to a normal 10-15%r. Air yards? I can’t think of anyone maximizing those significantl—5 to 10% from better weight transfer but max effort is max effort. Consider velocity and air yards as in tension on some level. The hardest thing to do is throw a fast ball for fewer air yards because I have to transfer the force into the ball flight’s speed but not the trajectory. The cue of “throw as hard as you can” tends to push people into maximizing both. The nfl is predicated on being able to control how much air your hard balls get.
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Dec 3, 2023 07:41
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This isn't a current draft question but another one about evaluation: how did people miss on Bryce's footwork so badly? None of the draft analysis mentioned how poor it was. Going back to look at Alabama film it's all there. Even some of the better write ups here didn't really mention it. Has it just gotten much worse at the pro level, or was it masked because he could stand on flat fleet behind his offensive line? All the footwork problems he's showing in Carolina were there in Alabama. https://x.com/WinksTape/status/1729193757168574909?s=20
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Dec 3, 2023 14:29
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TheGreyGhost posted:Couple notes here: What’s your take on Penix here? I’ve honestly gasped at the velocity on some of his flat-trajectory throws from the far college hash to a route on the other sideline. Edit: this is the most famous example but there are plenty that are shorter and flatter https://www.foxsports.com/watch/play-606739ef900061b A Buffer Gay Dude fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Dec 3, 2023 |
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Dec 3, 2023 16:34
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FizFashizzle posted:This isn't a current draft question but another one about evaluation: how did people miss on Bryce's footwork so badly? Solak pointed out some of the stuff that he does with his feet. Starts at 1:26 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3U11RmPR7ZI
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Dec 3, 2023 17:10
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Cash Monet posted:Solak pointed out some of the stuff that he does with his feet. Starts at 1:26 "(his dropback and bad footwork) doesnt feel like a big deal on the Alabama film, but at the NFL level, everything gets magnified." boy he called that.
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Dec 3, 2023 17:20
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Cash Monet posted:Solak pointed out some of the stuff that he does with his feet. Starts at 1:26 He’s good at the draft. Did Bruglers the BEAST mention the Bryce feet?
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Dec 3, 2023 17:56
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FizFashizzle posted:This isn't a current draft question but another one about evaluation: how did people miss on Bryce's footwork so badly? On my end I thought that Bryce could get away with it. I don't think footwork matters that much on short routes which Bryce excelled at. Kind of like how a shortstop can do an off balance throw because the torque of the elbow snapping. Like GG said the margins in the NFL are so exact that having just a little bit off can dumpster your career. For what it's worth I think he still looks the same in college on the short routes, it's just when he has to push the ball you see what happens in that video. Locked legs after a drop back basically kills any chance of delivering a speedy ball beyond 10 yards. He definitely has to fix that. Either way if I could accurately predict QBs I'd be hired by every team in the league. Dane Brugler himself had Bryce at #1 and doesn't mention his footwork anywhere in his blurb. I'm just looking through past rankings and he had Josh Rosen as the #1 QB in 2018 (like I did). He had Zach Wilson as the second best QB in 2021. poo poo ain't easy.
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Dec 3, 2023 18:12
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And I’m not criticizing anyone btw, I’m just genuinely curious. I like reading the evaluations in this thread.
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Dec 3, 2023 18:14
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Does footwork matter when the QB has the feet of a small Victorian child?
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Dec 3, 2023 18:16
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FizFashizzle posted:And I’m not criticizing anyone btw, I’m just genuinely curious. No I know. I think that if any draft person gets offended about being wrong then their brains are all fucky. It's impossible to be right all the time and it's really easy to be corrected by someone who watches more about a prospect than you. I rely on people being like nope Penix wasn't checking down at all so I can rewatch with a better view point.
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Dec 3, 2023 18:16
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whatever happened to cian fahey, i feel like people used to post his tweets about quarterbacks all the time and then he just dropped off the face of the earth like i remember people pointing out that he seemed to like, not actually know anything about what he was talking about and just played favorites with certain QBs but when has that ever stopped anybody
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Dec 3, 2023 18:34
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Alaois posted:whatever happened to cian fahey, i feel like people used to post his tweets about quarterbacks all the time and then he just dropped off the face of the earth Never recovered from his Gamer Moment.
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Dec 3, 2023 19:00
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FizFashizzle posted:Never recovered from his Gamer Moment. omg i completely forgot about The Heated Gamer Moment...
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Dec 3, 2023 19:38
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So I had Stroud over Young - this is one that I kind of get to victory lap a little bit. And in general I have a decent success rate at QB (no other positions though, don’t know them nearly enough to make any intelligent analysis). But conversely, I thought Pickett would be really good. There was a lot of tape in his last year where he looked fantastic - throwing into tight coverage, placing the ball perfectly, etc. It reminded me of Burrow’s one year wonder. Yeah, poo poo’s hard man.
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Dec 3, 2023 19:44
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Kirios posted:So I had Stroud over Young - this is one that I kind of get to victory lap a little bit. And in general I have a decent success rate at QB (no other positions though, don’t know them nearly enough to make any intelligent analysis).  I also had Kyle Hamilton as the second best player in the 2022 draft. Ignore Malik Willis in my top 20... https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NrqG5bDrSpFmj2HLLv1cwpAyXyHubTd2K--lM7v7WEo/edit?usp=sharing https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16iNzH-jSmheg0_TeD2Owe4ynV2yzvDJX8N8a6rE0-RA/edit?usp=sharing
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Dec 3, 2023 20:02
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