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Civilized Fishbot posted:The IDF and Shin Bet had a 40 page plan written up by Hamas describing exactly this assault, stage by stage, including the paragliders and detailed IDF secrets. Three months beforehand, they caught Hamas running a huge drill that exactly lined up to the plan. And they ignored it all, because they thought Hamas was moving toward peace and because they thought Hamas just wasn't capable of something like this. I just came to share this, they are going to crucify Netanyahu for this, holy gently caress 
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Dec 1, 2023 05:38
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I imagine it's as simple as "the resolution doesn't do anything, but it abuses enough antiracism language to use as a beatstick". Going against it doesn't help anyone (even in the hypothetical where their opposition would kill it), just bait to fish out some talking points for AIPAC's crusade against the Squad.
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Dec 1, 2023 05:39
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Mean Baby posted:Where in the article does it talk about Hamas “moving toward peace” which would also imply Israel was interested in “peace”. I’m sincerely asking as I don’t have access to the article. "Israel had also misread Hamas’s actions. The group had negotiated for permits to allow Palestinians to work in Israel, which Israeli officials took as a sign that Hamas was not looking for a war." That's the whole paragraph and about as far as article goes on that subject - the rest is about the IDF not thinking that Hamas has what it takes to do this at the scale of hundreds of men making it through the wall. I wished the article tied in another important cause in the total state-military failure - the army, at the time of invasion, focusing on supporting settler violence in the West Bank. Unrelated thought - one of the claims in that resolution is that the State of Israel has a right to exist. I don't like the idea that states have rights period. People have rights - everyone everywhere has a right to safety, dignity, representative egalitarian government, and immunity to forced movement. I don't know what it adds to say that states have rights but maybe there's a case where this kind of thinking is valid. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Dec 1, 2023 |
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Dec 1, 2023 05:53
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silly mane posted:So this happened: It's a meaningless messaging bill that is specifically designed to let the creators ruin the careers of people voting against it. Look at the bottom "resolved" elements, and think about how it will be portrayed if you are voting against any of those. To wit, look at the virtually nonexistent "stop zionist hate" organization that mediated your coverage of it from the opposite direction. They've got a remarkable lack of a footprint, I can't find anything about them immediately other than a symbol I'm still trying to track down from their earlier posts. edit: ugh, I give up. They're someone's proxy, they alternate between screenshots that someone is taking directly, what appears to be material taken from 4chan's ongoing threads on the conflict (which I've not got the patience to ford), and occasionally video clips that they're getting somewhere else and which have what appears to be new video effects. edit 2: since they're using the same edited images and formatting, the even more anonymous "stoparabhate" twitter account has the same owners. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 06:35 on Dec 1, 2023 |
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Dec 1, 2023 05:58
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Unrelated thought - one of the claims in that resolution is that the State of Israel has a right to exist. I don't like the idea that states have rights period. People have rights - everyone everywhere has a right to safety, dignity, representative egalitarian government, and immunity to forced movement. I don't know what it adds to say that states have rights but maybe there's a case where this kind of thinking is valid. I'd assume that it's part of bypassing any question on if Israel as a project is justified. Being only 70 years old and explicitly founded on uprooting the natives, it's at more of a risk than one might think, even if nukes mean that a military upheaval is out of the picture. There's plenty of failed ethnostates that Israel can be compared to (I'd love to see just one pundit respond to "Do you agree that Israel has a right to exist?" with "Did Rhodesia have a right to exist?), and they've obviously done plenty to merit a discussion on if Israel is a belligerent state worth protecting. If it's accepted that Israel has a right to exist, then logic dictates that any movement to stop Israel from existing is inherently wrong, which ties into the narrative of Hamas as a purely anti-Israel entity inherently being wrong. This is a bit more of a reach, but I wouldn't be surprised if it also works on a level of humanizing Israel the state, to more easily equate with Jews. Jews have a right to exist, Israel has a right to exist.
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Dec 1, 2023 06:19
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Neurolimal posted:This is a bit more of a reach, but I wouldn't be surprised if it also works on a level of humanizing Israel the state, to more easily equate with Jews. Jews have a right to exist, Israel has a right to exist. Yes it absolutely facilitates this equation, I can't tell you how many times I've heard "the State of Israel has a right to exist like every other state and there's no reason to treat it differently except anti-Semitism." Or "criticize Israel all you want, but to question its very right to exist is clearly antisemitic." And I'm weirded out by that implication that states all have a right to exist. I think saying states have rights is honestly some crazy 1984 stuff. People have rights because they're precious and irreplaceable. States are, at best, ugly machines that operate on behalf of the people. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Dec 1, 2023 |
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Dec 1, 2023 06:30
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Neurolimal posted:I imagine it's as simple as "the resolution doesn't do anything, but it abuses enough antiracism language to use as a beatstick". Going against it doesn't help anyone (even in the hypothetical where their opposition would kill it), just bait to fish out some talking points for AIPAC's crusade against the Squad. Discendo Vox posted:It's a meaningless messaging bill that is specifically designed to let the creators ruin the careers of people voting against it. Look at the bottom "resolved" elements, and think about how it will be portrayed if you are voting against any of those. OK yeah this explanation tracks, it was kind of what I was leaning towards as most plausible, much moreso than 'surprise! Ilhan Omar is a Zionist now'. I realize that vote is a no-win situation but drat, it's still a bad look and will definitely, as designed, be used to illegitimately erode some number of young people's trust in left-wing democrats. Slimy, underhanded poo poo, but of course typical. As for that Twitter account, yeah I had taken a quick look and thought it was a bit sketchy, plus the weird outrage-lib K-Hive broke-brained tenor of the replies really threw up an additional red flag, but the story itself is accurately (if superficially) reported in that tweet, and as mentioned I had found other sources as well as the text of the resolution itself. I definitely could've pulled a better link for it though, and that's an interesting dive/breakdown you've done there. I continue to find the proliferation of those kind of accounts annoying, bleak and downright creepy. Thanks you two for the quick responses. silly mane fucked around with this message at 06:53 on Dec 1, 2023 |
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Dec 1, 2023 06:47
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Yes it absolutely facilitates this equation, I can't tell you how many times I've heard "the State of Israel has a right to exist like every other state and there's no reason to treat it differently except anti-Semitism." Or "criticize Israel all you want, but to question its very right to exist is clearly antisemitic." And I'm weirded out by that implication that states all have a right to exist. Stepping away from Israel and Palestine specifically, of course states have rights. How else would you describe the right to territorial integrity, equality in law with other states, or the right to self-determination? A state having certain rights is fundamentally necessary at this point in history to protect post-colonial states and give a mechanism for anti-colonial resistance fighters to achieve their goal of a recognised and independent state that doesn't see interference. Obviously the colonial powers still flaunt these rights and responsibilities, but that isn't a reason not to have them. And of course states are ugly machines. They are a tool of one class oppressing another. But it's better to have that tool within reach than imposed on you from the other side of the planet. The state will only truly disappear once class society has been abolished.
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Dec 1, 2023 06:48
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Stepping away from Israel and Palestine specifically, of course states have rights. How else would you describe the right to territorial integrity, equality in law with other states, or the right to self-determination? A I think the right to self determination is usually expressed a right of a people/nation/country (which itself creates issues of definition, representation, boundary-drawing), not a right of a state. As for the rest, I can see how the idea of states having rights can coincidentally serve some anticolonial project but it can easily do the opposite - in fact that's how it's working right now, and as you note, in practice it never works the other way. I'm not an anarchist but I'm weirded out by the idea that states have rights, that language strikes me as something that should be reserved for people and not processes. If no one shares my intuition on this then I guess it's just pedantry. My understanding of a right is "the highest class of entitlement, this can't be violated except to protect someone else's rights." So the state having rights makes it an entity whose rights can compete with, even overrule my own - which is exactly what's happening when "Israel has a right to exist" is brought out against "Israel is violating human rights." Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 07:05 on Dec 1, 2023 |
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Dec 1, 2023 07:00
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I'm not sure about the "rights" discourse, but I think there's a strong argument that nations are more abstract until they form states since the world is, after all, a system of states. That's also the argument that communists used in the 20th century to defend the concept of a socialist state. Before the first socialist state, socialism was more of an abstraction or a chimera. There's a qualitative difference in the way we talk about socialism pre- and post-1917.Neurolimal posted:I'd assume that it's part of bypassing any question on if Israel as a project is justified. Being only 70 years old and explicitly founded on uprooting the natives, it's at more of a risk than one might think, even if nukes mean that a military upheaval is out of the picture. There's plenty of failed ethnostates that Israel can be compared to (I'd love to see just one pundit respond to "Do you agree that Israel has a right to exist?" with "Did Rhodesia have a right to exist?), and they've obviously done plenty to merit a discussion on if Israel is a belligerent state worth protecting. If it's accepted that Israel has a right to exist, then logic dictates that any movement to stop Israel from existing is inherently wrong, which ties into the narrative of Hamas as a purely anti-Israel entity inherently being wrong. 
BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Dec 1, 2023 |
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Dec 1, 2023 07:47
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Civilized Fishbot posted:"Israel had also misread Hamas’s actions. The group had negotiated for permits to allow Palestinians to work in Israel, which Israeli officials took as a sign that Hamas was not looking for a war." That's the whole paragraph and about as far as article goes on that subject - the rest is about the IDF not thinking that Hamas has what it takes to do this at the scale of hundreds of men making it through the wall. I wouldn’t describe that as peace. Perhaps within the colonial logic of war vs peace. But for the colonized subject, a more accurate phrase would be, “accepting be subjugated” rather than “moving toward peace”. The colonized do not live in peace. It relates to your questioning of states having “rights”. The establishment of nation-states are central to the the colonial project. The phrase “Israeli has a right to exist” is really just “Israel has a right to subjugate Palestinians” and “Israel has a right to Palestinian land”. It is why a two-state solution is absurd. I think it is far better than the status quo (as does Hamas), but the fundamental contradictions within Israeli’s colonial project make that hard to see as possible. It certainly isn’t just. Their right to exist is fundamentally tied with their desire to subjugate Palestine.
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Dec 1, 2023 07:50
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I think a state establishes its right to exist simply by drawing a line on a map and saying "Everything inside this line is our state, not someone else's state" and getting the rest of the world to agree. Also it should have some sort of national government, and by that standard Israel qualifies* The problem is that Israel not only demands recognition of its right to exist, but its right to exist as a Jewish state, and no one really knows what that means anymore than they knew what the National Home for the Jews meant in the Balfour Declaration, but the 2018 Nation-State Law spells out that only Jews will have the right to national self determination in Israel, and I think not enough people have a problem with that. *Sort of. Ben-Gurion had a charming notion that the historical kingdom of Israel consisted of whatever land the king could physically assert hegemony over, an idea that was precisely three centuries out of date in 1948. In fact, Israel has preferred to settle its borders by treaties with its neighbors, so technically it didn't have a border with Egypt until 1978 and with Jordan until 1994, and still doesn't have an official border with Syria, Lebanon, or a hypothetical Palestinian state.
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Dec 1, 2023 10:19
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The ceasefire expired this morning, and the IDF is back to performing strikes on Gaza. Notably they seem to have demanded the evacuation of Khan Younis to Rafah, as well as intensifying their attacks against it. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/palestinians-say-idf-drops-flyers-in-khan-younis-telling-residents-to-move-out/ Seems like extremely bad (though widely expected) news - the nominal 'safe zone' is shrinking and it does not seem remotely feasible for millions of people to shelter there.
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Dec 1, 2023 11:32
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So they resumed their genocide just like they said they would.
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Dec 1, 2023 14:24
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Blinken said to tell Israel to change strategy for southern Gaza, suggest it won’t have months to win warquote:According to leaked remarks from today’s war cabinet meeting, attended by US Secretary of State Antony Blinken, Blinken told Israel it cannot operate in southern Gaza in the way it has done in the north — a presumed reference to the heavy air bombardment and crushing ground operation — and indicated that Israel has weeks, not months, to complete its declared mission of destroying Hamas.
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Dec 1, 2023 14:47
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Yeah and those comments back up what I have been seeing elsewhere, which is that Israel is not going to let the PA have control over Gaza, but the Gulf States are not going to let Israel run it themselves
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Dec 1, 2023 15:20
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I mean, Gaza is not going to let the PA control Gaza
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Dec 1, 2023 15:33
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Nobody is going to want to indefinitely police a port city that Israel has complete control of, that Israel regularly bombs to the ground on a whim, and whos citizens are going to be incredibly hostile towards perceived collaborators with the state that just bombed the majority of the city. It's just a talking point to diffuse anger; Israel isn't genocidal, they're very serious about turning Gaza into humble friendly Arabs, this war is going to have a positive outcome! The fact that they cant even sign onboard with pretending to favor PA in this context is hilarious. It's all just pomp, especially when you consider that, if we're to believe Israel, they've just spent two months attacking an alleged base that Hamas had already evacuated, and now need to wade into an extra-dense South Gaza, with no actual clue where Hamas is, on a shorter timeframe, having blown a massive chunk of its arsenal turning half of Gaza into rubble, after abruptly stopping a hostage exchange that everyone but Bibi's government was supportive of. Getting rid of Hamas was always a fever dream, now it's delirium.
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Dec 1, 2023 15:42
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So between Israel resuming the bombing of Gaza earlier today and now this, we are back to square one? https://twitter.com/palestinercs/status/1730653995956343055?s=46&t=BHs6Pl38GJXGN2Y4xeriNA
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Dec 1, 2023 19:58
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https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/12/1/israel-hamas-war-live-relief-and-joy-as-more-palestinian-prisoners-freedquote:Israel informs Arab states it wants buffer zone in post-war Gaza: Report So that's the plan for now, it seems. Push the Gazans back and create a no man's land buffer zone within Gaza. Israel informed the Arab states of this intention.
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Dec 1, 2023 20:04
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Oh whoops, turns out the ‘buffer zone’ is just a map with ‘buffer zone’ labeled where Gaza used to be!
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Dec 1, 2023 20:21
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https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/01/birth-and-death-intertwined-gaza-strip Looks like HRW confirmed those decomposing infants that doctors found after the ceasefire
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Dec 2, 2023 01:14
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Israel attacked a Doctors Without Borders convoy on November 18. https://x.com/MSF_canada/status/1730819946362405039?s=20
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Dec 2, 2023 15:17
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I saw a pretty awful video today of Israel bombing a row of apartment buildings. Just methodically one after another completely demolished. Like I know Israel doesn't even try to pretend that the targets are actual Hamas military targets but when you see it like this it's just so egregious that they are simply trying to ethnic cleanse the area. No gore. Just scared people running away and building getting blown up https://youtu.be/lwWzxzYNfMA?si=A1qk2lgKdE26TxJo
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Dec 2, 2023 19:32
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Charliegrs posted:I saw a pretty awful video today of Israel bombing a row of apartment buildings. Just methodically one after another completely demolished. Like I know Israel doesn't even try to pretend that the targets are actual Hamas military targets but when you see it like this it's just so egregious that they are simply trying to ethnic cleanse the area. Is it antisemitic to say gently caress israel at this point? Europe has never been into acting like the World Police but I really wish something was done to stop this madness
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Dec 2, 2023 20:20
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Charliegrs posted:I saw a pretty awful video today of Israel bombing a row of apartment buildings. Just methodically one after another completely demolished. Like I know Israel doesn't even try to pretend that the targets are actual Hamas military targets but when you see it like this it's just so egregious that they are simply trying to ethnic cleanse the area. It's as if you can't tell what is happening inside or around a building just by looking at it. People look at images and video of war and mis-frame it (which is good in a way, war is becoming less and less of a norm globally). Civility has already broken down, that's why a war has broken out. The goal of war, as hellish as it is, is to completely dismantle the enemy's will to fight and to limit the casualties on your own side. It's not a game. You don't want to ensure a fair fight. So it's not dropping bombs indiscriminately on civilians, which in this video would look like the onlookers running away being pulverized. But it is destroying the war machine of the other side -- which may include infrastructure, and horribly in this conflict, even civilian infrastructure -- until it grinds to a halt.
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Dec 2, 2023 20:37
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So what you're saying is you're perfectly fine with terrorism so long as it's the right people doing it?
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Dec 2, 2023 20:41
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Pvt. Parts posted:It's as if you can't tell what is happening inside or around a building just by looking at it. People look at images and video of war and mis-frame it (which is good in a way, war is becoming less and less of a norm globally). Civility has already broken down, that's why a war has broken out. The goal of war, as hellish as it is, is to completely dismantle the enemy's will to fight and to limit the casualties on your own side. It's not a game. You don't want to ensure a fair fight. So it's not dropping bombs indiscriminately on civilians, which in this video would look like the onlookers running away being pulverized. But it is destroying the war machine of the other side -- which may include infrastructure, and horribly in this conflict, even civilian infrastructure -- until it grinds to a halt. If the IDF had evidence to justify these kinds of air strikes they would be showing it.
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Dec 2, 2023 20:58
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Pvt. Parts posted:It's as if you can't tell what is happening inside or around a building just by looking at it. People look at images and video of war and mis-frame it (which is good in a way, war is becoming less and less of a norm globally). Civility has already broken down, that's why a war has broken out. The goal of war, as hellish as it is, is to completely dismantle the enemy's will to fight and to limit the casualties on your own side. It's not a game. You don't want to ensure a fair fight. So it's not dropping bombs indiscriminately on civilians, which in this video would look like the onlookers running away being pulverized. But it is destroying the war machine of the other side -- which may include infrastructure, and horribly in this conflict, even civilian infrastructure -- until it grinds to a halt. If you don't know what's happening in a building then you don't get to blow it up and act like it's justified. Destroying random buildings in Gaza (its literaly random, the IDF has an AI that is giving them random targets) is not dismantling a war machine.
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Dec 2, 2023 21:18
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National Parks posted:(its literaly random, the IDF has an AI that is giving them random targets) Source for this? (I'm not actually doubting it so much as morbidly interested in the details.)
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Dec 2, 2023 21:32
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go play outside Skyler posted:Is it antisemitic to say gently caress israel at this point? Honestly I think It's better to say gently caress Netanyahu and Likud
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Dec 2, 2023 21:35
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Silver2195 posted:Source for this? (I'm not actually doubting it so much as morbidly interested in the details.) +972 article which is probably the big one recently, but also a Guardian article about it (and the +972/Local Call article)
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Dec 2, 2023 21:47
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Lord Lambeth posted:Honestly I think It's better to say gently caress Netanyahu and Likud I think that's just a different idea - a good idea but not a replacement for criticizing the State of Israel. The Israeli state has deep structural problems caused by the attempt to build an ethnostate on land widely inhabited by people of a different ethnicity. These problems, which are killing tens of thousands of people and ruining the lives of millions, are not caused by Netanyahu or Likud (who do exacerbate and exploit them) I don't think at this point, for basically everyone here, it's worth worrying that their criticism of Israel is antisemitic. Every non-Jew I know who's anti-Israel, both on this board and in real life, is extremely insistent on separating that from any affiliation with American Jews (to the point of insisting on basically incorrect ideas like that Zionism and Israel aren't popular among American Jews, that the existence of the state of Israel is in defiance of Jewish religion, that the Neturei Karta are principled anti-imperialists, etc). At this point I think if we're going to worry about stuff like this it should be, "do these sentiments encourage hatred or fear toward Israeli people?" You can have bigotry against Israelis that isn't particularly anti-semitic just like America during WWI and WWII had bigotry against Germans (and later on the Japanese too) which wasn't really aimed at their religions. And in this thread we've had people talk about Israelis in ludicrous ways parallel to the Israeli state's insane slurs against Palestinians: questioning whether Israeli civilians are entitled safety, suggesting they should all be thrown out of Palestine, calling for their collective punishment. The big concern should be stopping the destruction of Gaza and conquest of the West Bank which are killing tens of thousands and ruining millions of lives, and the biggest local concern for most posters here should be addressing anti-Palestinian bigotry which is actually getting people killed and shot at in America. But if we're going to worry about rage at Israel developing a prejudicial expression, I think the concern there should be prejudice against Israelis, not prejudice against Jews in general. Related anecdote: Very soon after the Oct 7 attacks, I was waiting for a cab to the airport with my luggage. A neighbor passed by and asked if I was flying to Israel to fight in the IDF. He was completely sincere. Very unsettling to think that someone was sorting me like that. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Dec 2, 2023 |
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Dec 2, 2023 21:58
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I think that's just a different idea - a good idea but not a replacement for criticizing the State of Israel. The Israeli state has deep structural problems caused by the attempt to build an ethnostate on land widely inhabited by people of a different ethnicity. These problems, which are killing tens of thousands of people and ruining the lives of millions, are not caused by Netanyahu or Likud (who do exacerbate and exploit them) The best thing I think you can do is to criticize the concrete policies that israel has done. If israel did not exist, a jewish homeland somewhere would still be needed, at least in the eyes of many jews. I think if you just say "gently caress israel", I think that could certainly be perceived as antisemitic out of context.
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Dec 2, 2023 22:06
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Lord Lambeth posted:The best thing I think you can do is to criticize the concrete policies that israel has done. If israel did not exist, a jewish homeland somewhere would still be needed, at least in the eyes of many jews. Any state that requires a single ethic or religious group to be in power is going to require immoral acts to exist.
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Dec 2, 2023 22:12
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I think it's fine to say "gently caress Israel". It's a fascist apartheid state and deserves every possible criticism. Nothing antisemitic about it.
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Dec 2, 2023 22:13
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Lord Lambeth posted:The best thing I think you can do is to criticize the concrete policies that israel has done. If israel did not exist, a jewish homeland somewhere would still be needed, at least in the eyes of many jews. The problem with the policies is that they're aimed at creating an exclusive homeland for a particular ethnicity, where "homeland" is understood to mean "the government is necessarily primarily concerned with the welfare of people of this ethnicity." The attempt to build a homeland on land inhabited by other people - settler colonialism - has not -gone- morally wrong, it -is- morally wrong. The idea you reference that "a Jewish homeland somewhere would still be needed" is indeed tremendously popular among Jewish people. I just got back from lunch at a synagogue and a I'm confident that everyone there, except for me, would've agreed with that idea. If you asked them to elaborate, of course there's be differences of opinion but I think the heart of it is a belief that liberal democracy is unable to protect Jewish people except in a country where the vast majority of the population is Jewish, and which is dominant in local geopolitics. And therefore, in the name of establishing a safe country for Jews, Israel has the right to act illiberally or undemocratically until it achieves the correct demographic balance and geopolitical superiority in its region. I think it goes without saying that there are key problems in this line of thought and that the practical end of it is grotesque - what we are currently seeing in Gaza. To reject it is not ethnic or national prejudice. Again if we are going to worry about the struggle against the Israeli state becoming prejudiced - although so far it's the anti-Palestinain campaign n the West which is actually killing people - the first concern should be prejudice against Israeli Jews, which might expand out to Jews in general. I've seen very little invective against Jews in general (lovely Twitter accounts and graffiti) but a lot more invective against Israelis which was nationally chauvinistic. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Dec 2, 2023 |
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Dec 2, 2023 22:17
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The thing is that for PR reasons the IDF drops fliers before striking (....usually), but this also means that anyone associated with Hamas is also going to have left the area. The idea only works if there's a schism between the public and Hamas, one that the IDF can discretely exploit. There isn't one, so all this accomplishes is devastating the infrastructure of gaza and inflicting cruel collective punishment. Buildings, I imagine, also absorb a good chunk of the kinetic energy of the blast, which means less of it reaches underground, which means less tunnel damage than if they, say, aimed for the streets. But destroying Gaza is the objective, the cruelty is the point: Dahiya Doctrine undergirds much of Israel's strategy in dealing with Gaza. To summarize it, imagine the Dresden bombings, but as an army-wide objective. "Power targets" are identified, the criteria being utilities/monuments/landmarks/apartment complexes/etc, places of high value to civilians, under the belief that this will demoralize the citizens and make them pressure the insurgents. It's basically looking at failed offensives against insurgency and learning the wrong lesson; "They didn't lose because they were too brutal to civilians, they weren't brutal enough." Ostensibly, a lot of Zionists have argued that Dahiya is no longer in effect, that its moment was in the Second Lebanon War, please dont think about it when looking at the destruction of Gaza. The issue with that is that Gadi Eisenkot, the general who devised the doctrine, is still serving in the government, and in fact is a Minister-without-portfolio. The influence of the doctrine is evident in the rhetoric of the IDF: quote:"The IDF (military) is focussed on Gaza but we are at a very high state of readiness in the north," Hagari said. "Lebanon's citizens will bear the cost of this recklessness, and of Hezbollah's decision to be the defender of Hamas-ISIS." And in their otherwise pointless actions against the West Bank:   You might put on your gruffest voice and go "son, this is war, you do the war things in a war, war crimes are important for war", but the fact that it's modeled after moves like Dresden means we can use such to point out, pretty confidently, that this isn't tactically effective at all. There's a slew of studies and books which cover in explicit detail why terror bombings, on top of being morally repulsive, were tactically ineffective. The greatest argument in their favor has been that it forces the enemy force to engage with yours to defend tactically unimportant targets. This could be a compelling argument in modern times if Hamas had an airforce or motorized infantry that needed degrading. You could also point to sanctions as an example that runs along the same theory of citizen morale & pressure, and how they have failed; Venezuela, Russia, North Korea, Iran. Not only have sanctions not turned public ire inwards, but in many cases it's emboldened nationalism, as it provides a villainous enemy to stand as the bulwark against. And that is with an abstract economic pressure from a distant enemy; you can guess how much more potent that framing can be when it takes the form of foreign airplanes dropping massive bombs on churches. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Dec 2, 2023 |
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Dec 2, 2023 22:21
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If IDF knew about oct-7 and prepared for it and killed 1000 Hamas fighters that day, would that have been the better timeline? Hamas probably would have shot rockets anyway after an oct-7 failure. Israel would have bombed Gaza in retaliation but probably not as much.
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Dec 2, 2023 22:25
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Hamelekim posted:Any state that requires a single ethic or religious group to be in power is going to require immoral acts to exist. There isn't a single ethnicity holding power within israel and freedom of religion is explicitly codified into israeli laws.
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Dec 2, 2023 22:44
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