Shageletic posted:

TIL that loving Fukiyama talked about the atomization brought about by capitalism. What in the world

Missingnoleader posted:

https://twitter.com/tinyfleu/status/1731181785269366843
Glad the girl whose father wishes she was dead is doing well.

alarumklok posted:

you will not make me read Fukiyama, FF. I refuse

Frosted Flake posted:

Yeah, you have to realize that when he says stuff like this, it's in the final chapter of his magnum opus where he has explained that it's good to the point of being teleological. He referred to Donald Trump, by name, as a marker of Liberal Capitalist Democracy in decline:

"The decline of community life suggests that in the future, we risk becoming secure and self-absorbed last men, devoid of thymotic striving for higher goals in our pursuit of private comforts. But the opposite danger exists as well, namely, that we will return to being first men engaged in bloody and pointless prestige battles, only this time with modern weapons. Indeed, the two problems are related to one another, for the absence of regular and con­structive outlets for megalothymia may simply lead to its later re­surgence in an extreme and pathological form.

It is reasonable to wonder whether all people will believe that the kinds of struggles and sacrifices possible in a self-satisfied and prosperous liberal democracy are sufficient to call forth what is highest in man. For are there not reservoirs of idealism that can­ not be exhausted - indeed, that are not even touched - if one be­comes a developer like Donald Trump, or a mountain climber like Reinhold Meissner, or politician like George Bush? Difficult as it is, in many ways, to be these individuals, and for all the recogni­tion they receive, their lives are not the most difficult, and the causes they serve are not the most serious or the most just. And as long as they are not, the horizon of human possibilities that they define will not be ultimately satisfying for the most thymotic na­tures .

In particular, the virtues and ambitions called forth by war are unlikely to find expression in liberal democracies. There will be plenty of metaphorical wars - corporate lawyers specializing in hostile takeovers who will think of themselves as sharks or gun-slingers, and bond traders who imagine, as in Tom Wolfe's novel The Bonfire of the Vanities, that they are "masters of the universe." (They will believe this, however, only in bull markets.) But as they sink into the soft leather of their BMWs, they will know some­ where in the back of their minds that there have been real gun­ slingers and masters in the world, who would feel contempt for the petty virtues required to become rich or famous in modern America. How long megalothymia will be satisfied with metaphor­ical wars and symbolic victories is an open question. One suspects that some people will not be satisfied until they prove themselves by that very act that constituted their humanness at the beginning of history: they will want to risk their lives in a violent battle, and thereby prove beyond any shadow of a doubt to themselves and to their fellows that they are free. They will deliberately seek dis­comfort and sacrifice, because the pain will be the only way they have of proving definitively that they can think well of themselves, that they remain human beings."

FlapYoJacks posted:

“Stupid spoiled children” is a weird way to spell “Horrible monsters who should be tried and sent to labor camps for the rest of their lives for crimes against humanity.”

Missingnoleader posted:

https://twitter.com/tinyfleu/status/1731181785269366843
Glad the girl whose father wishes she was dead is doing well.

Clip-On Fedora posted:

Delusions they'll wipe it off the map maybe. I see stuff like this and I see proof that Israel is a nation of stupid spoiled children.

Owlbear Camus posted:

I saw this and thought "I bet I could actually get Field Marshal Mhewkov to wear one."



He purred when I put it on.

Frosted Flake posted:

One suspects that some people will not be satisfied until they prove themselves by that very act that constituted their humanness at the beginning of history: they will want to risk their lives in a violent battle, and thereby prove beyond any shadow of a doubt to themselves and to their fellows that they are free. They will deliberately seek dis­comfort and sacrifice, because the pain will be the only way they have of proving definitively that they can think well of themselves, that they remain human beings."

Frosted Flake posted:

Is there a word for being an oracle like Cassandra, but also you still think everything you predict is good?

"Liberal democracies, in other words, are not self-sufficient: the community life on which they depend must ultimately come from a source different from liberalism itself. The men and women who made up American society at the time of the found­ing of the United States were not isolated, rational individuals calculating their self-interest. Rather, they were for the most part members of religious communities held together by a common moral code and belief in God. The rational liberalism that they eventually came to embrace was not a projection of that pre­existing culture, but existed in some tension with it. "Self-interest rightly understood" came to be a broadly understandable princi­ple that laid a low but solid ground for public virtue in the United States, in many cases a firmer ground than was possible through appeal to religious or pre-modern values alone. But in the long run those liberal principles had a corrosive effect on the values predating liberalism necessary to sustain strong communities, and thereby on a liberal society's ability to be self-sustaining."

Missingnoleader posted:

https://twitter.com/tinyfleu/status/1731181785269366843
Glad the girl whose father wishes she was dead is doing well.

Frosted Flake posted:

"The decline of community life suggests that in the future, we risk becoming secure and self-absorbed last men, devoid of thymotic striving for higher goals in our pursuit of private comforts. But the opposite danger exists as well, namely, that we will return to being first men engaged in bloody and pointless prestige battles, only this time with modern weapons. Indeed, the two problems are related to one another, for the absence of regular and con­structive outlets for megalothymia may simply lead to its later re­surgence in an extreme and pathological form.

It is reasonable to wonder whether all people will believe that the kinds of struggles and sacrifices possible in a self-satisfied and prosperous liberal democracy are sufficient to call forth what is highest in man. For are there not reservoirs of idealism that can­ not be exhausted - indeed, that are not even touched - if one be­comes a developer like Donald Trump, or a mountain climber like Reinhold Meissner, or politician like George Bush? Difficult as it is, in many ways, to be these individuals, and for all the recogni­tion they receive, their lives are not the most difficult, and the causes they serve are not the most serious or the most just. And as long as they are not, the horizon of human possibilities that they define will not be ultimately satisfying for the most thymotic na­tures .

FlapYoJacks posted:

Israel did a massacre at Jabalia camp in Northern Gaza two~ hours ago. Please do not search for it on Twitter. It is not pretty, it is awful. DTI, DTA, Palestine will be free. I hate that barbaric country so so so so loving much.

Missingnoleader posted:

https://twitter.com/tinyfleu/status/1731181785269366843
Glad the girl whose father wishes she was dead is doing well.

Sancho Banana posted:

You know how liberals and conservatives always hone in on queer people in the west for their support of Palestine? The whole stupid "but they're homophobic over there!!" line?

They love doing that poo poo because they believe that for the wretched of the earth, human rights are conditional. A victim of racism, social marginalization, colonialism, etc has to prove, in the eyes of the opressor, that they qualify for basic human dignity - typically by remaining a perfect victim, obedient and pure, morally unimpeachable from every angle. This is, of course, in opposition to the upper class, for whom human rights are taken for granted, where every person is innocent until proven guilty and the actions of "bad apples" do not influence the entire group's moral standing. The oppressed are forced to engage in this exhausting perpetual ritual of proving their humanity again and again: for example, Muslims in the west who were constantly asked to condemn ISIS back in the 2010s, or Palestinians right now being asked to condemn Hamas - the latter not being quite like the former since ISIS is bad while Hamas is good, but you get my point, it's about how marginalized people constantly have to reaffirm that they're "the good ones". Nobody ever asks Israelis to condemn the violence perpetuated by settlers in the west bank on the Palestinian population, even though those Palestinians are constantly asked to condemn the resistance.

The only way for a member of lower class to fully gain the status of a human, in the case of colonialism, is to be obedient or a collaborator. The conquistadors were glad to grant the Totonac and Tlaxcalteca the title of "good Indians" for assisting them in their war against the Aztec empire, without which the 1519 expedition would be remembered as no more impressive than the rest of Cortes' resume. The rest of the indigenous population was, of course, viewed as inherently subhuman and undeserving of equal rights.

The Voice of Labor posted:

10 of these



4 of these



1 of these

Karach posted:

Isn't this your beef with the neoliberalized military? What form of government is the proper one for ensuring the citizen's thymos remains properly engorged?

Missingnoleader posted:

https://twitter.com/tinyfleu/status/1731181785269366843
Glad the girl whose father wishes she was dead is doing well.

Happy Noodle Boy posted:

https://x.com/lib_crusher/status/1731325210693881895?s=46&t=I-gsjpvNkUNcOBofs8OOkQ

Frosted Flake posted:

Well, he points out earlier, albeit in disparaging terms, that pre-liberal forms of government that emphasized "fairness" over "freedom" inspired people to be engaged with the community. He feels that it held people who possessed, in his words, "innate superiority gifted by nature", back, restricting their freedom to be titans.

So, to answer your question first, Fukuyama would say I'm not a liberal. I would agree, because while he echoes what I see as the causes of our militaries being an absolute poo poo show, as dead gay comedy forums said, he basically thinks a death drive will remedy that:

"This aspect of Hegel's thought has led to the charge that he was a militarist. But he never glorified war for its own sake, or saw it as the chief end of man; war was important for its secondary effects on character and community. Hegel believed that without the possibility of war and the sacrifices demanded by it, men would grow soft and self-absorbed; society would degenerate into a mo­rass of selfish hedonism and community would ultimately dis­solve. Fear of man's "lord and master, Death" was a force like no other, capable of drawing men outside of themselves and remind­ing them that they were not isolated atoms, but members of com­munities built around shared ideals. A liberal democracy that could fight a short and decisive war every generation or so to defend its own liberty and independence would be far healthier and more satisfied than one that experienced nothing but contin­uous peace."

Now, here's the thing: I would prefer, crazy idea, that our peacetime society cultivate community, sacrifices, "drawing men outside of themselves and remind­ing them that they were not isolated atoms, but members of com­munities built around shared ideals". So, rather than a Liberal Capitalist Democracy that literally needs to go to war every generation (wtf) that, we have a good society. This, incidentally, is why Fukuyama was a big regime change guy. I don't know if a lot of people know that. He literally supported war for its own sake, or rather, it was necessary for a million Iraqis to die so that the tensions in American society would be manageable for about 20-30 years.

Sancho Banana posted:

Israel is loving stupid dumbass racist demon baby country of 3 million hitlers, 5 million calm hitlers and 1 millions hitlers who think the hitlering should be done with slower or with better optics, where the utter disconnect the average person has from their humanity the moment the conflict with the Palestinians comes up is some baffling encounter-with-an-alien poo poo, like the zionist brain mushroom implanted on everyone from birth has degraded their ability to react with a modicum of sympathy to the suffering of people living less than 100 kilometers away who are terrorized and slandered for simply existing and not being willing to just take it lying down, where every family and friend group and classroom and bar is the loving nazi party but oh I guess the zoomers are somewhat more subtle/concerned about optics in regards to their only slightly repressed hitlerism so maybe we should give them a gold loving medal. You did it guys, you're 80% hitler instead of 100% hitler, pat yourselves on the back and call yourselves "Israeli leftists" you strasserite rear end pieces of poo poo, oh and let's not forget the truly remarkable plucky little band of Israelis who are totally anti zionist and all but condemn every single violent Palestinian resistance group that exists because they're spineless cunts that get queasy during rocket alarms so I guess that means Hamas should resist peacefully for their comfort, meanwhile the people and children of Gaza are being loving murdered every day with thousands of bombs and all the little demons cheer

gently caress Israel and gently caress Israelis seriously

Frosted Flake posted:

Aside, my ideal military is the parade ground Late-Victorian/Edwardian Army, with all of the pomp and circumstance, alternating with wholesome foreign service. Only instead of occupying India, doing something genuinely nice and helpful.


(but not racist)

Unfortunately, this is not really how foreign service works, unless someday in the future, the UN will issue robin's egg blue Wolseley pattern helmets with white puggarees.

But given the current socioeconomic and political system, anything we do will end up like the IDF, both in the sense of murdering innocent people for no reason, and the military devolving into MIC grift and atomized troops living in lovely barracks, who either hate their job or are there to murder innocent people.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Frosted Flake posted:

Now, here's the thing: I would prefer, crazy idea, that our peacetime society cultivate community, sacrifices, "drawing men outside of themselves and remind­ing them that they were not isolated atoms, but members of com­munities built around shared ideals". So, rather than a Liberal Capitalist Democracy that literally needs to go to war every generation (wtf) that, we have a good society.

Frosted Flake posted:

Well, he points out earlier, albeit in disparaging terms, that pre-liberal forms of government that emphasized "fairness" over "freedom" inspired people to be engaged with the community. He feels that it held people who possessed, in his words, "innate superiority gifted by nature", back, restricting their freedom to be titans.

Clip-On Fedora posted:

lol so Francis is just another guy who had his brain rotted by Objectivism

Willa Rogers posted: