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https://apnews.com/article/red-sea-houthi-yemen-ships-attack-israel-hamas-war-gaza-strip-716770f0a780160e9abed98d3c48fbde According to the US Navy, the Houthis have now taken pot shots at their ships, not just passing commercial ships.
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Dec 3, 2023 21:42
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PurpleXVI posted:https://apnews.com/article/red-sea-houthi-yemen-ships-attack-israel-hamas-war-gaza-strip-716770f0a780160e9abed98d3c48fbde Does that mean it's time to buy Raytheon stock?
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Dec 3, 2023 22:15
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A.o.D. posted:Does that mean it's time to buy Raytheon stock? With America how we are, it is never a bad time to buy MIC stock
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Dec 3, 2023 22:18
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psydude posted:I think it was a pretty big part of cold war diplomacy as well. I recall reading a retrospective analysis that one of the reasons why the US and USSR existed in an awkward peace for most of the cold war was that they were both aware of the "real" thinking and intentions of the other. We're seen that re-emerge here and also with Burns' commiques with the Russians during Prigozhin's aborted coup.
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Dec 3, 2023 22:48
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McNally posted:Ok, calling this thread the "IDF defense crew" clearly eradiates any credibility that you're here in good faith, so I'm just going to go ahead and tell you to gently caress off out of this thread and to never come back. Not the whole thread, just Knox and Psydude. I think better of gip than that, dude.
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Dec 3, 2023 22:52
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too tired, will think about this more later
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Dec 3, 2023 23:25
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Positive, if still fairly insignificant movement intended as a signal to Israel about its broader behavior: the US is imposing a visa ban on some number of extremist West Bank settlers.quote:The Biden administration has informed Israel that Washington will impose visa bans in the next few weeks on Israeli extremist settlers engaged in violence against Palestinian civilians in the occupied West Bank, a senior state department official said.
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Dec 4, 2023 00:01
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psydude posted:I think it was a pretty big part of cold war diplomacy as well. I recall reading a retrospective analysis that one of the reasons why the US and USSR existed in an awkward peace for most of the cold war was that they were both aware of the "real" thinking and intentions of the other. We're seen that re-emerge here and also with Burns' commiques with the Russians during Prigozhin's aborted coup. See also: The Moscow Rules, an unofficial but generally agreed upon set of rules that both agencies adhered to for decades.
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Dec 4, 2023 00:19
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Luceid posted:Not the whole thread, just Knox and Psydude. I think better of gip than that, dude. I think I've posted a grand total of like 3 things about the IDF, and they were mostly commenting on MOUT tactics they were employing, so I don't know where you're getting that I'm the "IDF defense crew."
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Dec 4, 2023 00:57
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There are a few people who are justifiably upset and frustrated about a dire situation they feel powerless to change. I think that feeling might be causing them to lash out.
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Dec 4, 2023 01:00
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A.o.D. posted:There are a few people who are justifiably upset and frustrated about a dire situation they feel powerless to change. I think that feeling might be causing them to lash out. It sucks rear end to see people do the “lashing out” thing here and we really shouldn’t be seeing it as we all get older.
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Dec 4, 2023 01:05
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A.o.D. posted:There are a few people who are justifiably upset and frustrated about a dire situation they feel powerless to change. I think that feeling might be causing them to lash out. They should take a step back from the news and other people, and seek therapy then. Lashing out at others isn't a good coping mechanism.
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Dec 4, 2023 01:46
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I heartily agree, and that's why I'm not very present in this thread. It's just too awful. Log off, go for a walk, smell the flowers, and smile, everyone.
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Dec 4, 2023 02:37
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A.o.D. posted:There are a few people who are justifiably upset and frustrated about a dire situation they feel powerless to change. I think that feeling might be causing them to lash out. Are we talking about posters in this thread, or why people in Gaza might join and support Hamas?
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Dec 4, 2023 05:36
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Fivemarks posted:Are we talking about posters in this thread, or why people in Gaza might join and support Hamas? Indeed.
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Dec 4, 2023 12:25
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Fivemarks posted:Are we talking about posters in this thread, or why people in Gaza might join and support Hamas? Not an empty quote.
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Dec 4, 2023 13:54
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McNally posted:too tired, will think about this more later Go look through all the probations frozenvent has given out in this thread and his reasons for them. A large amount of them are for being mean to people like knox, psydude, and earlier in the thread lum while ignoring just why people might be mean to someone who is defending an ethnostate.
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Dec 4, 2023 15:42
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PookBear posted:Go look through all the probations frozenvent has given out in this thread and his reasons for them. A large amount of them are for being mean to people like knox, psydude, and earlier in the thread lum while ignoring just why people might be mean to someone who is defending an ethnostate. So what? If people can't discuss a topic without melting down they get a 6er. Thats par for course in an I/P thread, along with people reposting the same telephone-game nonsense that comes from elsewhere on the site.
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Dec 4, 2023 16:11
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Grip it and rip it posted:So what? If people can't discuss a topic without melting down they get a 6er. Thats par for course in an I/P thread, along with people reposting the same telephone-game nonsense that comes from elsewhere on the site. I think part of the issue with that approach as a general rule of thumb, is that sometimes you get someone who makes an incredibly ghoulish statement in a very "calm, rational and polite" voice, which might prompt someone people to get upset and go "what the gently caress? you're scum, get out, die, burn." which I consider perfectly understandable in some cases, and eat a probe/ban/etc., but the person who made the ghoulish statement gets a pass based on "well, they were just arguing politely." Sometimes the person who doesn't "melt down" is the person who should eat a 6'er or bigger. Policing content should always be more important than policing tone.
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Dec 4, 2023 16:28
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Grip it and rip it posted:So what? If people can't discuss a topic without melting down they get a 6er. Thats par for course in an I/P thread, along with people reposting the same telephone-game nonsense that comes from elsewhere on the site. No, it's a fair point. I really don't want to throw sixers at people for screaming their throats raw at someone who posts "but what if Gaza had it coming after all?" and escaping punishment because they expressed an abhorrent opinions without no-no words. I think I need to make the language clear that expressing abhorrent opinions, bad faith arguments, and the other kinds of trolling bullshit we see does not qualify as "being excellent to each other."
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Dec 4, 2023 16:30
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McNally posted:No, it's a fair point. I really don't want to throw sixers at people for screaming their throats raw at someone who posts "but what if Gaza had it coming after all?" and escaping punishment because they expressed an abhorrent opinions without no-no words. I mean you told Luceid to get lost for doing basically this, so I think you're already being fairly consistent in that regard.
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Dec 4, 2023 16:40
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McNally posted:No, it's a fair point. I really don't want to throw sixers at people for screaming their throats raw at someone who posts "but what if Gaza had it coming after all?" and escaping punishment because they expressed an abhorrent opinions without no-no words. This conflict is really difficult for people to discuss because there’s decades of abhorrent behavior by both major sides, and currently there are outside cheerleaders (talking beyond just SA) endorsing forms of terrorism and war crimes. Plus disinfo and conspiracy theories to rival what was seen early in the run up to the RUS invasion. I think leadership on both sides is terrible and I like GiP because it’s possible to discuss things from that point of view, plus generally get more level-headed or interesting, relevant news updates and military commentary.
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Dec 4, 2023 17:01
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Haaretz has confirmed only 1 baby was killed on 7 Oct attacks.
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Dec 4, 2023 17:04
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bulletsponge13 posted:Haaretz has confirmed only 1 baby was killed on 7 Oct attacks. Can you post the article saying so? Not directing this at you in particular but I think the "game of telephone" stuff can be easily avoided if people just posted the article where they see particular claims or whatever.
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Dec 4, 2023 17:18
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pmchem posted:This conflict is really difficult for people to discuss because there’s decades of abhorrent behavior by both major sides, and currently there are outside cheerleaders (talking beyond just SA) endorsing forms of terrorism and war crimes. Plus disinfo and conspiracy theories to rival what was seen early in the run up to the RUS invasion. I don't entirely disagree with you, but what's happening to the Palestinians right now is a fairly text book genocide. and eclipses anything the Palestinian groups have ever done or could do, no matter how awful. It's a genocide which scholars of the subject have noted as being atypical only because of just how brazen the Israeli political and military leadership has been in using genocidal rhetoric. People are going to get upset if they perceive someone to be justifying or denying it, even if calmly and politely.
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Dec 4, 2023 17:23
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Here’s a non-paywall. https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-personnel-false-information-7-october-attack
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Dec 4, 2023 17:25
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:I don't entirely disagree with you, but what's happening to the Palestinians right now is a fairly text book genocide. and eclipses anything the Palestinian groups have ever done or could do, no matter how awful. It's a genocide which scholars of the subject have noted as being atypical only because of just how brazen the Israeli political and military leadership has been in using genocidal rhetoric. People are going to get upset if they perceive someone to be justifying or denying it, even if calmly and politely. Yeah, I think it's a fundamental error to try to equate anything the Palestinians or their various factions and armed groups may have done to Israel, to anything Israel has done to them. There's just an insane matter of difference in scale to keep in mind, plus one faction absolutely has the technological, military and economic upper hand and could end the conflict at any moment(on anything resembling the current scale, at least)... so I would say that there is a huge onus of responsibility on them. Hell, if you want to get legalistic about it, that's also the faction that the UN has repeatedly told to please stop and stated that their enemy has a legal right to armed resistance. So I'm not going to say that Palestinean fighters probably haven't done some hosed up things. I'm not going to say any of those things are objectively okay. But I still don't think they in any sense make a "both sides" statement reasonable, logical or helpful to the discussion. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/4/netanyahu-corruption-trial-to-resume Also guess who's back in court. No great hopes for it sticking, but it would be nice if he ended up in jail.
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Dec 4, 2023 17:39
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Vahakyla posted:Here’s a non-paywall. Appreciate it, thanks!
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Dec 4, 2023 17:45
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:I don't entirely disagree with you, but what's happening to the Palestinians right now is a fairly text book genocide. and eclipses anything the Palestinian groups have ever done or could do, no matter how awful. It's a genocide which scholars of the subject have noted as being atypical only because of just how brazen the Israeli political and military leadership has been in using genocidal rhetoric. People are going to get upset if they perceive someone to be justifying or denying it, even if calmly and politely. It is, but it's also something that Hamas worked to intentionally bring on. Their entire approach to this conflict has been to draw out an Israeli overreaction in order to try and sway international opinion. That's not to say that the situation wasn't already horrific, it was, but I think the topic of responsibility extends a bit further than to just Israel.
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Dec 4, 2023 18:04
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PurpleXVI posted:I think part of the issue with that approach as a general rule of thumb, is that sometimes you get someone who makes an incredibly ghoulish statement in a very "calm, rational and polite" voice, which might prompt someone people to get upset and go "what the gently caress? you're scum, get out, die, burn." which I consider perfectly understandable in some cases, and eat a probe/ban/etc., but the person who made the ghoulish statement gets a pass based on "well, they were just arguing politely." Yes, but, Decorum and Tone is more important than Content, this is the internet. /s I think that the reason why some people in this thread are getting mad at the mods is that, well, yeah? To most of us, it kinda looks like they're caring more about tone and decorum than anything else, and on a touchy subject like this, it's actually really loving infuriating to some people that it looks like that. When someone says "Actually by posting here you recognize ISrael's right to exist" and multiple people go "No we don't" in various ways of saying "No we don't" and everyone gets hit with probes for that, it feels a bit decorum-poisoned. Also to get back on topic more, I feel like it's a bit disingenuous to put all of the blame on starting this on Hamas- Israel was just looking for an excuse for genocide, and they would've gotten one eventually. It's also in the nature of the oppressed with no peaceful way out to turn towards violence when they've got no hope. Fivemarks fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Dec 4, 2023 |
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Dec 4, 2023 18:37
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Fivemarks posted:Yes, but, Decorum and Tone is more important than Content, this is the internet. /s Who is putting all the blame on anybody? All I said is that Hamas had a very deliberate hand in creating the crisis of today, which is a far cry from saying they're solely responsible. Like many organizations engaged in asymmetrical warfare, their intent appears to have been to draw out a reaction that they anticipate will improve conditions over the prior status quo. And by that metric, is seems that they are on the verge of being successful.
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Dec 4, 2023 18:44
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Grip it and rip it posted:Who is putting all the blame on anybody? All I said is that Hamas had a very deliberate hand in creating the crisis of today, which is a far cry from saying they're solely responsible. Like many organizations engaged in asymmetrical warfare, their intent appears to have been to draw out a reaction that they anticipate will improve conditions over the prior status quo. And by that metric, is seems that they are on the verge of being successful. Not saying you did, and I wasn't trying to imply that, and I'm sorry if that's how I came off. And yeah, if you're fighting an asymmetric conflict, ESPECIALLY against a genocidal or apartheid state, then causing the oppressor's reaction to be so out of proportion and cruel that the international community and the populace of the oppressor starts to have more sympathy for you is a pretty reasonable idea. It's like the Tet offensive. It didn't achieve its military goals in the slightest, but it caused public opinion to side with the Vietcong and NVA- and pictures of VC Assassins being executed certainly didn't help the perception of the war in the west.
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Dec 4, 2023 18:50
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Handsome Ralph posted:Can you post the article saying so? Not directing this at you in particular but I think the "game of telephone" stuff can be easily avoided if people just posted the article where they see particular claims or whatever. This is a repost of the original article I saw it on which listed the baby's name. It does make mention of young children, but is walking back all the bullshit they pushed to get popular support. https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-personnel-false-information-7-october-attack E- beaten
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Dec 4, 2023 19:00
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bulletsponge13 posted:This is a repost of the original article I saw it on which listed the baby's name. Archive PH link for the original Haaretz article. May need to translate it. It carries a somewhat different tone than the MEE piece it inspired, less "Israeli personnel gave false claims" and more "the documented truth is bad enough, why did y'all have to make poo poo up?"
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Dec 4, 2023 19:08
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Fivemarks posted:Yes, but, Decorum and Tone is more important than Content, this is the internet. /s The flipside of it though is that it's very easy for charged issues to become nothing but screaming into the void and purity fights. I think so far they've been doing a good job in a frankly thankless role - it's an incredibly hard needle to thread.
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Dec 4, 2023 19:37
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:The flipside of it though is that it's very easy for charged issues to become nothing but screaming into the void and purity fights. I think so far they've been doing a good job in a frankly thankless role - it's an incredibly hard needle to thread. I think that I'd appreciate a bit more nuance, but I understand that its asking a lot from the Mods. In other news https://x.com/HediViterbo/status/1731605573840392610?s=20 "This militarized state with a siege mentality sure seems a lot like Ancient Sparta, the Antebellum South, and Rhodesia" says guy who has read up on a lot of hyper-militarized states with a siege mentality.
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Dec 4, 2023 19:46
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PurpleXVI posted:I think part of the issue with that approach as a general rule of thumb, is that sometimes you get someone who makes an incredibly ghoulish statement in a very "calm, rational and polite" voice, which might prompt someone people to get upset and go "what the gently caress? you're scum, get out, die, burn." which I consider perfectly understandable in some cases, and eat a probe/ban/etc., but the person who made the ghoulish statement gets a pass based on "well, they were just arguing politely."
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Dec 4, 2023 20:14
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:Abusive language doesn't convince anybody and more likely has the opposite effect. People hear someone swearing a lot and think, well, if they have to swear so much then they haven't got everything straight. It's not about whether it's helpful as an argumentative strategy, but about whether it's understandable as a human response. Whether people should be asked to calm down because they're not helping themselves and the person intentionally goading them censured, or whether the person who gets upset should be censured. Though I would also disagree with the basic thesis, unless someone's argument is like 90% swearing by volume, I don't think I'd discount their argument out of hand if I felt like they had a reasonable reason to be upset. Someone who would go, "well, hm! this genocide clearly has you upset! I can't trust someone who's this irrational" is likely not someone who was going to end up on the anti-genocide side in the first place.
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Dec 4, 2023 20:19
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PurpleXVI posted:It's not about whether it's helpful as an argumentative strategy, but about whether it's understandable as a human response. Whether people should be asked to calm down because they're not helping themselves and the person intentionally goading them censured, or whether the person who gets upset should be censured. There is value in a "go away forever" to the genocide-lover and a cooldown s... Twelver for the other person. (For some reason sixxers make people a thousand times madder.) Though I feel like we probably shouldn't tolerate awful meltdowns in the opposite direction, even if they are coming from justifiably mad people. I mean beyond "gently caress YOU YOU AWFUL JERK".
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Dec 4, 2023 20:32
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Kchama posted:There is value in a "go away forever" to the genocide-lover and a cooldown s... Twelver for the other person. (For some reason sixxers make people a thousand times madder.) And I think, at least I'm speaking for me here, we don't want "No mod response." I want proportionality. Sure, if someone's responding to someone saying "Genocide is okay" or "Yes but you see this fully excuses settler colonialism" with "gently caress you and die" with no additional context, that's absolutely a probe. But when the same punishments are being held out to those trying to justify horrible stuff as the people justifiably angry about it, that doesn't feel proportional, it feels like the point here isn't right and wrong, its decorum and tone policing.
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Dec 4, 2023 20:47
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