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Tiny Timbs posted:They're part of the Global Dictatorship, like North Korea
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Dec 4, 2023 05:55
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Kei Technical posted:To clarify, I'm not a maoist or a communist, but dude was fairly influential. I'm not saying that framing is correct because Mao used it, but I am saying that adds to its notability. trying ideas out makes him a political experimentalist 
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Dec 4, 2023 05:57
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Kei Technical posted:To clarify, I'm not a maoist or a communist, but dude was fairly influential. I'm not saying that framing is correct because Mao used it, but I am saying that adds to its notability. Ayup, he certainly did try some things out Let's see... millions perishing from artificially contrived famine and half baked agricultural policies? Check Said famine of which was further exacerbated by forcing peasants to produce pig iron in horrifically unsafe backyard furnaces instead of tending to their farms? Check Collective purge of intellectuals and widespread destruction of important historical and cultural sites? Check That's not even scratching the surface. Some goon had a really interesting thread at one point talking about his wife's Chinese family. IIRC he had some interesting stories from his father in law about how the engineers for some mining project or other were purged for essentially knowing how to read, so his father in law was plucked from his farm and put in charge of facility maintenance. Or at least that was general gist if I recall correctly, it was just a really interesting thread that aligned with other stories I've read. Like Mao, I too am an ideas man after huffing gold spraypaint out of a paper bag
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Dec 4, 2023 06:06
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Grip it and rip it posted:I take all my english language queues from Mao Zedong... don't you? Its the common understanding today.
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Dec 4, 2023 06:08
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Tunicate posted:trying ideas out makes him a political experimentalist Thank you for being the best kind of correct. Catatron Prime posted:Ayup, he certainly did try some things out That was very bad, among many monstrous things he did! That would be a good rejoinder if I had said or implied that I approved of him at any point, but sometimes we mention ugly things in this war thread in the gun forum. For the record, Mao Zedong was bad but important. I hope you can restrain yourself from being a turd henceforth.
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Dec 4, 2023 06:47
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He did kill a bunch of landlords so its impossible to say if he's good or not
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Dec 4, 2023 06:51
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70% good 30% bad
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Dec 4, 2023 07:28
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A substantial amount of good and a monumentally overwhelming amount of bad
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Dec 4, 2023 08:19
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Those sparrows were cia spybirds and you loving know it!
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Dec 4, 2023 08:21
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 Birds aren't real.
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Dec 4, 2023 09:26
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Antigravitas posted:
Tell that to the nations that lost wars to the avian menace
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Dec 4, 2023 09:28
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Imagine losing a war to an imaginary threat.
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Dec 4, 2023 11:36
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the threat is very real the threat is the world https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4IYBrwdaRo
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Dec 4, 2023 11:45
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spankmeister posted:He did kill a bunch of landlords so its impossible to say if he's good or not Land of contrasts
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Dec 4, 2023 12:23
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Just because you're influential doesn't mean you should get credit for doing it, especially if you're one of the worst to have ever done it.
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Dec 4, 2023 12:23
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A.o.D. posted:Just because you're influential doesn't mean you should get credit for doing it, especially if you're one of the worst to have ever done it. 
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Dec 4, 2023 13:39
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Antigravitas posted:Imagine losing a war to an imaginary threat. Crazy, right?
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Dec 4, 2023 14:08
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itt goons don't know influences can be bad
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Dec 4, 2023 14:47
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Soul Dentist posted:itt goons don't know influences can be bad If the last decade has taught us anything, it's that most influencers are bad.
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Dec 4, 2023 14:52
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lightpole posted:They are targeting immigrants with money and citizenship for military service. Russia is still a first world country.
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Dec 4, 2023 15:01
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A.o.D. posted:Just because you're influential doesn't mean you should get credit for doing it, especially if you're one of the worst to have ever done it. Ok grandpa, let's get you back to the home
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Dec 4, 2023 15:28
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spankmeister posted:He did kill a bunch of landlords so its impossible to say if he's good or not This unfortunately seems to be the story of almost every post monarchical revolutionary society beginning with the French Revolution. It always starts with a comfortable class of aristocrats and autocrats who abuse their powers, concentrate all the nation's land and wealth into their hands and carving out special privileges for themselves that make them exempt from the laws of the land. Then after a period of revolution, centrists and right adjacent "democratic" reformers never go far enough for the people who helped them overthrow the previous government and more radical factions launch a second wave to deliver on land reform promises. Like Lenin ripped off a lot of promises and policies of the SRs when it suited him politically to get the Bolsheviks in power. Likewise I'm sure Mao's land reform was a nice carrot to the stick of cultural revolution and further autocracy. It turns out centrists being ineffectual at meeting the needs of the people they rule over often get brutally overthrown by radicals later for their arrogance. That might be a lesson for today's western governments and how history seems to be repeating itself as land once again starts concentrating into the hands of a politically and legally unaccountable landed elite.
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Dec 4, 2023 15:29
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The English revolution predates the French one, but instead of killing off landlords, they just made a bunch of new ones in Ireland.  I guess they got rid of one landlord.
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Dec 4, 2023 16:02
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Talking to people in the UK about land use is like talking to people in the US about healthcare reform: a good way to quickly go insane from the strawman arguments and wrong assumptions.
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Dec 4, 2023 16:13
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Kraftwerk posted:Likewise I'm sure Mao's land reform was a nice carrot to the stick of cultural revolution and further autocracy. It turns out centrists being ineffectual at meeting the needs of the people they rule over often get brutally overthrown by radicals later for their arrogance. That's not really what happened. In some ways, it's the exact opposite. Mao first did land reform (and a lot of other successful reform policies) during and in the immediate aftermath of the civil war, basically ending by 1950. These successful reforms all share the feature that they were done by a government that was not yet very powerful and could not afford much bureaucracy, so everything was done very sensitively to local conditions, was extraordinarily popular, but a lot more moderate than what the radicals wanted. But after the mid-50's, the new class of educated communist bureaucrats had graduated (generally, absolute firebrand communist true believers), and the CCP now had the ability to do things like enforce policies. The CCP was divided between centrist "this incrementalism seems to be working just fine, let's just keep at it" position, and the radicals who wanted to completely overhaul society based on their fever dreams. The radicals somewhat got their way in the first 5-year plan ('53-'57), and this was hailed as a great success in the conference that decided the second plan, so that time they got all the power. The slogan was: "Go all out, aim high, and build socialism with greater, faster, better, and more economical results." These reforms were enacted by zealous communist functionaries, against open opposition from the general population. Like, in the great leap forward, people didn't just die from starvation, something like 7% of the casualties were straight up murdered by the red guard who were enforcing the policies the peasants knew would kill them, usually in public torture sessions. As the great leap forward failed, the moderates took over the party but couldn't afford to completely oust Mao, so they pushed him into a supposedly ceremonial position with no real power. As they found out a decade later, this was a terrible idea, as Mao with no actual power or responsibility but a good platform to speak from managed to raise a generation of student firebrands loyal to only him, resulting in the cultural revolution. In general, though, I'd oppose the "his results were so terrible that he doesn't count" strain of though here. Mao didn't rise in power because of a fluke. He had a lot of novel military and political thought that was extraordinarily successful in the 30's and 40's. It's just that when all the constraints on him went away, the end result was very different. So what I'm trying to say is that he was the George Lucas of political though -- as part of a creative team, he was extraordinary. When he just got to dictate everything by his whims -- well, he was extraordinary in a very different sense.
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Dec 4, 2023 16:20
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Tuna-Fish posted:In general, though, I'd oppose the "his results were so terrible that he doesn't count" strain of though here. Mao didn't rise in power because of a fluke. He had a lot of novel military and political thought that was extraordinarily successful in the 30's and 40's. It's just that when all the constraints on him went away, the end result was very different. So what I'm trying to say is that he was the George Lucas of political though -- as part of a creative team, he was extraordinary. When he just got to dictate everything by his whims -- well, he was extraordinary in a very different sense. Yeah, as I remember, a lot of Mao's statements and thoughts make a good bit of sense and seem pretty incisive. Also thank you for the effortpost.
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Dec 4, 2023 16:25
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PurpleXVI posted:Also thank you for the effortpost.
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Dec 4, 2023 16:43
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Tuna-Fish posted:That's not really what happened. In some ways, it's the exact opposite. Yeah that was amazing. I definitely learned a lot here. My mind went straight for the George Lucas analogy at the same time as my eyes started picking up the text where you said the same thing.
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Dec 4, 2023 17:44
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psydude posted:Talking to people
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Dec 4, 2023 17:47
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Cannon_Fodder posted:The English revolution predates the French one, but instead of killing off landlords, they just made a bunch of new ones in Ireland. You mean the Glorious Revolution? That's just a Dutch invasion with great marketing.
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Dec 4, 2023 19:00
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Tuna-Fish posted:as part of a creative team, he was extraordinary. When he just got to dictate everything by his whims -- well, he was extraordinary in a very different sense. So the great leap forward was Phantom Menace? Also does that make Xi the JJ star wars movies?
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Dec 4, 2023 19:19
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CainFortea posted:So the great leap forward was Phantom Menace? How does the massacre of the expanded universe fit in this timeline?
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Dec 4, 2023 19:24
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Oscar Wilde Bunch posted:How does the massacre of the expanded universe fit in this timeline? Hong Kong. The PRC took a good thing that everyone liked and ruined it.
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Dec 4, 2023 19:25
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Hong Kongs importance has changed for them. Initially it was one of the largest ports and an entry and exit from China. Now everything goes out of Shenzhen instead and the mainland can produce everything. It only matters at this point for its stockmarket since its one of the few ways to get exposure to China. I dont really expect that to hold up for an extended period either. Rule of law and its importance for contracts has been shaky, I'm not sure that leaving it alone would guarantee HKs place. The PRC hasn't helped it but its continued dominance as an economic center was probably impossible to sustain.
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Dec 4, 2023 19:42
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Tuna-Fish posted:That's not really what happened. In some ways, it's the exact opposite. who would mao have been in harry potter?
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Dec 4, 2023 21:43
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Mao would have been Harry Potter
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Dec 4, 2023 22:15
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Bell_ posted:I thought the definition of second world was made with them in mind. How have they changed since the early nineties? They stopped being communist. spankmeister posted:You mean the Glorious Revolution? That's just a Dutch invasion with great marketing. Pretty sure they meant the English Civil War (you're not wrong though)
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Dec 4, 2023 23:08
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EasilyConfused posted:
been a while since i listened to give 'em enough rope
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Dec 4, 2023 23:22
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Kraftwerk posted:Like Lenin ripped off a lot of promises and policies of the SRs when it suited him politically to get the Bolsheviks in power. Likewise I'm sure Mao's land reform was a nice carrot to the stick of cultural revolution and further autocracy. It turns out centrists being ineffectual at meeting the needs of the people they rule over often get brutally overthrown by radicals later for their arrogance. Lenin was also ineffective and only survived the civil war because the Whites were turbo, mega, un-be-loving-lievably incompetent. Also, Fanny Kaplan couldn't shoot straight Everyone thinks they can fix Russia until they get in power, then they take one look at things, say "Holy poo poo, this place is fffffucked" and jump straight into political-survival-mode. Starting with Pyotr Stolypin, if not earlier. Stolypin decided that surviving was optional
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Dec 5, 2023 00:19
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The state would probably be better off dissolved. East of the Urals has practically been "here there be dragons" on the map for hundreds of years and would be better off managing their own resources instead of having them stolen by Moscow
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Dec 5, 2023 00:36
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