(Thread IKs:
dead gay comedy forums)
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The Voice of Labor posted:I don't think racism is the tipping component. there's no jewish conspiracy behind a flat earth, just a failing of reasoning or inadequate or contested evidence. you are extremely wrong here, because not only is flat earthism super antisemitic already but in recent years it's lost tons of traction precisely because huge chunks of its fanbase have migrated to qanon. this stuff always ends up being about the illuminati trying to suppress white birthrates, and at the absolute best you'll get people who don't seem to mind who they're rubbing shoulders with
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Dec 4, 2023 02:25
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| # ? May 20, 2024 22:09 |
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I'll bite. explain to me please the ideological, epistemological or pornological basis for flat earthism being racist. having a large crossover of racist adherents isn't proof that's the driving cause
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Dec 4, 2023 06:45
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it doesn't have to have a racist basis, when you're at a 12 person table with 11 nazis then etc etc
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Dec 4, 2023 06:53
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ferrinus' assertion I'm challenging is that what separates conspiracy from truth is racism. so yeah actually, basis is required, coincidence isn't enough
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Dec 4, 2023 06:59
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nah
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Dec 4, 2023 07:05
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The Voice of Labor posted:I'll bite. explain to me please the ideological, epistemological or pornological basis for flat earthism being racist. having a large crossover of racist adherents isn't proof that's the driving cause the flat earth conspiracy theory isn't merely that the earth is flat, it's that a shadowy cabal is conspiring to HIDE from you that the earth is flat. who is doing that, and why? it always turns out to be bloodsucking lizardmen or whatever. you might as well sputter in disbelief at someone telling you that pizzagate or anti-vax sentiment is racist
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Dec 4, 2023 07:12
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it's liberal moralism imposing massive neurotic stress by making people individualizing on themselves structural/historical problems, which breaks out into the paranoiac valves Like, it's paranoiac behavior, a psychoanalytical symptom, not actual psychosis, just to be clear. Thinking the problems of the world (and by derivation your life) are because the earth is flat is a much better symptom in terms of being functional than internalizing into abhorrent incapacitating angst/guilt (because barring something that makes them break out that logic, they would rather blame themselves than seeing the world differently). The political comes shortly afterwards as fascism is a siren's song to them. the loving devious thing is that people who get a few steps before that stage are in the cusp of breaking into class consciousness because their ideological foundation has weakened a lot, but the odds are far greater to fall into the brown ocean of fascist shitposting, get fed some bullshit that readily "explains" everything and they deflect into reaction. Welp, time to start class consciousness work from zero
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Dec 4, 2023 07:16
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remembering when the FLATTEN guy got banned, really makes you wonder...
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Dec 4, 2023 07:17
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Ferrinus posted:the flat earth conspiracy theory isn't merely that the earth is flat, it's that a shadowy cabal is conspiring to HIDE from you that the earth is flat. who is doing that, and why? it always turns out to be bloodsucking lizardmen or whatever. you might as well sputter in disbelief at someone telling you that pizzagate or anti-vax sentiment is racist there's a shadowy cabal conspiring to HIDE from me and you that a lot of the value we produce ends up in other people's pockets. that same cabal is conspiring to hide that palestinians are human beings. also what's so racist about thinking democrats are demons who rape and eat children? that it excludes republican luminaries from the fun? anti-mask people are universally weird, but pharmaceutical companies are universally terrible, there too you gotta explain the racist basis. so far the only conspiracy theory that has an obvious racial component is the perfidiousness of capital which requires ethnic cleansing for its land grabs
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Dec 4, 2023 07:44
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The Voice of Labor posted:there's a shadowy cabal conspiring to HIDE from me and you that a lot of the value we produce ends up in other people's pockets. that same cabal is conspiring to hide that palestinians are human beings. also what's so racist about thinking democrats are demons who rape and eat children? that it excludes republican luminaries from the fun? anti-mask people are universally weird, but pharmaceutical companies are universally terrible, there too you gotta explain the racist basis. no, that stuff isn't being hidden from you. you can go to https://www.marxists.org right now and learn all you want about the value form, that's stuff even taught in prestigious universities. you just don't live in a social or economic universe that rewards you for knowing it and especially not for acting on it. liberal propaganda doesn't work by tricking you such that you just need to be told the correct facts to set you straight, it works by giving you material incentives to behave in a certain way and cultural incentives to explain that behavior post-hoc pizzagate is just about jews. anti-vax is more immediately ableist, but it posits that it's the jews who WANT your child to get autism. refusing to wear a mask at walgreens is how you signal to your fellows that you, too, want black people to sicken and die. and so on
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Dec 4, 2023 09:19
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Homeless Friend posted:remembering when the FLATTEN guy got banned, really makes you wonder... I thought that post was funny.
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Dec 4, 2023 12:04
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Ferrinus posted:pizzagate is just about jews. anti-vax is more immediately ableist, but it posits that it's the jews who WANT your child to get autism. refusing to wear a mask at walgreens is how you signal to your fellows that you, too, want black people to sicken and die. and so on
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Dec 4, 2023 16:08
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mawarannahr posted:learning for the first time that Bill Gates, Anthony Fauci, and Klaus Schwab are Jewish (?) it doesn't actually matter if they are, it's like how david icke protests vociferously that he's only concerned with actual reptoids. antisemitism isn't the same as judeophobia, and you can tell because at this very moment there are jews posting about how all of israel's bad press is caused by george soros's dark machinations Ferrinus has issued a correction as of 16:46 on Dec 4, 2023 |
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Dec 4, 2023 16:27
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aids
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Dec 4, 2023 17:04
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The Voice of Labor posted:I'll bite. explain to me please the ideological, epistemological or pornological basis for flat earthism being racist. having a large crossover of racist adherents isn't proof that's the driving cause its because the center of the flat earth ("north pole") houses the holy grail and the jews are keeping it from us you stupid BITCH
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Dec 4, 2023 17:18
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Ferrinus posted:no, that stuff isn't being hidden from you. you can go to https://www.marxists.org right now and learn all you want about the value form, that's stuff even taught in prestigious universities. you just don't live in a social or economic universe that rewards you for knowing it and especially not for acting on it. liberal propaganda doesn't work by tricking you such that you just need to be told the correct facts to set you straight, it works by giving you material incentives to behave in a certain way and cultural incentives to explain that behavior post-hoc an internet presence and discussion in "prestigious universities" are really weak criteria for legitimacy. qanon and flat earth people and antimask people and everyone else has a website. I'm sure they're all discussed in academic settings. what material or cultural disincentives are there for adherence to qanon or whatever? or what incentive are you seeing for people to not be into thinking the world is flat? you're having problems providing essential definitions, because a dialectic approach doesn't exclude metaphysical entities but, in fact, requires them to serve as the poles of thesis and antithesis. here's an example: proletariat has a fixed meaning. no matter how the world changes, or where in time and space you are, if you find someone exchanging their labor for wages, you've found a proletariat. that's not a thing that admits to a changing character or essence. the state, however, is subject to dialectical analysis. it begins as a bourgeoisie state, a state that exists to promote bourgeoisie interests. the state comes into contact with the reality that people won't allow themselves to be exploited, it develops an increasingly proletariat character until it eventually faces the contradiction that a majority doesn't need a state in addition to itself to protect a majority interest. throughout all of this, the definition, what constitutes proletariat, hasn't changed and won't change afterwards, but the definition and nature of the state does
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Dec 4, 2023 18:31
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shut the gently caress up tvol
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Dec 4, 2023 18:40
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woke operator posted:shut the gently caress up tvol gl with trying this on marxists, idiot
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Dec 4, 2023 19:21
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The Voice of Labor posted:an internet presence and discussion in "prestigious universities" are really weak criteria for legitimacy. qanon and flat earth people and antimask people and everyone else has a website. I'm sure they're all discussed in academic settings. one post ago you said that there was a shadowy cabal conspiring to HIDE from you that wage workers generate value in excess of their pay etc. suddenly you're switching gears to talk about "legitimacy" or something instead. so it looks like you agree with me! there is in fact no conspiracy monopolizing arcane knowledge, just a social universe that rewards anticommunism and punishes communism. qanon and its precocious little brother flat earthism are in fact in accordance with the basic premises of this social universe, namely that there are essentially smart/worthy/hardworking/good people and essentially dumb/unworthy/lazy/evil people and the former ought to be on top of the latter and if they're not it's due to underhanded trickery or betrayal. this is the same racial ideology that justifies e.g. homelessness you're using the words "character" and "essence" interchangeably but they have very different meanings. you can play, adopt, or lose a character, but not your essence. "proletarian" is a post-hoc label applied to the social context surrounding the worker, whose particulars are constantly changing due to the forces of history and exerting force on history in turn. if you think that there's some sort of eternal proletarian essence merely struggling to assert itself through all of history you're going to trick yourself into thinking that we have to be allowed to say slurs or else men in hard hats won't invite us to poker night Ferrinus has issued a correction as of 20:29 on Dec 4, 2023 |
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Dec 4, 2023 20:27
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Brain Candy posted:gl with trying this on marxists, idiot im the only marxist here
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Dec 4, 2023 20:50
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Guess who said he wasn't a Marxist?
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Dec 4, 2023 20:57
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david graeber 
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Dec 4, 2023 21:15
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Yeah, and look where that got him
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Dec 4, 2023 21:27
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woke operator posted:im the only marxist here being a marxist is easy, you just have to believe that good things can happen to people when theyre nice to each other and share
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Dec 4, 2023 22:02
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Orange Devil posted:Guess who said he wasn't a Marxist? given some peculiar discussions that a few members of the crowd after him get to have to this day can you blame him, really
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Dec 4, 2023 22:12
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of course being a furious shitposter with a superhuman drive and intellectual endurance was going to inspire a lot of people but, you know
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Dec 4, 2023 22:13
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Ferrinus posted:
there is and there has been. not throughout all of history, but throughout its capitalist epoch. do you sell your labor for wages or do you live on the labor of others? there's a little bit of gray area for small business tyrants and retirees and students and other children but that's what it comes down to. you can ignore the law of the excluded middle, but not when you're the one giving the definition of what the thing is
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Dec 4, 2023 22:59
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So we got Ukraine/Russia, whatever is going on in Africa (I'll admit I've not been following closely there but I recall several nations had action), Israel/Palestine, and now possibly Venezuela/Guyana. Is there anywhere else that could go off? Besides Taiwan/China (because unless the Taiwanese government does something like officially declare independence I think Xi et al are waiting for things to continue to decay for the US to better achieve diplomatic victory)? Assuming these ultimately either result in the relevant lands either being unavailable for Western exploitation/rendered dramatically less useful for such, what does that mean for North America and Europe?* Asking here instead of the ww3 thread since it feels like I might get a better idea of where to ask/a more Marxist explanation here. If this isn't the place I'll go wherever I should instead. Edit:Seems like even if they can spin post hoc justifications and such from the losses it still results in a real loss of resources that would only further complicate maintaining the remaining neocolonial holdings, and the lack of immediate real panic among the capitalist class due to neocolonialism distancing the idea of losing those holdings and the use of the losses to firm up control at home only lead to them being unable to discipline themselves like the Russian Bourgeoisie have. If they don't shape up, won't losing the excess that covered bread and circuses combine with what is almost certainly a security apparatus just as decrepit as that shown in recent conflicts resulting in them struggling to control what could become in short order rebellious sentiment in the heartlands of the US/EU? Fascist or otherwise. *:That is, the loose collection of individuals and organisations controlling them? thechosenone has issued a correction as of 04:48 on Dec 5, 2023 |
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Dec 5, 2023 04:40
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in a western context, the international bourgeoisie won't panic because the nature of capital is to exploit every available market until it begins eating itself when no new penetration is possible. in the imperial epoch that amounts to intensifying domestic exploitation, which you can already see happening in real time. it's only until the international bourgeoisie have no other recourse than to also pursue those avenues that the panic will set in, but the domestic/national bourgeoisie of western states will have already long since gotten to that point and the nature of capital being what it is, will have already also by that point been left with no choice but to be swallowed up by the higher tiers of the international bourgeoisie with a lot more capital to play with. winner take all system cuts the same way no matter how high up on the ladder you find yourself. basically, barring some major sea change in capitalism on par with Lenin's analysis, when you see major domestic corporations be swallowed up--especially and particularly in the financial arena--by global ones, that's about when capital is about to turn thoroughly and outwardly parasitic in a manner that isn't just limited to mere commodification. It's why I started to always view the cyberpunk dystopia in the popular characterization circa the 1980s as a fiction once I understood a bit more than a neophyte marxist about how things actually tend to pan out. this is particularly obvious when you now have a good set of 30+ years to observe how the trends post-USSR worked out for the capitalist class with no shortage of examples of how well capital handles an era of non-competitive oppositional ideologies. edits: above for clarity, but also want to add--you can see recent acquisitions such as microsoft acquiring several companies valued in multi-billions as an example, but if you can take that example and twist it to banking, that's essentially what's going to herald the last throes. international financialization being so critically important to contemporary imperialism, and all. so essentially, Xi and the other communist nations leaders just need to stay out of the active line of fire long enough for that to happen. the fact that the USSR believed this to be true also and ended up being overthrown instead doesn't actually bear weight here, either. for many reasons. HiroProtagonist has issued a correction as of 05:13 on Dec 5, 2023 |
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Dec 5, 2023 05:03
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what is the international bourgeoisie? a major sea change in global capitalism did happen after Lenin, by 1949 two of the largest countries in the world were communist and the "territorial division of the whole world among the biggest capitalist powers" was over. the imperialist powers and their respective monopolies reached a compromise to defeat socialism and attempt to subdue the countries emerging out of colonialism. the imperialist bloc came into opposition to the socialist bloc, and was united under the leadership of US. Bretton Woods laid down the rules for inter-imperialist competition going forward. the Suez Crisis showed that France and the UK would be junior partners to the US, and NATO structures helped make that permanent. the US ruling class thought it ended history with the collapse of the USSR, but it turns out they got outplayed by the Communist Party of China in the long game. they also made mistakes by refusing to let Russia into the imperialist bloc and by focusing for decades on wars in west asia they couldn't win. Atrocious Joe has issued a correction as of 06:35 on Dec 5, 2023 |
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Dec 5, 2023 06:32
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thechosenone posted:So we got Ukraine/Russia, whatever is going on in Africa (I'll admit I've not been following closely there but I recall several nations had action), Israel/Palestine, and now possibly Venezuela/Guyana. Is there anywhere else that could go off? Besides Taiwan/China (because unless the Taiwanese government does something like officially declare independence I think Xi et al are waiting for things to continue to decay for the US to better achieve diplomatic victory)? it means more inflation, basically. the bretton woods system aka neoliberalism atrocious joe mentioned created an integrated world system predicated on the rest of the world providing cheap labor and cheap raw materials for the west’s consumption. the us in particular replaced its formidable industrial economy with a speculative finance economy on the assumption that oil and natural resources would remain cheap forever. capitalism outsourced its productive capacity to the chinese commies which will go down in history as the greatest L of all time. now china, through the belt and road, provides an alternative economic development model to the rest of the world. instead of raw resource extraction, china helps the rest of the world develop its own productive forces. more domestic demand around the world raises commodity prices, meaning the free ride is over for the west. ukraine, africa, and venezuela are all symptoms of that process. in those places, the empire has lost political control, lost economic control, and is in the process of losing military control. israel is the same process, but the core itself breaking up rather the periphery.
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Dec 5, 2023 07:13
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Is there a good updated article read on Venezuela rn please? And 'africa' though I'm guessing there's a shitload since it's a huge place?
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Dec 5, 2023 08:27
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Atrocious Joe posted:what is the international bourgeoisie? Financialized capital. What imperialism is based on.
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Dec 5, 2023 08:49
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Capital hegemony extends beyond borders and depends on finding new markets to exploit
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Dec 5, 2023 08:50
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HiroProtagonist posted:Financialized capital. What imperialism is based on. is there a good simple explanation of financialized capital for dummies like me?
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Dec 5, 2023 10:30
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Hefty Leftist posted:is there a good simple explanation of financialized capital for dummies like me? heres how i understand it: "capital" is money that makes u more money right? how does it work? basically by applying human labor you can add value to your inputs and sell the output for more money than you put in and then you start to abstract away from this so you get to a system where you can just invest money and receive a money return (interest) and you don’t need to worry about managing all that labor and production crap. good deal. and then you start to take interest as a given in all your calculations and don’t consider that eventually someone has to be making something at the bottom of the pyramid. and over time the money return you can get from actually investing in the making of things starts to drop, while the interest rate you take as a given doesn’t drop as fast due to math tricks and government policies and rent extraction. at a certain point, you cross over a line where investing in the actual making of things earns you “less” than investing in the math tricks and at that point: industrial economy goes to neoliberalism, gets pumped with massive shot of many financial instruments, doesn’t feel good and changes – FINANCIAL CAPITALISM. If you can earn a higher return by investing in math and extracting rent and you don’t have to worry about actually making stuff, then you can also strip the copper out of the walls (you don’t need it anymore, your not making stuff) and sell the copper and earn even more money this financial quarter
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Dec 5, 2023 11:12
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thechosenone posted:So we got Ukraine/Russia, whatever is going on in Africa (I'll admit I've not been following closely there but I recall several nations had action), Israel/Palestine, and now possibly Venezuela/Guyana. Is there anywhere else that could go off? Besides Taiwan/China (because unless the Taiwanese government does something like officially declare independence I think Xi et al are waiting for things to continue to decay for the US to better achieve diplomatic victory)? Kosovo and Serbia is still brewing and poo poo's gone down between Azerbaijan and Armenia. In Africa the civil war in Ethiopia appears to only be escalating and could spread to multiple neighbouring countries, and Sudan has an escalating conflict in Darfur. Orange Devil has issued a correction as of 11:26 on Dec 5, 2023 |
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Dec 5, 2023 11:23
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i read a marx website once and it told me that money = dicks and now im rich
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Dec 5, 2023 11:30
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Taking in a lot of dick is its own kind of wealth.
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Dec 5, 2023 11:44
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fart simpson posted:heres how i understand it: what could possibly go wrong? 
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Dec 5, 2023 11:47
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