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Flopsy posted:I don't think any of the violance is justified because both countries are at the mercy of their lovely governments but I especially hate it when war crimes are played down to make the other side look less dogshit. Palestinian's dont have a country, they have an open air prison that is occupied by a neighboring state that wants to kill them all. Palestinians have a right to fight back against that.Israel intentionally created the conditions that led to October 7. There is no both sides are wrong, only Israel.
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Dec 5, 2023 08:28
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I said come in! posted:Palestinian's dont have a country, they have an open air prison that is occupied by a neighboring state that wants to kill them all. Palestinians have a right to fight back against that.Israel intentionally created the conditions that led to October 7. There is no both sides are wrong, only Israel. I don't believe in ethnic cleansing or systematic rape no matter who you think deserves it.
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Dec 5, 2023 08:50
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I said come in! posted:Palestinian's dont have a country, they have an open air prison that is occupied by a neighboring state that wants to kill them all. Palestinians have a right to fight back against that.Israel intentionally created the conditions that led to October 7. There is no both sides are wrong, only Israel. You should probably stop conflating Palestinians and Hamas.
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Dec 5, 2023 09:28
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I said come in! posted:Palestinian's dont have a country, they have an open air prison that is occupied by a neighboring state that wants to kill them all. Palestinians have a right to fight back against that.Israel intentionally created the conditions that led to October 7. There is no both sides are wrong, only Israel. This is an extreme position that reeks as dogmatic, one that will be tolerated (and it will) because most people's intuitive moral outrage and effervescence point in one direction, mostly along neo-Marxist oppressor-oppressed dichotomic lines. You have just done us the courtesy of making your unthinking bias explicit.
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Dec 5, 2023 09:33
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Flopsy posted:“The vice chair of the UN Legal Committee… has also said that Israel has submitted to the UN unequivocal evidence of rape incidents, including gang rape and traces of semen found in bodies of young Israeli women who were murdered.” From what I could gather, this is in reference to Israeli diplomat Sarah Weiss Maudi, who has served as one of the Vice Chairs of the 75th assembly, but is not currently serving as the Vice Chair, of the 78th that role is currently being occupied by delegates from Romania, Venezuela, and Italy. https://www.un.org/en/ga/sixth/78/bureau.shtml For the record I believe that it's likely soldiers from Gaza committed war crimes, including rape, because soldiers do that during war (does not excuse, or exempt them from justice), but these sort of parlor games (not accusing you, the Michael Weiss tweet deliberately ommitted this) are going to make people inherently suspicious. Entirely possible that Israel did submit unequivocal evidence to the UN, but it's not the UN currently saying that.
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Dec 5, 2023 09:33
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Flopsy posted:“The vice chair of the UN Legal Committee… has also said that Israel has submitted to the UN unequivocal evidence of rape incidents, including gang rape and traces of semen found in bodies of young Israeli women who were murdered.” Where is that quote from? All I can find is this Haaretz article that says something slightly different - "Israeli diplomat Sarah Weiss Maudi, who has served as the vice chair of the UN Legal Committee, has also said that Israel has submitted to the UN unequivocal evidence of rape incidents, including gang rape and traces of semen found in bodies of young Israeli women who were murdered."
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Dec 5, 2023 09:33
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Fister Roboto posted:If it's true, and I don't doubt that it is, then what? What conclusions should we draw from it? What actions should we believe are justified because of it? https://www.axios.com/2023/12/04/hamas-israeli-women-hostages-release I don't think this justifies any of Israel's crimes, but it is a reminder that Hamas is no less evil - only less powerful.
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Dec 5, 2023 09:39
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Or it's because Israel didn't extend the ceasefire in exchange for further hostage releases? What a ridiculous leap.
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Dec 5, 2023 09:47
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Irony Be My Shield posted:The reason this is coming up now is because there are 18 young women being held in Gaza that Hamas refused to release during the ceasefire. The US is alleging that's because Hamas doesn't want them to talk about how they've been treated. "Miller did not provide any evidence to back up his claim" doesn't inspire a lot of confidence but it's hardly impossible that's the reason even if other hostages report being treated (relatively) well. e: This other Axios article says the Hamas explanation is that a number of the hostages they won't release are IDF soldiers and Israel refused any alternative arrangement. According to this WSJ article Hamas is also claiming they aren't holding any civilian women or children, which if true then would mean those hostages are being held by other factions if they are indeed still hostages - they're saying that at least three of the people on the list (Shiri Bibas and her two sons) are dead. 2e: " “We know that whatever Sinwar determines, happens,” said the official about Yahya Sinwar, Hamas’s leader in Gaza. “If he wants to take [the hostages] from the hands of the other factions and make sure the agreement is implemented fully, it isn’t a big problem for him.” " I guess however much you agree with this quote determines how much you believe Hamas is responsible for those hostages not being released TGLT fucked around with this message at 10:02 on Dec 5, 2023 |
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Dec 5, 2023 09:49
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TGLT posted:"Miller did not provide any evidence to back up his claim" doesn't inspire a lot of confidence but it's hardly impossible that's the reason even if other hostages report being treated (relatively) well. e: This other Axios article says the Hamas explanation is that a number of the hostages they won't release are IDF soldiers and Israel refused any alternative arrangement. According to this WSJ article Hamas is also claiming they aren't holding any civilian women or children, which if true then would mean those hostages are being held by other factions if they are indeed still hostages - they're saying that at least three of the people on the list (Shiri Bibas and her two sons) are dead. e: I don't think Hamas deserves the benefit of the doubt given their conduct during October 7th. They should have released all the female hostages. Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 10:21 on Dec 5, 2023 |
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Dec 5, 2023 10:15
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Thanks for finding these sources. Seems like Hamas has provided several contradictory excuses and has not allowed anyone in to inspect the conditions for the hostages concerned. They're not contradictory I don't think. They're saying they won't release IDF soldiers ("[Osama Hamdan] said that the women Israel proposed to be released included female IDF soldiers" from Axios), the civilians that are on the list are not being held by Hamas but by other factions and they're claiming to have trouble securing their release ("Hamas has told Egyptian negotiators that some of the women named on a list compiled by Israeli officials were held by other groups that are resisting pressure to hand them over" from WSJ), and that they have made other offers that Israel rejected ("Hamas in a statement said it had offered to release elderly men and two Israeli hostages, as well as the bodies of hostages it said were killed during Israeli airstrikes in Gaza" from Axios) How true each bit of that is I obviously can't verify but that's not a contradictory explanation. e: If true that Hamas is having trouble getting hostages released you could still argue that their not being released is because the factions that did hold them abused them. If this bit from the WSJ article is true - "Officials said Israeli-Argentinian citizen Shiri Bibas and her two sons, Ariel, 4, and Kfir, 10 months, were kidnapped by Hamas and later handed over to another faction" - then certainly Hamas would still have some culpability in the treatment of any person they handed over like that, although Hamas has alleged that those three specifically were killed in an Israeli air strike - which is also certainly plausible. They say they've offered to return their bodies which I guess read into that how you will with regards to any evidence of abuse. TGLT fucked around with this message at 10:28 on Dec 5, 2023 |
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Dec 5, 2023 10:21
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I said come in! posted:There is no both sides are wrong, only Israel. Nah It does sure seem that Isreal is using this as an excuse to do what they've wanted to. Removal of all Palestinian people.
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Dec 5, 2023 10:23
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Irony Be My Shield posted:The reason this is coming up now is because there are 18 young women being held in Gaza that Hamas refused to release during the ceasefire. The US is alleging that's because Hamas doesn't want them to talk about how they've been treated. Rape is always a difficult subject to talk about. But I think this post is emblematic for the issues the subject presents. There have been some, nearly all indirect, testimonies that rapes took place. There have also been issues with *some* discussion that has been presented as testimony, which includes: 1) People interpreting imagery to suggest women have been raped - this includes photos of bloody jogging pants, women whose clothes have come off and a woman in the back of a truck not fully dressed. The images don't support these conclusions but are interpreted as a set to indicate widespread acts of rape. 2) Some testimony sounds too much like various unsupported and debunked claims (gang-rapes that involve cutting off the victim's breasts and then shooting them etc).That's not to say impossible but that such claims need to be read in the same environment as "beheaded babies" and "babies on a clothes line" 3) The extrapolation from such testimony - the few testimonies available have been developed into a narrative that suggests systematic rape employed as a deliberate and widespread tool of terror on the day. Maybe that's a correct reading but doesn't seem to me to be supported by any evidence. 4) All of the above is presented without doubt and used to justify the continued destruction of Gaza and murder of its populace whilst simultaneously shifting headlines. I don't believe victims are responsible for any of this but I think it would be absolutely naive to look at Israel's PR efforts over the last two months and not think that it is trying to manipulate coverage. The best work on the issue to date is this PHR report which to date really only works on the basis of what's publicly available and doesn't attempt to meet any legal threshold of evidentiary analysis. A cursory read of the report should put paid to the narrative that there's evidence this was systemic, planned or mandated: https://www.phr.org.il/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/5771_Sexual_Violence_paper_Eng-final.pdf Why does this matter? Hamas murdered lots of people on the day, so why get caught up arguing about rape if it's just going to look like minimisation? A few reasons: 1) As above, it's being used justify genocide 2) It's being used to shift coverage of genocide 3) The truth matters and it would be good for our journalists to be doing more to investigate these issues Ultimately, this needs to be investigated properly and independently.
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Dec 5, 2023 10:42
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Irony Be My Shield posted:They should have released all the female hostages. Why? What would releasing more hostages after the ceasefire wasn't extended achieve? If Israel wanted them back there was a far better way to achieve that than continuing the war.
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Dec 5, 2023 11:06
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Why? What would releasing more hostages after the ceasefire wasn't extended achieve? If Israel wanted them back there was a far better way to achieve that than continuing the war. Palestinians must be upright and moral heroes in every sense in addition to being perfect victims before the world will consider them human. "WELL IF THEY DID THING THEN THEY COULDN'T BE CRITICIZED FOR NOT DOING THING!" I'm sure they'll take pleasure in the knowledge they secured the moral high ground while their families and neighbors are being bombed to dust around them.
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Dec 5, 2023 11:38
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Flopsy posted:Hey look at this massive pile of human poo poo masquerading as a feminist. It appears that Batya Ungar-Sargon is saying that "Believe all women" requires us to uncritically accept "confessions" that have been forced from Palestinian captives by Israeli interrogators, who are incidentally quite notorious for their use of torture. I don't think it's especially unreasonable for Briahna Joy-Gray to push back on that characterization and remind us all that "believe women" means "believe women" rather than "believe Israeli military interrogators who've gotten male captives to say something for the camera". After all, despite what some dude on Twitter may have said while mashing that retweet button, Joy-Gray is not saying that Hamas committed no rapes on Oct 7. Rather, she's specifically countering Ungar-Sargon's attempt to present feminist pro-victim rhetoric as simultaneously unreasonable and hypocritical.
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Dec 5, 2023 12:04
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She's a loving moron and isn't worth listening to. A stopped clock and all.
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Dec 5, 2023 12:09
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https://x.com/seriations/status/1731859470295126197?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q Interesting note on some of the propaganda machine around 7/20 (per thread martial law, I'm posting a link from a no-name rather than linking the article itself because I thought the quotes and summary were a good taster of the article).
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Dec 5, 2023 12:09
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Serotoning posted:This is an extreme position that reeks as dogmatic, one that will be tolerated (and it will) because most people's intuitive moral outrage and effervescence point in one direction, mostly along neo-Marxist oppressor-oppressed dichotomic lines. You have just done us the courtesy of making your unthinking bias explicit. yeah it's wild that people reflexively oppose an apartheid state. pretty crazy how biased all these neo-marxists (???) are.
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Dec 5, 2023 14:13
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No. 6 posted:She's a loving moron and isn't worth listening to. A stopped clock and all. No, Main Painframe has a point, confessions produced by Israeli military interrogators are suspect.
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Dec 5, 2023 14:37
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Nucleic Acids posted:No, Main Painframe has a point, confessions produced by Israeli military interrogators are suspect. That doesn't change the fact that Brianna is a hack.
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Dec 5, 2023 14:45
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No. 6 posted:That doesn't change the fact that Brianna is a hack. I would say it does, as it seems the issue is who is saying it and not what is being said.
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Dec 5, 2023 14:53
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Main Paineframe posted:It appears that Batya Ungar-Sargon is saying that "Believe all women" requires us to uncritically accept "confessions" that have been forced from Palestinian captives by Israeli interrogators, who are incidentally quite notorious for their use of torture. Eh, it’s that last sentence that’s really bad, IMO. Saying that females have offered no testimony is pretty callous when women who seemed to have been raped are dead: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/accounts-sexual-violence-hamas-attack-mount-justice-is-remote-israels-victims-2023-12-05/ And if Briahna Joy Gray was paying attention, she would know that there was eyewitness testimony about it early on: https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/17/world/israel-investigates-sexual-violence-hamas/index.html Kalit fucked around with this message at 15:20 on Dec 5, 2023 |
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Dec 5, 2023 14:54
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Why? What would releasing more hostages after the ceasefire wasn't extended achieve? If Israel wanted them back there was a far better way to achieve that than continuing the war. It's disturbing that you miss the obvious thing it would achieve - fewer innocent people in captivity. Hamas should release all its non-soldier hostages for the same reason Israel should release all its non-soldier hostages, end the bombing, end the apartheid - obvious moral obligation. You can say the ends justify the means, that by keeping these people hostage Hamas maintains the only hope that hundreds (or millions) of people have for liberty. It's s horrible trolley problem but the intuition is there. But to ask what would be achieved by freeing people from captivity - their freedom from captivity is achieved. How can you miss that? It doesn't matter how much or how little their state wants them back. By now it's clear to anyone decent that the value of a person's life and freedom is obviously distinct from what the State of Israel says it is. I said come in! posted:Palestinian's dont have a country, they have an open air prison that is occupied by a neighboring state that wants to kill them all. Palestinians have a right to fight back against that.Israel intentionally created the conditions that led to October 7. There is no both sides are wrong, only Israel. You posted this in a discussion about sexual assault. Still I think benefit of the doubt demands we assume you're just talking about fighting back against military targets, and not "fighting back" by sexual violence, or against civilians and children. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 15:32 on Dec 5, 2023 |
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Dec 5, 2023 15:00
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Nucleic Acids posted:I would say it does, as it seems the issue is who is saying it and not what is being said. That was the point. There are better voices to promote who have the same message.
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Dec 5, 2023 15:28
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No. 6 posted:That was the point. There are better voices to promote who have the same message. This is the Israel/Palestine thread, the Policing Which Pundits Are OK To Quote Tweet thread is [gestures elsewhere]
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Dec 5, 2023 15:45
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Darth Walrus posted:https://x.com/seriations/status/1731859470295126197?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q The twitter user you’re mediating here seems to be very insane, judging from the content of their pinned “thread of threads.”
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Dec 5, 2023 16:12
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https://twitter.com/amnesty/status/1732013958234554535
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Dec 5, 2023 16:18
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I fully expect both sides of any conflict to exaggerate the amount of casualties they inflict to the other side, but Hamas' lies do seem particularly desperate. Like the "200 IDF vehicles destroyed per day" claim they seem to have made on multiple occasions is so obviously false it's borderline laughable. I suppose they have to do something to motivate their troops when they're losing this badly - as long as IDF casualties remain an order of magnitude below the attack that started this conflict (and which Hamas has promised to repeat) I cannot imagine Israel being discouraged at all. I'm not sure if I've seen them claim 200 casualties/day, but Hamas continues to have unparalleled access to Gaza...And IDF positions, apparently. https://twitter.com/rdooan/status/1732035518857093581?s=46&t=kY7HKwmb1RBg9U186lxtbg (No gore) Not as reliable as video proof of the explosion, but it's insane just how effective Hamas is at sneaking up on IDF positions.
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Dec 5, 2023 17:05
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Where did he write this? Who else wrote this, and where? I am googling and can't find this line of thought. It's not totally implausible - for every kooky or heinous idea available you will find a distinguished scholar who's espoused it - but I haven't heard this one. Revisiting this briefly for context. It was Dawkins, not Hitchens! It's been 10 years or more since I read both, but the phrasing got stuck in my head. Page 254, 'Love Thy Neighbor' quote:Hartung clearly shows that 'Thou shalt not kill' was never intended to mean what we now think it means. It meant, very specifically, thou shalt not kill Jews. And all those commandments that make reference to 'thy neighbour' are equally exclusive. 'Neighbour' means fellow Jew. Moses Maimonides, the highly respected twelfth-century rabbi and physician, expounds the full meaning of 'Thou shalt not kill' as follows: 'If one slays a single Israelite, he transgresses a negative commandment, for Scripture says, Thou shalt not murder. If one murders wilfully in the presence of witnesses, he is put to death by the sword. Needless to say, one is not put to death if he kills a heathen.' Needless to say! Again, thanks for taking the time to check and supply other angles and examples. And for the person who brought up taqqyia-similes and other implications, I'll assume good faith and not a chance for a cheap shot: the topic being discussed which prompted my post was justification of atrocities and blatant wrongdoing before the world and one's own moral codes, and I cited it as an example of ingroup/outgroup morality. As an example of the type of argument -some- people might deploy. Such maneuvers are not at all unique to the current conflict or jewish/israeli people, of course; human history is rife with this kind of ethical contortionism, from 'nits will make lice' to 'they don't love their children as we do'.
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Dec 5, 2023 17:09
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No. 6 posted:That was the point. There are better voices to promote who have the same message. The only reason she was even brought up is because another poster was angry about her.
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Dec 5, 2023 18:21
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https://twitter.com/N12News/status/1732053194253967703 Been edited a few times, original version translated courtesy of goon Sancho Banana: quote:The War Cabinet met up today (Tuesday) in Herzliya with representatives of the families of the hostages and with those who've returned from captivity. The meeting is being held following a demand from the families, after they announced they would consider intensifying their measures if the cabinet doesn't meet with them. The hostages who were released from captivity by Hamas and participated in the meeting: Yarden Roman, Irena Tati, Yelena Trupanov, Raz Ben Ami and Sharon Konio. Notable for being the first instance of testimony from the freed hostages beyond errant tiktoks & third-party reporting. Hostages seem to be more interested in a deal rather than destroying Hamas, and considering what they went through it's not too surprising; either Israel's intelligence apparatus is completely blind or the IDF is, genuinely, trying to kill the hostages, with constant bombing chasing them from location to location. Hostages are in poor conditions, though they don't allege direct abuse rather than insufficient care. A frustrating aspect of Israel intentionally collapsing Gaza's hospital system, cutting off electricity, and depriving them of water is that we've no clue if this is willful negligence or outright scarcity. On the note of hostage exchanges, from AJA, translation courtesy of goon Al-Saqr: quote:Osama Hamdan political speaker of Hamas Reference to Al-Aqsa is in light of Israel greenlighting a march to it in support of full Jewish control.
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Dec 5, 2023 20:34
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Sephyr posted:Revisiting this briefly for context. It was Dawkins, not Hitchens! It's been 10 years or more since I read both, but the phrasing got stuck in my head. Page 254, 'Love Thy Neighbor' It wasn't a cheap shot, I do think your post was anti-Semitic. I don't think digging up the Dawkins quote changes anything. Regarding my good faith: I reported it, and only replied to your post when it was clear that there was not going to be any response to it. You specifically presented it not as "an example of the type of argument -some- people might deploy" but as something specific that some Israelis are probably reaching for. The implication of "Moses Maimonades and otherTorah scholar/philosophers very clearly wrote that [...]" is that this specific thing is something that some significant number Jews today believe. You couch it with "Not saying every jew/israeli believes that", but if it's an insignificant number why bring it up at all? You're walking this back as a general "human history is rife with this kind of ethical contortionism, from 'nits will make lice' to 'they don't love their children as we do'." when it was a specific thing that some significant number of Jews today believe. That's why I think the comparison to a forwarded Islamophobic email about what Muslims *actually* believe is valid. I was going to let it drop, but you brought it back up and painted it as potentially a cheap shot so  Here's the post I responded to so the context isn't lost: Sephyr posted:Well, I feel like I may be veering into chud territory just by saying this, but Moses Maimonades and otherTorah scholar/philosophers very clearly wrote that if you throat a rock into a crowd aiming to kill a gentile and kill a fellow jew instead, you didn't really err because you wanted to kill the outsider.
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Dec 6, 2023 00:39
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Neurolimal posted:Hostages are in poor conditions, though they don't allege direct abuse rather than insufficient care. A frustrating aspect of Israel intentionally collapsing Gaza's hospital system, cutting off electricity, and depriving them of water is that we've no clue if this is willful negligence or outright scarcity. Great post but I don't see why this is frustrating. I think the distinction you're drawing is basically "does Hamas like that the hostages are miserable and endangered, or do they dislike it (but not enough to actually release the hostages)." I don't see how it matters - tactically, morally, politically, this was and is the only possible result of kidnapping tons of people while provoking a famously cruel military into an all-out war. Does it matter whether Hamas laughs or cries about it?
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Dec 6, 2023 00:54
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Great post but I don't see why this is frustrating. I think the distinction you're drawing is basically "does Hamas like that the hostages are miserable and endangered, or do they dislike it (but not enough to actually release the hostages)." I don't see how it matters - tactically, morally, politically, this was and is the only possible result of kidnapping tons of people while provoking a famously cruel military into an all-out war. Does it matter whether Hamas laughs or cries about it? Thousands of Palestinians are being held in inhuman conditions and these hostages are their only chance they will ever see the light of day. I argue it is a greater good to hold these hostages for now if their release can be used to rescue those held by Israel
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Dec 6, 2023 01:32
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Hamas had the opportunity to release them in exchange for Palestinian prisoners and an extension of the ceasefire. Continuing to hold them will not provide Hamas with leverage for future negotiations - since Israel suspects they are abusing those women (as they abused many victims of the October 7th attack) they will conclude that the only way to free them is to forcibly dismantle Hamas.
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Dec 6, 2023 01:42
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Great post but I don't see why this is frustrating. I think the distinction you're drawing is basically "does Hamas like that the hostages are miserable and endangered, or do they dislike it (but not enough to actually release the hostages)." I don't see how it matters - tactically, morally, politically, this was and is the only possible result of kidnapping tons of people while provoking a famously cruel military into an all-out war. Does it matter whether Hamas laughs or cries about it? I think there's a big difference between "Hamas abused and killed the hostages on purpose" and "Hamas did the best they could to protect and care for the hostages, who suffered deprivation and death as a result of Israel's total lack of concern for the hostages". Of course, the real question isn't whether it matters to you or me. It's whether it matters to the hostages' families, who don't seem quite so eager to assign all the blame to Hamas, as well as whether those concerns are able to move the general Israeli populace.
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Dec 6, 2023 01:49
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Hamas had the opportunity to release them in exchange for Palestinian prisoners and an extension of the ceasefire. Continuing to hold them will not provide Hamas with leverage for future negotiations - since Israel suspects they are abusing those women (as they abused many victims of the October 7th attack) they will conclude that the only way to free them is to forcibly dismantle Hamas. Bruh Israel was the one to refuse to extend it, and regarding the bolded they have overwhelmingly failed at dismantling hamas so far
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Dec 6, 2023 01:51
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Main Paineframe posted:I think there's a big difference between "Hamas abused and killed the hostages on purpose" and "Hamas did the best they could to protect and care for the hostages, who suffered deprivation and death as a result of Israel's total lack of concern for the hostages". The best they could do to protect and care for the hostages would obviously be releasing the hostages so they could escape a horribly impoverished war zone and reunite with their families and caregivers. Obviously they haven't done this. Maybe they're justified in keeping these hostages, in a trolley problem/staying in Omelas sense, by the potential for freeing thousands of cruelly imprisoned Palestinians or by pausing/ending a terrible war. But there's no possibility whatsoever that "Hamas did the best they could to protect and care for the hostages," that's a ridiculous idea. EDIT: WhiskeyWhiskers posted:No it wouldn't. We've literally just seen that holding these hostages has meant that fewer innocents are held in captivity when they are eventually exchanged. Would Israel release their hostages if Hamas unilaterally released theirs? No, we have also seen that occur when the elderly women were released prior to the ceasefire. Clearly holding the hostages until they can be exchanged maximises the most freed people. If true, compelling. But in the post I was responding to, you said Israel didn't really want these people back: WhiskeyWhiskers posted:If Israel wanted them back there was a far better way to achieve that than continuing the war. If Israel doesn't want them back then there's no point holding out for a deal. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Dec 6, 2023 |
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Dec 6, 2023 01:58
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Civilized Fishbot posted:It's disturbing that you miss the obvious thing it would achieve - fewer innocent people in captivity. No it wouldn't. We've literally just seen that holding these hostages has meant that fewer innocents are held in captivity when they are eventually exchanged. Would Israel release their hostages if Hamas unilaterally released theirs? No, we have also seen that occur when the elderly women were released prior to the ceasefire. Clearly holding the hostages until they can be exchanged maximises the most freed people. Civilized Fishbot posted:The best they could do to protect and care for the hostages would obviously be releasing the hostages so they could escape a horribly impoverished war zone and reunite with their families and caregivers. Obviously they haven't done this. That's not ridiculous at all, that's what all evidence points to. When they did find they couldn't provide adequately for them they did release them prematurely. WhiskeyWhiskers fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Dec 6, 2023 |
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Dec 6, 2023 01:59
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