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A big flaming stink posted:Bruh Israel was the one to refuse to extend it, and regarding the bolded they have overwhelmingly failed at dismantling hamas so far
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Dec 6, 2023 02:00
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Israel refused to extend it when Hamas decided to hold back 18 women for unclear reasons and started offering men instead. Do we know this definitively?
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Dec 6, 2023 02:05
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Civilized Fishbot posted:It's disturbing that you miss the obvious thing it would achieve - fewer innocent people in captivity. Put this guy in charge of the Palestinian resistance imo. They might, under their command, immediately lose all their bargaining power to the vastly more powerful ethnostate trying to wipe out their people, but hey, they’d feel drat good about it in the hours and days before their people were cast from their land and murdered en masse. Really, who needs land/for their family to be alive/to continue living when you have the moral high ground.
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Dec 6, 2023 02:07
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:That's not ridiculous at all, that's what all evidence points to. When they did find they couldn't provide adequately for them they did release them prematurely. These people are held as a prisoners with no schedule for release, separated from their families and caregivers, in a war zone where everyone is starving and the IDF is raining down bombs. That is objectively less "protection and care" than they would have if freed. Even if it was the most "protection and care" they could have as hostages in Gaza, it's obviously not "the best [Hamas] could [do] to protect and care for the hostages." They could obviously do more to protect and care for these people by allowing them to escape the war zone where everyone is starving. They're not doing that because they want to keep themselves and Palestine safe, because that's more important to them than the welfare of the hostages. The utilitarian logic here is obvious but it's no reason to say untrue things about Hamas doing the best they can for these people. Jakabite posted:Put this guy in charge of the Palestinian resistance imo. They might, under their command, immediately lose all their bargaining power to the vastly more powerful ethnostate trying to wipe out their people, but hey, they’d feel drat good about it in the hours and days before their people were cast from their land and murdered en masse. Really, who needs land/for their family to be alive/to continue living when you have the moral high ground. In the post you're quoting, I directly acknowledge that they might be right to be keeping these people, as horrifying as it is. That's the whole "third paragraph." If I ran Hamas and I was trying to secure maximal safety and concessions for Palestine, I'd probably hold on to these people, knowing it's utilitarianly correct. I just don't see the point in pretending that these hostages aren't suffering or that their suffering isn't sickening. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Dec 6, 2023 |
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Dec 6, 2023 02:14
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Civilized Fishbot posted:EDIT: I meant it literally, if they want their hostages back they have done far better achieving that with hostage exchanges than with military action. Civilized Fishbot posted:Set aside the stories of These people are held as a prisoners with no schedule for release, separated from their families and caregivers, in a war zone where everyone is starving and the IDF is raining down bombs. That is objectively less "protection and care" than they would have if freed. We don't even know if that's the case. They were all detained by the Israelis upon return and threats were made against the previous hostages when they didn't invent stories of gore and trauma to satisfy Israeli propaganda needs. WhiskeyWhiskers fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Dec 6, 2023 |
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Dec 6, 2023 02:17
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us to begin visa bans for "extreme" west bank settlersquote:The U.S. on Tuesday began imposing visa bans on people involved in violence in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, Washington officials said, after several appeals for Israel to do more prevent violence by Jewish settlers. given how widespread the settler violence and israeli security raids are in the west bank this seems like some very weak pushback. but i guess weak pushback is better than direct endorsement
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Dec 6, 2023 03:42
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Wow, dozens of individuals! This is worse than doing nothing, because it just gives cover for all the rest of the non-"extreme" settlers.
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Dec 6, 2023 04:13
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Jakabite posted:Put this guy in charge of the Palestinian resistance imo. They might, under their command, immediately lose all their bargaining power to the vastly more powerful ethnostate trying to wipe out their people, but hey, they’d feel drat good about it in the hours and days before their people were cast from their land and murdered en masse. Really, who needs land/for their family to be alive/to continue living when you have the moral high ground. What has the hostages gained Hamas, how is Hamas better now than before Oct 7th? That's what I don't get here certain people keep acting like taking the hostages was some great tactical move that they had to do, but it seems to only have gotten the hammer on them harder then before. Not saying they shouldn't fight for their freedom but I don't see how this helps them obtain that.
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Dec 6, 2023 04:14
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Huge propaganda victories? Israeli held hostages released in exchange? Like, do you think Israel would have been less bloodthirsty if there weren't hostages? What's the benefit they're supposedly losing out on?
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Dec 6, 2023 04:21
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Huge propaganda victories? Israeli held hostages released in exchange? Like, do you think Israel would have been less bloodthirsty if there weren't hostages? What's the benefit they're supposedly losing out on? It depends on the audience I guess. The 4 year old (3 year old at the time of capture) whose parents were killed in an attack on their Kibbutz made the news here. I don't think the hostage taking is necessarily the huge propaganda victory you're painting it as.
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Dec 6, 2023 04:55
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:We don't even know if that's the case. Gaza is a grotesque war zone which is being destroyed by a genocidal army, where there's almost no food, no medicine, and very little drinkable water. Once you acknowledge this, it's obvious that "trapped in Gaza" is obviously less safe than "free to leave Gaza." This is why Israel has to stop its horrifying campaign, which makes it literally impossible for all the people trapped in Gaza to be safe or maintain their health. Hamas can't provide either right to any of the hostages whether they want to or not, because they can't even provide either right to themselves or civilian Palestinians. It is simply not possible except in the delusions of right-wing Israelis who think Gazan suffering isn't real and the hostages are collaborators. That's why it doesn't matter whether Hamas are mustache-twirling villains who love to see their hostages suffer or noble souls who hate that they abducted these innocent people and strive to treat them with dignity and honor. Either way these hostages are going to get the bare minimum because they're trapped in a manmade hell where survival is a miracle. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Dec 6, 2023 |
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Dec 6, 2023 04:57
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I just don't think having Israelis live in similar conditions to Palestinians, probably safer if underground, is a horrific imposition on hostages given those conditions are in the hands of the Israelis. It's really up to the Israelis if they want to change that reality for them. And given Netanyahu today told their families that he isn't interested in bringing all the hostages back, they might literally be safer in Gaza than in Israel.DeadlyMuffin posted:It depends on the audience I guess. The 4 year old (3 year old at the time of capture) whose parents were killed in an attack on their Kibbutz made the news here. I don't think the hostage taking is necessarily the huge propaganda victory you're painting it as. I don't mean in international terms, though I'm sure it likely had some positive effect too. The Israelis were frothing at the mouth in rage that the hostages were treated with dignity and had the temerity to show gratitude towards their captors. Civilized Fishbot posted:It's horrific - the conditions faced by Palestinians are horrific. And being kidnapped is intrinsically horrific. To be indefinitely separated from your family is horrific. I'm not pretending, I just disagree. Chickens coming home to roost at worst. WhiskeyWhiskers fucked around with this message at 05:13 on Dec 6, 2023 |
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Dec 6, 2023 05:03
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:I just don't think having Israelis live in similar conditions to Palestinians, probably safer if underground, is a horrific imposition on hostages given those conditions are in the hands of the Israelis. It's horrific - the conditions faced by Palestinians are so horrific that anything "similar" is horrific. And being kidnapped is intrinsically horrific. To be indefinitely separated from your family is horrific. It's an imposition - they can't leave. Them being hostages is being imposed on them. So it's a horrific imposition. The fact that the State of Israel could reduce or end the horror doesn't change that it's a horrific imposition. The hostages aren't the state, their experience of the horrific imposition isn't changed by the fact that it's actually multiple state actors behind their suffering. It is a horrific imposition which might yield the release of many Palestinian hostages, which would be s good thing. It's a horrific imposition which could yield another ceasefire, which would save at least hundreds and probably thousands of lives. By any consequentialist moral calculation it might be justifiable or even obligatory because on net it saves lives. It's still a horrific imposition. Why pretend otherwise? Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 05:16 on Dec 6, 2023 |
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Dec 6, 2023 05:08
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I'd just like to say that there is functionally zero difference between those held without charges by Israel and those held by Hamas. Both groups should not be in the situation their in, and they are presently subjected to conditions they should not endure. Both groups have been subjected to substantiated accusations of violence including sexual violence, per the reports of Josh Paul among others, and it's abhorrent wherever it happens. There are no good guys here, the only distinction is who has agency and power. The just solution is an all-for-all deal, or that both sides independently decide to demonstrate basic morality and release those who they are holding. I suggest the former is slightly more likely.
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Dec 6, 2023 05:13
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:
I don't recall this happening, you have like a quote or something?
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Dec 6, 2023 05:22
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Main Paineframe posted:
Agreed. Keep in mind as well that Egypt already has a lot of refugees from Libya, Iraq, currently a lot more Syrians are there, as well as Sudan. I'm not talking refugee camps, I mean people integrated into Cairo and the rest of the country. Many are thriving but the unemployment is still quite high for Egyptians. From what I heard a couple of weeks ago, Israel offered to pay off Egypt's debt to take the Palestinians but they refused. Egypt does have other plans for the northern Sinai... and in general the government itself is very shaky - still shaky - from their revolution. There's a reason the newer government tore down Tahrir Square. The Revolution is still fresh in their minds. Anyone who doesn't agree with the army is instantly branded as Muslim Brotherhood and they are sketchy as gently caress about that. The country's pound slipping down something like 70% is not helping either. The country is only now starting to get its post-Covid tourism back. The weight of over a million and more is an enormous ask, an entitled demand of this country. We just want the land, you take them. From the first couple of weeks it's been my fear and my sense that that's exactly what Israel wants though - to push those Palestinians into Egypt. Already, it seems like they're setting some refugee tents up there. It was in some ways part of the plan, so new settlements are made in Israel. There's so much more to this, I just have been dreading it and I feel we're getting to that point now. Once they get in, they won't be able to go home again... and then in another six months the western media will show up with its cameras in Egypt and go, Look at these poor people living in squalor, how can other Arabic countries let them live like this? Look at how Arabs treat their own. Again, the dehumanizing overtones will continue, showing how these poor Palestinians never had a chance, when Israel was being so kind to them and look at how much worse their conditions are now. MadSparkle fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Dec 6, 2023 |
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Dec 6, 2023 05:24
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The whole discussion of "why won't Arab countries take Palestinians" is dehumanizing bullshit, of course. Palestinians are entitled to their homes and their land, it's no different than if for some reason everyone had to move from Buffalo into Canada or something. The fact that they would be safe and eventually resettled in Canada is not the point, because it's unacceptable to force people to do that. If an external entity were forcing everyone in Buffalo into Canada and Canada said "hold up, what the gently caress, no!" that doesn't make Canada the rear end in a top hat in the situation.
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Dec 6, 2023 05:41
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:us to begin visa bans for "extreme" west bank settlers Aren't like 50,000 or more of these settlers also US passport holders/ US citizens? I'm not clear on it, please correct me if I am wrong. In any case, That's not pushback, that's just a bit of exhibitionistic whimpering.
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Dec 6, 2023 05:44
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socialsecurity posted:I don't recall this happening, you have like a quote or something? https://twitter.com/MairavZ/status/1716573726760726896 socialsecurity posted:This doesn't seem to say what your original point was or provide any sources of it's own. How does it not? It's a demoralisation of the enemy. The poster is an Israeli journalist who has written for the Washington Post and New York Times talking about Israeli social media posts. I don't speak Hebrew and I doubt you do either? I'll take her word for it, she's hardly likely to be making it up. To back it up, the fact that subsequent hostages released were made to undergo a debriefing by Shin Bet lends credence to the idea Israel felt it lost face with her interview. WhiskeyWhiskers fucked around with this message at 08:30 on Dec 6, 2023 |
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Dec 6, 2023 08:16
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This doesn't seem to say what your original point was or provide any sources of it's own.
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Dec 6, 2023 08:19
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PT6A posted:The whole discussion of "why won't Arab countries take Palestinians" is dehumanizing bullshit, of course. Palestinians are entitled to their homes and their land, it's no different than if for some reason everyone had to move from Buffalo into Canada or something. The fact that they would be safe and eventually resettled in Canada is not the point, because it's unacceptable to force people to do that. If an external entity were forcing everyone in Buffalo into Canada and Canada said "hold up, what the gently caress, no!" that doesn't make Canada the rear end in a top hat in the situation. Those settler bastards from downstate can pry my home from my cold, dead, chicken-wing-grease-covered hands.
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Dec 6, 2023 12:09
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Israel refused to extend it when Hamas decided to hold back 18 women for unclear reasons and started offering men instead. this seems to be just repeating a claim the IDF made with no actual evidence btw
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Dec 6, 2023 14:55
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oops, wrong thread
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Dec 6, 2023 15:58
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punishedkissinger posted:this seems to be just repeating a claim the IDF made with no actual evidence btw TGLT posted:"Miller did not provide any evidence to back up his claim" doesn't inspire a lot of confidence but it's hardly impossible that's the reason even if other hostages report being treated (relatively) well. e: This other Axios article says the Hamas explanation is that a number of the hostages they won't release are IDF soldiers and Israel refused any alternative arrangement. According to this WSJ article Hamas is also claiming they aren't holding any civilian women or children, which if true then would mean those hostages are being held by other factions if they are indeed still hostages - they're saying that at least three of the people on the list (Shiri Bibas and her two sons) are dead. I'd also note that one of the terms of the ceasefire was allowing the Red Cross in to inspect the conditions for the hostages, and Hamas did not comply with this. It is unclear to me why Hamas would not want them to visit hostages unless they're trying to cover up evidence of abuses they have committed.
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Dec 6, 2023 16:44
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Aside from the fact that these two statements conflict with each other did you miss my followup post? TGLT posted:They're not contradictory I don't think. They're saying they won't release IDF soldiers ("[Osama Hamdan] said that the women Israel proposed to be released included female IDF soldiers" from Axios), the civilians that are on the list are not being held by Hamas but by other factions and they're claiming to have trouble securing their release ("Hamas has told Egyptian negotiators that some of the women named on a list compiled by Israeli officials were held by other groups that are resisting pressure to hand them over" from WSJ), and that they have made other offers that Israel rejected ("Hamas in a statement said it had offered to release elderly men and two Israeli hostages, as well as the bodies of hostages it said were killed during Israeli airstrikes in Gaza" from Axios) These statements don't seem contradictory, soldiers weren't part of the original negotiations and Hamas is saying they don't have the ability to get the civilians on the list released, and additionally point to Israel refusing any alternative deal - such as for elderly men and the bodies of the dead. Now if you don't think Hamas isn't being honest that they can't get the other factions in line that's a valid assessment but that is different from them giving two conflicting statements. e: Like I don't think Israel has stated anywhere that they think Hamas is lying about not directly holding the civilian hostages, just that they think they're lying about not being able to get the other factions to release them. TGLT fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Dec 6, 2023 |
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Dec 6, 2023 16:53
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The sourced articles are just regurgitating Israeli propaganda. The first sentences are “Israeli officials say” and “Israeli officials told”. These are not reliable sources, they are just embedded reporting from a government who is committing genocide.
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Dec 6, 2023 17:24
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I'd also note that one of the terms of the ceasefire was allowing the Red Cross in to inspect the conditions for the hostages, and Hamas did not comply with this. It is unclear to me why Hamas would not want them to visit hostages unless they're trying to cover up evidence of abuses they have committed. That strikes me as the most intuitive explanation but not the only plausible one - the other one that seems plausible to me is that they just truly don't trust the neutrality of the Red Cross (or Red Crescent). They .ight believe that the Red Cross workers would deliberately/accidentally expose where the hostages are being held, say the hostages are in worse condition than they are, etc. Whatever their attitudes were beforehand, I think fighting a war like this necessarily makes you more paranoid and untrusting.
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Dec 6, 2023 17:32
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After a month of investigations, Brazilian Federal Police has found no link between the suspects publicly pointed out by Israel as being Hezbollah agents preparing terror attacks in South America. https://www.cartacapital.com.br/cartaexpressa/pf-descarta-ligacao-de-brasileiros-com-o-hezbollah-e-justica-determina-soltura/ Both suspects have been released.
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Dec 6, 2023 17:35
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Irony Be My Shield posted:
They literaly handed over the hostages to the red cross. The hostages and their families spent yesterday railing against their own government for attacking them on the way to Gaza and bombing them during the campaign. There are zero firsthand allegations from the released hostages about being tortured or whatever, so implying that hamas has a secret group that they WERE torturing and don't want to release is pretty conspiratorial.
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Dec 6, 2023 18:27
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National Parks posted:They literaly handed over the hostages to the red cross. There's some confusion here. Hamas let the Red Cross handle the return of the hostages that Hamas released, but Hamas hasn't allowed the Red Cross to see the hostages who are still locked up, despite the US and Israeli claiming this is part of the ceasefire agreement and the Red Cross itself urging Hamas to do it. quote:There are zero firsthand allegations from the released hostages about being tortured or whatever, so implying that hamas has a secret group that they WERE torturing and don't want to release is pretty conspiratorial. "A secret group that they were torturing" is indeed conspiratorial. But it makes sense Hamas wouldn't want to let the Red Cross see the conditions described by the hostages, their families, and their doctors: extremely little food and next to no medicine. I don't understand why anyone in this thread would believe it is possible for a prisoner in Gaza to be healthy right now. The only people in Gaza with access to consistent nutrition, water, and medicine are the IDF soldiers. Whether Hamas wants their captives to be healthy or not, it simply isn't possible, and it makes sense they don't want the Red Cross to start castigating Hamas for it. Hamas can't provide any better for the hostages short of meeting their international-law obligation to release them without conditions, which obviously isn't going to happen. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Dec 6, 2023 |
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Dec 6, 2023 18:43
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National Parks posted:They literaly handed over the hostages to the red cross. The hostages and their families spent yesterday railing against their own government for attacking them on the way to Gaza and bombing them during the campaign. There is a recent letter to the Red Cross by 8 released hostages that does claim abuse: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/released-israeli-hostages-ask-red-cross-visit-remaining-captives-2023-12-04/ quote:The hostages said their Hamas captors subjected them to "lack of medical treatment for illnesses and injuries with culpable neglect, severe food shortage and unsanitary living conditions."
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Dec 6, 2023 18:44
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Kalit posted:That’s not what 8 released hostages’ recent letter to the Red Cross says: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/released-israeli-hostages-ask-red-cross-visit-remaining-captives-2023-12-04/ Other than the unspecified physical and psychological abuse (which I'm not discounting, but could also be because they're hostages. No way to know for sure until they make substantive claims) those are just the living conditions in Gaza at the moment. Are people expecting Hamas to put up the hostages at a hotel? The hostages didn't have food and medicine because they were in Gaza. Nobody there has food and medicine atm.
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Dec 6, 2023 18:47
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Civilized Fishbot posted:There's some confusion here. Hamas let the Red Cross handle the return of the hostages that Hamas released, but Hamas hasn't allowed the Red Cross to see the hostages who are still locked up, despite the US and Israeli claiming this is part of the ceasefire agreement and the Red Cross itself urging Hamas to do it. Hamas certainly still has strategic reserves of food in the tunnels. It might not be great eating, but the hostages aren't going to be starving. quote:The hostages said they suffered from a "severe food shortage." Their families and doctors describe extremely unhealthy amounts of weight loss. One way to know for sure whether they're starving would be for the Red Cross to come in and check. Hamas has declined this, and I think the most charitable explanation is that these people are in bad condition and Hamas has neither the resources to improve it nor an interest in the world focusing on it at a time when attention is mostly focused on the much larger humanitarian crisis in Gaza. You can have a food shortage, unhealthy weight loss and not be in any danger of actual starvation. WhiskeyWhiskers fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Dec 6, 2023 |
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Dec 6, 2023 18:55
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Miftan posted:Other than the unspecified physical and psychological abuse (which I'm not discounting, but could also be because they're hostages. I honestly can't tell what you're trying to say here, I have it down to two possibilities but it could be something else. Not trying to come at you, honestly trying to clarify. 1. They could be abused, but only "because they're hostages" (as opposed to some other reason) 2. They could be making up the abuse claims, "because they're hostages" Miftan posted:Are people expecting Hamas to put up the hostages at a hotel? The hostages didn't have food and medicine because they were in Gaza. Nobody there has food and medicine atm. They're turning down the Red Cross's pleas to let them treat these injured, traumatized, malnourished people. It would be better if they let the Red Cross come in and help. Then they would have more food and more medicine at no cost to Hamas except however it might impact their public reputation or negotiating position if the hostages are in a better or worse condition than assumed. WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Hamas certainly still has strategic reserves of food in the tunnels. It might not be great eating, but the hostages aren't going to be starving. The former hostages who wrote that letter said that they suffered from a "severe food shortage." Their families and doctors describe extremely unhealthy amounts of weight loss. One way to know for sure whether they're starving would be for the Red Cross to come in and check. Hamas has declined this, and I think the most charitable explanation is that these people are in very bad shape and Hamas has neither the resources to improve it nor an interest in the world focusing on it at a time when attention is mostly focused on the much larger humanitarian crisis in Gaza. WhiskeyWhiskers posted:. Eerily reminiscent of the Israeli state saying that it doesn't starve Gaza because it calculated how many calories they need to stay alive and allows them to import exactly that much. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Dec 6, 2023 |
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Dec 6, 2023 19:00
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I honestly can't tell what you're trying to say here, I have it down to two possibilities but it could be something else. Not trying to come at you, honestly trying to clarify. There are plenty of other reasons Hamas might not be able to. You are just using your preconceived biases to proclaim wild speculation as likely fact or “charitable explanation” which is not in fact charitable.
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Dec 6, 2023 19:23
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Mean Baby posted:There are plenty of other reasons Hamas might not be able to. Like what? The two I can come up with are "they don't want the Red Cross to report the hostages are suffering" or "they don't want the Red Cross to somehow sabotage the hostages' confinement or some other element of the war effort." The second explanation I don't think I'd compelling because the Red Cross has been so active in hostage delivery and I think over the decades have established themselves as reliably neutral. "Not be able to" is interesting. Why wouldn't they be able to lead the Red Cross to the hostages that they themselves are confining? I can see why they wouldn't want to, but saying they're not even able to do it - they know where the hostages are, they have access to those rooms, what would make them unable to bring a Red Cross doctor over there? And the what's the more charitable explanation? I can think of less charitable explanations, but I think my explanation is pretty charitable. A Hamas guy I made up in my head posted:Look, we want these hostages to be as healthy as possible, but that's still pretty unhealthy because we're in a war zone with very little food or water or medicine, we can't do anything about that, only Israel can. Well, we could release them, but then we're sacrificing the safety of many more Palestinians. If the Red Cross comes in, to look at the hostages, they'll see that they're doing as badly as everyone else in Gaza, they'll make news out of it, and this will lower our capacity to fight and negotiate on behalf of the Palestinian people, millions of whom are suffering as badly if not worse than these hostages. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Dec 6, 2023 |
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Dec 6, 2023 19:28
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I do think it's worth noting that we located & killed Bin Laden specifically by violating the neutrality of aid doctors, and it's a certainty that Israel's going to have even less scruples than us on the matter. Considering their iffy concern for the hostages outside being politically pressured, it's somewhat understandable to think that the focus on getting the Red Crescent to see the hostages could be the stepping stone to "if the Red Crescent does not divulge how the hostages are being managed we will assume they are all Hamas", especially when they've already laid the groundwork by accusing them of collaboration. Similar to how the constant refrain of "Egypt doesn't care about Palestinians, they're not 'letting' them through!" Is obviously zionists being unhappy that the border isn't usable as an ethnic cleansing tool. Of course, it's entirely reasonable to argue that the chance of this happening is worth making sure the hostages are all healthy, especially as we know one of them has broken ribs, which can cause some serious internal problems if left unaddressed. It's also worth noting that Israel violated the no-surveillance clause of the ceasefire as part of their attempts to provoke Hamas into breaking it first, and that could have complicated bringing in aid workers.
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Dec 6, 2023 19:35
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Like what? The two I can come up with are "they don't want the Red Cross to report the hostages are suffering" or "they don't want the Red Cross to somehow sabotage the hostages' confinement or some other element of the war effort." How about the US has been giving Israel the locations of humanitarian groups all through Gaza "so they won't be targeted" and then whoops the locations get aistriked anyways. https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/21/u-s-has-sent-israel-data-on-aid-group-locations-to-try-to-prevent-strikes-00128336 quote:Still, Israel has launched operations against Hamas in or near aid sites, including hospitals, leading to the destruction of buildings and the blocking of fuel and other critical supplies. National Parks fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Dec 6, 2023 |
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Dec 6, 2023 19:37
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In addition, there may be extreme logistical challenges to seeing all the hostages. There is also the risk of Israeli blowing the aid workers up and blaming it on Hamas.
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Dec 6, 2023 19:39
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I honestly can't tell what you're trying to say here, I have it down to two possibilities but it could be something else. Not trying to come at you, honestly trying to clarify. Sorry, I could have been clearer. I meant that while it's possible that the Israeli hostages are being abused, we've not had any substantive claims beyond 'no food and medicine' which is unavoidable in Gaza right now. I suspect that people who were kidnapped from a modern western country and taken prisoner in a war zone would consider it "physical and psychological torture" even if Hamas just left them in a room with working toilets and enough food, medicine, and water. Until the released hostages actually say HOW Hamas abuses all their hostages I'm going to assume it's just that yeah, being a hostage in a war zone sucks! There isn't enough food and medicine. That's Israel's fault. Your assertion that if Hamas cared about the prisoners' well being they'd just let them go is pretty wild though. If all Hamas wanted was for these people to be comfortable, they wouldn't have kidnapped them in the first place! Also, you can easily turn this argument around and say that Israel is clearly abusing a magnitude more Palestinians that are in Israeli prisons and were basically kidnapped as well. So really we should be pointing this finger at Israel first. You're just arguing semantics because when everyone is saying "It looks like Hamas is doing the best they can with the hostages and so far there's no substantive evidence to the contrary" everyone but you understands that there's an implict clause afterwards that says "..in the context of being in a war zone and wanting to keep hostages"
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Dec 6, 2023 22:08
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