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Tankbuster posted:it would also be kinda boring if 90% of the army routs from a gameplay perspective. I just headcanon that its a 1:9 killed/wounded ratio Games in general have this issue. Like how in FPSes you can just mow down everyone effortlessly and every dipshit mercenary or gang member will fight you to the death, nobody flees or surrenders
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Dec 5, 2023 00:41
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skooma512 posted:Games in general have this issue. Like how in FPSes you can just mow down everyone effortlessly and every dipshit mercenary or gang member will fight you to the death, nobody flees or surrenders I forget where I was reading about this, maybe I was thumbing through a textbook on game design or something, but players report certain realistic behaviours as "unrealistic" and frustrating. I seem to remember fleeing being at the top of the list. Iirc Owlcat's Pathfinder games annoyed a lot of people by having stuff like this 
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Dec 5, 2023 00:56
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Glad FF brought up Fields of Glory since it's kind of an interesting thing. I played around with it the last time it came up in the thread and I think was free to play. It's a pretty neat game because it does model a morale-based battle system and tries to have realistic issues. It really made you think in a different way than most games and once it clicked it felt good. But it's also a difficult sell. "It's 4 turns into the battle and I'm just trying to wrangle chaos. My undisciplined warriors chased the retreating legion soldiers and now they're on bad terrain and flanked. My cavalry is out of position and needs 3 turns to fully turn. My best unit took some bad spear hits, lost 10% strength and is about to break because they feel helpless. Probably still gonna win it, it's pretty fun." Most people want the Total War style system where they're pulling off brilliant tactics and crushing their enemies with their elite forces. Dealing with stuff like herding bad warriors and actually skirmishing with weak ranged fighters is a different feel. It's the same problem that I've seen mentioned with fortifications in Total War. You want to ultimately have badass sieges and defenses at your castles and forts. But any remotely reasonable AI would only attack a fort if it has overwhelming force. So you don't get to see your cool fort in action unless they make the AI bad on purpose. I do think going to AI personalities that will do stuff like that is an okay fix but then you're intentionally sacrificing difficulty for fun. Which is fine, but kind of disappointing.
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Dec 5, 2023 02:55
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Yeah i feel there's a game to be made that's just about siege warfare to get the ground laid the way that we sort of instinctively get Total War battles. FOG and it's heritage back to DBA do also sort of have the issue that the most interesting armies are also the most tactically flexible ones- I was kinda interested in Infamy Infamy which is a skirmish level Romans vs Gauls game that is as equally mechancially interested in the fervor and charisma of a Gallic tribe as the tactical drill of the Romans
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Dec 5, 2023 03:02
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Parakeet vs. Phone posted:Glad FF brought up Fields of Glory since it's kind of an interesting thing. I played around with it the last time it came up in the thread and I think was free to play. It's a pretty neat game because it does model a morale-based battle system and tries to have realistic issues. It really made you think in a different way than most games and once it clicked it felt good. Shoot I should play it again
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Dec 5, 2023 03:12
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Parakeet vs. Phone posted:Glad FF brought up Fields of Glory since it's kind of an interesting thing. I played around with it the last time it came up in the thread and I think was free to play. It's a pretty neat game because it does model a morale-based battle system and tries to have realistic issues. It really made you think in a different way than most games and once it clicked it felt good. Field of Glory II owns, and I even like the grand strategy game that bolts onto it, Field of Glory Empires, just because it gives interesting context to the tactical battles
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Dec 5, 2023 03:22
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Field of Glory Kingdoms looks good. There are some things there CK 3 would benefit from.
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Dec 5, 2023 03:24
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My Alpha Centauri game is over in a victory. A mere ten turns since my previous post. These late game turns take longer than usual due to moving all my units but still a very short time. Yangs entire industrial heartland conquered. I took all his size 14 cities and he's mostly left with his sea colonies. Even at this point he wasn't offering a ceasefire, much less a surrender. This took only ten turns! Although I did pre-postion my units for the previous screenshot so I had most of my offensive army in place already. War in this game can take a long time but if you have an overwhelming advantage and fast units you can overrun your enemies really quickly. That's probably good from a game design perspective, it lets you win quickly if your victory is inevitable.  I then voted to let myself win the game, taking Lal and Zakharov with me. I just asked everybody for a Pact and Lal was the only one that said yes. Zakharov had already surrendered to me way back when. He gets to be my chief science advisor when I rule Planet. Now all that's left is to figure out what changes I want to make to Deidre. I think there's something that is represented in Deidre's lore that isn't' represented mechanically and that'ss her creation of a new neopagan religion on Planet. She's one of the two religious factions of the original 7. For this, I will be giving Deidre impunity to the negative effects of Fundamentalist Politics and keep her impunity to the penalties of Green Economics. Deidre leads a Faction of Neo-pagan Ecologists so I think it's thematically appropriate that she is able ignore the Research penalty of Fundamentalism. The probe bonus is pretty nice and is also mechanically appropriate. Our favorite and most noble animals are animals like bears, lions, wolves, t-rexes, bald eagles and many other apex predators. We think of them as being perfect hunters but the truth is a lot of them will often scavenge food by bullying weaker animals off their kill. Food is food, after all. If you're Deidre and find yourself in a tech disadvantage, try taking a page from the animal kingdom and steal some technologies by bullying somebody weaker than you are. The Morale penalty also encourages you to get non-mindworm units, which is what you're supposed to do, and it reinforces the bullying scavenger metaphor. I used this strategy a lot with Deidre, even though I still had the Research penalty from Fundamentalism in my game. If you go Green with Deidre then you get +4 Efficiency and can go 100% Labs or Econ without penalty. Most other Factions require Green+Democratic to do this. However this also means Deidre doesn't get much bonus from going Green+Democratic so she can take another choice. You can't take Police State since that will reduce your Efficiency below +4 so that leaves Fundamentalism. This is a pretty unique combination for Deidre and one I certainly want to highlight. I also sometimes ran Fundamentalist+Knowledge which is also a fairly unique combination that my new Deidre will favor. When playing other Factions i often use Fundamentalist + Wealth (+Planned) as a decent hybrid option with +2 Industry and only the minor Morale penalty from -1 Morale. However, Deidre's inherent -1 Morale brings that to -2 Morale, at which point your positive combat modifiers are halved and you basically can't fight a war so Deidre can't take Wealth during a war and has to take either Power or Knowledge. I also increased her Planet bonus to +2 instead of +1. I want her to match Cha Dawn as I want them as dark mirrors of each other. The overall effect of my changes to Deidre is that she doesn't have anything that she's spectacular at but she's very flexible and pretty good in a lot of situations. The thing she's actually great at is playing from behind. Psi Combat ignores tech disadvantages. Going Green lets her focus completely on Econ (or Labs) and then Fundamentalist lets her steal your technologies. Playing as Deidre lets you adapt very easily to a wide variety of situations. The free Tree Farms encourage you to build forests which are also the most flexible of the Tile Improvements. Flexibility and adaptability are the thematic ideas for Deidre with Forests and native lifeforms being the more practical things in the game that she highlights. I don't anticipate my changes making a huge change to her when she's played by the AI but we'll see what happens next game. Coming up next, I'm going to show my new changes to Cha Dawn. He's going to be a weird one. He will be like Deidre in some ways but where she uses forests he is going to try to spread xenofungus. I'm looking forward to people claiming my changes make him unbalanced. Here's an unrelated picture of the best start I think I ever got, unfortunately I could play it as I hadn't implemented my changes and just wanted to look at some things. Those are boreholes that ancient aliens built on this Planet and a few obelisk that they also built for unclear reasons. The obelisks are probably related to the "Flowering" that the aliens wanted to do. . 
BearsBearsBears has issued a correction as of 08:17 on Dec 5, 2023 |
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Dec 5, 2023 05:29
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Parakeet vs. Phone posted:It's the same problem that I've seen mentioned with fortifications in Total War. You want to ultimately have badass sieges and defenses at your castles and forts. But any remotely reasonable AI would only attack a fort if it has overwhelming force. So you don't get to see your cool fort in action unless they make the AI bad on purpose. I do think going to AI personalities that will do stuff like that is an okay fix but then you're intentionally sacrificing difficulty for fun. Which is fine, but kind of disappointing. This by the way is exactly how the AI worked in Medieval 1, and IIRC Shogun 1 didn't even have siege battles (though it did have cool ninja and geisha movies, whatever happened to those?) Combined with the boardgamey map it meant that fights happened on the field, and I still swear the AI was more competent back then, which means my most memorable battles were in those early games, though Shogun 2 did pretty well also. Then in Rome 1 they made drat near every town walled, plus situated only about a turns march from the other towns, plus 3D map with little geographical rhyme or reason for armies to be anywhere specific, let alone an AI competent enough to position their armies anywhere specific, and suddenly 90%+ of all battles were siege battles against an AI that utterly sucked at siege battles. Reviewers and idiots (I repeat myself) loved it because the grapics were improved. Frosted Flake posted:Field of Glory Kingdoms looks good. There are some things there CK 3 would benefit from. I'm really looking forward to FoG Kingdoms. Orange Devil has issued a correction as of 10:49 on Dec 5, 2023 |
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Dec 5, 2023 10:35
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Orange Devil posted:This by the way is exactly how the AI worked in Medieval 1, and IIRC Shogun 1 didn't even have siege battles (though it did have cool ninja and geisha movies, whatever happened to those?) Shogun 2 still had them, but AFAIK was the last game to. They just vanished without explanation and very few people noticing. The latter is probably the reason they did. They were a fun novelty, but ultimately I'd bet most players hit the perma-skip button and just forget about them.
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Dec 5, 2023 18:24
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The problem with Total War games is that they're bad. The first one gave you just enough of a turn based layer to mash army mans into each other and that was all that was needed ever. Especially given the sorts of battles players want.
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Dec 5, 2023 18:30
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Complications posted:Shogun 2 still had them, but AFAIK was the last game to. They just vanished without explanation and very few people noticing. The latter is probably the reason they did. They were a fun novelty, but ultimately I'd bet most players hit the perma-skip button and just forget about them. they were too nerve racking
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Dec 5, 2023 22:42
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Hey you're right, I forgot about those videos. Shogun 2 is the last game I remember them from. I'd end up skipping them most of the time but it was a fun little way to give some artificial tension. A few of the animations were funny. A sensible chuckle when the ninja tries to pour poison down a long string into a dudes drinking bowl. It would be cool to have something that in total Warhammer 3 but the scope would be way too big, a nigh infinite combinations of models trying to breach the gates or wound an enemy agent.
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Dec 5, 2023 23:03
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Minenfeld! posted:The problem with Total War games is that they're bad. The first one gave you just enough of a turn based layer to mash army mans into each other and that was all that was needed ever. Especially given the sorts of battles players want. Yup.
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Dec 5, 2023 23:04
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Orange Devil posted:This by the way is exactly how the AI worked in Medieval 1, and IIRC Shogun 1 didn't even have siege battles (though it did have cool ninja and geisha movies, whatever happened to those?) jokes aside the AI in shogun 2 isn't that good. Generals love charging headfirst into the lines. Each one of the games since has had better AI but it has led to complaints like "I wanted to cast this cool spell to thandos snap half their army but the unengaged units dodged it outright."
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Dec 5, 2023 23:13
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Tankbuster posted:jokes aside the AI in shogun 2 isn't that good. Generals love charging headfirst into the lines. Each one of the games since has had better AI but it has led to complaints like "I wanted to cast this cool spell to thandos snap half their army but the unengaged units dodged it outright." its decent enough, the way it likes to sit on hills means that winning the archer duel matters so you can make it go down and attack you very bad at siege assaults though
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Dec 5, 2023 23:46
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I dont remember much about the Shogun 2 AI but I do remember some memorable battles because it was the first time they just let units scale walls without needing siege equipment which was something the AI could kinda sorta handle so at least not every fight was putting archers on walls and stacking spearmen on the one gate the AI battering ram would break. Also I feel like Japan being a smaller chunk of geography than all of Europe or whatever but map size remaining comparable meant cities were further away so more non-siege fights? Also because they designed the map to have a lot of inaccessible terrain, basically leiding to hallways from one city to the other, which funnels the AI army to kinda useful places? Like, they appeared to have done actual design to compensate for the AIs limitations, which is good! Orange Devil has issued a correction as of 23:49 on Dec 5, 2023 |
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Dec 5, 2023 23:46
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they were criticized at the time for being spidermen.
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Dec 5, 2023 23:47
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Not by me, see my edit, that poo poo is good game design.
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Dec 5, 2023 23:49
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yes, and they have mostly kept that design. Units even get tired climbing walls so you can kill them easily with worse quality troops.
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Dec 5, 2023 23:55
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my most memorable shogun 2 battle was in a co-op campaign with a friend, i was hojo he was takeda it was at a high difficulty so he got his army caught out in a bad position attacking into south shinano (something we all probably did playing takeda) and lost it some aditional mistakes trying to defend north shinano and hes got like two full enemy armies with a lot of samurai in them heading towards kai wich had barely any troops there i had to scramble together a bunch of ashigaru led by my four sons to send as reinforcements in the battle i had to rush to get into the castle, first taking out some enemy units who deployed in between (and losing all my sons in the process) ended up winning with a only handfull of half-dead units left
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Dec 6, 2023 00:00
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Shogun 2 sieges were a good idea but the AI was suicidallt aggressive on them
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Dec 6, 2023 00:01
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It's been a long time since I read about it, but I'm pretty sure even if the climbing walls thing isn't exactly accurate, Japanese castles had a very different design mentality than what we're used to, and siege equipment basically wasn't used at all there historically? Wasn't the point of samurai castles tiring people out while they walked up a slope under arrow fire? Rather than being kept out entirely by walls, I mean. It seems like the game basically got that right.
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Dec 6, 2023 00:05
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Frosted Flake posted:It's been a long time since I read about it, but I'm pretty sure even if the climbing walls thing isn't exactly accurate, Japanese castles had a very different design mentality than what we're used to, and siege equipment basically wasn't used at all there historically? Yeah iirc they were already designed to be low to the ground like post cannon European star forts to protect against earthquakes, so they adapted to gunpowder warfare much easier than European castles did
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Dec 6, 2023 00:07
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This website seems to go through the features if someone wants to explain it. It seems like CA actually got this mostly right?
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Dec 6, 2023 00:09
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StashAugustine posted:Yeah iirc they were already designed to be low to the ground like post cannon European star forts to protect against earthquakes, so they adapted to gunpowder warfare much easier than European castles did Interesting. The book The Gunpowder Age makes the argument about the use of rammed earth walls in China being a reason why they never developed large cannons/artillery. Since the walls were so much thicker and resistant to shock than European fortifications, breeches during sieges almost never happened and so when they did develop gunpowder they mostly stuck to anti-personnel uses instead of anti-fortification.
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Dec 6, 2023 01:43
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It's rather impressive how much of a nothingburger Civilization Beyond Earth ended up being. BearsBearsBears you should do a deep dive into that if you have it
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Dec 6, 2023 03:51
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gradenko_2000 posted:It's rather impressive how much of a nothingburger Civilization Beyond Earth ended up being. BearsBearsBears you should do a deep dive into that if you have it didn’t it come out between the two civ v expansions so it didn’t even use the fixed civ v as a baseline, instead using the half baked vanilla civ v rules it’s still kind of astonishing remembering how bad the civ v launch was. the intro cinematic was to cover up the menu loading so it was unskippable until 20 sec in and there was no title splash screen so it looked like your game just crashed instead. and that was the state of the game for 2 years FrancisFukyomama has issued a correction as of 03:59 on Dec 6, 2023 |
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Dec 6, 2023 03:56
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Yeah it was a cheap cashgrab.
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Dec 6, 2023 04:01
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Lostconfused posted:Yeah it was a cheap cashgrab. I mean I think civ v being horrible at launch wasn’t intentional, they just got in over their heads with the tactical combat and that hotshot young lead designer. it ended up in a fairly reasonable state by the end of its life cycle, better than civ 3 at least
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Dec 6, 2023 04:09
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Oh, I meant beyond earth.
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Dec 6, 2023 04:10
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Lostconfused posted:Oh, I meant beyond earth. oh yeah that’s true, that game looked like poo poo
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Dec 6, 2023 04:40
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FrancisFukyomama posted:oh yeah that’s true, that game looked like poo poo After the expansion and a bunch of patches it ended up almost playable.
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Dec 6, 2023 05:41
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gradenko_2000 posted:It's rather impressive how much of a nothingburger Civilization Beyond Earth ended up being. BearsBearsBears you should do a deep dive into that if you have it I'm probably not going to do that. Just watch Mandalore Gaming's review of Alpha Centauri instead, he mentions Beyond Earth. There's just not a lot of "there" there. I have played it but I don't remember much from it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oDIG4RRcLM I don't think Beyond Earth is particularly bad but it is mediocre on all levels. That might be worse though, it has nothing to recommend it. I've played and enjoyed a lot of game have bad elements but have parts that I really like. One of the things I distinctly remember was that every single time you built a new building, you got a choice for an additional bonus for that building. This always struck me a bit of weird needless complexity. You already had technologies, virtues, and affinities to deal with why do you also have to pick from two options every time you build a new building? This also happened right when you built the building before you had played around with it and I don't think you could find out in-game what the choices would be in advance. They should have integrated that poo poo into affinities, virtues, and technologies. I feel like that is a symptom of what's wrong with Beyond Earth, it's a group of loosely connected systems instead of a single coherent system. It was designed by committee without somebody imposing a vision of any sort on it. Virtues are an alternate progression system powered by culture (like traditions in Stellaris). Affinities are your future society, whether you want to be cyborgs, alien hybrids, or stay pure human. Let me talk about Alpha Centauri again. One of the most popular questions about history is "What caused the fall of Rome?". Somehow this question becomes harder to question the more you know about history. Historians will always give you some bullshit about "complicated factors" and "multiple interacting causes". If you ask a normal person they'll be able to tell you exactly what caused Rome to fall and how that's relevant to the problems of today's world.  About goddamn time. The single biggest unanswered question in SMAC is what exactly happened to Earth. Things were deteriorating and then contact was lost at some point during the journey. What was Earth missing that would have allowed it to survive. Was it a lack of care for the environment? Was it excessive individualism? Could have technology have saved us? Should we have unleashed the full power of the free market? Perhaps organizing our society more like our military was the solution. Was it a loss of religion? Did we just need to work together harder under the UN? I do think this is a big appeal of Alpha Centauri and part of what makes the game so enduring. 
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Dec 6, 2023 09:04
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In the SMAC lore, is it confirmed that earth is completely destroyed and depopulated? I enjoy a sci Fi twist where enlightened colonists leave earth assuming it's doomed, but the teeming mass of humanity manages to survive and eventually claw back to some level of technology. The earth survivors might even have some resentment toward the opportunistic/cowardly defectors that left them to die.
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Dec 6, 2023 09:49
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Did you guys ever read the SMAC novels? Isn’t there a canonical ‘winner’? I remember reading a summary or something once it sounded kinda wild.
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Dec 6, 2023 11:46
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it’s so sad Rome fell due to ligma
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Dec 6, 2023 11:59
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palindrome posted:In the SMAC lore, is it confirmed that earth is completely destroyed and depopulated? I enjoy a sci Fi twist where enlightened colonists leave earth assuming it's doomed, but the teeming mass of humanity manages to survive and eventually claw back to some level of technology. The earth survivors might even have some resentment toward the opportunistic/cowardly defectors that left them to die. It's never confirmed that it's completely depopulated but you don't have communication with Earth at any point in the game. The game takes place over 100+ years and a round trip message would only take eight years. There are a few more details revealed in some of the victory interludes. Economic/Conquest Victory quote:Not a word has been heard from Earth in all the years since Planetfall, only a deafening silence across all frequencies, so one can only presume that you now rule all that is left of humankind. The mysterious and growing Planetmind remains a significant challenge, but humanity is now prepared to meet this alien presence, friend or foe, as a united species. The human species must survive, and it is your duty, your sworn vow, to see that it does. Diplomatic Victory, similar but slightly different. quote:The docking thrusters fire and you hear the airlock bolts thud into place. You have arrived at the new orbital Planetary Headquarters to assume leadership of the fledgling Executive Council. Not a word has been heard from Earth in all the years since Planetfall, so one can only presume that you and your colleagues now preside over all that is left of humankind. Transcendence Victory quote:Occasionally You spot one of Your transhuman friends/symbiotes supervising activity on a scaffolding; even the immortals sometimes crave the risk and adventure of independent incarnation. Some of the most daring souls even undertook to resume interstellar travel, beginning with a return to Your nearest neighbor to sift through the ashes of its third planet and recolonize their home system. In the present age You hear a nanotech civilization is thriving there once again. This is interesting. This is from a different Faction winning the Transcendence Victory. So it's from a Transcendence Defeat, still very optimistic. You (as the Faction leader) basically mope around for a bit after transcending your physical form and then the the planetmind comes to you to get you to command a seedship sent to Earth to create a new planetmind there. quote:The maneuver at last complete, the safety shutters retract from the viewport and you behold a sight lost to human eyes for over $NUM3 centuries. Deep blues, swirling whites, the azure tint of a rich oxygen atmosphere. Inviting browns and greens of continents basking in the sun, a few scattered impact craters the only visible signs of a war now buried in the aeons. Third planet. Earth. Home. These are from the last interludes, bits of a (slightly) dynamic story told to you throughout the game. I've just realized that I haven't been getting them. Frankly they're not some of the best parts of Alpha Centauri but they aren't bad and it's weird that I haven't been getting them at all. Maybe it's because I've been technically playing scenarios? Punished Turtle posted:Did you guys ever read the SMAC novels? Isn’t their a canonical ‘winner’? I remember reading a summary or something once it sounded kinda wild. I read the prequel novella. It's fine but nothing great. You can piece together a rough story based on just the in game quotes and the fate of some people is clear. Deidre and Zakharov survive until the end. You get quotes from both of them right up until the very end of the game. Morgan also has quotes until pretty drat late. The Spartans were destroyed by the Gaia's Stepdaughters. Like all militaries they trained and prepared for the last war and were blind-sided by the next one. quote:As we approached, we were confronted with the ruined splendor of Sparta Command. The true immensity of the place became instantly apparent as our Quantum Tank crunched over the rubble and parked next to a shattered bunker, but the extent of the destruction took weeks to assess. The shielded datacore had sustained several massive breaches and smoke still billowed from the numerous cannon ports. There were few signs of human life. quote:“Mary had a little lamb, Miriam steps through an un-attuned psi-gate along with her last loyal followers. She's either completely physically annihilated or possibly is transported bodily into Heaven. quote:Go through, my children! The time of miracles is upon us. Let us cast off sin and walk together to the Garden of the Lord. With God's mercy we shall meet again on the other side. Unclear what happens to Yang and Lal at the end. By the way, there's a great website that does a far better analysis of Alpha Centauri than I can ever do. Hell, I stole a bunch of my ideas from here. https://paeantosmac.wordpress.com/ Click the "First Time Here?" link if you want to start from the beginning. Here's his examination of the Empath guild and all the symbols of the Factions. Check out the comments too. https://paeantosmac.wordpress.com/2015/09/01/secret-project-the-empath-guild/ BearsBearsBears has issued a correction as of 12:38 on Dec 6, 2023 |
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Dec 6, 2023 12:22
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gradenko_2000 posted:It's rather impressive how much of a nothingburger Civilization Beyond Earth ended up being. BearsBearsBears you should do a deep dive into that if you have it Also do Call to Power, both 1 and 2. Pretty sure I played those more than Civilization 3. Also CtP 1 and Civ 3 released around the same time iirc, so those games are completely blended together in my head.
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Dec 6, 2023 12:25
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Civ 3 probably has the worst ICS disease of the entire series, and requires very specific min-maxing strategies at higher levels to overcome the idiosyncrasies of the design as it interacts with the AI bonuses, but I'll always be a fan of how it dealt with combat, and particularly artillery as the best its ever been.
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Dec 6, 2023 12:47
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