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Miftan posted:Your assertion that if Hamas cared about the prisoners' well being they'd just let them go is pretty wild though. If all Hamas wanted was for these people to be comfortable, they wouldn't have kidnapped them in the first place! Also, you can easily turn this argument around and say that Israel is clearly abusing a magnitude more Palestinians that are in Israeli prisons and were basically kidnapped as well. So really we should be pointing this finger at Israel first. What crimes are Hamas charging the 10-month-old baby with? I also fail to see how "Israeli prisons are awful" and "Hamas should let their kidnapping victims go" are mutually exclusive opinions. It's a false dichotomy to say only one side can be committing war crimes at a time, especially when the vast majority of that violence is being perpetrated against civilians and not the people engaged in fighting. Xombie fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Dec 6, 2023 |
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Dec 6, 2023 22:13
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Miftan posted:Sorry, I could have been clearer. I meant that while it's possible that the Israeli hostages are being abused, we've not had any substantive claims beyond 'no food and medicine' which is unavoidable in Gaza right now. I suspect that people who were kidnapped from a modern western country and taken prisoner in a war zone would consider it "physical and psychological torture" even if Hamas just left them in a room with working toilets and enough food, medicine, and water. As a reminder, the person I was responding to was claiming that no released hostages stated that they were “tortured or whatever” (in response to someone saying it’s possible Hamas might be covering up abuses). So them going through your definition of abuse isn’t an argument I was trying to make Kalit fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Dec 6, 2023 |
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Dec 6, 2023 22:30
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Xombie posted:What crimes are Hamas charging the 10-month-old baby with? That 10 month old baby is almost certain to be able to be traded for dozens of Palestinians undergoing an unjust imprisonment and constant physical abuse. If one ignores the ethnicity of those likely to be freed, it strikes me as plainly obvious that the suffering of that baby is outweighed by the suffering of those imprisoned. Like, why should Hamas let there kidnapping victims go? Those victims are the only chance that the victims of Israeli prisons might see the light of day! Like I get the sense that you clearly think that the act of committing harm is far far worse than the inaction of letting those suffering continue to do so. That honestly strikes me as not being that concerned about the real suffering of real people happening this moment in favor of, for lack of a better term, the moral purity of those involved. A big flaming stink fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Dec 6, 2023 |
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Dec 6, 2023 22:38
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The prisoner releases are largely symbolic since Israel can always arrest more Palestinians, including the people it just released. Over 3000 Palestinians have been arrested since October 7th, compared to the ~300 released during the recent ceasefire.
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Dec 6, 2023 22:41
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Do ends justify means? I feel strongly no.
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Dec 6, 2023 22:46
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Irony Be My Shield posted:The prisoner releases are largely symbolic since Israel can always arrest more Palestinians, including the people it just released. Over 3000 Palestinians have been arrested since October 7th, compared to the ~300 released during the recent ceasefire. This is literally the logic of might as well not have any laws because criminals will break laws. "Might as well not try to free those undergoing imprisonment because the genocidal entity will inflict more harm!"
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Dec 6, 2023 22:49
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No. 6 posted:Do ends justify means? I feel strongly no. Cool, then what justifies any action? If you are convinced that no end can justify any means then do you believe all violence cannot be justified and if so violence can be justified then how do you justify laws and their enforcement? When you say this you are, intrinscly, arguing against the idea that doing anything can be done for any reason. "The ends justify the means" has always been a matter of degree not one of complete difference. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Dec 6, 2023 |
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Dec 6, 2023 22:53
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A big flaming stink posted:This is literally the logic of might as well not have any laws because criminals will break laws. You're arguing Hamas should continue to commit war crimes because there is a hypothetical benefit which outweighs the crime in this circumstance. If the benefit never materializes (it won't, Israel will just take other hostages for future hostage trades/because they have a goal of causing terror onto the Palestinians), maybe continuing to commit the war crimes isn't actually worth it. This exact type of cyclical situation is a good chunk of why taking civilians hostage is a war crime.
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Dec 6, 2023 22:55
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A big flaming stink posted:That 10 month old baby is almost certain to be able to be traded for dozens of Palestinians undergoing an unjust imprisonment and constant physical abuse. If one ignores the ethnicity of those likely to be freed, it strikes me as plainly obvious that the suffering of that baby is outweighed by the suffering of those imprisoned. I'm curious if there's some point where you don't feel the ends justify the means. If they roughed the baby up a little and it got the Israelis to move a bit faster, would it be worth it in your mind?
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Dec 6, 2023 22:55
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It appears this baby was killed by Israeli bombs, unless there is another one? And as a reminder, Israel claims it knows with precision who will be killed and the likely “collateral damage”. https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/29/hamas-says-10-month-old-hostage-kfir-bibas-was-killed-in-israeli-bombing
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Dec 6, 2023 23:06
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DeadlyMuffin posted:I'm curious if there's some point where you don't feel the ends justify the means. If they roughed the baby up a little and it got the Israelis to move a bit faster, would it be worth it in your mind? This is literally what the Israelis did when they broke the arms and legs of the kids they were releasing. Stop having fantasies about Hamas torturing babies and examine the real world.
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Dec 6, 2023 23:08
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Miftan posted:Sorry, I could have been clearer. I meant that while it's possible that the Israeli hostages are being abused, we've not had any substantive claims beyond 'no food and medicine' which is unavoidable in Gaza right now. Yes, that's why being held there against your will is abuse. Everyone in Gaza is being abused by the IDF, and anyone who's being forced to stay there by Hamas is also being abused by Hamas, who is depriving them of their right to escape the IDF's genocidal campaign. quote:Your assertion that if Hamas cared about the prisoners' well being they'd just let them go is pretty wild though. If all Hamas wanted was for these people to be comfortable, they wouldn't have kidnapped them in the first place! That's what I've been saying. It's stupid to debate whether Hamas wants these people to suffer, or dislikes their suffering but not enough to release them, because either way their suffering is the only possible outcome of what Hamas is doing. You might as well interrogate whether IDF soldiers feel bad about killing civilians or not (and in fact "shooting and crying" is a common mémoire genre in Israel, soldiers laying out how bad they felt about what they "had to do.") quote:Also, you can easily turn this argument around and say that Israel is clearly abusing a magnitude more Palestinians that are in Israeli prisons and were basically kidnapped as well. So really we should be pointing this finger at Israel first. Yes, exactly. This is logical consistency. The fact that my train of thought includes "Israel must release its captives" - which was morally and politically vital long before Oct 7 and still is - is one sign that it's the correct line of thought. quote:You're just arguing semantics because when everyone is saying "It looks like Hamas is doing the best they can with the hostages and so far there's no substantive evidence to the contrary" everyone but you understands that there's an implict clause afterwards that says "..in the context of being in a war zone and wanting to keep hostages" Do you see how that's a hell of an implicit clause? You might as well say "Joe Biden is doing the most he can to protect Palestinian civilians ... in the context of refusing to admonish or threaten Israel ever." Or "Israel gives its occupied-territories prisoners the best possible legal representation ... in the context of indefinitely detaining them without trial in order to scare and humiliate their communities into obedience." "Wanting to keep hostages" is a war crime being deliberately conducted against children and adult civilians, it's ridiculous to take it for granted or sweep it under the rug. If we're going to talk about how Hamas feels about the suffering of its hostages - and I still don't see why - we at least shouldn't pretend that their detainment is some fixed reality that Hamas has to deal with, instead of a choice Hamas constantly makes in pursuit of its own survival and the freedom of Palestinians. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Dec 6, 2023 |
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Dec 6, 2023 23:11
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Civilized Fishbot posted:The best they could do to protect and care for the hostages would obviously be releasing the hostages so they could escape a horribly impoverished war zone and reunite with their families and caregivers. Obviously they haven't done this. What matters here, practically speaking (by which I mean politically speaking), is not whether hostage-taking is inherently harmful, but whether Hamas has gone out of its way to intentionally abuse and mistreat the hostages beyond the sudden loss of freedom at gunpoint that is inherent in being taken hostage. From a political perspective, "they were starved because Hamas was starving them on purpose to torment them" and "they were starved because Israel decided to deliberately cut the area off from food supplies, knowing full well that the hostages would be affected too" are extremely different. Keep in mind that the Israeli government is catching considerable flak from hostages and their families over a perceived lack of care or concern for getting the hostages back alive and healthy. Irony Be My Shield posted:I'd also note that one of the terms of the ceasefire was allowing the Red Cross in to inspect the conditions for the hostages, and Hamas did not comply with this. It is unclear to me why Hamas would not want them to visit hostages unless they're trying to cover up evidence of abuses they have committed. Is the Red Cross currently saying that Hamas promised to give them access and is refusing to give them that access? I am not seeing that, though probably a large part of that is the fact that the truce is universally described as having "broken down" four or five days ago, and the ICRC has returned to generic calls for cessation of violence and protection of civilians. This appears to be the latest from the ICRC on the Gaza situation: https://www.icrc.org/en/document/israel-and-occupied-territories-president-icrc-arrives-gaza quote:Mirjana Spoljaric, the president of the ICRC, is in Gaza today to advance efforts that alleviate the devastating humanitarian toll the ongoing conflict is taking on civilians While they make clear that the ICRC would like to visit the hostages, they do not appear to be linking that to any truce conditions or claiming that Hamas violated a commitment. Moreover, news reports suggest that the ICRC is in active negotiations with Hamas for hostage access: https://www.timesofisrael.com/visiting-gaza-red-cross-chief-says-suffering-intolerable-icrc-must-see-hostages/ quote:The president of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), Mirjana Spoljaric Egger, is expected to arrive in Egypt and the Gaza Strip today for discussions on allowing Red Cross representatives to access the hostages taken from Israel on October 7 and held by Hamas, according to Hebrew-language media. As for why the negotiations haven't borne fruit yet, the ICRC has kept tight-lipped about that, and I wouldn't expect any details from them, as they keep the details of their negotiations behind the curtains in order to avoid upsetting the negotiations or violating their neutrality. However, I think the mention of the need to "safely carry out this work" is important here. As long as Israel stands ready to bomb Gaza, Hamas cannot ensure safe passage to the ICRC all by themselves. They also need to coordinate with Israel to make sure the ICRC teams don't get bombed mid-visit. And that means Israel needs to be informed of the general timing and route of any visits to the hostages - something that would obviously be of extreme interest to the IDF.
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Dec 6, 2023 23:22
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Yes, exactly. This is logical consistency. The fact that my train of thought includes "Israel must release its captives" - which was morally and politically vital long before Oct 7 and still is - is one sign that it's the correct line of thought. And how will that be achieved??? Like, honestly what point are you actually making? It's idealist in the truest sense, you're completely divorced from reality telling us your wishes and what would be most morally correct by both sides. Who gives a poo poo? What you're saying is literally nonsense. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 6, 2023 23:23
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:And how will that be achieved??? Like, honestly what point are you actually making? It's idealist in the truest sense, you're completely divorced from reality telling us your wishes and what would be most morally correct by both sides. Who gives a poo poo? What you're saying is literally nonsense. Yeah, uh, less harshly, Israel has kept these captives for more than 5 years in some cases. We know with certainty that Israel will not release these prisoners unless coerced to do so. Like I understand the urge to have ideals in terms of ethics, but what prescription can those ethics offer the Palestinians if following them will result in no improvement to their suffering?
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Dec 6, 2023 23:32
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A big flaming stink posted:Yeah, uh, less harshly, Israel has kept these captives for more than 5 years in some cases. We know with certainty that Israel will not release these prisoners unless coerced to do so. Like I understand the urge to have ideals in terms of ethics, but what prescription can those ethics offer the Palestinians if following them will result in no improvement to their suffering? I would go further and say Hamas following those “moral” prescriptions just accelerates the genocide of Palestine.
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Dec 6, 2023 23:39
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Why the gently caress are we going in circles critiquing the methods of the resistance movement of the people being ethnically cleansed by the monstrous, fascist ethnostate? Like, yes, people backed into corners by vastly more powerful and evil foes so bad things as part of their resistance, news at 11. Personally I’m far more annoyed at the people who created the ethnostate then decided to create an open air prison then ethnically cleanse the people within it. But sure, both sides are bad. loving liberal nonsense.
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Dec 6, 2023 23:40
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Jakabite posted:Why the gently caress are we going in circles critiquing the methods of the resistance movement of the people being ethnically cleansed by the monstrous, fascist ethnostate? I don’t think that Hamas should be able to do whatever they want to the civilians in Israel in retaliation of the actions/policies of the government of Israel Kalit fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Dec 6, 2023 |
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Dec 6, 2023 23:48
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:And how will that be achieved??? Like, honestly what point are you actually making? It's idealist in the truest sense, you're completely divorced from reality telling us your wishes and what would be most morally correct by both sides. Who gives a poo poo? What you're saying is literally nonsense. The way it will be achieved is either whatever Hamas is doing - which none of us here can affect, so to discuss it is necessarily wishes and bullshitting - or, less likely, stuff like boycotts, calling your government representatives, protests, donations to the right places, voting the right way. We can discuss those, but anything else is, you're right, basically just some loser's nonsense fantasy or nightmare. Which is what this thread is. There's nothing to be done in this thread except give divorced-from-reality opinions about what's going on and what we wish was going on. This is not where the resistance is being organized. This is only where people come to share their hot takes. The point I'm actually trying to make is "caring about whether Hamas likes or dislikes the suffering of its hostages is idealism, because either way Hamas doesn't have the power to eliminate their suffering short of releasing them altogether." Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Dec 6, 2023 |
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Dec 6, 2023 23:48
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I think it should be remembered the method Hamas has chosen is, in addition to being morally reprehensible, incredibly loving stupid. Israel now has the political will and enough cover in the eyes of its allies to cause far more damage to Gaza than it ever did before and ultimately destroy Hamas, all the while oppressing other Palestinian territories more than ever. Nothing has improved or ever will improve for Palestinians due to October 7th, the only question is how much can the damage caused by Hamas' colossal fuckups be mitigated.
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Dec 6, 2023 23:51
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In a vacuum I'm generally against hostage taking. That said, the situation is a big fat "what did you expect"; if you have a habit of kidnapping children, and the only method you've ever been responsive to for freeing them has been to also kidnap your civilians & trade them, that's going to become the norm de jure. In a sane country, perhaps reforms could come into play where, in exchange for not taking hostages, Israel repeals its insane apartheid laws/stops detaining Palestinians indefinitely/tries them in a neutral civilian court where they have the same rights as Israelis, complete with transparency in sharing evidence with PA and Hamas....You know, poo poo that's expected to happen when a foreign national is arrested. We're pretty loving far from that, though. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Dec 7, 2023 |
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Dec 6, 2023 23:57
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I think it should be remembered the method Hamas has chosen is, in addition to being morally reprehensible, incredibly loving stupid. It freed a lot of Palestinians and secured a ceasefire for the war - these are real material gains. I think killing aand assaulting all those civilians on October 7 was stupid if you evaluate it as a decision, but I don't know that the organization that is Hamas could've stopped its militiamen from doing that - it was probably an unavoidable part of sending hundreds of young men out to violently take revenge on the state that ruined their lives.
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Dec 6, 2023 23:59
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I think it should be remembered the method Hamas has chosen is, in addition to being morally reprehensible, incredibly loving stupid. Israel now has the political will and enough cover in the eyes of its allies to cause far more damage to Gaza than it ever did before and ultimately destroy Hamas, all the while oppressing other Palestinian territories more than ever. Nothing has improved or ever will improve for Palestinians due to October 7th, the only question is how much can the damage caused by Hamas' colossal fuckups be mitigated. Israel has a wall around Gaza, a full blockade, and controls food, fuel, and medicine going into Gaza. Hell, they tried to SELL expired COVID vaccines to Palestinians. Gaza is the world's largest concentration camp. So do tell me, how would you have liked Hamas to fight back against a brutal apartheid regime hellbent on genocide?
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Dec 7, 2023 00:02
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Civilized Fishbot posted:It freed a lot of Palestinians and secured a ceasefire for the war - these are real material gains. Did it free a lot though? I was under the impression that in response to the 7th Israel has taken even more hostages then they had before, certainly they've taken more than they have released, I'm not sure a net gain in free Palestinians happened here. Unless the goal was to get specific ones freed.
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Dec 7, 2023 00:02
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I think it should be remembered the method Hamas has chosen is, in addition to being morally reprehensible, incredibly loving stupid. Israel now has the political will and enough cover in the eyes of its allies to cause far more damage to Gaza than it ever did before and ultimately destroy Hamas, all the while oppressing other Palestinian territories more than ever. Nothing has improved or ever will improve for Palestinians due to October 7th, the only question is how much can the damage caused by Hamas' colossal fuckups be mitigated. I'm sorry, but this is delusional. Israel has failed to achieve any of its military objectives and has lost a huge amount of credibility internationally, both in terms of their sympathetic international image, but also they have shown they are not the superior military power they had pretended. It has propelled the Palestinians back into the consciousness of a new generation of Arabs, and Hamas and allied Palestinian resistance groups have shown how dogshit of a military Israel is. Israel has proven to only have airpower and the nuclear option as significant threats. And as Iran develops domestic missile technology and gets technology transfers from Russia, that airpower gap for regional powers can be significantly reduced.
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Dec 7, 2023 00:08
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Kalit posted:I don’t think that Hamas should be able to do whatever they want to the civilians in Israel in retaliation of the actions/policies of the government of Israel How should Hamas resist the ongoing genocide that would be appropriate to you?
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Dec 7, 2023 00:16
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:This is literally what the Israelis did when they broke the arms and legs of the kids they were releasing. Stop having fantasies about Hamas torturing babies and examine the real world. Yeah that's not what I'm doing at all, and you can go to hell for suggesting it. I'm asking a question of the guy who thinks that the justification for taking 10 months old babies as hostages is "plainly obvious". DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Dec 7, 2023 |
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Dec 7, 2023 00:22
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Judgy Fucker posted:How should Hamas resist the ongoing genocide that would be appropriate to you? Go after military personnel/politicians who are enforcing/enacting said actions/policies.
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Dec 7, 2023 00:24
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Kalit posted:Go after military personnel/politicians who are enforcing/enacting said actions/policies. The music festival on 10/7 had tanks, APCs, and IDF soldiers in full BDUs and weapons. It was clearly a legitimate military target. Also, the reports from that day say that Hamas DID go after the IDF and the IDF blind fired at anything that moved, killing tons of civilians in the process.
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Dec 7, 2023 00:26
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If they had captured a bunch of IDF soldiers without also murdering a shitload of civilians/raping a bunch of women/capturing a bunch of civilians and refusing to let anyone inspect the conditions they're keeping them under then that would've put Israel in a very difficult position.
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Dec 7, 2023 00:27
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Kalit posted:Go after military personnel/politicians who are enforcing/enacting said actions/policies. Considering the asymmetry between Israel and Hamas' capabilities, how do you suggest they do that? With an emphasis on avoiding civilian casualties, of course.
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Dec 7, 2023 00:28
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Irony Be My Shield posted:If they had captured a bunch of IDF soldiers without also murdering a shitload of civilians/raping a bunch of women/capturing a bunch of civilians and refusing to let anyone inspect the conditions they're keeping them under then that would've put Israel in a very difficult position. That's pretty much it. Optics extremely matter in the end when you're talking about support or not getting support. Soldiers are considered fair game for the same reasons that kids and babies aren't.
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Dec 7, 2023 00:29
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Irony Be My Shield posted:If they had captured a bunch of IDF soldiers without also murdering a shitload of civilians/raping a bunch of women/capturing a bunch of civilians and refusing to let anyone inspect the conditions they're keeping them under then that would've put Israel in a very difficult position. part of me thinks Israel's response to blow up everything would have been largely the same regardless of how humanely Hamas approached the situation
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Dec 7, 2023 00:29
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Kalit posted:I don’t think that Hamas should be able to do whatever they want to the civilians in Israel in retaliation of the actions/policies of the government of Israel Nor do I, but I think it’s very easy to sit and criticise the ethical choices of a people engaged in an incredibly asymmetric war for the survival of their whole society.
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Dec 7, 2023 00:33
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Judgy Fucker posted:Considering the asymmetry between Israel and Hamas' capabilities, how do you suggest they do that? With an emphasis on avoiding civilian casualties, of course. This is a loaded question, but let me try and assume good faith and answer: when taking captives, take the ones who are adults, and preferably the ones wearing uniforms. Jakabite posted:Nor do I, but I think it’s very easy to sit and criticise the ethical choices of a people engaged in an incredibly asymmetric war for the survival of their whole society. I completely agree with this. What got my hackles up was someone arguing that taking a 10 month old was a good move, actually. DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Dec 7, 2023 |
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Dec 7, 2023 00:33
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I think it should be remembered the method Hamas has chosen is, in addition to being morally reprehensible, incredibly loving stupid. Israel now has the political will and enough cover in the eyes of its allies to cause far more damage to Gaza than it ever did before and ultimately destroy Hamas, all the while oppressing other Palestinian territories more than ever. Nothing has improved or ever will improve for Palestinians due to October 7th, the only question is how much can the damage caused by Hamas' colossal fuckups be mitigated. For someone with a luffy avatar you sure do love the world government (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 7, 2023 00:34
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Toxic Mental posted:That's pretty much it. Optics extremely matter in the end when you're talking about support or not getting support. Soldiers are considered fair game for the same reasons that kids and babies aren't. Every resistance movement has killed civilians. IRA, ANC, American Revolution, etc.
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Dec 7, 2023 00:36
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alf_pogs posted:part of me thinks Israel's response to blow up everything would have been largely the same regardless of how humanely Hamas approached the situation All of me thinks so. Razing Gaza to the ground, as they are in the process of doing, is utterly counterproductive to achieving the aim of "destroying Hamas." All it does is engender more hatred and degrade Israel's international standing. Genocide was always the goal. Besides, it looks more and more like the Israeli state was well aware of what Hamas was planning and did nothing. Why? a casus belli. DeadlyMuffin posted:This is a loaded question, but let me try and assume good faith and answer: when taking captives, take the ones who are adults, and preferably the ones wearing uniforms. What is loaded about it? Kalit has opinions on how Hamas should resist Israel's genocide, I'm trying to tease out exactly how they should go about doing it.
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Dec 7, 2023 00:38
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Irony Be My Shield posted:If they had captured a bunch of IDF soldiers without also murdering a shitload of civilians/raping a bunch of women/capturing a bunch of civilians and refusing to let anyone inspect the conditions they're keeping them under then that would've put Israel in a very difficult position. There's so far been no conclusive evidence of rape presented and Israel is attempting to discredit the UN committee tasked with investigating the claims. Kalit posted:Tough poo poo then. If they can't go after military personnel/politicians who are doing the enacting/enforcing (for whatever reason you're insinuating), they have absolutely zero chance of making a change by going after random civilians. It'll just give said politicians an even more convenient excuse to enact a faster genocide, as we see what's currently happening. They did capture high ranking military personne thoughl? 
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Dec 7, 2023 00:42
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Judgy Fucker posted:Considering the asymmetry between Israel and Hamas' capabilities, how do you suggest they do that? With an emphasis on avoiding civilian casualties, of course. Tough poo poo then. If they can't go after military personnel/politicians who are doing the enacting/enforcing (for whatever reason you're insinuating), they have absolutely zero chance of making a change by going after random civilians. It'll just give said politicians an even more convenient excuse to enact a faster genocide, as we see what's currently happening.
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Dec 7, 2023 00:42
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