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Paladinus posted:You were referencing official numbers, so I cited official numbers. The lol was less at you for citing them than the Israelis for making the claim. I wouldn't be able to guess how many Hamas fighters have been killed, but I'd have to estimate at the very least 5-600 IDF have been killed during the ground invasion. Hamas claimed 60 killed in one ambush alone two or three days ago. The fact that Israel is claiming 5000 resistance fighters killed is laughable though given that would amount to every adult male killed in Gaza having been part of the military resistance.
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Dec 7, 2023 03:31
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Kalit posted:https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67629181 I have directly addressed this article in a previous post. I have also repeatedly asked for independently verified sources not from Israel and you quote sources that are provided from Israel. Repeatedly posting the same article that I have addressed is not going to change anything. Please read the thread! FlapYoJacks fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Dec 7, 2023 |
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Dec 7, 2023 03:35
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Kalit posted:https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67629181 From the article: quote:The BBC has not been able to independently verify this account, and Israeli media reports have questioned some testimony from volunteers working in the traumatic aftermath of the Hamas attacks. That article is just Israeli government officials saying things. The article also says the police haven't interviewed any of the survivors 2 months later. It's all second, third hand accounts. It also has a guest appearance by Israel's Women's Empowerment Minister, May Golan, who is on video at a rally talking about how racist she is and that she's proud of racist she is.
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Dec 7, 2023 03:40
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FlapYoJacks posted:I have directly addressed this article in a previous post. I have also repeatedly asked for independently verified sources not from Israel and you quote sources that are provided from Israel. Repeatedly posting the same article that I have addressed is not going to change anything. Please read the thread! FlapYoJacks posted:And these photos have been verified they are from the day of the attack at the correct location and are actual documented victims of the attack by whom? Because again, if those photos were provided by Israeli police or the IDF they are immediately suspect unless independently verified by a neutral third party. Preferably at least two. quote:Video testimony of an eyewitness at the Nova music festival, shown to journalists by Israeli police, detailed the gang rape, mutilation and execution of one victim. If seeing video with one's own eye isn't it being "independently verified", how does one "independently verify" this video?
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Dec 7, 2023 03:42
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:The lol was less at you for citing them than the Israelis for making the claim. I wouldn't be able to guess how many Hamas fighters have been killed, but I'd have to estimate at the very least 5-600 IDF have been killed during the ground invasion. Hamas claimed 60 killed in one ambush alone two or three days ago. The fact that Israel is claiming 5000 resistance fighters killed is laughable though given that would amount to every adult male killed in Gaza having been part of the military resistance. So you believe Hamas' claims out of hand because why exactly? I don't trust Israeli numbers on killed Hamas militants, because it's obvious propaganda, and yes, they likely just count any adult male. The official numbers on Israeli casualties, however, haven't been disputed by anyone so far. In current political climate, relatives of soldiers would be the first to raise concerns over hundreds of soldiers disappearing without a trace. That, as far as I know, hasn't happened.
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Dec 7, 2023 03:45
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Kalit posted:If seeing video with one's own eye isn't it being "independently verified", how does one "independently verify" this video? By actually doing journalism and investigating whether the footage is real, is in the correct location, at the right time, is what's being depicted actually what's occurring or is there another context for the footage etc. Paladinus posted:So you believe Hamas' claims out of hand because why exactly? I don't trust Israeli numbers on killed Hamas militants, because it's obvious propaganda, and yes, they likely just count any adult male. The official numbers on Israeli casualties, however, haven't been disputed by anyone so far. In current political climate, relatives of soldiers would be the first to raise concerns over hundreds of soldiers disappearing without a trace. That, as far as I know, hasn't happened. They've been slow-rolling the announcement of deaths from the 7th of October for the past 2 months. They could easily hide hundreds of extra deaths by just telling the family and never counting it in their official casualty numbers. BrutalistMcDonalds posted:Hamas says a lot of stuff. Hamas just posted footage of them with a periscope camera in the middle of an IDF camp. Pointing an RPG at a building and pulling the trigger is not wildly out of the realm of possibility. There's finally footage of a burning Merkava that you guys were seemingly desperate to believe was not possible with Hamas' capabilities. Kchama posted:Having the capacity to spy on IDF doesn't confirm they killed 60 dudes, at once or not. It means they're capable of approaching large bodies of IDF soldiers at rest without being spotted, so yes it absolutely does support that it's a possibility. WhiskeyWhiskers fucked around with this message at 03:56 on Dec 7, 2023 |
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Dec 7, 2023 03:45
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Hamas claimed 60 killed in one ambush alone two or three days ago.
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Dec 7, 2023 03:46
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There's a dude turkey peaking in an Israeli camp and multiple guys just running up and merking tanks, I'm buying high numbers from Hamas.
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Dec 7, 2023 03:51
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:By actually doing journalism and investigating whether the footage is real, is in the correct location, at the right time, is what's being depicted actually what's occurring or is there another context for the footage etc. Having the capacity to spy on IDF doesn't confirm they killed 60 dudes, at once or not.
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Dec 7, 2023 03:54
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FlapYoJacks posted:I have directly addressed this article in a previous post. I have also repeatedly asked for independently verified sources not from Israel and you quote sources that are provided from Israel. Repeatedly posting the same article that I have addressed is not going to change anything. Please read the thread! Again: quote:Videos of naked and bloodied women filmed by Hamas on the day of the attack, and photographs of bodies taken at the sites afterwards, suggest that women were sexually targeted by their attackers They are referring to videos *filmed by Hamas*. The gall of accusing people of not reading the thread when you clearly aren't reading it yourself is pretty amazing.
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Dec 7, 2023 04:07
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Again: And again, the videos are presented by Israel and they are the ones saying it was video taped by Hamas. Has that been independently verified as true?
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Dec 7, 2023 04:09
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Grem posted:There's a dude turkey peaking in an Israeli camp and multiple guys just running up and merking tanks, I'm buying high numbers from Hamas. To my knowledge, there is not a single photo of a destroyed Israeli tank in Gaza (there are at least two visually confirmed destroyed bulldozers, one APC, and at least three tanks that Israel confirmed were destroyed but there was no visual confirmation from Hamas). If Hamas was operating freely within Gaza, as it's often claimed, they wouldn't just have videos of shooting at tanks, but also at least photos of those tanks destroyed and of Israeli soldiers dead or captured. Again, there is nothing that would suggest that there are literally hundreds of unaccounted dead Israeli soldiers that Israel is hiding. I'm sure if there was any evidence of that news outlets like Al-Jazeera would have been already reported on that, and I can't find any suggestion that there is doubt in Israeli official numbers from any respectable source. WhiskeyWhiskers posted:They've been slow-rolling the announcement of deaths from the 7th of October for the past 2 months. They could easily hide hundreds of extra deaths by just telling the family and never counting it in their official casualty numbers. So it's just wild speculation on your part then? If they told families, there'd at least be social media posts, something. Netantahu's government is in no state to organise a huge coverup like that. WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Hamas just posted footage of them with a periscope camera in the middle of an IDF camp. Pointing an RPG at a building and pulling the trigger is not wildly out of the realm of possibility. Is it not out of the real of possibility or is it something that actually really happened? WhiskeyWhiskers posted:There's finally footage of a burning Merkava that you guys were seemingly desperate to believe was not possible with Hamas' capabilities. Is there really? Has the footage been independently verified by any independent news outlets yet? There were burning Merkavas on Oct 7, so could be old footage. Paladinus fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Dec 7, 2023 |
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Dec 7, 2023 04:09
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Again: The consistent position here is that videos of these allegations can't be independently verified, regardless of which side is claimed to have shot them. As a relevant example, if hamas videos are true without verification than Israel has lost 385 tanks
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Dec 7, 2023 04:16
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FlapYoJacks posted:And again, the videos are presented by Israel and they are the ones saying it was video taped by Hamas. Has that been independently verified as true? This rejection of the current evidence that exists is literally how rape culture is perpetuated. You should really take a step back and believe groups like UN Women. Stop believing that a group who has no problem slaughtering hundreds of civilians and taking hundreds of people hostage would draw a moral line at raping women. Kalit fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Dec 7, 2023 |
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Dec 7, 2023 04:16
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National Parks posted:The consistent position here is that videos of these allegations can't be independently verified, regardless of which side is claimed to have shot them. The link I posted has a third party (the BBC) saying that a Hamas video showed evidence of sexual assault. 1. They didn't say this video came via Israeli authorities 2. I have a hard time believing that Hamas would insert evidence of sexual assault that didn't happen. Claiming they blew up 385 tanks served their purposes. Claiming they committed sexual assault doesn't. So the responses to this just read like abject denial in the face of the evidence they asked for.
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Dec 7, 2023 04:25
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DeadlyMuffin posted:The link I posted has a third party (the BBC) saying that a Hamas video showed evidence of sexual assault. How else would they have procured the video? If that video had been released anywhere else, it would be all over the internet. The previous paragraph says: quote:Video testimony of an eyewitness at the Nova music festival, shown to journalists by Israeli police So it’s logical to think the very next paragraph talking about videos would also be talking about videos provided by the Israeli police.
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Dec 7, 2023 04:31
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Kalit posted:If seeing video with one's own eye isn't it being "independently verified", how does one "independently verify" this video? I feel like it's worth mentioning the abstraction here; it's a video, but the video is of a testimony, from an eyewitness, who claims that happened. Normally that's fine, eyewitnesses are used all the time, but it's a bit more of a sticky issue here because of ZAKA, the response team that first started filming eyewitness testimonies. ZAKA was founded by an ultra-orthodox 'activist' (who also committed sexual abuse of minors, but that's not important here), and they were responsible for the notorious 'beheaded babies' testimony, which gained infamy for the lack of verification, lack of beheaded babies, and culminated in Israel releasing an unrelated picture of a burnt baby. Since this evidence was behind-closed-doors we don't know if they belong to ZAKA, but testimonies from Israeli response teams without independent verification should probably be taken with a grain of salt, for the moment. Again, for the record, I don't doubt that rapes happened.
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Dec 7, 2023 04:35
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Irony Be My Shield posted:While Israel did prematurely and unfairly condemn that committee they did ultimately co-operate, and the committee condemned Hamas sexual violence after Israel presented unequivocal evidence of rape. e: both of the links below of course contain horribly triggering descriptions. I’m not sure you read this article because it is interviewing a woman whose goal is to undermine the U.N. for asking for proof. quote:The next target is Reem Alsalem, a special rapporteur at the UN Human Rights Council, whose role is to monitor whether member states meet the international standards for protecting women against violence. “I received an email in which she demanded to see ‘proof’ for our accusations,” Elkayam-Levy says. “She is a rapporteur of Jordanian-Palestinian background who recently released a statement describing October 7 as the day Israel launched a genocide. Meaning, this isn’t just silence, it’s the appropriation of the events of October 7 to Palestinian suffering. It’s a totally insane move in my view. I don’t love the word ‘campaign,’ but our intention is to expose the world to a figure who is just abusing – I have no other word for it – global public funds.”
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Dec 7, 2023 04:36
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FlapYoJacks posted:How else would they have procured the video? If that video had been released anywhere else, it would be all over the internet. The previous paragraph says: Why is it logical to apply the description of one video to another video that doesn't have that description? The video from the police is the video of the eyewitness testimony.
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Dec 7, 2023 04:37
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Why is it logical to apply the description of one video to another video that doesn't have that description? See the first paragraph of my post? Do you honestly believe that the video supposedly filmed by Hamas, has somehow been viewed by huge multimedia conglomerates but hasn’t somehow been spread to every corner of the internet? FlapYoJacks fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Dec 7, 2023 |
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Dec 7, 2023 04:41
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DeadlyMuffin posted:The link I posted has a third party (the BBC) saying that a Hamas video showed evidence of sexual assault. Multiple posters have outlined the problems with the sources being provided. (Especially that one). If you can't move past that source and provide more than you have arrived at an impase. The reason people are pushing back against these sources is they are being used to justify the genocide of the people of Gaza, not because they are in denial about the reality of sexual assault against women all over the world. I watched a video today of an Israeli soldier rumaging through the drawers of an abandoned house, finding a package of lingere, and gleefully describing how he always knew Arab women were totally sluts. I will accept the allegations of mass rapes if it turns out there is anything to substantiate them. But the it remains that today, 2 months after october 7th, there just isn't, and the evidence I do see points a coordinated effort by the Israeli government and US state department to dehumanize and justify the continuation of an immoral war against Palestinian civilians. National Parks fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Dec 7, 2023 |
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Dec 7, 2023 04:46
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National Parks posted:Multiple posters have outlined the problems with the sources being provided. (Especially that one). If you can't move past that source and provide more than you have arrived at an impase. No one here is doing this. Israel shouldn't be committing a genocide of Palestine. But that doesn't mean that I have to believe that Hamas aren't [also] evil and wouldn't dare rape women. Kalit fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Dec 7, 2023 |
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Dec 7, 2023 04:50
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Kalit posted:No one here is doing this. Israel shouldn't be committing a genocide of Palestine. But that doesn't mean that I have to believe that Hamas aren't [also] evil and wouldn't dare rape women. I'm not saying people here are doing this I'm saying The Israeli government and the US state department are doing this.
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Dec 7, 2023 05:00
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https://twitter.com/BirzeitU/status/1732478937152778716 Boy this seems like another good military target.
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Dec 7, 2023 05:12
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RC Cola posted:https://twitter.com/BirzeitU/status/1732478937152778716 That's a really awful thing Israel did there, however I question the wording of "executing" and "all life forms" there....
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Dec 7, 2023 05:28
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National Parks posted:Multiple posters have outlined the problems with the sources being provided. (Especially that one). If you can't move past that source and provide more than you have arrived at an impase. per the times of israel, the idf has put out a statement asking their own government, the american government and the hasbara korps to knock it off with all of their insane rhetoric about sexual violence. 'inaccurate' and 'irresponsible' were the specific terms used. make of that what you will.
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Dec 7, 2023 05:36
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boo boo bear posted:per the times of israel, the idf has put out a statement asking their own government, the american government and the hasbara korps to knock it off with all of their insane rhetoric about sexual violence. 'inaccurate' and 'irresponsible' were the specific terms used. exact same walkback we got with the beheaded babies story
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Dec 7, 2023 05:40
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National Parks posted:I'm not saying people here are doing this I'm saying The Israeli government and the US state department are doing this. The sources I have seen posted have been the BBC and UN Women, not the Israeli government or the US state department. National Parks posted:The reason people are pushing back against these sources is they are being used to justify the genocide of the people of Gaza, not because they are in denial about the reality of sexual assault against women all over the world. If the reason people are pushing back is not because of the truth of what actually happened, but because Israel is doing genocide, it does clarify things. I do think you are essentially saying out loud that this discussion is not in good faith. Kalit posted:No one here is doing this. Thank you for explaining.. But that doesn't mean that I have to believe that Hamas aren't [also] evil and wouldn't dare rape women. I think Kalit nails the point here: you do not have to ignore evidence to the point of ridiculousness (like claiming that the description of one video applies to another, as FlapYoJacks did) in order to think Israel shouldn't be doing genocide in Gaza. Israel shouldn't be doing genocide in Gaza. Hamas fighters shouldn't be commiting rape. The genocide is far worse than rapes. One does not excuse the other. boo boo bear posted:per the times of israel, the idf has put out a statement asking their own government, the american government and the hasbara korps to knock it off with all of their insane rhetoric about sexual violence. 'inaccurate' and 'irresponsible' were the specific terms used. Source this please. I couldn't find it. 
DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 05:47 on Dec 7, 2023 |
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Dec 7, 2023 05:43
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DeadlyMuffin posted:The sources I have seen posted have been the BBC and UN Women, not the Israeli government or the US state department. The BBC is quoting government officials and police in the article. They are literaly just reporting what the Israeli government is telling them. This is so loving circular, post new sources to back up the claims, don't keep using the same ones people are disputing. quote:If the reason people are pushing back is not because of the truth of what actually happened, but because Israel is doing genocide, it does clarify things. I do think you are essentially saying out loud that this discussion is not in good faith. quote:Israel shouldn't be doing genocide in Gaza. Hamas fighters shouldn't be commiting rape. The genocide is far worse than rapes. One does not excuse the other. The evidence that there were mass rapes on october 7 is in dispute. The Israelis are asserting that there was widespread, systemic rapes occurring on October 7th, which they have provided almost no evidence of, and all that keeps getting posted about it is BBC articles uncritically reporting quotes from Israel, or that UN Women put out a statement saying "rape is bad and we will investigate". (Of course rape is bad but thats not evidence)
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Dec 7, 2023 07:35
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Today I saw someone online argue that what Israel has been doing can't be called genocide because Palestinian population has more than doubled in the past century and I wanted to catapult myself out into space.
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Dec 7, 2023 07:48
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DeadlyMuffin posted:
your googling sucks dude https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-appears-to-push-back-on-irresponsible-us-claim-hamas-refusing-to-release-raped-hostages (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 7, 2023 07:52
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National Parks posted:This is scrambling up what I said and removing the context of my entire post. You don't get to unilaterally assert truth when we are having a discussion of the validity of the claims. Why? You've already said that the reason people are challenging the validity is because Israel is doing genocide. I haven't seen them disputed in a way that I think is valid. If you want to convince me, make a better argument. National Parks posted:Israel IS committing a genocide in Gaza. I could post dozens of articles about Israeli cabinet members talking about how they are going to kill every Palestinian, about how they are deliberately targeting schools and hospitals, about how many journalists they have murdered, or about how the IDF are about to start flooding all the aquifers under Gaza with loving seawater. Yes. I know. It's hosed up and should never happen. It also doesn't make accounts of sexual violence invalid. Mia Wasikowska posted:your googling sucks dude https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-appears-to-push-back-on-irresponsible-us-claim-hamas-refusing-to-release-raped-hostages Thank you. I made the mistake of going to the source named and searching the term mentioned rather than googling it. It also doesn't say what was claimed. Here it is in its entirety: quote:The Israel Defense Forces says public discussions about the state of captives held in Gaza has moved into reckless territory, urging those responsible to knock it off. Here's the claim: boo boo bear posted:per the times of israel, the idf has put out a statement asking their own government, the american government and the hasbara korps to knock it off with all of their insane rhetoric about sexual violence. 'inaccurate' and 'irresponsible' were the specific terms used. The Times of Israel note is specifically about the conditions of hostages. What we were discussing was the attack on 10/7. I don't see how it's relevant.
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Dec 7, 2023 08:38
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DeadlyMuffin posted:The sources I have seen posted have been the BBC and UN Women, not the Israeli government or the US state department. https://x.com/mylordbebo/status/1731796422897377616?s=46&t=prPdvwNKek6G5lIo0cy9OA https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-appears-to-push-back-on-irresponsible-us-claim-hamas-refusing-to-release-raped-hostages/ https://apnews.com/article/sexual-a...ights%20Office. quote:The Office of the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights said it requested access to Israel and the Palestinian territories to allow it to collect information from the events that took place on Oct. 7 and 8, and since then, but Israel has not responded to its requests, said Ravina Shamdasani, spokesperson for the U.N. Human Rights Office. Israel forces every government body to say Hamas raped people then once the investigations try happening get told they’re all antisemitic Hamas lovers, while still running the stories everywhere and forcing Biden to say it too. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 7, 2023 13:59
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Why? You've already said that the reason people are challenging the validity is because Israel is doing genocide. People are challenging the claims because State actors are using the claims as justification to continue doing a genocide, and other people are accepting these claims without evidence. I want to be very clear here that I am not discounting these claims because Israel is a colonial apartheid state. It's because there is a clear agenda being pushed here to dehuminize Palestinians and continue a genocide by making sensational claims. quote:Yes. I know. It's hosed up and should never happen. It also doesn't make accounts of sexual violence invalid. quote:The Times of Israel note is specifically about the conditions of hostages. What we were discussing was the attack on 10/7. I don't see how it's relevant.
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Dec 7, 2023 15:31
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Kalit posted:This rejection of the current evidence that exists is literally how rape culture is perpetuated. No, those are valid questions that need to be addressed when Israel is using their claims to justify their genocide.
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Dec 7, 2023 16:01
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Can someone point me towards some sources, or explain to me, about how some Jews, particularly Ashkenazi Jews, view themselves as "indigenous" to Israel? I know so many Ashkenazi Jews whose families trace back generations into Russia and Poland, without even a tiny drop of Arabic blood, or blood from outside Europe for that matter, who claim that this Israel/Palestine issue is an issue of indigenous people (the Jews) reclaiming their land (Israel) from Palestinians (the colonizers), and it really just blows my mind.
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Dec 7, 2023 16:02
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Verisimilidude posted:Can someone point me towards some sources, or explain to me, about how some Jews, particularly Ashkenazi Jews, view themselves as "indigenous" to Israel? I know so many Ashkenazi Jews whose families trace back generations into Russia and Poland, without even a tiny drop of Arabic blood, or blood from outside Europe for that matter, who claim that this Israel/Palestine issue is an issue of indigenous people (the Jews) reclaiming their land (Israel) from Palestinians (the colonizers), and it really just blows my mind. 
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Dec 7, 2023 16:04
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Kalit posted:This rejection of the current evidence that exists is literally how rape culture is perpetuated. That UN Women link just calls for an investigation which Israel rejected. Israel sure doesn’t want to to have an independent investigation into October 7th for some reason.
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Dec 7, 2023 16:06
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Verisimilidude posted:Can someone point me towards some sources, or explain to me, about how some Jews, particularly Ashkenazi Jews, view themselves as "indigenous" to Israel? I know so many Ashkenazi Jews whose families trace back generations into Russia and Poland, without even a tiny drop of Arabic blood, or blood from outside Europe for that matter, who claim that this Israel/Palestine issue is an issue of indigenous people (the Jews) reclaiming their land (Israel) from Palestinians (the colonizers), and it really just blows my mind. Im fairly certain this is entirely a religious justification
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Dec 7, 2023 16:07
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Mean Baby posted:That UN Women link just calls for an investigation which Israel rejected. They firmly believe sexual assaults by Hamas personnel was committed: quote:We unequivocally condemn the brutal attacks by Hamas on Israel on 7 October. We are alarmed by the numerous accounts of gender-based atrocities and sexual violence during those attacks. The investigation they call for is for the prosecution of individuals who committed sexual assaults (on any side): quote:This is why we have called for all accounts of gender-based violence to be duly investigated and prosecuted, with the rights of the victim at the core. Kalit fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Dec 7, 2023 |
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Dec 7, 2023 16:12
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