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Yeah, I am sympathetic about how gameplay balancing and fixing can be tremendously more complicated than they seem. However, there was a lot of a low hanging fruit in the crusade mode. Just fixing that recruit problem so you didn't just fight every battle with a death archer stack would've been a good start. As it is after my first couple playthroughs I just disabled the whole mess. WoTR was still my third most played game ever (behind Rimworld and BG3 which both have more idle time) so they did a lot right. I haven't even gotten around to checking out the later dlc since this year has been so absurd with releases.
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Dec 7, 2023 04:16
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SpaceDrake posted:More to the point, like a lot of things born in its era, Priestly's original WH40K Rogue Trader had a lot of satire of Thatcherite Britain. The original, original depiction of Space Marines was Just Cops. They were Thatcher-era cops, Orks were soccer hooligans, Eldar were metal punks (and, helmless, looked the part), et cetera. There were plenty of other influences in the blender (the original original original idea had been an RPG much closer to what this very game and the Rogue Trader TT of 2008 was) but the vein of unsubtle mockery of the direction Thatcherite Britain seemed to be trending in was there from the start. (The 'Nids and Genestealers are a weird example, having come along a bit later in development of the line; the Tyranids have always just been classic Bug War aliens, but the early Genestealer Cults were really unsubtle parodies of 80s/early 90s American televangelism, which was a somewhat different phenomenon from expressions of that grift that Britain and wider Europe saw. The OG Cults had the leaders rolling around in barely-disguised Rolls Royces, for example, if I'm remembering this right.) Yeah all of this can't be emphasized enough. When people talk about "Warhammer 40k is satire" ehhhh not really, not since the 80s. There have been satirical ELEMENTS, but by and large, for a very long time, you are usually supposed to root for and enjoy the victories of the Space Marines and to a lesser degree the Imperium in most public facing 40k media. That's not to say satire is totally absent, but I don't think satire can ever be effective in 40k except to someone who would have agreed with the satire regardless. Rule of cool and satire are incompatible. You are supposed to enjoy playing Space Marines, which is to say, you are supposed to enjoy playing as fascists. You are supposed to have fun with your particular bespoke army mans, and that means inevitably the setting is going to spend a lot of time portraying some of the worst motherfuckers imaginable in a heroic light. If only because the alternative is worse. It's the no such thing as an anti-war war film problem. There's no real getting around it.
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Dec 7, 2023 04:29
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Captain Oblivious posted:Yeah all of this can't be emphasized enough. When people talk about "Warhammer 40k is satire" ehhhh not really, not since the 80s. There have been satirical ELEMENTS, but by and large, for a very long time, you are usually supposed to root for and enjoy the victories of the Space Marines and to a lesser degree the Imperium in most public facing 40k media. That's not to say satire is totally absent, but I don't think satire can ever be effective in 40k except to someone who would have agreed with the satire regardless. Rule of cool and satire are incompatible. You are supposed to enjoy playing Space Marines, which is to say, you are supposed to enjoy playing as fascists. You are supposed to have fun with your particular bespoke army mans, and that means inevitably the setting is going to spend a lot of time portraying some of the worst motherfuckers imaginable in a heroic light. If only because the alternative is worse. You can look at it from the angle that at no point is anything about the Imperium's actual governing systems shown to be beneficial or even functional. It's a decaying clusterfuck with no effective central authority, and the people you're expected to root for are the people who are trying to save lives and do the best they can against the backdrop of the long, painful collapse of a fascist system. The system itself, and the people who maintain it, are almost always presented as at best obstructive and more often corrupt, stupid and evil, with any positive outcomes happening in spite of them. When the writers actually get the idea, anyway.
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Dec 7, 2023 05:05
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cock hero flux posted:You can look at it from the angle that at no point is anything about the Imperium's actual governing systems shown to be beneficial or even functional. It's a decaying clusterfuck with no effective central authority, and the people you're expected to root for are the people who are trying to save lives and do the best they can against the backdrop of the long, painful collapse of a fascist system. The system itself, and the people who maintain it, are almost always presented as at best obstructive and more often corrupt, stupid and evil, with any positive outcomes happening in spite of them. When the writers actually get the idea, anyway. Yeah, I'm with you here. I think the key to showing off just how wretched the Imperium is while also showcasing the models you want to sell as awesome is to portray the system itself as the issue. That no matter how courageous your soldiers or noble their sacrifice, the grinding machine of the Imperium will ultimately render them meaningless. That way you can still root for your favourite factions while shaking your fist at the real villain of the setting- namely, the way things are run. Anyway, to get back to the thread topic: 
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Dec 7, 2023 06:32
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toasterwarrior posted:Honestly it's extremely about corruption stuff and yet somehow far more intelligent with it than Blizzard corruption Because it's not about corruption but extremism. Chaos is not "evil", it just paints in one color. So Khorne wants you to kill and kill and kill, because he is conflict and can't be anything else. Tzeentch needs constant schemes and plots and plans because he's change, and nothing can stay the same. And so forth and so on. That's the whole thing with the Imperium as Thatcher's Britain. It's satire of 'current' extremism by making it even more extreme, so you go "Man isn't this silly and stupid?" and are inspired to look around as it says "Yes, yes this very much is stupid.". Now of course the setting kind of grew beyond that, but that's what the roots of everything that followed are. Satire of extremism. Chaos is sum total of sentient experience, but any given force in it lacks any complexity. It's just that one drive, forever. The Imperium is what the end of the "Hard people making hard decisions" nonsense leads to, as well as the end state of unchecked belief. God is the State, and God is dead. And you will follow the State in His name, straight into the grave.
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Dec 7, 2023 07:22
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Chaos is also literal and not a type of alignment choice. All factions of chaos are constantly warring with each other because it's hardwired into their existence. Their way is the only correct way, so Nurgle is going to infect Khorne berserkers who are going to kill Slaneeshi succubi to add more skulls while Tzeentch daemons will ally with and betray anyone they feel like. The only time they cooperate is for something like a Black Crusade where they all agree to start attacking the Imperium at once and only because all 4 gods agree on the leader, Abbadon.
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Dec 7, 2023 07:57
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pentyne posted:Weirdly enough 40k as a brand is now wildly unfriendly to the casual fascist and after a deluge of hate for some minor pride social media post the compnay basically said "lol get hosed" to the people mad about wokeness and gay rights. it would be more encouraging if this game's gay romance options weren't the slimmest pickings imaginable
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Dec 7, 2023 08:09
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Blockhouse posted:it would be more encouraging if this game's gay romance options weren't the slimmest pickings imaginable It’s 40k dude I will be shocked it every single romance doesn’t trainwreck somehow
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Dec 7, 2023 08:22
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This game has romance options?? It's 40k, humans are grown in vats and sexual release is achieved strictly through bloodshed
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Dec 7, 2023 08:33
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Mechafunkzilla posted:This game has romance options?? It's 40k, humans are grown in vats and sexual release is achieved strictly through bloodshed The horror of, for example, Krieg, is not that they are an army of clones seeking absolution in death for an ancient sin they had nothing to do with. The horror is that the vast majority of them aren't, and this is just what their culture of obligate, glorified martyrdom does to them.
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Dec 7, 2023 08:39
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Captain Oblivious posted:Yeah all of this can't be emphasized enough. When people talk about "Warhammer 40k is satire" ehhhh not really, not since the 80s. There have been satirical ELEMENTS, but by and large, for a very long time, you are usually supposed to root for and enjoy the victories of the Space Marines and to a lesser degree the Imperium in most public facing 40k media. That's not to say satire is totally absent, but I don't think satire can ever be effective in 40k except to someone who would have agreed with the satire regardless. Rule of cool and satire are incompatible. You are supposed to enjoy playing Space Marines, which is to say, you are supposed to enjoy playing as fascists. You are supposed to have fun with your particular bespoke army mans, and that means inevitably the setting is going to spend a lot of time portraying some of the worst motherfuckers imaginable in a heroic light. If only because the alternative is worse. I’ve started doing what I call the servitor test: if you could get through an entire novel without realizing that “servitor” does not quite mean “robot,” then the author is selling plastic statues instead of engaging with the setting honestly. This does not apply to servitors aboard spaceships, who all exist to die horribly in warp-related incidents.
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Dec 7, 2023 08:46
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Mechafunkzilla posted:This game has romance options?? It's 40k, humans are grown in vats and sexual release is achieved strictly through bloodshed Sure but you're not playing as a normie, you're playing as a Rogue Trader, one of the untouchable billionaire rock stars of the setting that roll around in fleets of warships that can make even the Inquisition blink.
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Dec 7, 2023 09:10
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Captain Oblivious posted:It’s 40k dude I will be shocked it every single romance doesn’t trainwreck somehow I am so, so, so eager to see what kind of absolute blazing trainwreck you end up with in the Heinrix romance as a kind, iconoclastic fellow psyker.
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Dec 7, 2023 09:18
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Dec 7, 2023 09:21
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I hope we can give the elves to Slaanesh and the then some mutated Slaanesh monster companions in exchange.
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Dec 7, 2023 09:56
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pentyne posted:Weirdly enough 40k as a brand is now wildly unfriendly to the casual fascist and after a deluge of hate for some minor pride social media post the compnay basically said "lol get hosed" to the people mad about wokeness and gay rights. People still cosplay as Nazis at 40k Tournaments. Not space Nazis, literal ones.
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Dec 7, 2023 10:10
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SpaceDrake posted:I am so, so, so eager to see what kind of absolute blazing trainwreck you end up with in the Heinrix romance as a kind, iconoclastic fellow psyker. I’m all but convinced Cassia is going to be a Camellia level trap of some kind.
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Dec 7, 2023 10:55
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I fully intend to base my captain on Zaphod. Just a charismatic lucky idiot whose goal in life is to have fun and get high and will agree with his advisors to shut them up except when they're killing the vibe.
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Dec 7, 2023 11:21
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Captain Oblivious posted:I’m all but convinced Cassia is going to be a Camellia level trap of some kind. If she is then Owlcat may have finally learned subtlety. Because Camellia as far as traps go might as well be one of those propped up boxes with food under it. She's so... Obviously evil from moment one. Infinity Gaia fucked around with this message at 11:32 on Dec 7, 2023 |
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Dec 7, 2023 11:28
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Captain Oblivious posted:Yeah all of this can't be emphasized enough. When people talk about "Warhammer 40k is satire" ehhhh not really, not since the 80s. There have been satirical ELEMENTS, but by and large, for a very long time, you are usually supposed to root for and enjoy the victories of the Space Marines and to a lesser degree the Imperium in most public facing 40k media. That's not to say satire is totally absent, but I don't think satire can ever be effective in 40k except to someone who would have agreed with the satire regardless. Rule of cool and satire are incompatible. You are supposed to enjoy playing Space Marines, which is to say, you are supposed to enjoy playing as fascists. You are supposed to have fun with your particular bespoke army mans, and that means inevitably the setting is going to spend a lot of time portraying some of the worst motherfuckers imaginable in a heroic light. If only because the alternative is worse. The thing I've always believed is we all kind of secretly agreed that part of the appeal of WH40K is also vicariously playing out fascist tropes, but with the implicit agreement that everything is so ridiculous you couldn't possible take it seriously. Like joking how somebody would get  'd for being able to wiggle their ears. That assumption is/was overly optimistic, people will absolutely take and reframe things as they please, including using them as positive affirmations of their fascist beliefs. Same as some fascists will insist the society in the Paul Verhoeven Starship Troopers is actually cool and aspirational.It doesn't help that Games Workshop also seemingly can't make up their mind, on the one hand they'll issue public statements telling people that, under no circumstances, you gotta hand it to the Imperium. On the other they've now progressed the timeline again and are actively promoting the leadership of Roboute "I can fix it" Guilliman, or prominently featuring the "Nice" marines of the Salamanders in their promotional material like Pariah Nexus. Whatever satire or commentary there is to be found is completely subordinate to the need for the company to tell you that these plastic soldiers are cool as poo poo and you should buy a new codex today.
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Dec 7, 2023 11:29
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Captain Oblivious posted:I’m all but convinced Cassia is going to be a Camellia level trap of some kind. God, I hope so. gently caress me up, Owlcat.
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Dec 7, 2023 11:35
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Captain Oblivious posted:I’m all but convinced Cassia is going to be a Camellia level trap of some kind. Nah, that they made a statuette of her makes me think that she's what she appears to be: kind of sheltered, naive, and as close to a 40K Waifu as GW will let an official product get. Going by the artbook, the ~twist~ is more that you're going to have to be able to tolerate some... eccentricity on her part. I joked about another character under the spoiler bar, but I suspect non-Iconoclasts are going to have a hard time staying on Cassia's romance path.
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Dec 7, 2023 11:42
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Infinity Gaia posted:If she is then Owlcat may have finally learned subtlety. Because Camellia as far as traps go might as well be one of those propped up boxes with food under it. She's so... Obviously evil from moment one. You will be today’s sacrifice! Your pain is my pleasure!
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Dec 7, 2023 11:44
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I've seen very little discussion on Jae, but I'm probably going to romance her since she's the only option for lesbian Rogue Traders. From what I've heard she also seems like one of the least hosed up companions.
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Dec 7, 2023 12:27
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Nephthys posted:I've seen very little discussion on Jae, but I'm probably going to romance her since she's the only option for lesbian Rogue Traders. From what I've heard she also seems like one of the least hosed up companions. Yrliet is also romanceable for both genders, though from what I hear a relationship with her would be more along the platonic side.
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Dec 7, 2023 12:28
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CommissarMega posted:Yrliet is also romanceable for both genders, though from what I hear a relationship with her would be more along the platonic side. I assume a relationship between a human and an Eldar is exactly like Omniman saying he loved Invincible's mum like he'd love a pet.
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Dec 7, 2023 12:34
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Further Reading posted:I assume a relationship between a human and an Eldar is exactly like Omniman saying he loved Invincible's mum like he'd love a pet. I haven't watched Invincible, but that's my read on it too. I love my cat, but I'm not morally inept enough to want to bang her.
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Dec 7, 2023 12:35
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im really looking forwards to this and loved pathfinder wotr so much i bought copy's for 2 other people, but im sure as hell going to give it a month or two before i pick it up.
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Dec 7, 2023 12:45
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Further Reading posted:I assume a relationship between a human and an Eldar is exactly like Omniman saying he loved Invincible's mum like he'd love a pet. A bad comparison to make since the whole point of that scene is he’s lying to himself in saying that.
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Dec 7, 2023 12:58
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Further Reading posted:I assume a relationship between a human and an Eldar is exactly like Omniman saying he loved Invincible's mum like he'd love a pet. Eldar think of humans as people more than animals, bigoted, dangerous, and dull people, but thinking sentient ones all the same. if the war mask slips the trauma of what a guardian or even aspect warrior has done to them in wartime might cause them to have a real mental breakdown. As opposed to say orks or necons who are more abominations and the guilt doesn't eat away at them much, if at all. Farseers and Exarchs are a hit different since they're lost on the path and in the farseers case, thinking on such a cosmic time scale that even Eldar life is just a bargaining chip in the game of cosmic horror. Honestly even though try to write them as alien and unknowable, the civilian life of craftworld Eldar is more relatable to me than say living in the Imperium. Hanging out and making pots all day or getting real into craft brewing with a manic intensity. Sharkopath fucked around with this message at 13:18 on Dec 7, 2023 |
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Dec 7, 2023 13:08
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I am gonna buy this game today and take it for a spin, I am not familiar at all with CRPGs, I'm a little bit intimidated by it, can I play it like any RPG where all I have to do is hit people with a stick until I get enough money/exp enough to buy a bigger better stick? people on youtube keep putting up pages and pages of numbers and stats and micro-leveling lol
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Dec 7, 2023 13:10
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Craftworld eldar think humans are people, but people who are not worth worrying about or saving since they'll likely just get killed by another human doing something horrific or betray them at a later point in the name of the emperor or something. We joke about the eldar helping you one day and attacking you the next but the imperium is as bad about one day working with the eldar and attacking them for being xenos the next. Dark eldar view humans as a sort of blandish snack who nevertheless scream nicely.
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Dec 7, 2023 13:25
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Al-Saqr posted:I am gonna buy this game today and take it for a spin, I am not familiar at all with CRPGs, I'm a little bit intimidated by it, can I play it like any RPG where all I have to do is hit people with a stick until I get enough money/exp enough to buy a bigger better stick? The easy way out is to just crank difficulty down, either by picking the "story" preset or by individually changing difficulty settings. If you feel personally bothered by that for some reason or want to give it an honest college try then the combat isn't actually that complicated or deep, and hitting things with a stick or a big gun solves practically all problems. You just wanna make sure that when you level you make the right numbers go up. "Weapon Skill" for being better at stick, "Ballistic skill" for being better at gun. You are given two teammates right out of the gate who are each great at one of these and they can probably carry you through the whole game. The game mercifully takes some time to explain things to you so you won't just be thrown into the deep end and expected to do the math yourself. If you do wanna get into it you just have to read tooltips and given that this is a CRPG you'll do a lot of reading anyways.
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Dec 7, 2023 13:35
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CommissarMega posted:Yrliet is also romanceable for both genders, though from what I hear a relationship with her would be more along the platonic side. That's honestly pretty intriguing. I don't think I've played a platonic romance in an RPG so it could be really cool.
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Dec 7, 2023 13:50
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Aramoro posted:People still cosplay as Nazis at 40k Tournaments. Not space Nazis, literal ones. I am curious what you are referring to.
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Dec 7, 2023 14:05
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Clerical Terrors posted:The easy way out is to just crank difficulty down, either by picking the "story" preset or by individually changing difficulty settings. If you feel personally bothered by that for some reason or want to give it an honest college try then the combat isn't actually that complicated or deep, and hitting things with a stick or a big gun solves practically all problems. thanks man forgot to ask, is the game even good? is the story engaging? would you say it's worth buying or wait for a sale/massive patches?
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Dec 7, 2023 14:10
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Eifert Posting posted:I am curious what you are referring to. A Spanish tournament a year back or so had a player in fascist costume with nazi insignia on their army, and when players refused to play against this person, they (the protesting players) were disqualified according to tournament rules. It led to Games Workshop reclarifying affiliated tournament licenses and making a public callout statement that they won't tolerate Nazis in the hobby.
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Dec 7, 2023 14:12
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Sharkopath posted:Eldar think of humans as people more than animals, bigoted, dangerous, and dull people, but thinking sentient ones all the same. if the war mask slips the trauma of what a guardian or even aspect warrior has done to them in wartime might cause them to have a real mental breakdown. As opposed to say orks or necons who are more abominations and the guilt doesn't eat away at them much, if at all. Farseers and Exarchs are a hit different since they're lost on the path and in the farseers case, thinking on such a cosmic time scale that even Eldar life is just a bargaining chip in the game of cosmic horror. It really depends on the Eldar. I don't think Biel-Tan Eldar think of humans as people, and the drukhari who are like 95% of Eldar just don't give a poo poo whether humans are people.
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Dec 7, 2023 14:24
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Al-Saqr posted:forgot to ask, is the game even good? is the story engaging? would you say it's worth buying or wait for a sale/massive patches? I'm kind of biased, but re: the first two questions, I thought it was good (at least from playing the alpha and beta). As for the third- well, we're going to find out in a few hours!
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Dec 7, 2023 14:39
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Arglebargle III posted:It really depends on the Eldar. I don't think Biel-Tan Eldar think of humans as people, and the drukhari who are like 95% of Eldar just don't give a poo poo whether humans are people. Wouldn't most Eldar be exodites by population? The drukhari only have one city, there can't be that many of them
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Dec 7, 2023 15:01
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