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Kalit posted:They firmly believe sexual assaults by Hamas personnel was committed: You are misrepresenting this as evidence that the allegations definately happened, when it is only a statement that they want investigate(of course they do, they are an organization around investigating sexual assault against women) This does not refute what Mean baby said: quote:That UN Women link just calls for an investigation which Israel rejected.
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Dec 7, 2023 16:25
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Kalit posted:They firmly believe sexual assaults by Hamas personnel was committed: They don’t use the word belief, they would have no basis to believe. You are making massive inferences when the language is more vague. They are simply acknowledging their are accusations which they find alarming. You can’t prosecute someone unless there is an investigation. You also can’t go into an investigation assuming an individual would be prosecuted. It is entirely reasonable to have an independent investigation in 10/7, that is what they are calling for.
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Dec 7, 2023 16:27
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https://twitter.com/malonebarry/status/1732738095907250376
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Dec 7, 2023 16:31
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Kalit posted:They firmly believe sexual assaults by Hamas personnel was committed: A lot of claims coming in is alarming whether the claims are true or false if your goal is protecting women and ensuring there is accountability. You don't ask for an investigation if you already have complete evidence, you ask for an investigation to COLLECT it. If the safety of women is being cynically used as a justification for continued violence, that creates an environment where future claims are taken less seriously - that would also be alarming and a bad outcome! The people responding to you are absolutely right that the only people presenting things as fact are the Israeli officials - international bodies respond to claims with 50-page comprehensive reports, not tweets or 1-sentence quotes. If and when they do release something, it will probably be a report that goes into allegations against Israeli treatment of prisoners and/or West Bank civilians at the same time to maintain a sense of neutrality, just like when reporting about Ukrainian and Russian war crimes came out.
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Dec 7, 2023 16:50
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A big flaming stink posted:That 10 month old baby is almost certain to be able to be traded for dozens of Palestinians undergoing an unjust imprisonment and constant physical abuse. If one ignores the ethnicity of those likely to be freed, it strikes me as plainly obvious that the suffering of that baby is outweighed by the suffering of those imprisoned. It's a wonder why being pro-baby-imprisonment isn't winning hearts and minds. quote:Like, why should Hamas let there kidnapping victims go? Because they're innocent. No, I am not going to expound on why innocent people, including babies, should not be imprisoned. quote:Those victims are the only chance that the victims of Israeli prisons might see the light of day! Those victims are innocent. quote:Like I get the sense that you clearly think that the act of committing harm is far far worse than the inaction of letting those suffering continue to do so. I am firmly on the anti-baby-imprisonment side. quote:That honestly strikes me as not being that concerned about the real suffering of real people happening this moment in favor of, for lack of a better term, the moral purity of those involved. I am totally fine with having to answer for my moral stance of being against imprisoning innocent people, including babies.
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Dec 7, 2023 16:53
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Verisimilidude posted:Can someone point me towards some sources, or explain to me, about how some Jews, particularly Ashkenazi Jews, view themselves as "indigenous" to Israel? I know so many Ashkenazi Jews whose families trace back generations into Russia and Poland, without even a tiny drop of Arabic blood, or blood from outside Europe for that matter, who claim that this Israel/Palestine issue is an issue of indigenous people (the Jews) reclaiming their land (Israel) from Palestinians (the colonizers), and it really just blows my mind. "Jewish culture and ethnic identity originate in Palestine, so we're indigenous to Palestine." I think this logic is pretty straightforward and not religious. And it's appealing - if you're someone who takes progressive politics seriously and wants to be on the right side of history, it's painful to think of yourself as a colonizer, and it's delightful to think of yourself as a decolonizing indigenous agent. And it pushes back against the idea, peddled by both Zionists and traditional antisemites, that Jews are defective or untrustworthy because they are "rootless" (not by rejecting the racist idea altogether but just by saying "nope, I'm rooted to Israel") The problem is defining indigeneity as "I belong to a culture/ethnicity which developed originally in this land," which is the sort of mystical/essentialist understanding you develop when you don't know what colonialism is. The useful way to talk/think about indigeneity is "my community is being invaded and occupied on its land" which obviously identifies the Palestinians as indigenous and the Israeli state as an invasive, occupying force. Even in this useful way of talking about it, Jews have historically been indigenous in Palestine at various times, when they were being invaded and occupied by the Seleucid Empire or the Roman Empire or even the British Empire. And some people use that to cynically act as though that's still the power relation today. Again this is why indigineity needs to be defined in the context of a particular colonizing process, not some essential link between blood and soil. Another issue: the popular understanding of indigeneity creates the idea that every ethnic/national cohort is indigenous to somewhere. If that's true, then "Jews are indigenous to Palestine" is maybe the least ridiculous answers to "where are Jews indigenous to?" But it's a dumb question because not everyone is indigenous to somewhere. The French aren't indigenous anywhere because they aren't being colonized anywhere. When you see that indigeneity is developed in relation to the colonizing process, you get a straightforward and useful concept of who is and isn't indigenous. Otherwise you're stuck with biotruths and cultural idealism about who is metaphysically "rooted" where. Here's a good "article" (more like a comic) about this whole thing: https://jewishcurrents.org/when-settler-becomes-native Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Dec 7, 2023 |
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Dec 7, 2023 17:24
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https://x.com/manniefabian/status/1732767254486323333?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q https://x.com/will_christou/status/1732785669204754529?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q Well, poo poo. No gore in the video, just a bunch of undressed dudes in a terrible situation.
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Dec 7, 2023 17:36
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Darth Walrus posted:https://x.com/manniefabian/status/1732767254486323333?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q Is there any reason at all to believe these men are anything other than random civilians the IOF grabbed off the street?
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Dec 7, 2023 17:42
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Nucleic Acids posted:Is there any reason at all to believe these men are anything other than random civilians the IOF grabbed off the street? Worse - other Twitter sources say they were abducted en masse from UN school shelters, although I don't have hard verification on that.
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Dec 7, 2023 17:46
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Nucleic Acids posted:Is there any reason at all to believe these men are anything other than random civilians the IOF grabbed off the street? The official line is that anyone (or, I guess, any man over 18) who hasn't left Northern Gaza following Israel's warnings is suspect. I saw similar reports from 2014 but couldn't find any follow-ups on who the men detained there turned out to be and whether any of them were released after interrogation or tried by Israeli military court and imprisoned.
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Dec 7, 2023 18:00
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Verisimilidude posted:Can someone point me towards some sources, or explain to me, about how some Jews, particularly Ashkenazi Jews, view themselves as "indigenous" to Israel? I know so many Ashkenazi Jews whose families trace back generations into Russia and Poland, without even a tiny drop of Arabic blood, or blood from outside Europe for that matter, who claim that this Israel/Palestine issue is an issue of indigenous people (the Jews) reclaiming their land (Israel) from Palestinians (the colonizers), and it really just blows my mind. Very few people have genealogies going back 2000+ years. These Ashkenazi Jews who can trace their families back through Europe for hundreds of years often honestly believe that, perhaps a thousand years before that, those European ancestors did ultimately descend from Jewish migrants from Israel. And that's generally thought to be true. It's known that quite a few Jews left Israel, willingly or unwillingly, more than two millennia ago, and the political situations of the time period (where Israel fell under the control of several large empires in succession) allowed them to be dispersed quite widely across Europe, Africa, and the Middle East. While it's rare that anyone is able to actually definitively trace their descent all the way back to Israel (the Middle Ages weren't exactly known for detailed record-keeping), it's not seen as a particularly unreasonable belief. Moreover, genetic studies and tests have fairly consistently suggested that there's something to that belief, and that the Ashkenazi population has far more Middle Eastern descent than their Gentile neighbors in Europe do. Nucleic Acids posted:Is there any reason at all to believe these men are anything other than random civilians the IOF grabbed off the street? If the Israeli forces just wanted to strip, blindfold, and march off an assortment of completely random civilians, they could have done it weeks ago when they still mostly retained their credibility. It's hard to see any purpose in doing that now. Especially since it's a very specific claim - if it's bullshit, that'll come out eventually and be extremely embarrassing for Israeli politicians.
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Dec 7, 2023 19:54
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Seems like it's going to be pretty embarrassing for Israel: https://twitter.com/yanisvaroufakis/status/1732804656806436893?t=s38YWCEo4J5gWe28KNlfZw&s=19
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Dec 7, 2023 20:01
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Main Paineframe posted:If the Israeli forces just wanted to strip, blindfold, and march off an assortment of completely random civilians, they could have done it weeks ago when they still mostly retained their credibility. It's hard to see any purpose in doing that now. Especially since it's a very specific claim - if it's bullshit, that'll come out eventually and be extremely embarrassing for Israeli politicians. they already raided terrorist central command center Al Shifa hospital and found out that it was just a hospital, so I think the israelis being incredibly spiteful and embarassing themselves is consistent with past behavior
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Dec 7, 2023 20:02
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Xombie posted:It's a wonder why being pro-baby-imprisonment isn't winning hearts and minds. Buddy, your ethics are kinda useless if it provides zero answers the moment a situation gets complex.
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Dec 7, 2023 21:17
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A big flaming stink posted:Buddy, your ethics are kinda useless if it provides zero answers the moment a situation gets complex. No it actually provides all the answers. The taking of hostages is prohibited.
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Dec 7, 2023 21:25
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even if jews weren't connected to the land by blood, a lot of us would still argue connection to the land through history. that said, folks who have been living there for centuries can say the same thing so it doesn't matter who is "indigenous" by virtue of who was there first. there's also multiple definitions for what indigeneity means so like come on now.
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Dec 7, 2023 21:25
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No one's connected to land by blood. That's not a thing.
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Dec 7, 2023 21:34
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Halloween Jack posted:No one's connected to land by blood. That's not a thing. Even if you want to give credence to the thought, it's inarguably exponentially less important than actually living there for centuries.
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Dec 7, 2023 21:39
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Verisimilidude posted:Can someone point me towards some sources, or explain to me, about how some Jews, particularly Ashkenazi Jews, view themselves as "indigenous" to Israel? I know so many Ashkenazi Jews whose families trace back generations into Russia and Poland, without even a tiny drop of Arabic blood, or blood from outside Europe for that matter, who claim that this Israel/Palestine issue is an issue of indigenous people (the Jews) reclaiming their land (Israel) from Palestinians (the colonizers), and it really just blows my mind. Civilized Fishbot posted:"Jewish culture and ethnic identity originate in Palestine, so we're indigenous to Palestine." I think this logic is pretty straightforward and not religious. And it's appealing - if you're someone who takes progressive politics seriously and wants to be on the right side of history, it's painful to think of yourself as a colonizer, and it's delightful to think of yourself as a decolonizing indigenous agent. And it pushes back against the idea, peddled by both Zionists and traditional antisemites, that Jews are defective or untrustworthy because they are "rootless" (not by rejecting the racist idea altogether but just by saying "nope, I'm rooted to Israel") https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WhrVV52cYc&t=431s BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Dec 7, 2023 |
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Dec 7, 2023 21:42
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mobby_6kl posted:No it actually provides all the answers. The taking of hostages is prohibited. Have you heard of the country that collects hundreds of hostages every year? I guess we should tell them to release the hostages, too. I'm pretty sure they got a big batch of hostages just earlier today. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 7, 2023 21:53
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Halloween Jack posted:No one's connected to land by blood. That's not a thing. it doesn't have to make sense for it to very much be a thing. see also: race
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Dec 7, 2023 21:57
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https://x.com/Lowkey0nline/status/1732855779454009824?s=20 https://x.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1732850536641069415?s=20 Just another horrifying crime committed by Israel against the world. Assassinating important voices speaking about what is going on alongside their families. four children, murdered.
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Dec 7, 2023 22:17
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put you see, hamas murdered a bunch of people too, so it's impossible to say if it's good or bad (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 7, 2023 22:31
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DelilahFlowers posted:https://x.com/Lowkey0nline/status/1732855779454009824?s=20 It's a deliberate attempt to erase Palestinian culture.
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Dec 7, 2023 22:35
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The images of these men stripped to their underwear, placed in the middle of the street to be utterly humiliated is horrific. I can't help but be reminded of some of the images we saw out of Abu Ghraib. Awful.
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Dec 7, 2023 23:43
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Israel is engaging in genocide and mass sexual assault https://twitter.com/redstreamnet/status/1732762635731390594?t=LFyFig0QSYP2ae5-Rw2zCA&s=19
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Dec 8, 2023 00:00
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I mean, it's possible to have a historical connection with a geographical area, without it conferring special rights on you. I have a historical connection, through family, to Scotland and Germany. It does not confer on me a right to even live there, much less kick someone out who has been living there regardless of their own historical connection with the land (which, again, is not absolute). I can't go to Berlin and say "my grandfather lived here, get the gently caress out, I want to live here now" even if the resident's "historical connection" from the land is that they were a refugee who moved in last Tuesday. It's not allowed, and it shouldn't be allowed because it's ridiculous.
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Dec 8, 2023 00:28
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Xombie posted:It's a wonder why being pro-baby-imprisonment isn't winning hearts and minds. Nice one Jon Oliver, jog on. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 8, 2023 00:40
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Main Paineframe posted:If the Israeli forces just wanted to strip, blindfold, and march off an assortment of completely random civilians, they could have done it weeks ago when they still mostly retained their credibility. It's hard to see any purpose in doing that now. Especially since it's a very specific claim - if it's bullshit, that'll come out eventually and be extremely embarrassing for Israeli politicians. Are you kidding me with this? You dont get why Israel would be more abusive to civilians after humiliatingly failing to achieve any of their strategic goals? this is exactly the same pattern of abuse we saw in Vietnam, Iraq, etc.
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Dec 8, 2023 02:07
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These guys are likely all dead right?
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Dec 8, 2023 02:12
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E2M2 posted:These guys are likely all dead right? optimistically they are just being Abu Ghraib'd but hey, we have to withhold judgement, it's possible Israel has a good reason for sexually humiliating this group and shipping them off in trucks.
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Dec 8, 2023 02:17
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To the best of my knowledge israel hasn't been mass executing prisoners lately. Historically they've been fine keeping them and abusing them, with the occasional "whoops the guards beat him to death, very sad". Given the nature of this stage of the conflict that doesn't necessarily mean they won't start with the mass graves but I wouldn't say it's likely just yet, no.punishedkissinger posted:optimistically they are just being Abu Ghraib'd yeah i mean it's not like this + regular israeli detention practices in a good year are sunshine and flowers Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 02:19 on Dec 8, 2023 |
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Dec 8, 2023 02:17
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The IDF is all that stands between the citizens of Israel and mass rape and genocide? Okay. The IDF truly believes that a horde of rapists is holed up in tunnels under Gaza? Okay. Go get ‘em. Because the IDF don’t look like they’re fighting for justice. They look like a bunch of dipshits who couldn’t get out of jury duty.
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Dec 8, 2023 02:32
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Jai Guru Dave posted:The IDF is all that stands between the citizens of Israel and mass rape and genocide? Okay. Conscription is a type of civil service
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Dec 8, 2023 02:33
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E2M2 posted:These guys are likely all dead right? Don't see why. Israel wouldn't have gone through the trouble of bothering to take them captive, strip them, and photographing them if it was just going to summarily execute them immediately anyway. punishedkissinger posted:Are you kidding me with this? You dont get why Israel would be more abusive to civilians after humiliatingly failing to achieve any of their strategic goals? In Vietnam and Iraq, US soldiers generally just indiscriminately murdered a bunch of civilians and then covered it up. They didn't kidnap a few dozen people off the street and claim they'd captured a division of the Republican Guard. That would be stupid and quickly seen through.
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Dec 8, 2023 03:17
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Main Paineframe posted:That would be stupid and quickly seen through. To be fair, though, this does seem to be the IDF's MO when it comes to propaganda.
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Dec 8, 2023 03:23
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Muscle Tracer posted:To be fair, though, this does seem to be the IDF's MO when it comes to propaganda. yeah exactly. also they are targeting civilians for mass murder every single day.
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Dec 8, 2023 04:26
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Israel did find a bunch of Palestinian workers, stripped them, and executed them as Hamas infiltrators during the early October fighting, granted that was in the moment racism vs. this, which seems more like planned humiliation.
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Dec 8, 2023 05:10
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https://twitter.com/AkbarSAhmed/status/1732965567018000643?t=3AlA3cfpAsYmT1G-NlJl2g&s=19 If America is so afraid Israel wants weapons to fight Lebanon can't they just, I dunno, NOT give them weapons? That seems like a good idea right about now.
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Dec 8, 2023 05:56
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:If America is so afraid Israel wants weapons to fight Lebanon can't they just, I dunno, NOT give them weapons? That seems like a good idea right about now. America really hates the idea of someone who wants one NOT having a gun
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Dec 8, 2023 06:00
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