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Purgatory Glory
Feb 20, 2005
Is the new trick for Airbnbing your houses out to stick them in your child's or spouses names?

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tagesschau
Sep 1, 2006
Guten Abend, meine Damen und Herren.

PT6A posted:

Was that a thing?

There are really not that many hotels in Toronto outside the downtown core. Unless you're winning a trip from The Price Is Right, there is more to Toronto than that.

PT6A posted:

I look at it like Uber. I was a big fan, but now it's enshittified, and I'm back to cab companies that have fought tooth and nail to correct the deficiencies that led to Uber being a thing in the first place.

The cab companies here have barely budged on that front.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

tagesschau posted:

The cab companies here have barely budged on that front.

That's too bad. Here I was going to take Uber for a trip, they estimated $35 one way, and I ended up using the Checker Cab app to get a ride for $17 one way and $13 back on the same route, with equal convenience and lovely late-model hybrids both ways. Uber is dead to me. I don't know if they're specifically awful in Calgary, or if our cab companies have stepped up more than average, but cabs provide better and cheaper service at this point.

yippee cahier
Mar 28, 2005

Uber is just an app to get a ride. Cab companies have that now.

Fidelitious
Apr 17, 2018

MY BIRTH CRY WILL BE THE SOUND OF EVERY WALLET ON THIS PLANET OPENING IN UNISON.

yippee cahier posted:

Uber is just an app to get a ride. Cab companies have that now.

I'd say the key difference is that the price you see on the Uber app is what you're going to pay.

Plenty of taxis have their own apps now but you're still getting a best estimate and can't be sure what you'll actually pay.
I have barely used Uber or taxis but I feel like there's more of a tendency for cabs to take a very long time to show up? I dunno.

They're at least much more competitive now. It's a shame that it took Uber existing to force the taxi companies to make the smallest innovation possible.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane
I guess every company’s app is different, but the one I used gave a locked-in price at least one way. And the meter fare the other way was still half of the Uber price so it was a gamble worth taking.

Lead out in cuffs
Sep 18, 2012

"That's right. We've evolved."

"I can see that. Cool mutations."




Femtosecond posted:

God this thing was the worst decision.

The existence of the River District really goes to show that either the entire notion of ~urban planning~ is a horseshit made up profession or that the "planning" that planners do is sadly irrelevant because politics will override whatever well made plans they make.

It's pretty clear that the only reason the River District exists is not for any good planning reason, but because it was bare industrial land, and thus easy and cheap to develop in contrast with redeveloping existing residential land. Developers asked politicians to allow it. Planners either rolled over, were forced into agreement, or foolishly went along with it without protest.

I'm genuinely curious about Suzanne Anton's role in it.


Re: hotels, there are a few down Kingsway, the motel at Main/6th, and a few bigger ones near the hospital. But none of those were built within the last 3-4 decades.

Truman Peyote
Oct 11, 2006



Lead out in cuffs posted:

Lol see also the River District. Right at the furthest corner of the city, with only the most minimal of public transit or amenities, but 19-24 storeys are just fine. Heaven forbid we should do anything similar to Shaughnessy.

the amenities in the river district are truly ridiculous. they still don't have a public library down there.

Fornax Disaster
Apr 11, 2005

If you need me I'll be in Holodeck Four.
In a speech yesterday the Bank of Canada’s deputy governor admitted that the interest rate increases haven’t reduced housing inflation as much as they predicted. The inability of the construction industry to keep with immigration increases was the reason given for this failure.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7052829

quote:

”This jump in demographic demand coupled with the existing structural supply issues could explain why rent inflation continues to climb in Canada. It also helps explain, in part, why housing prices have not fallen as much as we had expected," Gravelle told the Windsor-Essex Regional Chamber of Commerce.

quote:

The deputy governor said shortly after immigration began ramping up in 2015, Canada's vacancy rate — which measures how many homes are available to rent or buy — started to fall. “Then, when newcomer arrivals picked up sharply in early 2022, that steady decline in the vacancy rate became a cliff," Gravelle said.

quote:

But Gravelle's speech offered statistics that show Canada's immigration policy has not been successful at bringing in more construction workers.

"While Canada is welcoming more newcomers than ever, only about three per cent of non-permanent residents work in construction. By comparison, roughly eight per cent of the overall employed population works in construction," he said.

Gravelle said the federal skilled trades program, an immigration pathway that includes qualified construction workers, has also failed to bring in many construction workers.

Increasing immigration is actually reducing the percentage of the population who can work in construction, and the gap is so big it can never be bridged by retraining.

Serotoning
Sep 14, 2010

D&D: HASBARA SQUAD
HANG 'EM HIGH


We're fighting human animals and we act accordingly

PT6A posted:

Was that a thing?

I think a larger issue is that your garden-variety hotel was poo poo for extended stays or large groups. Which, again, is a problem with the hotel industry that could be addressed.

I look at it like Uber. I was a big fan, but now it's enshittified, and I'm back to cab companies that have fought tooth and nail to correct the deficiencies that led to Uber being a thing in the first place.

Nah, Uber is great and was a long time coming. How many examples do we need until we learn that government meddling only leads to distortions and shortfalls, sometimes in "subtlety" systematic ways we couldn't have imagined upfront?

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane
Nice name change. You're still nuts, though, and in this case you're also factually wrong, as I explained the specific ways in which Uber is providing both worse and more expensive service than the cab companies.

I will grant you that it was the Uber's innovation, largely accomplished by skirting regulation, that led to the positive developments on the part of other companies, but to say Uber is great, as in present-tense, is just lunacy at this point.

Purgatory Glory
Feb 20, 2005
Not to continue with uber but my experience has been amazing!

Precambrian Video Games
Aug 19, 2002



I don't remember which thread this Spacing article on Uber in Toronto was posted in originally but it's a good read if you'd like alternatives to certain Randian viewpoints.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane
I'm willing to concede that Disruption(tm) a la Uber and AirBNB are a limited boon, since they have legitimately improved... some things in the marketplace, but it's largely by doing things that were against the rules -- sometimes for good reasons, sometimes for more questionable reasons. Sometimes they largely worked as a proof-of-concept owing to low overhead. For example, it would be difficult to get a hotel company to gamble on: larger rooms, but fewer services. AirBNB has taken the initiative and proved that there's a huge demand for that sort of thing, now we can push them out and apply sensible regulations to ensure that this thing, for which there is clearly ample demand, can be serviced by companies that follow regulations and don't wreck our housing market and inconvenience neighbours, etc. etc.

Postess with the Mostest
Apr 4, 2007

Arabian nights
'neath Arabian moons
A fool off his guard
could fall and fall hard
out there on the dunes
The whole smart phone thing was a pretty bad move in general I'd say.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Postess with the Mostest posted:

The whole smart phone thing was a pretty bad move in general I'd say.

I don't want to say it's definitely as bad as cigarettes, but I do suspect strongly that it might be in terms of the overall suffering it's caused.

Femtosecond
Aug 2, 2003

BC government has released its guidelines around how municipalities should interpret its new rules and how to restructure their zoning to align with the new Provincial minimums. The experts are still going through things and trying to make sense of it, but sounds like the Province has gone dramatically further than what even the most "ambitious" missing middle reforms that Vancouver just passed.

https://twitter.com/1alexhemingway/status/1733171837419560963?s=46&t=ruJSzwqECRxfc3oePbtIng

Vancouver's just passed rules would have restricted 6-8plexes to the bigger 50' lots on the west side. The new Provincial rules would pretty much allow 6plexes on all typical 33' lots within decent bus service, which in Vancouver is practically all lots.

Lead out in cuffs
Sep 18, 2012

"That's right. We've evolved."

"I can see that. Cool mutations."




Femtosecond posted:

BC government has released its guidelines around how municipalities should interpret its new rules and how to restructure their zoning to align with the new Provincial minimums. The experts are still going through things and trying to make sense of it, but sounds like the Province has gone dramatically further than what even the most "ambitious" missing middle reforms that Vancouver just passed.

https://twitter.com/1alexhemingway/status/1733171837419560963?s=46&t=ruJSzwqECRxfc3oePbtIng

Vancouver's just passed rules would have restricted 6-8plexes to the bigger 50' lots on the west side. The new Provincial rules would pretty much allow 6plexes on all typical 33' lots within decent bus service, which in Vancouver is practically all lots.

This is pretty good actually. I've seen property listings in Vancouver for SFH in the most random places asking $4-$5M because the lot is just big enough to do a 6-plex. I'd be very happy if all SFH were on an equal footing and stayed at current prices (which already account for land assemblies in a lot of cases).

qhat
Jul 6, 2015


Fwiw a cab driver just 2 weeks ago tried to pull the whole card machine is broken scam on me, and another tried the same thing to my girlfriend and her parents last week after a white caps game while spouting conspiracy theories the whole ride. I’ve had taxis just recently again blatantly take random detours off the optimal routes just to drive the meter up. These are things that at least I don’t have to worry about with Uber. I’m not saying they are a good company but Holy gently caress the taxi industry in Vancouver is a proper pile of poo poo that drives people into using it.

Femtosecond
Aug 2, 2003

The answer to this scam is to be like, "wow that's too bad man you should get that fixed. Ok well bye!" *leaves cab*

tagesschau
Sep 1, 2006
Guten Abend, meine Damen und Herren.

Femtosecond posted:

The answer to this scam is to be like, "wow that's too bad man you should get that fixed. Ok well bye!" *leaves cab with door open*

qhat
Jul 6, 2015


Yes or let’s call your dispatch and pay over the phone, and suddenly the machine works. I have never had a taxi driver claim the card machine isn’t working and actually not ended up paying using the allegedly broken card machine.

The point was that industry is full to the brim of scamming bastards and I find it really difficult to feel bad that Uber and Lyft are drinking their milkshakes.

Fidelitious
Apr 17, 2018

MY BIRTH CRY WILL BE THE SOUND OF EVERY WALLET ON THIS PLANET OPENING IN UNISON.
Right, I had forgotten that part of it as well.
The cab companies really did it to themselves.

golden bubble
Jun 3, 2011

yospos

PT6A posted:

I'm willing to concede that Disruption(tm) a la Uber and AirBNB are a limited boon, since they have legitimately improved... some things in the marketplace, but it's largely by doing things that were against the rules -- sometimes for good reasons, sometimes for more questionable reasons. Sometimes they largely worked as a proof-of-concept owing to low overhead. For example, it would be difficult to get a hotel company to gamble on: larger rooms, but fewer services. AirBNB has taken the initiative and proved that there's a huge demand for that sort of thing, now we can push them out and apply sensible regulations to ensure that this thing, for which there is clearly ample demand, can be serviced by companies that follow regulations and don't wreck our housing market and inconvenience neighbours, etc. etc.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/11/new-york-tourism-airbnb-rentals-hotels/675860/

quote:

But those hotel rooms may be in short supply as well. In 2010, New York City banned youth hostels, closing 55 establishments across town. In 2018, the city made it harder to build hotels in areas zoned for manufacturing use. Then, in December 2021, the city council made it harder to build hotels across the city. Prior to these changes, developers could put up hotels as long as they followed existing zoning and building regulations. Now hotels must also acquire a special permit. The city’s own projections warned that the regulatory changes would leave the city with insufficient hotel capacity. They were right to worry: In the 12 months following this change, not a single special-permit application was filed.

This is just a NYC article, but the NIMBYs hate hotels almost as much as they hate apartments. A big part of AirBNB was providing new hotel rooms where it is nearly impossible to profitably build hotel rooms due to hospitality taxes or zoning. Of course, those places are also where's it nearly impossible to build profitably in general, so it also put more pressure on long term rentals and homebuyers.

https://slate.com/business/2022/07/hotels-rental-market-housing-prices-shortage-solution.html


quote:

The campaign to eliminate hotel life was remarkably successful. In 1910, for example, San Francisco had a hotel room for every six residents. Today it has 1 for every 25.

https://www.blakingerthomas.com/2018/11/13/zoning-matters-airbnb-and-the-short-term-rental-problem/

quote:

In Reihner v. City of Scranton Zoning Hearing Board, homeowners listed bedrooms on the second and third floors of their single-family home for short-term rental on Airbnb. Guests were limited to four-night stays and had access to the kitchen throughout the day. The homeowners did not serve breakfast or any other meals to their guests. After neighbors complained about observing strangers and parking issues, a city zoning officer issued a violation notice to the homeowners for operating a “bed and breakfast,” which was not a permitted use in their residential zoning district.

There's not enough houses for people in the places people want to live and not enough long term stable rental in those places either, but there's also not enough hotels in the hot tourist spots either. Under capitalism, the a shortage naturally sends prices rocketing to the ceiling. But even if it wasn't under capitalism, there still wouldn't be enough spots for everyone who wants one, which is why we need more of it all. More housing units, more long rental units, and more hotels/short rental units.

RBC
Nov 23, 2007

IM STILL SPENDING MONEY FROM 1888
we should just ban hotels entirely because vacations are a capitalist excess for the rich, much like airports and fridges

Mr Luxury Yacht
Apr 16, 2012


RBC posted:

we should just ban hotels entirely because vacations are a capitalist excess for the rich, much like airports and fridges

Proletarian credentials are measured by how much diarrhea you get on a monthly basis from consuming improperly stored dairy products.

Femtosecond
Aug 2, 2003

golden bubble posted:

There's not enough houses for people in the places people want to live and not enough long term stable rental in those places either, but there's also not enough hotels in the hot tourist spots either. Under capitalism, the a shortage naturally sends prices rocketing to the ceiling. But even if it wasn't under capitalism, there still wouldn't be enough spots for everyone who wants one, which is why we need more of it all. More housing units, more long rental units, and more hotels/short rental units.

but if we allowed people to build houses or hotels someone might make money, which is not allowed.

We must continue to restrict everything and suffer to remain morally clean.

Square Peg
Nov 11, 2008

Femtosecond posted:

but if we allowed people to build houses or hotels someone might make money, which is not allowed.

We must continue to restrict everything and suffer to remain morally clean.

Also please ignore how much landlords and current owners are making from the shortage.

Femtosecond
Aug 2, 2003

Not gonna be popping that bubble any time soon.

https://x.com/TheStalwart/status/1735011832983679331?s=20

tagesschau
Sep 1, 2006
Guten Abend, meine Damen und Herren.
Yeah, it's not like bubbles tend to pop when rates start declining from their peak or anything, other than pretty much always, or that U.S. housing could lose more than 25% of its value after rate cuts start, other than last time.

Femtosecond
Aug 2, 2003

BC NDP the only government in Canada taking this issue seriously right now and implementing systemic change.

quote:

Finally, a government with the guts to take on the housing crisis: B.C.’s NDP

For years now, politicians in Canada have talked urgently about our housing crisis.

And they have talked and talked and talked.

Not surprisingly, the crisis hasn’t abated. If anything, it’s become worse as the tepid remedies offered by Canada’s political class have failed to make any inroads in addressing supply and costs – until now.

B.C.’s NDP government recently wrapped up the fall sitting of the legislature, ramming through a raft of bills related to its housing agenda. It should be noted that “ramming” is the proper word here; the government did not allow any time for honest debate on its various initiatives. Instead, it did what it always angrily protested when in Opposition: arrogantly shut down debate.

That’s lamentable, because the legislation the government passed is easily defensible.

What’s been clear for years now is that the housing crisis is not going to magically fix itself. Interest-rate changes, mortgage-rate adjustments and punitive taxes applied to foreign investors have not had any real impact on supply and prices. It’s been clear for some time that only bold, transformative change would have any meaningful effect. Which is precisely what the B.C. NDP has introduced.

The suite of measures are intended to accomplish a number of things, including densifying single-family neighbourhoods by enforcing zoning changes that will allow up to four units to be built on a standard residential lot and up to six on larger lots near rapid transit.

That multiplex policy is very similar to the one New Zealand’s government introduced in 2016, which is reportedly already leading to some progress on the supply-and-cost front.

A panel of experts on the NDP’s housing strategy found that B.C.’s various housing initiatives could result in up to 293,000 net new housing units being built by 2034. They also suggested the proposed changes could reduce housing prices by 7 to 14 per cent over five years from what they might have been, absent the new measures.

It should be noted, however, that there are caveats in the panel’s report that you could drive a bulldozer through. Much depends, the authors noted, on interest rates remaining stable, construction capacity being able to meet demand, there being no constraints on infrastructure development, and so on.

But the purpose here is not to take issue with the report, or to pooh-pooh the government’s gaudy projections. No, I think at this point, one needs to applaud the NDP for having the courage to push forward with these changes in the face of intense objections from powerful forces at the municipal level that object to having these moves foisted upon them.

Many of the cities now grappling with these new zoning changes have asked for more time to implement them. The NDP, quite correctly, said it didn’t have that luxury. Doubtlessly, municipalities could come up with a million reasons why it would be better to put the housing measures on ice until there was more time to study their implications.

That pause could have easily stretched on for years. And the status quo would have prevailed.

That is not an option. Radical change is the only way forward. Is this all going to go according to script? Inevitably not. There may well be problems that arise as a result of the government’s ambitions: the necessary infrastructure might not be available, there could be a shortage of construction workers, or economic headwinds may slow the pace of progress. Segments of the population won’t like the changes and could foment revolt.

All that could happen and more. And don’t think there weren’t elements inside the NDP government who wished Premier David Eby had taken a slower, more risk-free approach in addressing the housing crisis. But that gets us nowhere. It’s sometimes better to ask for forgiveness than permission, and this is one of those cases.

The NDP may have to adjust on the fly and take another look at their plans if something clearly is not working. That’s the right thing to do. The wrong thing to do is to hold off on everything until you imagine you have eliminated every possible landmine. That is a strategy for failure.

It’s more than possible, even a likelihood, that even if the NDP achieves its housing targets, it won’t be enough to meet demand. The Canadian Mortgage and Housing Corporation estimates that B.C. needs to build more than 600,000 new housing units by 2030 to improve affordability. It may be that Ottawa’s current immigration strategy, which will increase demand, is not sustainable.

But for now, the B.C. NDP is doing the right thing. They are doubtlessly being watched by governments across the country to see what kind of political price they pay, if any at all.


Subjunctive
Sep 12, 2006

✨sparkle and shine✨

gently caress yes, more ramming please

Juul-Whip
Mar 10, 2008

RBC posted:

we should just ban hotels entirely because vacations are a capitalist excess for the rich, much like airports and fridges
thats right everyone should have to stand in a windy, muddy field while they wait for their plane to be ready.

Arivia
Mar 17, 2011

Juul-Whip posted:

thats right everyone should have to stand in a windy, muddy field while they wait for their plane to be ready.

bombardier doesn't need any more handouts

mila kunis
Jun 10, 2011

tagesschau posted:

Yeah, it's not like bubbles tend to pop when rates start declining from their peak or anything, other than pretty much always, or that U.S. housing could lose more than 25% of its value after rate cuts start, other than last time.

Not sure I understand, why does rate cuts = bubble pop? Is it just correlation, that they tend to cut rates out of desperation when things are looking really bad?

tagesschau
Sep 1, 2006
Guten Abend, meine Damen und Herren.

mila kunis posted:

Not sure I understand, why does rate cuts = bubble pop? Is it just correlation, that they tend to cut rates out of desperation when things are looking really bad?

It's correlation. Rates being cut aggressively means a significant economic slowdown, and a significant economic slowdown puts nothing but downward pressure on asset values.

Fidelitious
Apr 17, 2018

MY BIRTH CRY WILL BE THE SOUND OF EVERY WALLET ON THIS PLANET OPENING IN UNISON.
Yes, the bubble will surely pop this time.

PT6A
Jan 5, 2006

Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Fidelitious posted:

Yes, the bubble will surely pop this time.

Ah, well, nevertheless...

tagesschau
Sep 1, 2006
Guten Abend, meine Damen und Herren.

Fidelitious posted:

Yes, the bubble will surely pop this time.

I mean, yeah, the safe bet is on this time not being different.

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jettisonedstuff
Apr 9, 2006

tagesschau posted:

Yeah, it's not like bubbles tend to pop when rates start declining from their peak or anything, other than pretty much always, or that U.S. housing could lose more than 25% of its value after rate cuts start, other than last time.

We are not experiencing a housing bubble in Canada. The high prices are due to a massive shortage of housing. Rental vacancy rates in Canadian CMA's are currently below 2%. Compare with US rental vacancy rates from the mid to late 2000's, which hit peaks over 10% from historical averages around 5-7% all while housing prices increased. That was just large rental buildings too, apparently there were whole neighborhoods of McMansions in Florida that were largely vacant. We're not seeing the same thing here, we just don't have enough housing to go around and people pay what they need to for housing in Canada, because otherwise they die of hypothermia.

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