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Pentecoastal Elites posted:^^^ This line you just stated is an inference that I am defending Israel and excusing their lies. Notice how this reads versus the lines in the BBC article? If the BBC article wanted to infer it, they would have wrote something like "Among the dead, which included babies, [gross/explicit thing about decapitations]"
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Dec 8, 2023 18:47
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Kalit posted:This line you just stated is an inference that I am defending Israel and excusing their lies. Notice how this reads versus the lines in the BBC article? the way the article is worded will allow you to make this argument indefinitely and we should drop it on the grounds that if you don't want to see the inference they have given you the rhetorical tools to make it so that you never have to. this is not a fruitful avenue of discussion and we should not continue it.
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Dec 8, 2023 18:54
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:the way the article is worded will allow you to make this argument indefinitely and we should drop it on the grounds that if you don't want to see the inference they have given you the rhetorical tools to make it so that you never have to. this is not a fruitful avenue of discussion and we should not continue it. You're right, we might not see eye to eye with what technically constitutes an inference. Either way, I hope you can agree with my original point that Mean Baby posted:The BBC also reported, without retraction, the beheaded baby story
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Dec 8, 2023 18:57
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Xombie posted:No, I am absolutely not going to agree to the context that imprisoning babies is a victimless crime. That is absolutely sociopathic. Imprisoning any innocent person is, by definition, victimization and unjust. No, there isn't a bigger context that *justifies* crimes against innocent people. And no, I am not saying the genocide justifies the kidnapping. I also would not say that being murdered by cops retroactively *justifies* counterfeiting. These are obvious strawmen. (Which I think gets you a probe in this thread, if my own rap sheet is to be believed.) With this comparison, I am using a small-scale example to demonstrate my point. The point is not that kidnapping is like counterfeiting. The point is that kidnapping is so much smaller than genocide, in the same way that counterfeiting is so much smaller than a single extrajudicial murder. That is the comparison being made here. In order to argue against this comparison, you would have to say that kidnapping is actually not a much smaller crime than genocide, and that they are of similar scale. So make that argument or don't. If you won't, then it's clear to all that you are trying to spend your time here discussing what you know to be the smaller crime. You may think that is okay, but others will draw their own conclusions. Just as we drew conclusions about people who wanted to argue about George Floyd's fake bill.
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Dec 8, 2023 19:28
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Jimbozig posted:Arguing about the morality of Hamas's kidnapping in this context is just like arguing about the morality of George Floyd's paying for cigarettes with a fake 20. Of course it may be wrong and it may be prohibited, but there's a vastly bigger crime going on here and it makes you look like you're trying to distract attention from that.  No, it's not racist to disapprove of baby kidnapping. It is nothing like arguing about the morality of George Floyd. The problem with talking about George Floyd's small potatoes crime is that it didn't justify being murdered. No one here is saying that Palestinians deserve to be murdered over what Hamas did. Just because Israel does worse doesn't mean that Hamas's crimes should be forgiven or forgotten. What Hamas did is wayyyy higher on the scale than paying for cigarettes with a fake bill to begin with. Jimbozig posted:Nobody said kidnapping was victimless. Hell, even passing a fake bill isn't completely victimless! You accused him of being racist for disapproving of baby kidnapping. And you know what? It doesn't matter that kidnapping is a lesser crime than genocide. People can still disapprove of Hamas doing it while also saying 'Israel should stop being far worse, too'. You don't have to absolve Hamas of their crimes.
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Dec 8, 2023 19:43
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Interesting interview with Shaul Magid, a secular academic and rabbi, about the origins of Zionism and how a broad consensus around "we Jews need to do something about being unsafe everywhere" descended into a fixation on the establishment of a state, which was understood by both proponents and enemies as the conclusion of religious Judsism. Brings up that, years before Herzl became the face of Zionism, he proposed that Jews should mass-convert to Christianity. Also covers the project to "de-Arabize the Arab Jews." https://thedigradio.com/podcast/zionism-vs-anti-zionism-ep-1-w-shaul-magid/ Jimbozig posted:In order to argue against this comparison, you would have to say that kidnapping is actually not a much smaller crime than genocide, and that they are of similar scale. The problem here is that you think people here discuss events based on how important they are, and not how interesting they are. Out in the real world, people should take concrete action in proportion to the significance of the crime and where they can have the most influence - for virtually everyone here, this means focusing all our attention on Israel, because it's killing thousands of civilians and westerners have some influence over it, unlike Hamas, which is abusing dozens of civilians and totally independent of our influence. But the Something Awful forums aren't the real world and posting isn't action, so inferring a person's priorities from their posts is a failure. "What are the moral obligations, if any, of a quasi-state actor resisting the colonization and occupation of its constituents" is an interesting question where decent, thoughtful people can have different answers. It has no practical application for anyone in this discussion, but that's fine, this isn't a forum for practical planning, it's for discussing interesting questions. "Is the State of Israel murdering thousands of civilians, and is that bad" is not a question where decent, thoughtful people can have different answers, so I don't think it's an interesting question - important but not interesting. It is practically critical that we all know the answer is "yes" but that's accomplished. If anyone said "I'm out every day trying to get Hamas to release the captives, whatever Israel's doing isn't s big priority to me, it seems bad but I'm focusing on pressuring Hamas by any means I can" then the dynamic you describe would be applicable, because that's someone who clearly thinks that the kidnappings are more important then the genocide. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Dec 8, 2023 |
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Dec 8, 2023 19:51
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Both the UN and the BBC say that they saw direct video and photo evidence. Since this came up in a report, I should address it. I haven't looked at what the UN saw, but in the case of the BBC, it wasn't technically "direct" evidence. If they saw videos or photos or sexual assault in progress, that would be direct, whereas the aftermath and lead-ups would be circumstantial evidence. However, despite how "circumstantial" is often used popularly to mean "inconclusive," circumstantial evidence can be very powerful when the inference is obvious or there is corroborating evidence, and those are both the case here. So this does not damage your overall point that there is good evidence that the BBC viewed, but rather is only about the exact definition of "direct evidence."
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Dec 8, 2023 20:01
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:The "Hamas video" cited is something that no one has access to except for israeli officials who have, we are told, shown it to a number of journalists. Who knows what that video contains, or even what israelis purport it contains other than "Hamas doing atrocities". I hope that you and others in this thread apply the same rabid skepticism to Hamas and Hamas-aligned Palestine. War propaganda can be expected (and very likely has occurred) on both sides of this and possibly every large scale conflict ever. Jimbozig posted:Nobody said kidnapping was victimless. Hell, even passing a fake bill isn't completely victimless! As someone who liked your original George Floyd counterfeiting analogy (liked engaging with it, not it's clarifying power), I will not try to strawman it and instead address it directly: Jimbozig posted:Arguing about the morality of Hamas's kidnapping in this context is just like arguing about the morality of George Floyd's paying for cigarettes with a fake 20. Of course it may be wrong and it may be prohibited, but there's a vastly bigger crime going on here and it makes you look like you're trying to distract attention from that. The context absolutely still matters, in both cases. We can appreciate the difference between being wrongly killed while being wrongly arrested by a cop, and being wrongly killed while being rightfully arrested by a cop; and that those two injustices hold different weight. Anyone who says that everything before the murder of George Floyd by cop is irrelevant to anyone who isn't a racist are not worth listening to, because it all matters in the eyes of the law. Just like how circumstances revealed "after the fact", such any racist tendencies or communications of Derek Chauvin or lack thereof, would obviously weigh on the case. The real distraction is accusing anything of anyone wanting to know more information, because information "matters" not until it is interpreted by a human brain; to a politically healthy mind, more information is always strictly a boon, and its pursuit is an absolute.
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Dec 8, 2023 20:06
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Serotoning posted:I hope that you and others in this thread apply the same rabid skepticism to Hamas and Hamas-aligned Palestine. War propaganda can be expected (and very likely has occurred) on both sides of this and possibly every large scale conflict ever. I have no need to treat Palestinian claims with any skepticism, because there is more direct firsthand evidence and testimony of the cruelty and depravity of the zionist apartheid regime and its ongoing genocide that I could examine in a lifetime. israel is currently engaged in a unflinching genocidal slaughter against a people they consider racially inferior, and I can know this by the testimony of Palestinians, the horrific images of death, destruction, and mutilation coming out of Palestine, and indeed even the statements of the israelis who are executing this genocide as well as the official statements their monstrous apartheid regime vomits forth. israel, on the other hand, has been lying constantly and consistently since October 7th (and long, long before as well). all of their lies, every single one, has been in the service of strengthening and generating support for their apartheid system and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. The israelis have lied about beheaded babies, fabricated intercepted communications, lied about hospital command centers, etc. etc. etc, all in service of their campaign of genocide. Now they're telling me about how Hamas has rape gangs, trust us, for real, no nobody can look into it but we promise its true -- again for the same exact reason they have been lying from the beginning: to justify the genocide they're committing.
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Dec 8, 2023 20:23
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Serotoning posted:
Does a politically healthy mind view a human life as less important than $20?
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Dec 8, 2023 20:57
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If Israel wanted people to be more skeptical of Palestinian coverage of their ongoing genocide, they could let foreign war journalists access Gaza and stop blowing up reporters (which they're doing at a rate that far exceeds normal death rates for war journalists, and seems disproportionately targeted against Palestinian journalists). As it is, while I'm sure Palestinian coverage is biased too, it's practically all we have besides the openly propagandistic Israeli coverage.
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Dec 8, 2023 20:57
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Kalit posted:You're right, we might not see eye to eye with what technically constitutes an inference. Either way, I hope you can agree with my original point that The story the bbc reported is from the same event as the beheaded baby story, just framed in a different way. It is still reporting out what the IDF claimed happened by pointing out body bags and blaming everything on Hamas. They even compare Hamas to ISIS which Israel has been desperate to connect because it fuels anti-Arab sentiment. It is just more nuanced Hasbara of the same story.
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Dec 8, 2023 20:57
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Serotoning posted:I hope that you and others in this thread apply the same rabid skepticism to Hamas and Hamas-aligned Palestine. War propaganda can be expected (and very likely has occurred) on both sides of this and possibly every large scale conflict ever. British journalist Owen Jones applied skepticism to the snuff film Israel was shopping around and it turns out almost nothing they say it shows was in there.
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Dec 8, 2023 21:04
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Civilized Fishbot posted:The problem here is that you think people here discuss events based on how important they are, and not how interesting they are. And yet... every one of us with pattern recognition saw that the people bringing up the fake bill tended to fit a certain description. I can't say that everyone who brought it up was racist, but I can say that most of the ones I saw doing that were absolutely racist. And plenty of people, myself included, made judgements about the people we saw making certain arguments. Those arguments made them all look racist, even if some of them weren't.
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Dec 8, 2023 21:13
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Jimbozig posted:I like this post a lot. And it makes a lot of sense. But when I go back to my own analogy, I see that "is counterfeiting a victimless crime?" and "in what circumstances is it morally ok to try pass a fake 20?" are objectively more interesting questions than "is it bad that cops choked a man to death over a fake 20?" which is an obvious"yes, duh." That's interesting, but what does it have to do with saying 'baby kidnapping is wrong no matter who does it'? Hamas is not George Floyd, not even metaphorically, in this situation. Neither is Israel an evil white cop. Hell, Israel is much much worse. This just seems like an excuse to accuse people who don't absolutely approve of all of Hamas's as being racist.
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Dec 8, 2023 21:24
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Serotoning posted:I hope that you and others in this thread apply the same rabid skepticism to Hamas and Hamas-aligned Palestine. War propaganda can be expected (and very likely has occurred) on both sides of this and possibly every large scale conflict ever. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck that noise. All skepticism and accountability should be aimed 100% at the state of Israel until there is a separate and not violently oppressed Palestinian state that can be responsible for any particular crimes that Hamas may commit. Until that day, every bit of rabid skepticism aimed elsewhere just supports an ongoing genocide. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 8, 2023 21:35
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Serotoning posted:I hope that you and others in this thread apply the same rabid skepticism to Hamas and Hamas-aligned Palestine. War propaganda can be expected (and very likely has occurred) on both sides of this and possibly every large scale conflict ever. Israel/IDF have been caught in many blatant and obvious lies and forgeries for years, especially after 10/6. Any "rabid" skepticism is fully earned.
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Dec 8, 2023 21:55
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Serotoning posted:I hope that you and others in this thread apply the same rabid skepticism to Hamas and Hamas-aligned Palestine. So on one hand "don't be skeptical and ask for more information" because that's "rabid" and also: Serotoning posted:The real distraction is accusing anything of anyone wanting to know more information, because information "matters" not until it is interpreted by a human brain; to a politically healthy mind, more information is always strictly a boon, and its pursuit is an absolute. The Sean fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Dec 8, 2023 |
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Dec 8, 2023 22:43
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:I did not say you made those posts. Please read what I've actually written instead of the post you imagine I'm writing. This is nonsensical word gaming. You said "you maintain that you've not made any posts explicitly in support of israel or their genocidal campaign" I do maintain that, because it's true. Which is why I said "If you think I have, go find those posts." I said that, because "you maintain" implies distrust. I am saying that if you don't believe me, go ahead and look. Now you're coming back with "I did not say you made those posts". You certainly implied it. DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Dec 8, 2023 |
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Dec 8, 2023 22:47
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DeadlyMuffin posted:This is nonsensical word gaming. I'm sorry if you understood it that way but that is not what I meant and I thought the way I worded it was very clear. You and I both seem to agree that it is a position you maintain! I am not talking about specific posts which you and I agree don't exist, I am talking specifically about you getting pushback even though you have not made posts here that denote explicit approval of israel or its actions. I am talking about how you and other posters here post stuff like "show me where I've made a post saying israel is good", which is to say, maintaining a position that you do not support israel because you have not made posts that say you do, and so therefore you get confused/upset/etc when people respond as if you have. my point, in that post, was that it is happening because you seem to have -- or at least make posts that evince -- an implicit trust of israel sources, at least if they're laundered through eg. the BBC
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Dec 8, 2023 23:07
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The Sean posted:So on one hand "don't be skeptical and ask for more information" because that's "rabid" and also: No, do be skeptical and pursue more information. I was not being ironic or anything there.
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Dec 8, 2023 23:13
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Nice video of IDF soldiers just destroying a shop for no reason https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1733256585311359479?t=RVDqBLhsi6hnM2tWoIV9Rw&s=19
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Dec 9, 2023 00:29
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:my point, in that post, was that it is happening because you seem to have -- or at least make posts that evince -- an implicit trust of israel sources, at least if they're laundered through eg. the BBC No. That's a misreading of my position. When the BBC says "videos filmed by Hamas" I am taking them at their word. You and some of the other posters in this thread seem to be reading it as something closer to "videos that the BBC acquired from the IDF propaganda department which they say were filmed by Hamas". Maybe rather than try and puzzle out some implied meaning, ask a question, like "do you implicitly trust Israeli sources?" because the answer is a resounding "no" and it would've saved you a lot of keystrokes. DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 00:46 on Dec 9, 2023 |
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Dec 9, 2023 00:38
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DeadlyMuffin posted:No. That's a misreading of my position. When the BBC says "videos filmed by Hamas" I am taking them at their word. Did you read the article? Because the only footage "filmed by Hamas" (according to whom is never mentioned, presumedly the IDF) shows zero evidence of rape. The vast majority of the article is by one unnamed israeli eyewitness (only footage of this testimony was shown to unspecified "jorunalists") and several IDF and israeli officials offering extremely lurid statements that -- the author of the article makes sure to point out -- have not been verified by the BBC and even is doubted amongst israeli media. Statements that sound, I'm sorry, like all the other israeli lies that have been propagated in attempts to justify their genocide. You claim to not implicitly trust israeli sources, and maybe you wouldn't if it came from TOI or JPost, but apparently when laundered through the BBC that's enough. Because, unless I have very seriously misread the article, and we take the BBC and their description of the videos they saw and their source as 100% truthful and accurate, it does not constitute evidence of supposed rapes that are, I must stress this again, being used as an excuse to engage in genocide.
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Dec 9, 2023 02:03
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:Did you read the article? Because the only footage "filmed by Hamas" (according to whom is never mentioned, presumedly the IDF) shows zero evidence of rape. I'm not sure if you're trying to split a hair on "evidence of rape" vs. sexual assault, but yes, I read the article. Here's the paragraph I am referring to. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67629181 posted:Videos of naked and bloodied women filmed by Hamas on the day of the attack, and photographs of bodies taken at the sites afterwards, suggest that women were sexually targeted by their attackers. There is also this one: quote:Videos filmed by Hamas include footage of one woman, handcuffed and taken hostage with cuts to her arms and a large patch of blood staining the seat of her trousers. The article also cites accounts from volunteer organizations collecting bodies, with the caveat that the BBC was not been able to independently verify them. I do not think the assumption that the BBC's sources are entirely the Israeli government, or even that they are entirely Israeli at all is a valid one. The article would be worth a read yourself.
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Dec 9, 2023 02:43
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DeadlyMuffin posted:I'm not sure if you're trying to split a hair on "evidence of rape" vs. sexual assault, but yes, I read the article. We've seen that picture of the bloodstained trousers and it does not look anything like sexual assault what the gently caress
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Dec 9, 2023 02:49
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DeadlyMuffin posted:I'm not sure if you're trying to split a hair on "evidence of rape" vs. sexual assault, but yes, I read the article. There is, again zero evidence of rape or sexual assault outside of israeli sources and what the article's author says "suggests" it. The only item of ostensible "evidence" in that article that does not come from an israeli source is the "Hamas video" we (afaik) know nothing about, that, by the author's own admission, does not actually show any rape or sexual assault. Even if everything everyone in this article said was 100% true, it still would not justify the ongoing genocide the zionists are currently carrying out. However, the complete lack of evidence and the constant, consistent, well-documented history of israeli lies and propaganda points to this all being complete and utter bullshit, even if the BBC sees fit to print it. The smart, moral, and consistent thing to is to regard it as a complete fabrication until israel shares real evidence or allows an independent investigation (which it has already forbidden).
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Dec 9, 2023 03:06
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Has anyone suggested that any crime Hamas has done justifies what evils Israel are and have been perpetrating? I've never seen it, but it gets used a lot to shout down anyone who might not be fine with everything Hamas does. See: disapproving of baby kidnapping is racist, apparently. Also you don't need videos of rapes literally happening on screen to be able to tell if a rape has happened. They leave evidence behind.
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Dec 9, 2023 03:09
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The problem with the "crimes of hamas" is the same problem as the supposed mass raping at the hands of crazed hamas terrorists: the only "evidence" we have for everything that can't be independently verified comes from the genocidal apartheid terror state that has been constantly lying about everything and forbids independent investigation. 40 beheaded babies, babies baked in ovens, hospital command centers, terrorist ambulances, intercepted evildoer cellphone conversations, etc etc etc are all shown to be complete fabrications that are quietly walked back when they stop working or are shown to be lies. If you want to be especially upset that they kidnapped the baby, by all means, but if the testimony of the mother of the recently released child is anything to go off of it seems that they might just try to teach the baby some table manners. If they're not killed by israel's indiscriminate genocidal bombing campaign, that is.
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Dec 9, 2023 03:24
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:Even if everything everyone in this article said was 100% true, it still would not justify the ongoing genocide the zionists are currently carrying out. Who is saying that it does? I'm certainly not, so why bring this up? We can argue back and forth about what's a valid source or "direct evidence" or how much we trust the BBC, or what about the videos suggests sexual assault vs actually showing sexual assault but I think the part of your post that I've quoted above really indicates that that's not what you're actually arguing against. You paint your stance as the moral one, but I don't think so. I think you're willing to excuse or explain away crimes by the side that is overall in the right. It's no different from an American denying that Japanese soldiers were mutilated for war trophies or that there was widespread rape by Allied armies in WW2. Pointing out those things and saying that they were wrong doesn't mean that those soldiers were on the wrong side of the war. So, intentionally or not, when you are bringing up the fact that Israel is committing genocide in this discussion you're attacking a strawman. I agree. They are commiting genocide. Pentecoastal Elites posted:If you want to be especially upset that they kidnapped the baby, by all means, but if the testimony of the mother of the recently released child is anything to go off of it seems that they might just try to teach the baby some table manners. With statements like this I have a hard time believing you'd care about sexual assault by Hamas fighters given any amount of evidence. DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Dec 9, 2023 |
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Dec 9, 2023 03:58
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DeadlyMuffin posted:It's no different from an American denying that Japanese soldiers were mutilated for war trophies or that there was widespread rape by Allied armies in WW2. Pointing out those things and saying that they were wrong doesn't mean that those soldiers were on the wrong side of the war. It is more akin to denying Hamas beheaded 40 babies, actually.
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Dec 9, 2023 04:06
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Is there any other likely outcome other than the near complete anhilation of the Palestinians at this point?
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Dec 9, 2023 04:12
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Edit: nm
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Dec 9, 2023 04:16
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:The problem with the "crimes of hamas" is the same problem as the supposed mass raping at the hands of crazed hamas terrorists: the only "evidence" we have for everything that can't be independently verified comes from the genocidal apartheid terror state that has been constantly lying about everything and forbids independent investigation. 40 beheaded babies, babies baked in ovens, hospital command centers, terrorist ambulances, intercepted evildoer cellphone conversations, etc etc etc are all shown to be complete fabrications that are quietly walked back when they stop working or are shown to be lies. If you want to be especially upset that they kidnapped the baby, by all means, but if the testimony of the mother of the recently released child is anything to go off of it seems that they might just try to teach the baby some table manners. If they're not killed by israel's indiscriminate genocidal bombing campaign, that is. Hamas has admitted to kidnapping the baby. Are we to disbelieve them? I am utterly against Israel and their lies, but just because I am on Palestine’s side doesn’t mean that I won’t ignore it when they commit misdeeds too.
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Dec 9, 2023 04:27
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Kchama posted:Hamas has admitted to kidnapping the baby. Are we to disbelieve them? I am utterly against Israel and their lies, but just because I am on Palestine’s side doesn’t mean that I won’t ignore it when they commit misdeeds too. You'd rather they leave the baby to die? Taking the adults but leaving their baby seems pretty cruel to the baby.
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Dec 9, 2023 04:45
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Who is saying that it does? I'm certainly not, so why bring this up? I'm not saying you say it does, I'm making a point about how the genocide is not and can not be forgiven even if the israelis here turn out to be 100% truthful, but that this case is almost certainly the same as everything israel has put out: a complete fabrication to excuse their behavior. That my position on the genocide not being contingent on the truthfulness of the israelis is an important statement for me to make, in my opinion! At any rate the rest of your post isn't really relevant to our conversation here but my entire point that there isn't "any amount of evidence". There's zero. Kchama posted:Hamas has admitted to kidnapping the baby. Are we to disbelieve them? I am utterly against Israel and their lies, but just because I am on Palestine’s side doesn’t mean that I won’t ignore it when they commit misdeeds too. I'm not saying Hamas didn't kidnap the baby. I don't want nor am I able to stop you from finger-wagging that as much as you see fit, I'm saying that based on what we have heard from the released hostages that by far the greatest harm that might befall the baby, or any hostage, is coming from israel, not Hamas. If you don't know what I'm referring to, the mother of the young girl that was released recently sat down for an interview with israeli news media and the horrifying testimony she gave was that her daughter returned with improved politeness and the Arabic term for "shut up".
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Dec 9, 2023 04:45
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Grem posted:You'd rather they leave the baby to die? Taking the adults but leaving their baby seems pretty cruel to the baby. I’d rather they not, yaknow, take anyone. I think that’d be extremely obvious. Don’t kidnap people, period.
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Dec 9, 2023 05:10
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Fidelitious posted:This reads like willful bad faith interpretation. At no point did they say that Israel's hostage taking was "okay" or that the rules don't apply to them. Certainly didn't mean it that way, I just meant in what way are we even supposed to know what are considered "hostages" in Israel when they're basically just called "prisoners"?
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Dec 9, 2023 06:14
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I’ve had people in my circle taking an interest in the history of Israel/Palestine and wanting to read a book. Are there any recommendations for a book that is accessible to someone with minimal prior knowledge?
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Dec 9, 2023 06:16
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Xombie posted:
Right so, as I have been asking, because I am not clear here, how it is a ton of people, mostly women and children, are being held as prisoners for many years, without a whole lot, if any evidence, and yet they are not "hostages", but merely are considered prisoners. The term seems to be only getting applied in the sense that only Hamas and Palestine has hostages. Israel has "prisoners". You can bring up as many babies as you like, it's not like there were babies out to destroy Israel in incubators, who were left out to rot in Gaza. So, I'm not sure what kind of collective retribution you're looking to justify. Killing and kidnapping babies is bad. Seems kind of obvious. That wasn't what I was asking about. MadSparkle fucked around with this message at 06:41 on Dec 11, 2023 |
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Dec 9, 2023 06:32
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