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skeleton warrior posted:
This isn't analogous, because you're adding extra layers. A more accurate analog would be if the pope and the Vatican flags were telling the White House to stop people from criticizing the Catholic church, because that's prejudiced against individual catholic people.
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Dec 9, 2023 20:07
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rydiafan posted:Nobody's saying Israel's influence on American policy is shadowy or secretive. To my edit above, which clearly happened while you were responding: then why show "the state of Israel" in the cartoon as shadowy with a veiled face? The cartoon is literally saying that Israel's influence on American policy is shadowy. Edit again: Like, I completely understand that there are people out there who instantly accuse anyone criticizing Israel's genocidal and apartheid politics as "anti-semetic", and I sympathize with being defensive about it. But this isn't the first time Latuff has included some problematic poo poo in his cartoons about Israel. skeleton warrior fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Dec 9, 2023 |
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Dec 9, 2023 20:07
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rydiafan posted:This isn't analogous, because you're adding extra layers. A more accurate analog would be if the pope and the Vatican flags were telling the White House to stop people from criticizing the Catholic church, because that's prejudiced against individual catholic people. A better example would be the same comic but about Turkiye and the Armenian genocide, and declaring it to be islamophobic because the Turkish flag incorporates the star and crescent.
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Dec 9, 2023 20:18
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Y’all it’s bigoted nonsense to say that the only state that has a top 10 spending superPAC dedicated to lobbying the US on its behalf has an outsized influence on US politics. Similarly, if Israel and Jews weren’t the same thing, why would they use the same symbol??
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Dec 9, 2023 20:35
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Latuff has a history of riding the line on antisemitic imagery. I'd rather not go on a spelunking quest for the blood, the sidelocks, or the octopus at the moment.
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Dec 9, 2023 21:01
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It could just be a coincidence that he happened to use a Jewish shadowy puppetmaster character; he might not have been intending to use a specifically antisemitic trope to make his point. After all, it's not as if he ever drew a giant Jewish octopus Well, okay, at least he didn't have anybody drinking blood  And of course he never would have depicted a Jew as a pig  But surely he never referenced the idea of Jews as the murderers of Jesus  And he definitely didn't enter a contest designed to promote Holocaust denialism... although to his credit, when he definitely did do this and won second place, he didn't do it with a cartoon that denied the Holocaust. Instead, he went to one of his favorite themes about how Israel is actually just Nazi Germany. (A theme he likes to bring up on Holocaust Remembrance Day.) Here's the thing. Carlos Latuff is not Stonetoss. He's not going out and saying that all Jews are evil, and he definitely denies that he thinks this. I'm even willing to believe him! But he absolutely dips into antisemitic tropes for his cartoons, and after twenty years (really? dear God) of reading them, I certainly don't believe that he's just doing so accidentally. He's not an idiot. He knows what these symbols are. At a certain point, drawing a couple of blue lines on the Star of David so he can spread his hands helplessly and say it's just the Israeli flag doesn't cut the mustard. It's simply his practice to deliberately use these tropes and then get performatively angry when people accuse him of antisemitism. I think most of us would agree with the messages of his cartoons (except when he's doing things like claiming that murdering and raping a bunch of people at a concert is an enormous victory for Mother Palestine or supporting genocidal totalitarian regimes in Russia and China), but the ends, as they say, do not justify the means. He's perfectly capable of making powerful cartoons without using this sort of imagery; I've posted several examples here in this thread myself. Going to this well just muddies the message. idonotlikepeas fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Dec 9, 2023 |
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Dec 9, 2023 21:20
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Well in any case I won't be voting for it in that category anyway, because it still isn't going to top the Garrison one that depicted Zelensky as a literal bloodsucking mosquito with a suspiciously curved probiscis.
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Dec 9, 2023 21:37
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That one was pretty hosed up. But then again, it's Garrison.
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Dec 9, 2023 21:47
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I don't think any will top the Sinfest ZOG ones this year, unless Tats outdoes himself in the next few weeks and starts quoting Ernest Renauld.
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Dec 9, 2023 21:55
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Latuff falls into the same pit as a lot of people whose political ideology consists of hating America as hard as possible and not much else
Youremother fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Dec 9, 2023 |
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Dec 9, 2023 22:29
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That is, fundamentally, the issue, yes. Latuff doesn't seem to care about oppressed people generally; why are there no cartoons about the Uyghurs? Why are his cartoons about the Russia/Ukraine conflict pro-Russian ant anti-Ukrainian? He cares about being anti-"west" - he leverages Israel's genocidal actions towards the Palestinians not because they are evil in and of themselves (which they are), but because they are a weapon against America and its ally, Israel. He calls Ukrainians Nazis, despite the fact that they are the victims of an attempted genocide, because he supports their enemy, Russia. The consistency in his cartoons is not along the lines of what actions he supports or opposes, but which parties are taking those actions.
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Dec 9, 2023 22:37
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skeleton warrior posted:If there had been hundeds of years of racists saying "you can't trust Russians, they're only loyal to the Russian government, they have a secret shadow network they use to control things due to the International Russian Conspiracy" where Russians are often depicted as shadowy, behind-the-scenes puppetmasters controling governments, maybe your analogy would stand, but you're kicking away a lot of historical context to try and say "Latuff isn't being problematic here". I'm not sure how anyone who cares about facts could possibly think differently tbh. Like: islamophobia is a real thing, and bad, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about Saudi influence over our politicians VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Dec 9, 2023 |
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Dec 9, 2023 23:47
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VitalSigns posted:In an alternate reality where all of our antisemitic tropes and racism about Jewish people were about Russians instead, I still think one should be able to criticize bad things the Russian government is doing without being labeled a problematic racist, yes. You’re confusing “can this criticism be made” and “is this Latuff comic capable of that criticism”. These are wildly distinct things, especially with Latuff’s history.
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Dec 9, 2023 23:49
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VitalSigns posted:In an alternate reality where all of our antisemitic tropes and racism about Jewish people were about Russians instead, I still think one should be able to criticize bad things the Russian government is doing without being labeled a problematic racist, yes. Did you read idonotlikepeas post? Are you cool with criticizing the Israeli government by describing them as blood drinkers? As pigs? As octopuses? By making an analogy to how they're responsible for Jesus' death? I'm not sure how anyone who cares about facts could possibly look at the images here and not go "wow that's really pulling in some anti-semetic imagery for their crictizism of Israel" tbh
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Dec 9, 2023 23:50
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skeleton warrior posted:Did you read idonotlikepeas post? Are you cool with criticizing the Israeli government by describing them as blood drinkers? As pigs? As octopuses? By making an analogy to how they're responsible for Jesus' death? Yes somebody brought up comics from over a decade ago (2010, 2005, 2002!) to prove that he's racist and that all of his criticism of Israel should be interpreted as racist, but from what I remember he was criticized for the imagery in those comics and doesn't use imagery like that anymore. People can learn and change. There was also a fourth comic posted but I don't see anything racist about depicting Israeli settlements killing peace (symbolized by a dove). It's pretty accurate. The description says it's about Jews killing Jesus but either that's a huge stretch or op accidentally linked the wrong comic.
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Dec 9, 2023 23:56
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And here we are again:Discendo Vox posted:There doesn't need to be a detailed analysis of Latuff's beliefs because he's a propagandist working on behalf of authoritarian regimes. That's where his comics stem from- money, from authoritarians, to spread propaganda. His work continuously appearing in mintpress and global times should be sufficient to establish this. It's also yet another object lesson in how motivated reasoning can make someone a channel for propaganda talking points, even if they're so obvious that they're literal giant bloody hands cartoons coming directly from named propaganda outlets. If you find yourself defending it, you should really stop and take stock of what it means about how you're approaching information.
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Dec 10, 2023 00:03
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It's a reference to La Pieta: Which still seems like a stretch to me. The others are pretty bad, but are all from over a decade ago, which really speaks to how long Israel has been oppressing the Palestinian people more than anything else.
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Dec 10, 2023 00:05
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Fister Roboto posted:It's a reference to La Pieta: Remember when there was a whole post explaining Latuff’s history of being a bad actor and you refused to even read it. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 10, 2023 00:07
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Xiahou Dun posted:Remember when there was a whole post explaining Latuff’s history of being a bad actor and you refused to even read it. It continues to be poor analysis. Latuff isn’t a staff cartoonist for propaganda outlets. He’s an independent cartoonist who’s cartoons are sometimes purchased by said outlets because they coincide on a particular topic (typically criticizing the US). Declaring that a bad actor is lazy thinking.
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Dec 10, 2023 00:19
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Paul Robeson was interviewed in Soviet media for his America-critical pieces on black liberation. That did not make him a bad actor. It means that his own political interests and Soviet state interest coincided.
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Dec 10, 2023 00:22
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Fister Roboto posted:It's a reference to La Pieta: He literally put a Star of David on a knife stuck through a representation of Jesus - not only is the Pieta one of the most well-known artistic representations of Jesus, the dove of peace is also used in that way. Yes, the star there is also the Israeli flag, but I explained in my last post why, to me at least, that doesn't seal the deal. "The Jews killed Jesus" has been one of the main antisemitic tropes for over a thousand years now. VitalSigns posted:Yes somebody brought up comics from over a decade ago (2010, 2005, 2002!) to prove that he's racist and that all of his criticism of Israel should be interpreted as racist, but from what I remember he was criticized for the imagery in those comics and doesn't use imagery like that anymore. People can learn and change. This discussion started because he used an image like this in a cartoon he posted yesterday, and you're wildly mischaracterizing my point there. I literally said in that very post that I am willing to believe his statements that he isn't an antisemite, merely that he sometimes chooses to use antisemitic imagery in his cartoons and that I can't believe he's doing it accidentally at this point. In contrast, let's take a look at something else he's done recently:  This one has the Israeli flag in it, too, but there's nothing about "planes bombing a village" that is a historically antisemitic image. If he'd put it on the money I might have gotten a little more nervous, but attributing it to the U.S. doesn't seem as suspicious. Or this one:  Now, both of those were put out for Chinese propaganda outlets (which is they they focus as much on attacking the U.S. as Israel), but that doesn't make them wrong. Latuff is perfectly capable of making a cartoon whose point is "Israel has done something bad" without invoking antisemitic imagery if he wants to. It's not a question of all anti-Israel cartoons being antisemitic, or all of Latuff's cartoons being antisemitic, it's a question of a specific set of cartoons where he's using antisemitic imagery to make a point and how that's not a good thing to do for a variety of reasons. Edit: fool of sound posted:It continues to be poor analysis. Latuff isn’t a staff cartoonist for propaganda outlets. He’s an independent cartoonist who’s cartoons are sometimes purchased by said outlets because they coincide on a particular topic (typically criticizing the US). Declaring that a bad actor is lazy thinking. I am not certain that that's an accurate representation of his relationship with Mint Press. They refer to him as "Our Cartoonist", he does exclusive cartoons for them, he promotes their stuff on his personal twitter, etc. I don't know what their financial relationship is, but it doesn't seem like it's limited to them buying the occasional cartoon they agree with. idonotlikepeas fucked around with this message at 00:42 on Dec 10, 2023 |
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Dec 10, 2023 00:35
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idonotlikepeas posted:This discussion started because he used an image like this in a cartoon he posted yesterday, and you're wildly mischaracterizing my point there. I literally said in that very post that I am willing to believe his statements that he isn't an antisemite, merely that he sometimes chooses to use antisemitic imagery in his cartoons and that I can't believe he's doing it accidentally at this point. But he didn't though. The cartoon from yesterday is nothing like the really bad ones you posted. AIPAC exists, its donations to US politicians are a matter of public record. It's not anti-semitic to acknowledge that, and it's not anti-semitic to use the Israeli flag as a symbol of Israel (if Israel's government doesn't want the Star of David included in symbolic representations of their state, maybe they shouldn't put it on nationalist symbols in the first place.) Going back to 2002 to dig up a few examples of actually problematic imagery over the years isn't much of an argument that this cartoon is bad, seems more like poisoning the well. Looking at this latest cartoon on its own merits, there's nothing objectionable there, and I see no reason to impute something objectionable based on some bad cartoons from 1-2 decades ago. If he drew an Israel octopus recently, maybe, that would indicate he hasn't changed. If the latest example is 2010...ehhh. idonotlikepeas posted:He literally put a Star of David on a knife stuck through a representation of Jesus - not only is the Pieta one of the most well-known artistic representations of Jesus, the dove of peace is also used in that way. Yes, the star there is also the Israeli flag, but I explained in my last post why, to me at least, that doesn't seal the deal. "The Jews killed Jesus" has been one of the main antisemitic tropes for over a thousand years now. Should he scrutinize his work for anti-semitic interpretations, yes. Should he even be wary of interpretations based on logic as tortured as this, uh idk maybe to a point, but this is pretty out there. Was he deliberately putting a secret message to Christians about Jews killing their Messiah in a toon published for Muslim audiences about a completely unrelated subject, I'm gonna say no. It's a little hard to tell from your argument where on this continuum you're falling.
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Dec 10, 2023 01:24
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Xiahou Dun posted:Remember when there was a whole post explaining Latuff’s history of being a bad actor and you refused to even read it. I do! I read the whole thing but didn't come to the same conclusions as the OP, and decided it was best to agree to disagree with them rather than drag it out into a dumb slap fight (and they were gracious enough to respond in kind). It kinda loving sucks for you to drag that back up and just lie about me.
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Dec 10, 2023 01:43
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:yeah I'm not sure what the giant shadowy figure adds except a frisson of antisemitism. He's literally wearing the Israeli flag as a tie Blue Star, blue stripes, in a white background
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Dec 10, 2023 01:48
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One of the examples in the follow up post hinges on a tiny cup being red.
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Dec 10, 2023 02:03
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VitalSigns posted:But he didn't though. The cartoon from yesterday is nothing like the really bad ones you posted. AIPAC exists, its donations to US politicians are a matter of public record. It's not anti-semitic to acknowledge that, and it's not anti-semitic to use the Israeli flag as a symbol of Israel (if Israel's government doesn't want the Star of David included in symbolic representations of their state, maybe they shouldn't put it on nationalist symbols in the first place.) AIPAC is not a shadowy puppetmaster, though, and you don't have to use that figure to represent it. As you point out yourself, it's not secret and it doesn't pretend it doesn't exist. Israel and the U.S. are openly allied and the Republicans who put that bill out and put the "antizionism is antisemitism" provision in it made no secret about the fact that it was intended to support Israel. Nothing about any of this is secret, so why use a shadowy figure to represent it? Shadowy Jewish Puppetmasters are 100% an antisemitic image, and he chose to use that even though it wasn't a great fit for the situation. VitalSigns posted:This is too much of a stretch. Did he mean to evoke a famous statue...maybe. It's definitely the Pieta. I spent a few minutes digging just now, and here it is on Latuff's Deviantart page. VitalSigns posted:Is the Dove supposed to be Jesus, no it's pretty obviously meant to represent peace in the Middle East, not Christian symbolism. The cartoon isn't even about Christianity, Mother Palestine is Muslim. Is the knife "Jews", no. The knife isn't even "Israel". The knife is labeled "settlements". It is representing a specific action done by (or with the support of) a state. Again that the state in question is represented by a flag with the Star of David on it is because Israel put that on their flag. None of the above, of course. It's not particularly tortured logic. He took a statue of Jesus, put a different thing often used as a symbol of Jesus in his cartoon of it, and stuck a knife through it with a Jewish symbol on it. The elements are all right there and none requires any particular effort to spot. Is the message of the piece specifically "the Jews killed Jesus"? No, it's about settlements killing peace in the middle east. But the antisemitic elements are still there, just as they're in all the other cartoons I included, none of which have the ostensible message of "all Jews are evil". The point is that he is using these antisemitic elements to other purposes, not that he has literally become Stonetoss. (Well, the point is "he should not do that", but that point depends on agreeing that is doing it to begin with.) HootTheOwl posted:One of the examples in the follow up post hinges on a tiny cup being red. Honest question: are you alleging that that's not blood? Given the rest of the image, I have trouble imagining it's supposed to be anything else.
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Dec 10, 2023 02:23
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“If you depict Israel’s flag in a cartoon criticizing them, you’re antisemitic because it has the Star of David on it” sure is a take. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 10, 2023 02:29
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Heliotrope posted:“If you depict Israel’s flag in a cartoon criticizing them, you’re antisemitic because it has the Star of David on it” sure is a take. Sure would be, if anyone were saying that.
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Dec 10, 2023 02:33
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idonotlikepeas posted:
Uncle Sam is the one getting served anyways. quote:AIPAC is not a shadowy puppetmaster, though, and you don't have to use that figure to represent it. After all: That's what the money is for!
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Dec 10, 2023 02:35
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idonotlikepeas posted:Sure would be, if anyone were saying that. Several people have. I even quoted one
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Dec 10, 2023 02:37
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idonotlikepeas posted:Sure would be, if anyone were saying that. You called the flag a “Jewish symbol”.
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Dec 10, 2023 02:38
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HootTheOwl posted:I'm allerging it's a detail so irrelevant it doesn't matter Whether someone is being served blood or not seems pretty important to me, and the liquid in it being exactly the same color as the nearby charnel pit-slash-swimming-pool certainly seems pretty significant in terms of the reader figuring out what it is. The size the element takes up on the printed page is not the only measure of its importance. HootTheOwl posted:what else is a big money lobby group than a faceless giant controlling the people they buy? Since you ask, he often uses one of the people in the group to represent them in this case. (As do others.) It's not as if he's worried about referencing obscure people nobody would recognize, either; he just did one a little bit ago about an administrator in a school in Milan that I guarantee almost nobody in the U.S. would ever even have heard of. Heliotrope posted:You called the flag a “Jewish symbol”. I called the Star of David a Jewish symbol. Are you arguing that it's not? That's why it's on Israel's flag to begin with. I also posted two cartoons that I said I didn't see as antisemitic, both of which had the same flag in them, just being used in a different way. Where you put that flag and what you do with it matters when interpreting its use as a symbol. For instance, here's one of the original Jewish Octopus cartoons:  If I literally redrew that cartoon but stuck a couple of blue lines on there, would that really change what I was doing? Or would it simply be a fig leaf that let me try to get away with using the symbol while not explicitly endorsing its original purpose? I'm saying it's the latter.
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Dec 10, 2023 02:46
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Clay Bennett Jeff Danziger  Another use of the Israeli flag that doesn't seem particularly problematic; as I said before, there's no long-standing antisemitic interpretation of "airplanes". Matt Davies  Pedro X. Molina  Lee Judge  I don't think McCarthy could handle this job. Kirk Walters  I don't even know that much about football and I'm still pretty sure this is Kirk being a dickhead. (If I recall properly, this NIL business is the only thing that lets college athletes make money at all instead of just being exploited for their skills.) Jimmy Margulies  David M. Hitch  Carlos Latuff  Refaat Alareer posted:If I must die, Amjad Rasmi  uh Man, I've already spent too much time on this kind of thing today. Someone else take this one. Adam Zyglis  Ward Sutton  [/quote]
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Dec 10, 2023 03:02
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idonotlikepeas posted:
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Dec 10, 2023 04:16
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https://twitter.com/chunterkap/status/1733488466569101409?t=IhgvZlJfU7uN3U4Fzxx2uQ&s=19
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Dec 10, 2023 05:55
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idonotlikepeas posted:
Just drawing a representation of a faceless superPAC influencing congress on behalf of a foreign country, or drawing a similar pose to a famous statue is not purposely evoking any Nazi or anti-semitic propaganda, and when I asked if you thought Latuff was purposely putting in a secret message that the Jews killed Jesus into an anti-settlement cartoon you said no, so neither of those are the same thing as swapping an Israeli flag into a Nazi propaganda poster.
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Dec 10, 2023 06:34
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edit: --- not worth it
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Dec 10, 2023 07:31
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By god, it’s 2023 and the thread has genuine Latuff Talk again. Just need Ramirez to pump out a couple of Wormbamas and start posting Day by Day again.
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Dec 10, 2023 07:45
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As long as nobody posts any weather vanes.
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Dec 10, 2023 08:21
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idonotlikepeas posted:Well, okay, at least he didn't have anybody drinking blood Sorry, but that is clearly a swimming pool full of mud
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Dec 10, 2023 08:22
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