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James Garfield posted:Israel isn't really pertinent, since Trump winning will at best have no effect and probably lead to more US weapons for Israel. But Trump winning will stop US air defense to Ukraine which will lead to children being murdered by shaheds in kindergarten as part of an ongoing genocide. Turns out there can be more than one genocide at the same time. There's been an ongoing genocide in Myanmar since long before the start of this thread and this post is the first time anyone has said Myanmar in it. If you want to get utilitarian about it, I'm not sure US could support Israel much more, but there is a nonzero chance Trump would be offended by some perceived slight and withdraw some support, and a pretty realistic chance that he would damage the political, diplomatic, and military apparatus in a way that would lessen US capability to provide effective support.
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Dec 10, 2023 18:12
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theCalamity posted:I'm not doing this to feel good about myself. I'm doing it because not voting for people who support an ongoing genocide is the right thing to do. You're misconstruing the idea of non-action as if it's opposition. Not voting isn't withdrawing your support of genocide, it's tacitly supporting genocide along with the additional policies of the worse candidate. You have no real choices in this system where some part of you isn't tacitly supporting the ongoing genocide.
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Dec 10, 2023 18:13
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James Garfield posted:That's all very nice that you get to feel good about yourself for not voting for a Democrat, but it doesn't stop any shaheds from hitting kindergartens. You're dismissing someone's legitimate concerns over the Palestinian genocide as "not wanting to get cooties".
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Dec 10, 2023 18:16
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theCalamity posted:
You are "choosing" it to an even greater degree than I am "choosing" to abandon Gazans, because in the case of the Americans who are in danger you actually do have some power to help. I know neither of us support either of those forms of injustice, but we have to consider the relative effect of our actions on each. theCalamity posted:Because voting for people who support genocide is bad. Genocides are bad. Why vote for people who support genocide? Nucleic Acids posted:Biden cannot be a good president worthy of support when he is actively more responsible for a genocide occurring than anyone save Benjamin Netanyahu and the Israeli war cabinet. Nucleic Acids posted:If Joe Niden loses it will be his fault and that of
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Dec 10, 2023 18:16
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If every option is offering the same genocide the most moral option is something illegal that would get me permabanned for saying outright (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 10, 2023 18:17
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Main Paineframe posted:That's why accelerationism has traditionally been an idea mostly explored by the ivory tower segments of the left (academics, philosophers, college kids, and internet bloggers) while being largely ignored by the actual poor and downtrodden (labor, civil rights movements, etc). Accelerationists were kiss of death poo poo for a lot of the causes i ever put my time and effort and love into. Like we'd be trying to get anything concrete done that would materially assist the vulnerable. Food banking, legal resources expansion, legal expense crowdfunding, community gardens or community building, battered partner bug out resources, trans identity bug out resources, immigration assistance, language translation assistance timeshare, poo poo that we actually did that was really working. But once the metaphorical progressive stack of committees or strategy get-together started courting or debating how we needed to be electorally disengaged and treat everything as a run up to a collapse, or that there could be no collaberation with local pols in either party because it's "just voting on the less painful execution" or something else, it was like a timer went off and your group had 4 to 6 months tops before it became completely useless The people blessed with time and energy to contribute material improvements eventually had to leave because they absolutely were not going to sit through another 4 hour committee where the only thing concretely 'accomplished' was that absolutely nothing was going to be accomplished. but we were going to write a really fire declaration of outrage at something new today. Now that would usually be enough for me to hold the accelerationist trend in contempt but these days i have all new, super awesome reasons for it, because we now have ten family members rescued from overseas through sponsorship parole immigration policies that the current administration snuck through around every conservative legal roadblock they put up, simply because biden actually wanted to go through the trouble and make it work to the furthest extent they could fight for it. A tangible, vital blessing in our lives that conservatives want to intentionally destroy to the maximum extent they can get away with, and they'll do it with maximum cruelty. Instant revocation and termination of parolee status will happen. We'll go from "not great but at least there's some progress that has saved our lives and reunited families" to "stephen miller is now handpicking the purge replacements for every office in the executive branch based off of how fast they will imprison, deport, or even kill us, which he desperately wants to do because he's a nazi" and those seizures and deportations will happen Accelerationists are the ones listening to our current situation of what will actually happen if progressives sit it out as a moral stand, and still usually conclude to my face ultimately that we ought to be the human sacrifices so that the necessary and productive collapse and revolution can begin. A revolution that will definitely happen like they're saying it will, by the way. You can trust them. It definitely won't just translate into things just getting worse and poisoning conditions terribly or even fatally for any of us who don't have the resources to flee to a different part of the world we can gamble on not being even worse. I don't know why you think it would happen that way again just because that's pretty much all we get
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Dec 10, 2023 18:18
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mawarannahr posted:If you want to get utilitarian about it, I'm not sure US could support Israel much more, but there is a nonzero chance Trump would be offended by some perceived slight and withdraw some support, and a pretty realistic chance that he would damage the political, diplomatic, and military apparatus in a way that would lessen US capability to provide effective support. This is ahistorical, considering Trump's relationship with Netanyahu and how his first term went. Trump is a huge Bibi supporter and too stupid to understand the larger ramifications of just going along with everything he wants.
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Dec 10, 2023 18:24
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Gripweed posted:We can quibble about the precise definition of "collapse" but the idea that societal collapse, where the old structures break down and things suck and a lot of people starve to death has never led to positive changes afterwards is just historically incorrect. If your best example is Japan circa 1945, then what you're really celebrating isn't accelerationism, but rather neocolonialism. And although the old structures were apparently torn down, many of the same old pre-war leaders were soon placed back in power, presiding over a one-party state that was just as happy to purge leftists as it had been in the 1930s, even if it was less openly authoritarian. It's especially ridiculous because Japan has a much better example of the breakdown of an old order leading to social changes less than a century beforehand: the Meiji Restoration, where the highly-stratified class system was abolished, various remnants of feudalism were torn down, hereditary rulership was replaced with elected representative government, and numerous social and economic reforms were put into place. And all that without needing to be completely conquered and have their government dictated to them by the imperial power forcibly dragging them into its sphere of influence. FistEnergy posted:This is laughably incorrect. Leftist positions and programs to enact meaningful material change poll extremely well. Leftist programs that have been implemented (like social security, the 40 hour workweek, COVID checks, etc) become wildly popular with the electorate. You can't use a lack of electoral success to prove that leftism doesn't work, because both parties sabotage outsiders and outsider positions at every available opportunity. And the US mass media upholds the status quo at all times as well. Your "tons of evidence" is nothing but fruit from the poisoned tree. Plenty of stuff polls well when you ask people in a vacuum whether they like a policy. But when it comes to what motivates people's voting decisions, they seem to like other issue positions better. And the other part is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Leftist programs that have been implemented - meaning leftist programs that had the popular and electoral support to be implemented - are popular? Of course they are. If they weren't popular, they wouldn't have been implemented in the first place. That's the thing. The basis of politics is popular support. You can't argue that leftism is a surefire election winner and will do way better than centrism, and then follow it up by saying that leftists aren't winning because the centrists are keeping them down. You can't say that leftism is popular with voters, and then follow it up by saying that voters aren't voting for leftism because the media is tricking them into hating leftism. You can't have it both ways. Either leftism is a popular election-winner, or it's not. And if it's not, then we need to figure out how to solve that issue*, instead of just complaining about it. *And no, the solution to "leftists aren't winning elections" can't start with "leftists win elections, implement all their favored policies, and then repress their opponents". It can't start with "leftists convince their political opponents to willingly stand down and hand their seats to the leftists that can't beat them" either. The solution has to come through the ultimate source of all political power and legitimacy in the US: the people. Or a military coup, but I'm not gonna hold my breath for a left-wing military coup to happen. Byzantine posted:The GOP did hold the Senate in 2016, and they held the Senate in 2018 despite the blue wave against Trump. Then covid hits, and the 2020 election takes place after 12 years of Dem Presidents. There's no reason to think President HRC would lead to Dem control of the Senate during her term unless you're just writing fanfic where those loving leftists stopped #GirlBoss from ushering in eternal liberal glory, or you think that Trump and Trump alone was the problem and if he was slain in '16 then the rising tide of fascism in the US would've just fizzled out once the object of their hatred for thirty years was in office. Yes, in the same election that Trump won, the GOP held the Senate. If Trump had lost the 2016 election, then it's likely that Dems would also have done better in the 2016 Senate elections. And with a different president running the show, White House-Senate relations and issues go very differently. Moreover, Trumpism became ascendant precisely because it didn't lose! The GOP establishment's greatest argument against the far right was that fascism was unelectable outside of the deepest red seats, and that there was simply no choice but to take a moderate course and dial back the fascism in order to win national elections. Trump shattered that argument, emboldening the far-right base and leaving the moderates with little choice but to fall in line after he succeeded where the moderates were so sure that he'd fail. All of this, incidentally, is why projecting "what-if" hypotheticals years into the future are a fool's errand. You can't just make one little change and then confidently project things four years into the future as if literally nothing else was affected by that change in any way. That's especially true when your one little change is the result of the most important presidential election since 2000 and the largest political realignment of the 21st century.
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Dec 10, 2023 18:27
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Madkal posted:What about voting for people who support the LGBTQ community or woman reproduction rights or unions? It very much feels like saying people should disregard domestic policies that help Americans for foreign policies that don't affect Americans. You can not vote for someone who supports genocide but your are also not voting for someone who might make lives of millions of vulnerable Americans better as well. Genocide is a deal breaker even if they support the LGBTQ community or reproductive rights or unions. I've spoken with other people in my communities and in the trans community and we all feel that our liberation shouldn't come at the expense of others. We are in solidarity with Palestinians The ongoing genocide in Gaza affects Americans. There are Americans whose families are being killed in Gaza and they are not happy with Biden and a lot of them are planning to stay at home in 2024. Misunderstood posted:How am I assuming it?
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Dec 10, 2023 18:29
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I'm sure this time the US Pol thread will get to the bottom of whether voting for the lesser of two evils is Good or Bad
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Dec 10, 2023 18:29
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Nosre posted:I'm sure this time the US Pol thread will get to the bottom of whether voting for the lesser of two evils is Good or Bad
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Dec 10, 2023 18:32
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Misunderstood posted:For better or worse this kind of Kantian stuff has no place in politics. When every option is compromised, all a Kantian can do is nothing. Politics are gross and wrong and morally compromised. That's why people hate politics. I think that part of what we are seeing, with the relentless negativity, is a result of more people having politics interjected into their lives, and perhaps not really being prepared to deal with how much it sucks. There are plenty of people who still completely manage to avoid politics, but ever since Trump made politics seem much more urgent, and social media made it easier to spread political messages, way more people who would otherwise be happily ignoring all this terrible stuff have to deal with the fact that it's happening. They don't get the context of how politics suck. They don't get how a vote for FDR was a vote "in support of Japanese internment," by the standard some are using here. Or how a vote for LBJ was a vote for war in Asia. They don't realize that the moral deficits in positions of power are nothing new, and ubiquitous throughout history to the point of seeming inevitability. They don't get that we are probably near a historic low of this kind of injustice, considering the bloodiness and callousness of the past, both recent and historical. This is probably worse for Americans to have to deal with, because no other country's citizenry has to reckon with their government doing such high volumes of lovely things to people in other countries, and many don't have governments who do the things to their own citizens ours does (although a hell of a lot do and worse.) If you want to follow politics closely, you really have to build up some intellectual and ethical calluses. A whole lot of people have been thrown into it all at once and they're getting some bad blisters. Nosre posted:I'm sure this time the US Pol thread will get to the bottom of whether voting for the lesser of two evils is Good or Bad (I also frankly reject the idea that I vote for "evil" at all.) theCalamity posted:Because I do things that help marginalized communities. Although, I think I read your post wrong. Misunderstood fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Dec 10, 2023 |
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Dec 10, 2023 18:32
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theCalamity posted:The ongoing genocide in Gaza affects Americans. There are Americans whose families are being killed in Gaza and they are not happy with Biden and a lot of them are planning to stay at home in 2024. There aren't even protest vote candidates that aren't pro-genocide this time around?
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Dec 10, 2023 18:34
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I don't know why we're looking at post-WW2 Japan and the Middle Ages for examples of an imperial state collapsing when Soviet Union was still around less than 35 years ago, and it successor state continues to be a genocidal and colonialist threat to the rest of the world. Neither the Americans who want to bomb the Middle East nor the weapons they want to use for that purpose would suddenly vanish into thin air if the US got dissolved.
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Dec 10, 2023 18:36
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Papercut posted:This is ahistorical, considering Trump's relationship with Netanyahu and how his first term went. Trump is a huge Bibi supporter and too stupid to understand the larger ramifications of just going along with everything he wants. Remember how while the Biden administration was doing concrete (if still woefully insufficient) negotiations to back down Israeli responses and negotiating the temporary ceasefirre, Trump was howling on social media about "when they spill a drop of your blood take a gallon of theirs?" "Gosh I don't see how a Republican would have done worse/Democrat would have done better" has been a refrain of many at least since Gore critics were watching Bush invade Iraq while stuffing the government full of fundies and ghouls at home." I can't think of a time when it didn't require both a profound lack of imagination and willful ignorance to what both sides say and do. Calling Democrats still not good enough is fair, but ignoring the gap between them and Republicans really hurts credibility.
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Dec 10, 2023 18:36
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theCalamity posted:Genocide is a deal breaker even if they support the LGBTQ community or reproductive rights or unions. I've spoken with other people in my communities and in the trans community and we all feel that our liberation shouldn't come at the expense of others. We are in solidarity with Palestinians Oh, do we all agree now? I certainly don't, my other trans and queer friends largely don't. They understand that the fight for Palestine is elsewhere, not in November on the ballot. We lost the chance to have it there. My friends understand the fight against genocide has to come from direct action and winning influence: it's on the streets, it's changing minds, it's forcing them to reconsider, it's in the primaries. We understand that in November, you hold your nose for the day and then you go back to doing the groundwork that actually makes a difference on the issues that aren't on the ballot this time. That's how you vote for the lesser of two evils and don't make yourself complicit. Why are you acting like voting is the start and end of political actions and your personal endorsements?
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Dec 10, 2023 18:37
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Rogue AI Goddess posted:Neither the Americans who want to bomb the Middle East nor the weapons they want to use for that purpose would suddenly vanish into thin air if the Union was dissolved. Even beyond an American collapse not preventing international consequence... from a domestic standpoint, I've always wondered how a far left social democratic or Communist government, imposed through whatever means necessary, would survive, when 30-40% of the population absolutely loathed it and was heavily armed to boot. It's hard to conceive how the government wouldn't either be brutally oppressive or fall rather quickly... and of course, we have historical examples of this. "The United States," "The Democrats," "Israel," they are important ideas but they are just ideas, in the end it's just people, and some of them suck a lot, and eliminating the ideas does make the people cease to exist. Misunderstood fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Dec 10, 2023 |
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Dec 10, 2023 18:39
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didn't there used to be a thread to argue about whether voting was good or not
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Dec 10, 2023 18:40
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theCalamity posted:Voting for someone who is actively supporting a genocide is not making lives meaningfully better. Quite the opposite actually. Israel and Saudi Arabia were going to normalize relations. https://apnews.com/article/biden-israel-saudi-arabia-normalization-hamas-246213034afa75e4dff27e71362a1979 In the immediate sense that’s what started all this. Hamas was reacting to that, because they are also Sunni. There was a widespread and fast normalization of relations that was about to happen between Israel and several Sunni states (including Egypt). I think turning something extremely complicated into a political cudgel is bad faith. All this death and loss isn’t about US politics. Treating as such is to treat the actual states, peoples, and groups involved as lacking their own agency.
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Dec 10, 2023 18:44
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Not voting supports genocide.
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Dec 10, 2023 18:44
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Papercut posted:This is ahistorical, considering Trump's relationship with Netanyahu and how his first term went. Trump is a huge Bibi supporter and too stupid to understand the larger ramifications of just going along with everything he wants. He very easily breaks with people he calls his best friends; this is not ahistorical at all, and he is still likely to damage the military, diplomatic, and intelligence apparatus that supports genocide, as he already did. Pleasant Friend posted:Not voting supports genocide. So if you don't vote in Vermont you're a genocide supporter because of that?
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Dec 10, 2023 18:51
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Kagrenak posted:Oh, do we all agree now? I certainly don't, my other trans and queer friends largely don't. They understand that the fight for Palestine is elsewhere, not in November on the ballot. We lost the chance to have it there. My friends understand the fight against genocide has to come from direct action and winning influence: it's on the streets, it's changing minds, it's forcing them to reconsider, it's in the primaries. We understand that in November, you hold your nose for the day and then you go back to doing the groundwork that actually makes a difference on the issues that aren't on the ballot this time. That's how you vote for the lesser of two evils and don't make yourself complicit. Why are you acting like voting is the start and end of political actions and your personal endorsements? Didn't mean to say that all of these communities are monolithic. They aren't of course. However, it isn't a foregone conclusion that these communities want people to vote for someone who supports genocide in order to save these communities. Bar Ran Dun posted:All this death and loss isn’t about US politics. The genocide in Gaza is about US politics since the US is actively supporting the genocide. This whole conversation popped off because Biden bypassed Congress to sell tank shells to Israel.
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Dec 10, 2023 18:52
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theCalamity posted:The genocide in Gaza is about US politics since the US is actively supporting the genocide. This whole conversation popped off because Biden bypassed Congress to sell tank shells to Israel. Israel and Saudi Arabia were going to normalize relations.
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Dec 10, 2023 18:58
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mawarannahr posted:He very easily breaks with people he calls his best friends; this is not ahistorical at all, and he is still likely to damage the military, diplomatic, and intelligence apparatus that supports genocide, as he already did. Yes. But the biggest genocide supporters are the people who actively preach to other people how they don't vote, implicitly trying to shame and convince other people to do the same, which is tangibly indistinguishably from campaigning for Trump and for Russian interests.
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Dec 10, 2023 18:58
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Misunderstood posted:Yeah, even beyond an American collapse not preventing international consequence... from a domestic standpoint, I've always wondered how a far left social democratic or Communist government, imposed through whatever means necessary, would survive, when 30-40% of the population absolutely loathed it and was heavily armed to boot. It would end up like the early Soviet Union or Red China, a paranoid authoritarian state that is, yes, unwilling to loosen its hold, but is also on some level unable to, because there actually is a massive anti-leftist contingent that would take advantage of functioning democratic systems. If revolution didn't kick off in 2020 with the pandemic and the BLM riots, it's just not going to happen in the US for the foreseeable. As much as I like the idea of the American Red Army shooting Republicans, that's not gonna happen either. The best we can hope for, if you're foolish enough to hope, is a slow grinding decline managed by the Dems until climate change kills us all.
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Dec 10, 2023 19:03
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Is it time for the weekend "Lesser of Two Evils" fight? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 10, 2023 19:10
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Nucleic Acids posted:If Joe Niden loses it will be his fault and that of the Democrats for running him in the first place, not the people who refuse to vote for him because of his complicity in a genocide. Exactly. If this is The Most Important Election Of Our Lifetime and Democracy Is On The Line, then maybe spend 2020-2024 prepping a less flawed candidate or delivering meaningful material results to the voters you're depending on? Don't tell me incumbents always run for reelection: Biden heavily dangled being a 1 term president during his campaign, he's clearly aging out of the job requirements, and they're claiming democracy is Over if the next president isn't a Democrat. Rolling out the same tired and (fatally?) flawed administration for a second time doesn't meet the moment to face what the Democrats say is an existential threat. If democracy is on the ballot then they should have acted like it. The economy not in good shape, and Biden can't point at Trump or use COVID as a shield this time. You can't expect the voters to take a big bite of the proverbial poop sandwich and vote for you anyway. Trump's a horrible guy but his decision to throw cash directly at Operation Warp Speed was the right decision and saved a ton of lives. And his decision to pay the voters with direct checks was the right decision as well, and was more direct material support than I've seen from Democrats in my 40 years on Earth. Biden has fallen short of a horrible man and a horrible president. FistEnergy fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Dec 10, 2023 |
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Dec 10, 2023 19:16
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah, it opened the door for wage labor and modern capitalism by creating a labor shortage. Why do you guys keep thinking I want this? Someone asked for examples of societal collapse leading to positive outcomes. I provided them. Bellmaker posted:Also Japan has also been basically had one right-wing party (LDP) ruling since 1955 with a couple small gaps so I wouldn't exactly hold them up as a bastion of positive change. I’m willing to say that modern day Japan is a significant improvement over Imperial Japan, politically.
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Dec 10, 2023 19:18
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So your primary works cited on why trump is better is that he just straight up bribed the voters in a one off. Praxis is when the minorities go in the crusher so i can get a thousand dollars. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 10, 2023 19:25
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Byzantine posted:It would end up like the early Soviet Union or Red China, a paranoid authoritarian state that is, yes, unwilling to loosen its hold, but is also on some level unable to, because there actually is a massive anti-leftist contingent that would take advantage of functioning democratic systems. Byzantine posted:The best we can hope for, if you're foolish enough to hope, is a slow grinding decline managed by the Dems until climate change kills us all. FistEnergy posted:Exactly. If this is The Most Important Election Of Our Lifetime and Democracy Is On The Line, then maybe spend 2020-2024 prepping a less flawed candidate or delivering meaningful material results to the voters you're depending on? 2. The administration is delivering a lot of material results, as much as people like to pretend they don't. I am not going to list them all. If you really, honestly don't think there has been a benefit to Biden being President the last three years... I mean, I don't know how you could possibly, ever, in a million years think that, but if you do, then please look up the information from a source that isn't right wing or left wing. Gripweed posted:Why do you guys keep thinking I want this? Someone asked for examples of societal collapse leading to positive outcomes. I provided them.
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Dec 10, 2023 19:28
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Fister Roboto posted:You're dismissing someone's legitimate concerns over the Palestinian genocide as "not wanting to get cooties". Let's put it this way, then: voting for Joe Biden is not going to affect the condition of your soul because:
More than that, letting right wingers into power by making a meaningless gesture where the only benefit is that you feel better for yourself stands a very real chance of literally killing me. It comes down to that, and I don't think it's inappropriate to characterize it as a childish dipshit idea like "avoiding cooties." Because right wingers getting more power literally threatens my life, and the lives of every disabled, minority, and LGBTQ+ person in the US, and you're worried about avoiding getting Joe Biden Cooties.
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Dec 10, 2023 19:44
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Jesus III posted:Is it time for the weekend "Lesser of Two Evils" fight? We'll get variations on the theme because it's directly addressing the sort of accelerationisn or anti-electoralism that, if I'm describing them neutrally, strongly suggests, advocates, or insists that progressives and leftists should disengage from the electoral system because it prolongs a net negative decline versus conservatives winning, then they just do what they want and the outcome will be a strong hard "shock" collapse, asserted as the only viable way they will be able to have a revolution that moves us past our current decline in a timeframe to address future issues like climate change And if I'm describing them non-neutrally, they're the people who want to feed families like mine into a woodchipper so that they can play out the non tradright equivalent of doomer apocalypse prepping for the Better Afterwards! where society will be reconstructed by the revolutionary overclass of those who had the most discord arguments about theory while not filing a single foodbank pantry
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Dec 10, 2023 19:47
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Misunderstood posted:Okay, just wanted to make sure I wasn't mistaken about this position being very anti-(small d)emocratic. I will readily admit to being down on democracy, because Kentucky is a small-d democracy and it is poo poo. A democracy that freely, openly, and fairly elects Mitch McConnell is worthless. Also anybody who thinks Trump is or was better is a loving moron, although I do miss the BernieBucks and definitely feel sympathy-anger at how that's never gonna happen again.
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Dec 10, 2023 19:47
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Agents are GO! posted:Let's put it this way, then: voting for Joe Biden is not going to affect the condition of your soul because: I don't care how you rationalize it, I'm just asking you to show some basic humanity and understanding and not minimize people's anger over a literal loving genocide. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 10, 2023 19:53
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To tie this into the previous circular slapfight, I wonder how much of the disconnect between economic indicators being what was traditionally thought of as good, and people feeling that the economy is bad, comes down to the looming shadow of Trump and a possible second term.
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Dec 10, 2023 19:54
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Getting money from the government a few times was the result of flailing shock by an establishment that had no idea what was going on or what would happen. There can never be a shock like that again unless it’s a different kind of catastrophe nobody can imagine (solar flare that kills the electric grid? Ecological collapse?). Even then, it was basically them trying to guess what a poor person would consider a fair amount of money before they dumped billions into the stock market to keep it up for about nine hours.
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Dec 10, 2023 19:56
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Agents are GO! posted:More than that, letting right wingers into power by making a meaningless gesture where the only benefit is that you feel better for yourself stands a very real chance of literally killing me. It comes down to that, and I don't think it's inappropriate to characterize it as a childish dipshit idea like "avoiding cooties." Because right wingers getting more power literally threatens my life, and the lives of every disabled, minority, and LGBTQ+ person in the US, and you're worried about avoiding getting Joe Biden Cooties. Characterizing not wanting to vote for someone who supports genocide as not wanting to get cooties is wild and minimizes the genocide that is happening. I’m not worried about getting cooties. I’m worried about voting for someone who supports genocide. Besides, I live in a red state. My vote for president isn’t going to matter. What you should be worrying about are the potentially thousands of Palestinian and Arabs Americans in swing states like Michigan. If they choose to stay home, Biden could very well lose. Are you going to tell the Palestinian Americans that they’re too worried about getting Joe Biden cooties while Biden continues to support the murder of their friends and families? https://www.axios.com/2023/12/02/muslim-americans-swing-states-anti-biden-campaign quote:Muslim Americans in several swing states are scheduled to gather in Michigan on Saturday to start a campaign they're calling #AbandonBiden, a reflection of their outrage over President Biden's handling of the Israel-Hamas war. theCalamity fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Dec 10, 2023 |
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Dec 10, 2023 20:01
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Fister Roboto posted:I don't care how you rationalize it, I'm just asking you to show some basic humanity and understanding and not minimize people's anger over a literal loving genocide. And I don't care how you rationalize it, I'm asking you to show some empathy and not enable fascists to kill me because you're worried about maintaining your moral purity. I put it that way because do you think that not voting for Joe Biden will lead to a better outcome for Palestinians? If your answer is no, and you still won't vote to keep fascists out of power, then you're voting solely on how voting makes you feel about yourself and not about material conditions. That, as I said, is a position that is worthy of derision.
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Dec 10, 2023 20:02
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Staluigi posted:We'll get variations on the theme because it's directly addressing the sort of accelerationisn or anti-electoralism that, if I'm describing them neutrally, strongly suggests, advocates, or insists that progressives and leftists should disengage from the electoral system because it prolongs a net negative decline versus conservatives winning, then they just do what they want and the outcome will be a strong hard "shock" collapse, asserted as the only viable way they will be able to have a revolution that moves us past our current decline in a timeframe to address future issues like climate change Did we not just have someone advocate not just not voting or voting for nonviable candidate, but actually voting for Trump within the last several pages, as the way to effect the desired change? This discussion is always baited into existence by someone posting “well I for one refuse to vote for someone who supports x” after which several people take the bait and we are off to the races for five pages or so. If those kind of bait posts are not penalized this will keep happening. It would be great if people also did not take the bait.
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Dec 10, 2023 20:02
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If Biden loses because he lost the support of people who care about the lives of Muslims, then the Democrats might learn that they need to change their policies to court those voters.
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Dec 10, 2023 20:04
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