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I'd've just said "calls for genocide are unacceptable"
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Dec 12, 2023 16:56
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FlamingLiberal posted:The whole thing was a setup, yes. The right used this whole idea that antisemitism is just rampant on every college campus as an excuse to accuse these major college presidents of allowing it. There was no way for them to ‘win’ the hearing. It was also very telling that they chose three women, including the second black president of an Ivy League university and Harvard's first black president. Peter Salovey of Yale, for example, is an older Jewish gentleman and was not going to be as easy of a target. zoux posted:I'd've just said "calls for genocide are unacceptable" Exactly. They seemed to view the hearings as a classroom or maybe a trial (in Magill's (the UPenn president's) case, as she was a former law school professor), where nuance and nitpicking is king. This was actually political theater and they played into the trap. Eric Cantonese fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Dec 12, 2023 |
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Dec 12, 2023 16:57
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Mendrian posted:I mean you can't really make this comparison. Yes, the NYT/CNN/Fox existed in 2004 but they didn't mean the same thing then as they do now. Crucially, click-bait media had not yet evolved yet and hot-takes didn't really exist yet. Most internet media was still taking cues from real life media. Also it's worth noting that the late 90s/early 00's were the birthplace of modern centrism, we were coming off of years of 'actually neither side is correct and everybody would be better off if politicians would agree on things.' 9/11 really marked the beginning of extreme right-wing perspectives - it became much more culturally acceptable to scream violent, anti-immigrant, Islamaphobic nonsense and likewise the left started to galvanize in opposition to that. 'The left' as we know it today hadn't yet organized even the extremely low bar we have today. Most of SA was still making fun of furries. Although i agree with this post overall, I'd have to say the bit about hot takes isn't really accurate. The pivot from journalism to pundit panels was long underway by the 2000s, in part sparked by the slow rise of internet news; it was a lot cheaper to hire some nepo baby to spout 'provocative' opinions at a round table or in an op-ed than it was to produce an equal amount of news copy, and it didn't seem to hurt ratings any.
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Dec 12, 2023 17:06
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Eric Cantonese posted:Too bad the setbacks in NY helped lose the House to the GOP... Weren't a lot of those losses due to gerrymandering? At least I seem to recall that there's a lawsuit about redistricting that's set to net the House several Dem seats. Maybe I'm confusing state house and Congress?
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Dec 12, 2023 17:09
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:Although i agree with this post overall, I'd have to say the bit about hot takes isn't really accurate. The pivot from journalism to pundit panels was long underway by the 2000s, in part sparked by the slow rise of internet news; it was a lot cheaper to hire some nepo baby to spout 'provocative' opinions at a round table or in an op-ed than it was to produce an equal amount of news copy, and it didn't seem to hurt ratings any. For comparison, Jon Stewart's infamous on-air murder of Crossfire happened in 2004
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Dec 12, 2023 17:10
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Dems severely underperformed in NY state in the midterms. Especially in areas closer to the NYC media area.
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Dec 12, 2023 17:11
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DarkHorse posted:Weren't a lot of those losses due to gerrymandering? At least I seem to recall that there's a lawsuit about redistricting that's set to net the House several Dem seats. The Dems would have laid out the districts to be more advantageous if not for the NY Court of Appeals (the supreme court equivalent) striking down their attempts. It's still being hashed out right now. https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/15/redistricting-new-york-00127438 That being said, even if NY had gotten the map NY Dems wanted back in 2022, the margins in places like Long Island had eroded so much that various NY GOP reps won with very tight margins. A lot of it was context and bad messaging work from the NY Democratic party. It wasn't like they got an unwinnable map in 2022.
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Dec 12, 2023 17:14
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DarkHorse posted:Weren't a lot of those losses due to gerrymandering? At least I seem to recall that there's a lawsuit about redistricting that's set to net the House several Dem seats. The maps imposed by the court were a big part of it, but the Dems severely underperformed in New York, especially NYC. The Republican candidate for Governor got 47% of the vote. The appeals court is actually releasing a decision on the lawsuit to overturn the current map and give the legislature another try for 2024 through 2030 this afternoon. So, that will be a fairly important decision.
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Dec 12, 2023 17:18
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Charlz Guybon posted:WTF is up with this thread title? The forum has recognized my wisdom
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Dec 12, 2023 17:21
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EDIT: Accidental double post.
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Dec 12, 2023 17:24
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The maps imposed by the court were a big part of it, but the Dems severely underperformed in New York, especially NYC. The Republican candidate for Governor got 47% of the vote. He parrots GOP talking points on crime and immigration that just benefits Republicans
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Dec 12, 2023 17:30
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FlamingLiberal posted:I personally blame Eric Adams for a lot of this I would not be surprised if it turns out he was a GOP sleeper agent. He is an amazing combination of right wing talking points, administrative incompetence and corruption. The fact that he prevailed in the primary has really shaken my faith in the idea of ranked choice voting. That being said, I think Holchul and the whole NY Democratic apparatus just did not know how to respond to Zeldin's catchy CRIME CRIME CRIME campaigning. It really doesn't help that a lot of the NY Democratic apparatus really didn't understand or believe in good things like bail reform and economic aid so they just got evasive and voters don't like evasive. You need to answer it. Also, and this might be a product of my own upbringing during a less enlightened time, Holchul also seemed like a charisma vacuum. She had no coattails for other candidates to ride, which is kind of understandable since she sort of Gerald Ford-ed her way to the big office in the first place.
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Dec 12, 2023 17:36
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Hochul vetoed some of the proposals like affordable housing and bail reform, right?
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Dec 12, 2023 17:38
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https://twitter.com/AlexThomp/status/1734580766758052172 Hunter Biden said that the attacks on him are specifically meant to hurt Biden emotionally quote:“What they’re trying to do is they’re trying to kill me, knowing that it will be a pain greater than my father could be able to handle, and so therefore destroying a presidency in that way,” Hunter Biden said in the interview published Friday. Hard to argue against.
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Dec 12, 2023 17:42
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FlamingLiberal posted:Hochul vetoed some of the proposals like affordable housing and bail reform, right? Hochul vetoed a bill to form a committee to study affordable housing solutions, but actually has supported some good housing policies (that died in the legislature). She didn't veto a bill related to bail reform, but she did support and sign a bill earlier this year that repealed parts of the 2019 bail reform bill.
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Dec 12, 2023 17:42
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Fork of Unknown Origins posted:Not sure at all which is why I’m wondering if they’d have the vote if they didn’t know it’ll pass. They did seem to have a few people briefing to the media that it was overblown, though I don't have the article handy (it was posted maybe 5-10 pages ago?). Even if they fail to get the majority though, it still might make #hunterbiden trend or whatever though, and articles will probably include that he is on trial for tax fraud and got the plea deal rescinded or whatever. I think they are trying to keep the oxygen on the fire, even if they don't have any more wood. The bad news is that the actual trial for Hunter will be active going into next year, and what they want is for that to be getting parallel coverage to Trump. If Hunter gets cleared and Trump doesn't they will run with "political bias", if both are guilty they will run with "he does it too", and if Trump gets off they run with "vindicated". Obviously Hunter and Joe are two different people and they have basically no evidence that Joe was aware of any of this. That won't make a difference to the people they are trying to whip into a frenzy - the ticker will just say BIDEN JAILED FOR TAX FRAUD or whatever and no one is going to change their mind when you say "no, that was Hunter, Joe didn't do anything" With the personalization of news media I don't think there is any meaningful consequences for doing this - Joe Biden doesn't have enough of an approval rating among independent voters for this to galvanize them or anything like that. The people who get served the incendiary articles are going to be the ones predisposed to believe it without question, so there's not going to be any blowback. The desired endpoint of this is getting persuadable people to say "politics is just backbiting nonsense, everyone is playing games" and lower turnout numbers back down, since they can't reliably win with a political minority otherwise. That said, it probably is impossible to really do that to the extent needed - they hosed it by pissing off the white suburban women with overturning Roe, and the stories about a woman fleeing Texas will get an equal or greater amount of play in the "people who already agree" media space on the Dems side. Obviously the polling numbers are bad right now and all, but having the advantage on non-presidential years for ages is how the Republicans got so enmeshed in state government and Congress, and it isn't as though they are running on the right things to sway swing states. It's possible that Trump will run on "I wrote you a check for the pandemic", but the rest of the party will definitely not make any promises to that effect, so even if the bad economics vibes persist I don't think they will be saying the right words to ride that wave. For what it matters, I think Biden will probably be able to take Michigan even if he loses voters in Arab communities because the automaker union wins were pretty big, and he has the right sort of reputation to do that kind of campaigning - Whitmer also seems to be pretty effective. Arizona has also had the governor flip recently, and I expect that might give a slight boost as well. Filling Sinema's seat will probably drive turnout there as well. It's maybe too early to have too much real analysis of all this, I don't know when the polls start being predictive but we probably aren't there yet. Still, I think the media environment is worth watching, and from what I can tell it seems like Trump's trial schedule will probably continue to be the biggest story for everyone but Fox next year, and stuff like this has no real poo poo of picking up steam like the Clinton email stuff did in 2016 - it will get Fox airtime, but I don't think it has any shot of being more than that
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Dec 12, 2023 17:45
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:She didn't veto a bill related to bail reform, but she did support and sign a bill earlier this year that repealed parts of the 2019 bail reform bill. Yeah. It was really annoying. The NY Dems took a measure that needed time to take and needed to be supported with data-driven arguments and instead just ran away with it like scared suburbanites who didn't want to read or learn. I understand it's a politically sensitive subject, but it is something that our justice system needs to take on instead of just being a conveyer belt for forcing people into get criminal records that can ruin their lives. I know this sounds like conspiracy theorist talk, but I suspect a bunch of conservative judges also wanted to ruin the measure so they didn't bother exercising the kind of discretion they could have exercised for dangerous situations because they knew would lead to blowback against bail reform. EDIT: Here's a link with some historical recounting of how bail reform got rolled out and rolled back. https://www.cityandstateny.com/policy/2023/05/not-so-brief-guide-new-yorks-bail-reform-evolution/385379/ I get mad thinking too much about this.
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Dec 12, 2023 17:50
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zoux posted:https://twitter.com/AlexThomp/status/1734580766758052172 The original charges for lying about having ever used drugs on a gun application and underpaying taxes are things that are basically never actually prosecuted by themselves and he is correct about that. The newer charges they just announced on Friday, if true, are things they probably would have gone after regardless. The original tax charges of underreporting your income usually gets a sternly worded letter and a demand that you pay the correct amount + interest + penalties and not a federal charge. However, the charges on Friday assert that he not only underpaid but knowingly filed a false tax return and tried to hide his income from tax assessments. Those would probably get charged on their own. Although, I guess you could argue that they might have never known about them if they didn't have a special counsel spend years going over everything related to his income for the original investigation about Burisma/China that turned up nothing.
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Dec 12, 2023 17:53
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FlamingLiberal posted:The whole thing was a setup, yes. The right used this whole idea that antisemitism is just rampant on every college campus as an excuse to accuse these major college presidents of allowing it. There was no way for them to ‘win’ the hearing. The Times has been insane about pushing this story. They’ve probably covered it more than literally any Biden policy proposal.
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Dec 12, 2023 18:04
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zoux posted:I'd've just said "calls for genocide are unacceptable"
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Dec 12, 2023 18:05
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Eric Cantonese posted:MIT isn't in the Ivy League. I'm trying to figure out what financial instrument by which Ackman was able to short Harvard before kicking this off, the entire thing is just his playbook for profiting off publicizing how much Company X sucks
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Dec 12, 2023 18:07
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Misunderstood posted:The Times has been insane about pushing this story. They’ve probably covered it more than literally any Biden policy proposal. I just think they know their reader base pretty well. It's like the Atlantic. A lot of their readers likely went to elite colleges and care a lot about what happens at them and also give these readers a good chance to feel like tough, older people who are better than all these new, younger snowflakes.
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Dec 12, 2023 18:08
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shame on an IGA posted:I'm trying to figure out what financial instrument by which Ackman was able to short Harvard before kicking this off, the entire thing is just his playbook for profiting off publicizing how much Company X sucks Is Ackman on the board? He probably wants to be on the board.
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Dec 12, 2023 18:09
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Eric Cantonese posted:I just think they know their reader base pretty well. It's like the Atlantic. A lot of their readers likely went to elite colleges and care a lot about what happens at them and also give these readers a good chance to feel like tough, older people who are better than all these new, younger snowflakes. It is also just a classic attention grabber where someone says something in Legalese that sounds terrible to the average person. It was a trap, but the University Presidents also walked into it and handled it about as terribly as possible. There did also seem to be some very obvious hypocrisy/dumb things in their code of conduct that they couldn't really defend. It is pretty dumb to say that using a slur against a group of people violates their code of conduct, but calls to genocide a group are okay "as long as they don't act on it" because they have a 100% commitment to free speech and don't regulate speech at all. It is both very dumb from a code of conduct policy standpoint and very dumb to phrase your answer specifically that way during a publicly televised hearing about anti-Semitism where you know that people are trying to catch you in a gotcha moment.
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Dec 12, 2023 18:15
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BougieBitch posted:They did seem to have a few people briefing to the media that it was overblown, though I don't have the article handy (it was posted maybe 5-10 pages ago?). Even if they fail to get the majority though, it still might make #hunterbiden trend or whatever though, and articles will probably include that he is on trial for tax fraud and got the plea deal rescinded or whatever. Pretty much this, yeah. The Obama years were full of things like this: it's a signalling bill. If they can do it, great! They stretch it out longer. If they fail, it doesn't matter because the news will spend more time on how ~*~Joe Biden's Son~*~ may or may not be a criminal. What's the cost? Legislative time they were going to try and do nothing with anyway?
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Dec 12, 2023 18:18
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zoux posted:https://twitter.com/AlexThomp/status/1734580766758052172 Yeah, there is a lot to hit Biden in politics and such but he does seem genuinely empathetic and does actually love his family. If I remember correctly he loving HATES Lindsay graham for helping kick off all this poo poo because Lindsay helped kick all this poo poo off. Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The original charges for lying about having ever used drugs on a gun application and underpaying taxes are things that are basically never actually prosecuted by themselves and he is correct about that.
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Dec 12, 2023 18:21
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:It is also just a classic attention grabber where someone says something in Legalese that sounds terrible to the average person. It was a trap, but the University Presidents also walked into it and handled it about as terribly as possible. But also, the Republican party does not care about this issue. The media has literally chosen to ignore the party of Jews Will Not Replace us and the neo-nazi's that have infiltrated the GOP. Why are they getting weight as if their complaints are rooted in anything moral?
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Dec 12, 2023 18:28
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Mooseontheloose posted:But also, the Republican party does not care about this issue. The media has literally chosen to ignore the party of Jews Will Not Replace us and the neo-nazi's that have infiltrated the GOP. Why are they getting weight as if their complaints are rooted in anything moral? The republican position on protected speech on college campuses since the early 90s contradicts their recent concern with regulating what students say there as well. Take a time machine to three months ago and see if they think college kids calling for genocide should be punished.
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Dec 12, 2023 18:41
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Mooseontheloose posted:Is anyone else baffled by the media coverage of the Ivy League Presidents. Like the collective memory of our national media that the Republican's actually care about anti-semitism and letting them score points for their grandstanding? It's not just Republicans playing the political theater which is why it's getting more play from news orgs who normally would drop it because it's just right wing theater. If Republicans and Democrats are claiming it's anti-semitism it's going to get more air time and treated seriously. https://twitter.com/JoshKraushaar/status/1732453315068231781?s=20 Anti-zionism is anti-semitism is functionally accepted fact in Congress.
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Dec 12, 2023 18:47
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The university presidents hosed up so bad they didn't have much of a choice. https://twitter.com/josephzeballos/status/1734625637866823717 This would be nice
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Dec 12, 2023 18:48
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zoux posted:The university presidents hosed up so bad they didn't have much of a choice. I don't think you can gently caress up so bad that people are forced to pretend the shadow play is real. I think the Democrats who have spoken out likely just earnestly believe what they're saying. Or your right and they are making decisions based on what appeases fascists which would also be alarmingly bad.
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Dec 12, 2023 18:51
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Gumball Gumption posted:I don't think you can gently caress up so bad that people are forced to pretend the shadow play is real. I think the Democrats who have spoken out likely just earnestly believe what they're saying. Or your right and they are making decisions based on what appeases fascists which would also be alarmingly bad. Or appeases the voters in their districts. My personal anecdotal experience is only worth so much, but those responses went down really, really badly in the Jewish community where I live and those people vote and donate.
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Dec 12, 2023 19:02
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We’re there calls for genocide against Jews in campuses or was it the “from the river to the sea” slogan that people are twisting into a call for genocide in bad faith?
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Dec 12, 2023 19:09
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theCalamity posted:We’re there calls for genocide against Jews in campuses or was it the “from the river to the sea” slogan that people are twisting into a call for genocide in bad faith? I mean there are attacks against Jewish students happening. So there is a real safety threat to Jewish and Arab students nation wide.
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Dec 12, 2023 19:15
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People should probably stop picking slogans that they have to constantly explain. You'd think that would've been the lesson of "Defund the Police" but I guess not. But I guess if it didn't have that transgressive radical hint to it, they'd chant something else. https://twitter.com/RonFilipkowski/status/1734229055518408799 Obviously you can't take anything he says at face value but lmao at having this guy outside the tent pissing in.
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Dec 12, 2023 19:15
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Mooseontheloose posted:I mean there are attacks against Jewish students happening. So there is a real safety threat to Jewish and Arab students nation wide. Would you mind copy/pasting the text of the article? It's paywalled for me.
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Dec 12, 2023 19:19
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Would you mind copy/pasting the text of the article? It's paywalled for me. From the Boston Globe: quote:During a campus event honoring the hostages taken by Hamas, Efe Erçelik, a University of Massachusetts Amherst student, allegedly approached a group of Jewish classmates and said, “[Y]ou aren’t allowed to eat pork, so why are you walking around like fat [expletive] pigs,” according to a police report.
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Dec 12, 2023 19:20
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My friend had people outside her synagogue protesting. Just a random synagogue in Austin. Same one that had an arson attempt against it in '21 that caused extensive damage. She's very stressed out about it.
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Dec 12, 2023 19:23
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zoux posted:People should probably stop picking slogans that they have to constantly explain. This isn't possible because bad faith actors are going to constantly pick apart whatever other slogan they come up with. Also nobody "picked" from the river to the sea. The Palestinian liberation movement didn't vote to use that slogan.
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Dec 12, 2023 19:30
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Gumball Gumption posted:It's not just Republicans playing the political theater which is why it's getting more play from news orgs who normally would drop it because it's just right wing theater. If Republicans and Democrats are claiming it's anti-semitism it's going to get more air time and treated seriously. Uhh... "calling for the genocide of the Jews" and "advocating for another holocaust" are a little more than "anti-Zionism." That actually seems like a slam on anti-Zionism. theCalamity posted:We’re there calls for genocide against Jews in campuses or was it the “from the river to the sea” slogan that people are twisting into a call for genocide in bad faith? They were specifically asked if "calling for the genocide of the Jews" and "advocating for another holocaust" would violate their code of conduct. One of them said it was "context dependent" and the other said it was not a violation of the code of conduct, but if they "acted on it" in a significant way, then it might be considered against the code of conduct. They also said that the only reason it wouldn't be against the code of conduct is because they are 100% in support of free speech and they have a policy that they don't regulate speech, then answered, "Yes" when asked if using a slur was against the code of conduct. It was absolutely a trap question, but they walked into it and answered in the worst possible way. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Dec 12, 2023 |
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Dec 12, 2023 19:31
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