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Are AT weaponry with top-down attack modes in Hamas' inventory at all? I get that "cope cages" are basically free, if minimal, extra protection, but from what I understood from the Ukraine thread, it appeared specially as a reaction to the numerous top-down attack munitions that Ukraine had been supplied with for anti-armor defense.
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Dec 12, 2023 14:57
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:https://x.com/AnimalFriendsSh/status/1734504427199869167?s=20 Focusing on the suffering animals might be a better inroad with Western liberals than 10,000 dead brown children.
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Dec 12, 2023 14:57
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Slashrat posted:Are AT weaponry with top-down attack modes in Hamas' inventory at all? I get that "cope cages" are basically free, if minimal, extra protection, but from what I understood from the Ukraine thread, it appeared specially as a reaction to the numerous top-down attack munitions that Ukraine had been supplied with for anti-armor defense. Quadcopter drones are basically top-down attack AT weapons
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Dec 12, 2023 15:05
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Slashrat posted:Are AT weaponry with top-down attack modes in Hamas' inventory at all? I get that "cope cages" are basically free, if minimal, extra protection, but from what I understood from the Ukraine thread, it appeared specially as a reaction to the numerous top-down attack munitions that Ukraine had been supplied with for anti-armor defense. Drones carrying grenades have been a significant element of their arsenal, and have been the chief reason for the IDF to adopt cope cages.
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Dec 12, 2023 15:06
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Paladinus posted:According to the IDF, at least 20 out of the 105 confirmed Israeli soldiers killed in Gaza were due to friendly fire and accidents. From their perspective, this is a more "acceptable truth." Accidents are going to happen on a battlefield; they're dangerous places. If you attribute 20% of your deaths to random chance, it downplays the enemy's competence and skill. Which is a necessity when facts aren't cooperating with your stated position of superiority. It's spinning bad news into a proclamation that we're still the best. One in five deaths are unrelated to enemy action, and are just a side effect of how deadly and powerful we are.
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Dec 12, 2023 15:31
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moths posted:From their perspective, this is a more "acceptable truth." Accidents are going to happen on a battlefield; they're dangerous places. If you attribute 20% of your deaths to random chance, it downplays the enemy's competence and skill. See also Putin claiming that sometimes Russian ships just explode randomly for no reason every time they lose a prestigious ship to a country without a navy
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Dec 12, 2023 15:45
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Google Jeb Bush posted:Eh. I think if the proposition is a simple "Biden should evaluate whether he'll lose more votes by being pro Israel or being anti Israel", the answer is going to be very unpleasant. We also seem to be working with the assumption that the GOP will be quiet and not vocally criticize Biden for not being "pro-Israel" enough. (I seem to be finding a good number of "bring back Trump!" pieces in various not-quite-mainstream Jewish news sources already. For example: https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-776936.) The GOP might be smart enough to stay mum and let the issue do whatever damage it can do to the US Democratic voter coalition without getting in the mix, but it's a long time until November 2024.
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Dec 12, 2023 16:01
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Biden is doing these things because he believes in them, not because he's crunching numbers trying to triangulate the most electorally beneficial position. He's a genuine Zionist.
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Dec 12, 2023 16:07
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Eric Cantonese posted:We also seem to be working with the assumption that the GOP will be quiet and not vocally criticize Biden for not being "pro-Israel" enough. (I seem to be finding a good number of "bring back Trump!" pieces in various not-quite-mainstream Jewish news sources already. For example: https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-776936.) the jpost is like Israeli Fox News fwiw
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Dec 12, 2023 16:09
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KillHour posted:Biden is doing these things because he believes in them, not because he's crunching numbers trying to triangulate the most electorally beneficial position. He's a genuine Zionist. Yeah I think this keeps getting lost in the sauce. Biden is a Zionist had has been for decades. This isn't political calculus it's core belief. Which honestly makes pressuring him that much harder but also that much more necessary, imo
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Dec 12, 2023 16:09
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Yup, Biden is Zionists brained to the max which is why he's going to lose and Israel will be the downfall of the United States.
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Dec 12, 2023 16:26
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moths posted:From their perspective, this is a more "acceptable truth." Accidents are going to happen on a battlefield; they're dangerous places. If you attribute 20% of your deaths to random chance, it downplays the enemy's competence and skill. Half the coalition casualties in desert storm were friendly fire and they still killed Iraqis at a ludicrous ratio overall. Russia and Ukraine don’t report friendly fire but I know it happens there bc I talk to Russian soldiers. I think this is just par the course in modern warfare tbh, especially when open warfare is so rare for soldiers to see
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Dec 12, 2023 16:38
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BDS got Puma to finally stop renewing its contract with the Israeli Football Association https://bdsmovement.net/news/bds-win-puma-forced-drop-sponsorship-israel-football-association
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Dec 12, 2023 17:03
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moths posted:From their perspective, this is a more "acceptable truth." Accidents are going to happen on a battlefield; they're dangerous places. If you attribute 20% of your deaths to random chance, it downplays the enemy's competence and skill. DarklyDreaming posted:See also Putin claiming that sometimes Russian ships just explode randomly for no reason every time they lose a prestigious ship to a country without a navy Good points. To me it still sets them in a worse light, but maybe it works differently on domestic audiences.
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Dec 12, 2023 17:14
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Paladinus posted:According to the IDF, at least 20 out of the 105 confirmed Israeli soldiers killed in Gaza were due to friendly fire and accidents. You're always going to get accidental deaths in conflict, and generally around heavy plant. But 20% losses from it? That's either bollocks or incredibly damning of their training. It would be less embarrassing if they said they'd killed a dozen of their own people in one blue-on-blue strike against an APC or something. 'Cope cage' sneering has been a fantastic way to spot someone in a conversation who got their understanding of mechanised warfare from a I would be amazed if any country actually fitting them ever seriously considered that they would do anything to an ATGM while doing so. Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Dec 12, 2023 |
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Dec 12, 2023 17:25
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Paladinus posted:According to the IDF, at least 20 out of the 105 confirmed Israeli soldiers killed in Gaza were due to friendly fire and accidents. Reportage on the same statistic from ynet: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rkjqoobip but also includes the following: quote:The new figure of 20 casualties who fell specifically from operational accidents or friendly fire is minimal and doesn’t refer to the first three weeks preceding the ground escalation, regarding the casualties on October 7, nor does it include other fronts. The IDF refusing to investigate these suggests that either the FF incidents on and around 10/7 were staggering -- or that the IDF killed a whole lot of israeli civilians. This isn't a stretch considering the kibbutznik testimony or the interviews of the IDF soldiers giving statements that were basically like "we rolled in and just started blasting". Probably both.
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Dec 12, 2023 17:27
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Has there been a lot of domestic blowback for those people who were not reporting for duty out of protest against Netanyahu's judiciary power grab attempt?
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Dec 12, 2023 17:30
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Grem posted:Yup, Biden is Zionists brained to the max which is why he's going to lose and Israel will be the downfall of the United States. He's also out of sync with his own party. I was pleasantly surprised to see more Democrats sympathizing with Palestinians than Israelis in this WSJ poll, but almost half sympathize with "both equally" which I find hard to understand.  Strong Republican support for Israel, but that shouldn't be a huge surprise. WSJ article is here but paywalled: https://www.wsj.com/politics/majority-of-americans-back-israel-as-democrats-split-over-war-with-hamas-wsj-poll-finds-030f22c2?page=1 I can post it if people would like, didn't want to spam the thread.
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Dec 12, 2023 17:53
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Half the coalition casualties in desert storm were friendly fire and they still killed Iraqis at a ludicrous ratio overall. I don't doubt that, but I do wonder if dessert storm's numbers were atypically high due to interagency and international friction within the coalition. It looks like the US alone suffered 35 friendly deaths in DS - so granting Israel's numbers: Israel is claiming to have oops'd more than half what the US did in all of Desert Storm - in a single month. Maybe the IDF is that bad. I'd guess their numbers are a nightmare combination of downplaying enemy action (sometimes ships just explode,) the Hannibal deaths, sincere incompetence, slow-walking bad news, and Israel's propaganda tightrope of enemy being both weak and powerful. Is anyone independently trying to count these numbers? I feel like you could add up Hamas videos and get more than 105 but I don't have the capacity for that. E: quote:
Holy poo poo. They might actually be that bad. If you add in October 7's indiscriminate blasting, things must get horrifying. moths fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Dec 12, 2023 |
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Dec 12, 2023 17:56
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moths posted:Maybe the IDF is that bad. i mean building to building combat in an urban environment sucks to hell and is very hard, but also yes the IDF probably has some competence drain that mirrors that of the overall government under likud
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Dec 12, 2023 18:02
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Remember that they haven’t fought a real war since 2006 when they invaded Lebanon The IDF has mostly become a force designed to put down insurrections and run the Occupation
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Dec 12, 2023 18:05
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DeadlyMuffin posted:I was pleasantly surprised to see more Democrats sympathizing with Palestinians than Israelis in this WSJ poll, but almost half sympathize with "both equally" which I find hard to understand. I suspect those respondents are trying to signal that they sympathize with Palestinians but don't want anyone to think that means they're antisemites.
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Dec 12, 2023 18:07
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moths posted:Is anyone independently trying to count these numbers? I feel like you could add up Hamas videos and get more than 105 but I don't have the capacity for that. Apparently per this Haaretz article: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...8e-d52f47ac0000 the IDF are only reporting around 15% of their casualties, based on the discrepancy between the IDF and israeli department of health. Full disclosure I'm basing this off a twitter summary of the article because I don't have a Haaretz account. Considering that the department of health is another government source I wouldn't be surprised if they're undercounting as well.
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Dec 12, 2023 18:07
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PeterWeller posted:I suspect those respondents are trying to signal that they sympathize with Palestinians but don't want anyone to think that means they're antisemites. I think you're underestimating how many people can answer every question with "both sides just need to come to the table and negotiate"
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Dec 12, 2023 18:11
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:Reportage on the same statistic from ynet: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/rkjqoobip but also includes the following: I usually hammer against what I believe(d) to be an overemphasis on friendly fire incidents on 10/7 (e.g., helicopters strafing Israeli civilians, etc.), but this particular wording on this particular website from this particular author is.... damning. Ynet isn't a crank website and Yoav Zitun seems like a regular military correspondent with a history. The wording leaves space for a "dozens vs hundreds" argument, but this is the most public, official acknowledgement of the scale of the friendly fire. I really don't know how Israel has managed to let its press stay so open and free with the current/recent government.
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Dec 12, 2023 18:25
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:Apparently per this Haaretz article: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...8e-d52f47ac0000 the IDF are only reporting around 15% of their casualties, based on the discrepancy between the IDF and israeli department of health. Full disclosure I'm basing this off a twitter summary of the article because I don't have a Haaretz account. If Israel's not counting the first three weeks, they're claiming half of the US's desert storm friendly kills in two weeks. If that's only 15% of the real numbers, IDF should be petitioning themselves for a ceasefire.
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Dec 12, 2023 18:30
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punishedkissinger posted:the jpost is like Israeli Fox News fwiw That's good to know. Can someone give me a quick rundown on the various Israeli news sources?
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Dec 12, 2023 18:35
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Eric Cantonese posted:That's good to know. Slightly more accurate breakdown with the ones im familiar with JPost- NY Post Times of Israel- Fox News Haaretz- Guardian
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Dec 12, 2023 18:39
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quote:Israel bad, blowing up concert goers and doing friendly fire If the enemy is mixed in, point blanc with the civilians that they are executing, of course heli gunners are going to fire into the group. The alternative is to just watch the militants discover and kill everyone. And once the gunmen know they've been spotted, they will use the exact same structures and vehicles for concealment as the remaining civilians are. This is a poo poo no-win situation, which the attackers fully intended to create. The IDF was forced to react to the attack and then do a pretty rapid push into hostile urban areas. Its not like the US planning in advance how to pick Iraq apart. Their casualties and friendly fire will be unsurprisingly huge.
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Dec 12, 2023 19:54
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Preen Dog posted:Their casualties and friendly fire will be unsurprisingly huge. These are surprisingly big numbers, even without annihilating a music festival with helicopter gunships. They aren't counting the first three "no fair we weren't ready" weeks, and are still on track to eclipse desert storm friendly kills.
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Dec 12, 2023 20:09
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Preen Dog posted:If the enemy is mixed in, point blanc with the civilians that they are executing, of course heli gunners are going to fire into the group. The alternative is to just watch the militants discover and kill everyone. And once the gunmen know they've been spotted, they will use the exact same structures and vehicles for concealment as the remaining civilians are. This is a poo poo no-win situation, which the attackers fully intended to create. I realize Israel believes it is worth killing Palestinian civilians en masse to get at Hamas, interesting to see its worth killing Israeli civilians en masse too. psycho poo poo Is there a ratio of Hamas::civilians where you wouldn't just gun a crowd down? Like even at 1% composition Hamas could easily still kill everyone in the crowd given time, so probably safer to just riddle everyone with bullets it to ensure a successful operation. Would it make sense to lock the doors to the building and burn it down in order to ensure Hamas doesn't escape?
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Dec 12, 2023 20:10
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hadji murad posted:Focusing on the suffering animals might be a better inroad with Western liberals than 10,000 dead brown children. It's not just the animals, the people caring for the cats are also suffering. The donations help them as well.
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Dec 12, 2023 20:39
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:It's not just the animals, the people caring for the cats are also suffering. The donations help them as well. Yes, the two brothers Samir and Tamir have run the sanctuary for years now, and they have made it clear that they are not going to abandon their cats no matter how bad it gets. They are in North Gaza, and my gut feeling is that they not only can't move because the cats can't be transported safely, they won't move because they refuse to be driven from their homes. They've said a few times, they will live or die together with their families, and that includes the cats.
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Dec 12, 2023 20:57
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Eric Cantonese posted:We also seem to be working with the assumption that the GOP will be quiet and not vocally criticize Biden for not being "pro-Israel" enough. (I seem to be finding a good number of "bring back Trump!" pieces in various not-quite-mainstream Jewish news sources already. For example: https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-776936.) the gop is going to start calling biden anti semitic. book it
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Dec 12, 2023 21:03
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celadon posted:Is there a ratio of Hamas::civilians where you wouldn't just gun a crowd down? Like even at 1% composition Hamas could easily still kill everyone in the crowd given time Yes, you start blasting at everything you think is the threat, or wait for the threat to reduce your friendlies to a level that makes you comfortable with your portion of guilt in the trolley problem. But there wouldn't be any such calulation in reality. The attack force size and composition was unknown, and IDFs goal would simply be to halt the incursion with all force available. Wasting time trying to snipe one attacker or even distinguish them means others can advance further. Everyone looks the same in thermal, and a captured civilian is much worse strategically than a dead one. The chopper crews are basically God, but on the flip side, everything looks like a manpad and a rifle bullet can kill them through the windshield. For any hope of survival, civilians would have to hide until ground forces could retake the area and ID them face to face, which is seen in video of the aftermath. Preen Dog fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Dec 12, 2023 |
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Dec 12, 2023 23:26
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ummel posted:I usually hammer against what I believe(d) to be an overemphasis on friendly fire incidents on 10/7 (e.g., helicopters strafing Israeli civilians, etc.), but this particular wording on this particular website from this particular author is.... damning. Ynet isn't a crank website and Yoav Zitun seems like a regular military correspondent with a history. The wording leaves space for a "dozens vs hundreds" argument, but this is the most public, official acknowledgement of the scale of the friendly fire. I'm still firmly of the belief that if you have a group of bodies - a considerable number, certainly in the many hundreds - burned so bad that a month later you're saying DNA/teeth analysis suggest that 200 of them are Hamas bodies, then you can easily suggest that almost certainly more than two hundred Israelis (assuming a loose 1:1 ratio for civilian to militant) were killed by the IDF alongside the burned Hamas members. I come back to the fact that if the IDF knew it was killing Hamas members then they could have isolated those groups of bodies. It's clear they were indistinguishable from the hostages. It's also likely that much of what has been filled in with active imaginations (whole families tortured to death and burned alive) are extrapolations from deaths by tank or other fire. Explosives and building collapses will absolutely shred bodies. They decapitate and mutilate and burn. Saying that, it's also clear that Hamas or other groups killed a large number of Israeli civilians. I suspect where civilians have been shot, a good proportion are victims of Hamas. Where their bodies have been burned/exist in collapsed buildings, it'll be from Israeli fire.
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Dec 13, 2023 01:28
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Young Freud posted:One of the things I recall about the Merkava is that the engine is in the front of the tank to provide additional crew protection and I can definitely think that may have been a compromise if they couldn't produce a front glacis thick enough to withstand most tanks. Merkava was originally designed back when everyone had HEAT rounds that could penetrate everyone's best armor, so no-one could prevent being penetrated. But also those HEAT rounds had so-so post-pen effects, especially if it hit something as solid as an engine block, so putting your engine up front behind the armor meant that after a hit, the crew would be alive and if the fire suppression system worked, the tank would be repairable. After people figured out ceramic composite armor, this line of thinking became a bit obsolete, but the Merkava already existed and there is significant industrial inertia, which means they still do that. (Which is also why almost no-one else did the front engine thing back when people thought it was a good idea.) cat botherer posted:Slat armor works really well whenever the slat spacing is smaller than the incoming round. Modern armor piercing rounds are usually shaped charges, designed to basically create a tight hypersonic jet of metal particles that can punch through. The slats disrupt and/or detonate the round before it makes contact with the armor, greatly reducing the effectiveness of the shaped charge. Note that if a round hits on the slat and detonates, it will likely pen. The added distance does nothing against any HEAT round designed after the 60's, in fact it probably helps penetration a little, modern designs want standoff. The point is to physically damage the round before it detonates, and this mostly works against the various older RPG/ATGM designs designed in the USSR, which have a fuze that will only work when the tip of the round makes contact with something, so whenever the tip "misses" the slat and the slat manages to bite into the body, it will just break the round before it contacts the vehicle. Javelins etc are prox-fuzed and have tandem charge warheads, meaning that they will detonate the first charge at a significant distance, clearing ERA and/or any cope cages from the target before the main charge detonates.
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Dec 13, 2023 01:28
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:It's not just the animals, the people caring for the cats are also suffering. The donations help them as well. That wasn't my point about liberals, but yes, it is a very good cause for people to support. I wish them well, and hope they don't get murdered and their pets don't starve to death under the genocide.
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Dec 13, 2023 01:39
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hadji murad posted:That wasn't my point about liberals, but yes, it is a very good cause for people to support. I wish them well, and hope they don't get murdered and their pets don't starve to death under the genocide. Aw, sorry, I misunderstood the tone of your post. I also deeply hope the brothers and their cats survive. Anyway, the UN has called for an immediate ceasefire: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hunger-rises-gaza-un-prepares-vote-ceasefire-resolution-2023-12-12/ Is this going to change anything moving forward? Like, are there going to be any meaningful consciences for Israel if they ignore this?
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Dec 13, 2023 02:14
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Mia Wasikowska posted:the gop is going to start calling biden anti semitic. book it They already are if you count the especially shameless right-wing internet personalities as the GOP
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Dec 13, 2023 02:29
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