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Vinylshadow posted:
LMAO the Target Novel is narrated by the Toymaker. Definitely getting this!
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Dec 13, 2023 01:13
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Vinylshadow posted:
Does X Rated mean something different in England?
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Dec 13, 2023 01:23
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 What do you think Clive is up to these days? Also, “Boy that Time War was crazy. Welp, I’m gonna go visit my mate up in Dallas.”
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Dec 13, 2023 01:24
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Detective No. 27 posted:
You haven't gotten to the end of the episode yet, have you? Edit: They have had him be a companion to Rose in some audios set on Rose's World, if you do want to see him again. But that series didn't last long.
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Dec 13, 2023 01:26
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Ah right. It’s been like fifteen years since I saw the episode last.
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Dec 13, 2023 01:28
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Big Mean Jerk posted:Wilder would’ve absolutely been the American Tom Baker. I'm pretty sure Peter Weller is on there. Buckaroo Banzai is basically what the Doctor made for the US would look like, honestly.
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Dec 13, 2023 01:35
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Sydney Bottocks posted:I took a look at that and found what I thought was something very interesting: Splitting the outfit was a cute idea, but they chose who got which parts and what parts there were to share in the first place. Thematically it makes less sense for him to have no pants, he is the version of the Doctor who knows what is going on, is confident, healthy, and prepared. Tenant is the one caught with their pants down to some degree, he was not prepared, it was very surprising and shocking to him and he should've been the one left more exposed. The iconography is not great the way they chose to split things.
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Dec 13, 2023 01:36
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), just a shirt and underwear. This was followed by roughly a zillion thirsty posts of people dismissing the OP's point by talking about how hot they think Gatwa is. To a certain extent (though not nearly as bad, thankfully), much the same thing happened in this subforum, with people commenting on the actor's attractiveness.
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It was a weird decision to have the actual Doctor take the duplicate Tardis. Why not have him take the original? Why duplicate the Tardis in the first place? The idea is that Tennant is settling down and living a normal life and getting over all the Daleks and Time Wars and things. Have him just live in a house then! Not sure I agree with the complaint about the underwear tho. Thirst posting about a man in his underwear is different from thirst posting about a woman in her underwear, come on. Plus it establishes him as having just "woken up", reflecting that this isn't episode 1 for him it's episode 0, and lets him either have a scene where he picks out his outfit or just has it for the first time in an episode where he isn't essentially a guest star. I can imagine that while everyone's fine watching Matt Smith run around in another man's raggedy old clothes, that also might not be a good look for the first Black Doctor E: I won't deny that to at least some extent the effect of having the first Black Doctor running around in his underwear is that there's an attractive man running around in his underwear. This may have been relevant to both the writer and the actor, both being LGBT, and it's also a little bit transgressive for a kids show- RTD's "gay agenda" stuff has always seemed less about flattering the viewers who are already on-side than about poking at the ones who aren't 2house2fly fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Dec 13, 2023 |
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Dec 13, 2023 01:37
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Covok posted:Does X Rated mean something different in England? I mean it's a show called Sex Education that has a lot of loving in it, I think is what he means. There's no actual X rating per se, it's more like a 15. But he's using it colloquially.
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Dec 13, 2023 01:38
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Khanstant posted:Splitting the outfit was a cute idea, but they chose who got which parts and what parts there were to share in the first place. Thematically it makes less sense for him to have no pants, he is the version of the Doctor who knows what is going on, is confident, healthy, and prepared. Tenant is the one caught with their pants down to some degree, he was not prepared, it was very surprising and shocking to him and he should've been the one left more exposed. The iconography is not great the way they chose to split things. Whether RTD intended it that way or not, it comes across as just another example of people of color in general, and black men in particular, being fetishized for their physical attractiveness. It's not a good look. 2house2fly posted:Not sure I agree with the complaint about the underwear tho. Thirst posting about a man in his underwear is different from thirst posting about a woman in her underwear, come on. Sorry, that's a load of nonsense.
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Dec 13, 2023 01:47
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2house2fly posted:Not sure I agree with the complaint about the underwear tho. Thirst posting about a man in his underwear is different from thirst posting about a woman in her underwear, come on. It is, for sure. Non-men tend to experience more structural oppression in terms of their appearance and in how they're observed. Men being objectified the way women used to be is therefore somewhat transgressive, and somewhat empowering in its own way. That said, if you're considering the objectification of men as a neutral or positive act, then you're largely making the argument that objectification is in itself -- at best -- a neutral action. Which is a fraught contention and one I don't quite agree with. Though it's to a lesser extent than what women experience, men -- particularly queer men -- suffer from body dysphoria, eating disorders, internal and external pressure to match up to certain expectations in terms of their looks.... objectification feeds into that process. Christopher Eccelston certainly felt it when he was working on Doctor Who, and it was part of the reason he bowed out of the program so quickly. Actors who are attractive get cast in more things than actors who are not (something that Davies has admitted to a few times is casting men in roles purely out of how attractive he found them, and, uh, you can tell they weren't cast for their performances). But on the other hand, I'm pro nudity and think that seeing images of human sexuality in narrative contexts (narrative contexts that aren't porn) is important. It's good to see hot people in hot situations, but I wish we'd broaden our idea of what counts as a hot person, and we'd just straightforwardly show more real looking people on screen. That's, ultimately, more transgressive than seeing hot men (the queer clone club) be objectified. and not just because it sometimes gets in the way of stories e.g. Donna's family apparently being poor. They've got a nice house, which the script explains away, but for people scraping to get by their hair was insane. Open Source Idiom fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Dec 13, 2023 |
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Dec 13, 2023 02:00
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The key point that the op in the reddit post was making was that, as a black person who's a Doctor Who fan and is excited to see the first black Doctor, they felt it was undignified for the first black Doctor to basically be running around in his drawers. Saying words to the effect of "it's ok because he's hot" is being very dismissive of that particular point (as well as handwaving away objectifying someone for their looks; however, that wasn't the op's original point but rather my own).
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Dec 13, 2023 02:23
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2house2fly posted:It was a weird decision to have the actual Doctor take the duplicate Tardis. Why not have him take the original? Why duplicate the Tardis in the first place? The idea is that Tennant is settling down and living a normal life and getting over all the Daleks and Time Wars and things. Have him just live in a house then!
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Dec 13, 2023 03:02
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Not a duplicate, a branching TARDIS.
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Dec 13, 2023 03:07
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I think both are fair points. Gatwa was half naked mainly because RTD found that to be hot which was not the best way to introduce the actor. And while at the moment I don't think Gatwa is being undermined by Tennant retaining the role (we'll see if he keeps popping up in the series), I also thought, "They're not letting the new guy stand on his own here." My instinct is telling me that it's going to be fine once he gets his own stories instead of being the catalyst of the ending RTD wanted to give to another story, but it's an absolutely fair criticism.
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Dec 13, 2023 03:07
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Another person further down in that reddit thread made the observation that RTD really doesn't write black characters in DW very well, especially his two main ones in his previous run on the show. -Mickey: gets dumped by Rose the moment 9 shows up, is constantly treated like an idiot and told he's an idiot, is a third wheel during his entire time aboard the TARDIS, eventually stays behind in a parallel universe after seeing a much smarter and braver version of himself get killed. -Martha: Hoo boy, did she ever get screwed over. Kissed by the Doctor without her consent, subsequently pines for him during their time together but is basically seen by the Doctor as not being good enough to take Rose's place, gets hit on by Shakespeare who uses every outdated Elizabethan slang term for "black woman" he can think of during that episode, is forced to hide her intelligence and skills to work as a maid while the Doctor enjoys status and prestige (and romance) as a schoolteacher in Edwardian England, and then spends a year walking around the goddamn Earth telling people how wonderful this guy (who's basically been making GBS threads on her the whole time) is. And then she doesn't even get to keep her engagement to the handsome fellow human doctor she met during that time, but gets saddled with loving Mickey instead. Yeah, I can kind of see that person's point about how RTD might mean well, but might also be somewhat clueless about black people and black culture in general.
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Dec 13, 2023 03:22
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Sydney Bottocks posted:The key point that the op in the reddit post was making was that, as a black person who's a Doctor Who fan and is excited to see the first black Doctor, they felt it was undignified for the first black Doctor to basically be running around in his drawers. Saying words to the effect of "it's ok because he's hot" is being very dismissive of that particular point (as well as handwaving away objectifying someone for their looks; however, that wasn't the op's original point but rather my own). Sorry, is this in reply to me? I'm not gonna wade into the politics of race surrounding Black people, but I think we're in agreement about the rest.
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Dec 13, 2023 03:25
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Open Source Idiom posted:Sorry, is this in reply to me? Not necessarily to you, I just wanted to reiterate the reddit op's main point so it didn't get obscured.
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Dec 13, 2023 03:28
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Detective No. 27 posted:Ah right. It’s been like fifteen years since I saw the episode last. Nah, I forgot that happened to when I rewatched it a few years ago. So, I get it. I watched The Talons of Weng-Chiang yesterday. It was...SUPER loving RACIST. Holy poo poo. Just so casually racist. Like it was a matter of fact. It actually was astounding. Like, it was like walking into a different world. And the villian was definitely a white guy in bad makeup. Holy loving hell was that uncomfortable... ...And yet the serial was pretty good in spite of it. I never watched Tom Baker before. I could listen to that man read me the phonebook and be enterained. His companion was some warrior woman and that was fun. And the Jago and Litefoot characters were fun. I completely get how Big Finish did 7 seasons out of them.
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Dec 13, 2023 03:41
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Leela is up there for most "for the dads" companion with that outfit, but also she's awesome and will kill you.
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Dec 13, 2023 03:46
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It's not like being a bad story would somehow make the racism "okay", but it is galling that Talons really is such a good story but you cannot in any way overlook how incredibly racist it is. I somehow always forget that after Chang gets abandoned and receives fatal injuries, his last act is to gently caress off to an opium den 
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Dec 13, 2023 03:50
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Gatwa running around in his undies is also kind of a bad look when you consider that 13's regeneration into 14 included Whittaker's outfit burning away to reveal Tennant wearing a completely different outfit. There's really no reason why 15 couldn't have bigenerated into existence fully dressed.
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Dec 13, 2023 04:37
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Could've also foreshadowed a different outfit that tenant will be wearing when he dies and resolves the paradox.
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Dec 13, 2023 05:39
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I can't find it now, but RTD said on digitalspy or radio times or somewhere that he'd anticipated fans would worry about whether Ncuti had the original or the duplicate or IF it's a duplicate, and assures us Ncuti has the same old TARDIS the doctor has always had. And then does one of his hinty things about how we'll have 'undisputable proof of that' this season.
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Dec 13, 2023 05:52
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I honestly think the Ncuti running around in his pants bit was just that... a joke. It does highlight the difference between men and women traditionally in media - i.e. man in pants, funny, woman in pants, titillating but for the show itself I'm sure the writers went "if they split what if they share clothes and ones in his pants!" and everybody laughed
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Dec 13, 2023 05:53
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MysticalMachineGun posted:I honestly think the Ncuti running around in his pants bit was just that... a joke. It does highlight the difference between men and women traditionally in media - i.e. man in pants, funny, woman in pants, titillating but for the show itself I'm sure the writers went "if they split what if they share clothes and ones in his pants!" and everybody laughed At the end of the day it's the first black Doctor running around in his underwear. Whether that's a good look for the first black Doctor or not, is ultimately down to the individual. I personally agree with those who think it's rather undignified and verging on objectification. Others don't. It is what it is. 
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Dec 13, 2023 06:12
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*second black Doctor
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Dec 13, 2023 06:50
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For me, the effect of fifteen enthusiastically running around in his underwear and not caring was, as well as being funny, that it gave the impression of him being on the post-regeneration high, same as eleven walking into a tree and throwing toast out the door and shouting at it and generally being hyper. Doctors are always very 'undignified' after a regeneration, that's an established part of it, and it manifests as either extreme confusion or being a bit hyper and manic, and the plot required that fifteen was very aware and not confused. And in terms of establishing the character it made him look very confident and kinda carefree, which is a major part of his character and how it contrasts to fourteen. Fifteen doesn't give a gently caress. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 07:33 on Dec 13, 2023 |
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Dec 13, 2023 07:24
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I don't want to be dismissive of any black goons take on this, but I wonder if there's an element of American vs UK/Europe going on here as well? American TV and viewers often seem to default to any sort of nudity being read as explicitly sexual, but to me as a Brit it also read more as comedic. This is a long running cultural difference both sides of the pond. It's not sexualising a black man if it's not sexualising anything. But then, RTD has a bit of a history with putting guys up on screen to thirst over - who boy did he find ways for Captain Jack to get his kit off back in the day a well - Trinny and Susana-bot being the one that's aged the least well. Not that Barrowman particularly needed any encouragement to take his clothes off, alas. I guess that voice I'm especially listening for is how any black Brits felt about it.
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Dec 13, 2023 09:10
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lines posted:The odd thing is I'm not sure an American Doctor works wholesale - I could absolutely imagine a version of the show that was American but in a sense it is so tied up - for good and ill - with various Britishisms. I've idly thought about this over the years as a Who fan, and one thing I've come to realized is that when it comes to American sci-fi TV series, is that most of them always involve some sort of chain of command. Whether or not that's a result of America's fetishism of the military complex, who can say? Even with Star Trek, with its "mission of peace", has a clear hierarchy baked into its structure. Whereas Doctor Who is just some person who travels. Yes, the companion will defer to The Doctor because they're a more experienced traveler, and knows more about the universe, but The Doctor has no authority over them to order them to obey their commands, and if the companion does defy them, there's no institutional punishment baked in. They're just friends, traveling about, having a lark.
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Dec 13, 2023 09:40
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The only doctor who America deserves is that cursed and crude knock off rick and morty.
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Dec 13, 2023 09:48
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Davros1 posted:Even with Star Trek, with its "mission of peace", has a clear hierarchy baked into its structure. And Star Trek really is the closest comparison existing, because they're both shows with the basic fundamental structure of 'Here are our characters, on a ship, that will take them to a new place each episode, and then anything can happen.' They're both shows where premise exists largely as a mechanism to drop the characters into any situation the writers could imagine.
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Dec 13, 2023 09:57
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I will admit by the way that the first time I wanted the episode I didn't notice he didn't have trousers on. Was just too engrossed in the story and in his performance.
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Dec 13, 2023 10:09
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DavidCameronsPig posted:American TV and viewers often seem to default to any sort of nudity being read as explicitly sexual, but to me as a Brit it also read more as comedic. This is a long running cultural difference both sides of the pond. It's not sexualising a black man if it's not sexualising anything. The reddit OP that started this wasn't talking about the sexualization. Some commenters dismissing the OPs concerns were going on to objectify him as part of their dismissal. Being half undressed was just one of several things working together that disappointed the OP.
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Dec 13, 2023 10:12
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lines posted:I will admit by the way that the first time I wanted the episode I didn't notice he didn't have trousers on. Was just too engrossed in the story and in his performance. Honestly, even setting aside the question of if he should've been wearing trousers, it is fun that they never call attention to it. It's just sort of background detail to the scene, no more important than what anyone else is or isn't wearing. In my mind it's also something of a contrast with The Christmas Invasion, where the robe Tennant was in (and its satsuma) was something of a recurring plot beat.
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Dec 13, 2023 10:27
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I think Ncutti running around in his underwear was particularly glaring because Davies had gone out of his way (too far out of his way, I think) to have Tennant not wearing Jodie's outfit. Which is really silly, but shows that he's sensitives as a writer were aligned with one group but maybe not another. Also, it would've made way more thematic sense for Tennant to be underdressed in that scene, literally with his pants down, as he took the backfoot to Ncutti being THE DOCTOR. Also, him telling off Ncutti for swearing whilst dressed as the Doctor makes total sense, as you don't want any leaked clips or audio of the Doctor swearing circling around, but it's really silly when you consider all the poo poo Barrowman and Clarke were getting up to on his first run.
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Dec 13, 2023 10:31
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PriorMarcus posted:Also, it would've made way more thematic sense for Tennant to be underdressed in that scene, literally with his pants down, as he took the backfoot to Ncutti being THE DOCTOR. See, like I said, from my point of view it makes more sense for Ncuti to be underdressed: Tennant's doctor is both literally and metaphorically tightly buttoned up, which is the whole problem that they're emphasising at that moment. Ncuti is free and easy. He's comfortable. If Tennant's doctor had been in his underwear it wouldn't have been in character for it to go unremarked and leave it, he would've been kinda awkward. But the fact that Ncuti doesn't care gives us a sense of his character. It acts to establish him. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 10:39 on Dec 13, 2023 |
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Dec 13, 2023 10:36
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MikeJF posted:It acts to establish him. This is a great counter argument to my point. Thank you.
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Dec 13, 2023 10:38
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I assume Ncuti also had some level of influence over how he was dressed - that is, I would like to think, at least, that if he hadn't wanted to dress that way he could have said no. Perhaps I'm being naive but I would imagine - RTD being pretty up to date with modern practices now I think and having done It's A Sin - that they had an Intimacy Coordinator for that exact reason. Anyone want to check the credits?
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Dec 13, 2023 10:49
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I did appreciate that once Ncuti turned up, he was very much The Doctor, and Tennant faded into the background a bit.
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Dec 13, 2023 10:50
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