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In the last paragraph of my cover letter I say words to the effect of: "Thank you to the panel for taking the time to review my application. I'm happy to provide further information at interview. I can be contacted at [mobile number]" They have your other contact information from the rest of the application typically.
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Dec 14, 2023 19:44
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What does a decent, generic cover letter look like? I'm not sure mine is worth a poo poo.
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Dec 14, 2023 21:48
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New Leaf posted:What does a decent, generic cover letter look like? I'm not sure mine is worth a poo poo. If its generic then yeah it's probably worthless. A cover letter that you use to send to the all jobs is probably going to be not very useful. That's not a criticism, it's what you mostly get when you ask for a cover letter. If you take time and craft one purposefully for that job, you want to show why your skills are a fit and that you've done a bit of research into that particular job. You can't do that for every job you apply for, but if you want to maximize your chances you should be doing that for jobs that looks like particularly good fits or dream jobs when they ask for a cover letter. If you want to post your cover here we can tell you if it's actively hurting you but most likely it's fluff if you use it generically.
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Dec 14, 2023 21:57
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Lockback posted:If its generic then yeah it's probably worthless. I think there is a middle ground between generic and custom-- I've had good success asking ChatGPT to create semicustom cover letters for me based on the job description and my resume. Even if I don't use the output directly, it gives me a good base to tweak.
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Dec 14, 2023 22:45
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Mantle posted:I think there is a middle ground between generic and custom-- I've had good success asking ChatGPT to create semicustom cover letters for me based on the job description and my resume. Even if I don't use the output directly, it gives me a good base to tweak. Yeah, this totally counts as custom, and a good idea (but always review tweak, never have something in your cover letter you can't speak to or backup). This is coming from me seeing 100s or probably 1000s of cover letters now and knowing that the vast majority are CLEARLY boilerplate and some/most even reference things that have nothing to do with my position. While this doesn't hurt, I will say a cover letter that shows that someone actually did some research and engaged with my posting can help a little, at least gets me in a better headspace when I dive into their resume and make my decision on move up or trash.
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Dec 14, 2023 22:49
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Cover letters are bullshit
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Dec 14, 2023 22:54
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If they're optional on an application, are you hurting your chances by not making one?
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Dec 14, 2023 23:35
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New Leaf posted:If they're optional on an application, are you hurting your chances by not making one? Mostly no. There is a small subset of hiring managers who might get a bug up their rear end, but you mostly don't want to work for them anyway. I always tell people to classify their job applications into "Gold Star" and Everything Else, with Gold Star being the 2 or 3 jobs a week that are worth spending extra time because they are a dream job or you are specifically well suited for. For those, I'd do a custom cover letter if there is an option because every little edge helps (don't do one if it's not called out though). For the rest, I personally wouldn't attach an optional one. Yes, 80% of the time it won't be read/won't matter but for those select few jobs the ROI is still worthwhile.
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Dec 14, 2023 23:48
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Had an extremely nebulous interview with the early stage start up CEO who doesn't know how schedules and timezones work. Couldn't give me a defined idea of what the role would entail outside of really vague concepts like managing all the functions and processes related to onboarding and customer success, didn't have a pay band ready, no details about amount of anticipated travel other than as needed, just extremely vague concepts all around, which makes sense since it's an early stage start up. Red flags all over the place but it still felt like a kick to the balls when I got the rejection email. I think it's because I refused to give a salary band. I wasn't about to throw out a number if they couldn't even lay out what I would do day to day, but they seemed kind of annoyed I wasn't going to throw out a number first. The final joke is on them though because I didn't even reply to the rejection email. Take that! Trickortreat fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Dec 16, 2023 |
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Dec 16, 2023 18:37
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Trickortreat posted:Had an extremely nebulous interview with the early stage start up CEO who doesn't know how schedules and timezones work. Couldn't give me a defined idea of what the role would entail outside of really vague concepts like managing all the functions and processes related to onboarding and customer success, didn't have a pay band ready, no details about amount of anticipated travel other than as needed, just extremely vague concepts all around, which makes sense since it's an early stage start up. That sounds like a blessing in disguise
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Dec 16, 2023 20:14
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e: she called Sunday lol
Chad Sexington fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Dec 17, 2023 |
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Dec 16, 2023 22:00
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Yeah I wouldn't read too much into people not doing work poo poo on a Saturday in mid-December. Wait until at least like Tuesday before you get worked up about it. Probably wait until January to get worked up about it actually.
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Dec 16, 2023 22:32
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It’s Eric the Mauve posted:a Saturday in mid-December. Even though they prob wanted to seem like the all in worker their cold prob kept them up all night and between that and the party hangover they forgot. Follow up with a polite email on Wed or something
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Dec 16, 2023 23:04
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I guess that's fair. I thought it was borderline psychotic that Saturday was even on the table.
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Dec 17, 2023 01:18
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My wife had a phone screen the other week with a company (the mouse) and said the recruiter seemed intense but that was likely due to him being almost 10 minutes late and trying to blow through the call. Either way she moved onto the hiring manager interview. She does the interview and all is normal and good; though during this interview she finds out there was some restructuring of the group and this manager is fairly new to the role and managing (a team of a few) but that’s not a big deal. However, this is where we both are confused and can’t figure out how to proceed … She gets a follow up from the recruiter with optional questions such as how was it, what type of questions were asked, how did she feel answering them, etc. also what were the pros and cons of the role among others. With all the interviews combined we’ve done over the years we don’t recall this being a thing. Is he trying to elicit feedback on a new hiring manger? Is this guy just a different level of doing things? Ignoring the email seems bad form but hey that’s on par for HR communications  , “interview was fine, looking forward to next steps” really side steps the whole thing and can be interrupted in a broad way, and answering can also result in additional unwanted assumptions. What’s the deal?
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Dec 19, 2023 02:07
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Could be something they do,, Disney has a reputation for a pretty thorough interview process. Could be trying to get feedback on a new hiring manager. I'd be honest but be positive. Be engaging, and show that she's aware what the role is and what is expected. Try to show some connection to the team. If there is something negative be really soft and try to frame it as an opportunity (The manager seems great and seems like they could really use an experienced professional like myself). Basically, treat it as a continuation of the interview, because it is.
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Dec 19, 2023 02:24
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timepenguin posted:However, this is where we both are confused and can’t figure out how to proceed … She gets a follow up from the recruiter with optional questions such as how was it, what type of questions were asked, how did she feel answering them, etc. also what were the pros and cons of the role among others. With all the interviews combined we’ve done over the years we don’t recall this being a thing. Is he trying to elicit feedback on a new hiring manger? Is this guy just a different level of doing things? Is it a 3rd party recruiter? In my most recent search, that came up 2-3 times, and mostly with recruiters I got on pretty well with. This was only when the recruiter was part of a larger company as opposed to an individual independent contractor. Typically my gut feeling on those inquiries was them trying and get information to inform other leads in case you don't work out or just for the next lead. A similar story: I was getting a short test from a position (short enough I was willing to oblige). It was more mathy for some sensible business specific reasons. During a short prep session, the third party recruiter started literally giving me the answers (Pretend I put a grit teeth cringe 'eesh' smilie here, I thought we had one.)
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Dec 19, 2023 12:15
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Magnetic North posted:Is it a 3rd party recruiter? In my most recent search, that came up 2-3 times, and mostly with recruiters I got on pretty well with. This was only when the recruiter was part of a larger company as opposed to an individual independent contractor. Typically my gut feeling on those inquiries was them trying and get information to inform other leads in case you don't work out or just for the next lead. No it was a corporate recruiter. But now that you mention it I have had some of those 3rd party recruiters that are always following up after every interaction and in it way too much so they can utilize that for other leads. Lockback posted:Could be something they do,, Disney has a reputation for a pretty thorough interview process. Could be trying to get feedback on a new hiring manager. We had discussed this a little as it being still part of the interview, while it is optional, it is sort of like salary requirement questions, sure you can not answer or ask the right questions but sometimes a company will back away if you don’t give them the response they are looking for. I just couldn’t find anything that said this is sort of a standard process in Disney corporate jobs. If they wanted to know how a new manager is there are other ways to assess that. To me it’s odd though. I’d almost think it’s a post interview feedback ask but not having said the process is over, if I don’t get hired I can ask a company for feedback and maybe they respond…
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Dec 19, 2023 18:22
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What's the thread suggestions for making a quick exit from a new position? You know, for reasons such as it's not as advertised / turns out the work or industry is just not for you / has unexpected and unavoidable personality conflicts / is a complete and total poo poo show? I think I saw one of the usual suspects talking about that recently but I forget who. It might be fine. I may be overreacting, and it's not like much will happen this time of year anyway, but I am keeping my powder dry.
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Dec 19, 2023 22:51
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Well, you just... get back to the job search. If you're asking how to answer the obvious and inevitable question "why are you looking for another job only 4 months after starting your current one" then your answer should be spun as positively as possible, along the lines of "it was an opportunity I jumped at, but some things changed soon after I arrived that made it not quite as much of a fit for my goals of X Y and Z [things the job you're interviewing for involve, of course]." Over in the negosh thread I posted this a couple weeks ago (on the subject of reneging after accepting an offer but before your start date) which I'll just selfquote: Eric the Mauve posted:Obviously you'll nuke the bridge from orbit with the company you left hanging out to dry. Depending on how big/small your industry is that might or might not be a bigger problem than just never being able to work for that one company ever again. Reasonable people understand that some companies/some managers are a shitshow and you can't reasonably come to realize that until you've started working for them. But "you get one free jobhop per decade" is a good rule of thumb to follow. If you've already used yours, realistically it will be a lot tougher to get interviews and offers because two jobhops will raise eyebrows (if it doesn't just get your resume shitcanned by the screening software). The other thing to be aware of if you're going to job search again is right now there seems to be a lot of "I got two job offers but they're both for 10% less money than I'm making now" going on out there. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Dec 19, 2023 |
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Dec 19, 2023 23:03
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Eric the Mauve posted:The other thing to be aware of if you're going to job search again is right now there seems to be a lot of "I got two job offers but they're both for 10% less money than I'm making now" going on out there.
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Dec 19, 2023 23:25
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Also an 18 month stretch looks a lot better than a 4 month stretch, but that obviously depends on how bad current place is.
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Dec 20, 2023 05:19
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Not sure where this transitions from the interview thread to the negotiation thread, but... Company A is in the process of writing me an offer after I interviewed on Monday. I had a final interview at Company B yesterday, and I had a final interview at Government Organization C a few weeks ago but something came up and the search got delayed. Is it reasonable for me to email Band C and say hey I'm interested in working for you but I have an offer incoming so I'd like to make sure you have the opportunity to make an offer as well. Not really sure how I should be phrasing that for them.
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Dec 20, 2023 14:28
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I would wait until you have the offer in hand. Then if it looks likely you will end up accepting, you can email C and say "I am very interested in joining your org, but I have received other offers [no harm assuming B's offer is coming any day now] that I will soon need to act on. If our interest in working together is mutual, could you please send an offer as soon as possible?" Especially with a government org though, honestly, it's unlikely to matter. They'll move at the (glacial) pace they move at.
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Dec 20, 2023 14:33
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It’s a good strategy in general and is likely to work on other companies, but it’s not likely to work on a government org. It doesn’t hurt to try but since it’s unlikely to work, you need to decide whether you are willing to decline offers to wait for C.
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Dec 20, 2023 15:29
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I'm also hoping to get an offer out of Company B as well, to hopefully leverage to get a few more bucks out of A since all told I think that's where I want to end up. Org C is just a wild card but I'd love to give them the opportunity to make an offer and see what it would be, but I don't have high hopes. I have no idea how any of this works, I've never been at an offer stage where I have to make considerations and negotiate. Where I'm at now is the recruiter at A has told me I was the only candidate they were considering on Monday, then yesterday we talked about a potential start date and he told me the number he was going to submit in the offer, and he's keeping me up to date as it gets approved at various levels internally. So not a "formal" offer in hand but quite sure it's coming and an idea of what it will be (though don't know much about non-salary compensation for example).
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Dec 20, 2023 15:46
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:It’s a good strategy in general and is likely to work on other companies, but it’s not likely to work on a government org. It doesn’t hurt to try but since it’s unlikely to work, you need to decide whether you are willing to decline offers to wait for C. This isn't strong enough. Government hiring runs on its own timeline and they will not adjust it for you.
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Dec 20, 2023 15:53
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Oh no worries I work in the public sector right now so I know exactly how it moves and how little you can count on any flexibility. I will absolutely not be holding out for C, but if they are able to make an offer on my timeline I'm open to giving it an honest consideration.
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Dec 20, 2023 15:55
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FISHMANPET posted:he told me the number he was going to submit in the offer, and he's keeping me up to date as it gets approved at various levels internally. So not a "formal" offer in hand but quite sure it's coming and an idea of what it will be (though don't know much about non-salary compensation for example). Uhh, if he told you the number in the offer and you said yes then you're done negotiating. Is that the number you're happy with? If you agree to a number you probably don't want to go back and say "How about +x?", it's not a very strong position.
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Dec 20, 2023 16:56
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Lockback posted:Uhh, if he told you the number in the offer and you said yes then you're done negotiating. Is that the number you're happy with? True, but... if they haven't formally made the offer and another company makes an offer in the meantime, it's not unreasonable to tell them "hey I got another offer a couple days ago, can you do $X?"
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Dec 20, 2023 17:14
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Eric the Mauve posted:True, but... if they haven't formally made the offer and another company makes an offer in the meantime, it's not unreasonable to tell them "hey I got another offer a couple days ago, can you do $X?" Right, so I think OP should maybe try to move quickly here. From my personal opinion, I'd be way more open to adjusting my number before I go through formal process.
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Dec 20, 2023 17:28
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Eric the Mauve posted:The other thing to be aware of if you're going to job search again is right now there seems to be a lot of "I got two job offers but they're both for 10% less money than I'm making now" going on out there. This means prices are going to decrease in tandem, right? …right?
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Dec 20, 2023 18:46
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I thought the process was that you mutually decided on a number before the contract was written up? If you're at the contract stage I assume everyone has agreed to the number?? I've never been all that strong at negotiating so maybe I'm wrong idk
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Dec 20, 2023 21:10
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Chewbecca posted:I thought the process was that you mutually decided on a number before the contract was written up? If you're at the contract stage I assume everyone has agreed to the number?? I think you’re in upside down land so I don’t know how you crims do it down there but at least in the US, there might be some informal negotiation before an offer letter but that offer letter is still very much negotiable. You get a letter saying job duties xyz, benefits eligibility, salary, etc. You then can come back and negotiate any aspect of that letter. Now, if you had a verbal agreement and then tried to negotiate the offer letter to something different from that verbal agreement, that would be gauche at best and might get the offer pulled entirely. Note that in the US there are (almost) no employment contracts so the offer letter is not technically binding in any way.
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Dec 20, 2023 21:41
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Yeah, but generally you just negotiate once. So if I say "You're so awesome I'm going to get you an offer for $9 an hour" and you say "Sure!" as an employer I might button up that amount and may not want to go to the well if you come back asking for $9.50. I doubt it would get an offer pulled, but my hands might be tied, or I might be less motivated to negotiate because I am pretty sure you already said $9 was alright.
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Dec 20, 2023 22:05
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ultrafilter posted:This isn't strong enough. Government hiring runs on its own timeline and they will not adjust it for you. Running into this now. Got a verbal offer from gov job. Waiting on the formal provisional offer hopefully this week, then won't get final offer until after background check in a couple months. Just got a written offer for a non-gov job. Cool job, they went and magically found an extra 5k above what has previously been a firm upper bound on the pay band. Still pays a good bit less. I'm going with the gov job. I feel almost palpably itchy turning down a paper offer when the other is only a verbal agreement, but I know I can't grease the gov wheels.
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Dec 20, 2023 22:10
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I think you’re in upside down land so I don’t know how you crims do it down there but at least in the US, there might be some informal negotiation before an offer letter but that offer letter is still very much negotiable. You get a letter saying job duties xyz, benefits eligibility, salary, etc. You then can come back and negotiate any aspect of that letter. Now, if you had a verbal agreement and then tried to negotiate the offer letter to something different from that verbal agreement, that would be gauche at best and might get the offer pulled entirely. Note that in the US there are (almost) no employment contracts so the offer letter is not technically binding in any way. In God's chosen land Australia, you typically get a verbal offer first - they ring you on the phone to offer you the job. This phone discussion is where you discuss start dates and salary. You can ask for time to consider of course, but you usually have an idea by this stage what you want and what the range is. This information is put into the contract, which is why I think it would be frowned upon to negotiate salary after the contract has been drawn up.
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Dec 20, 2023 22:14
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ultrafilter posted:This isn't strong enough. Government hiring runs on its own timeline and they will not adjust it for you. I once got interviewed and hired by a company in the space of a few weeks. A government job I'd applied for about the same time got back to me six weeks later asking if I could come in for an interview. For a coworker of mine, a similar thing happened, but the delay was six months.
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Dec 20, 2023 22:32
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My perspective of the conversation is that I wasn't agreeing to that salary, he was telling he was going to put in the offer and I was just acknowledging it. I have no idea what vacation, insurance, retirement, bonuses, equity, etc look like, so I feel comfortable still negotating. Like I could say I was expecting a little more health care contribution, what about another $X000 to compensate, etc etc. Or maybe I hosed it all up! But it's still going through approval processes internally (the recruiter is keeping me up to date) so nothing's set in stone. For all I know, the offer could come back with a bigger number than he originally told me. And FWIW I'd be perfectly happy with the number he gave (unless the benefits are truly crap) so even if I hosed it all up I'll still be fine. And a second offer would of course change everything as well.
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Dec 20, 2023 22:53
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I'm interviewing peeps again and my most and least favorite thing as an interviewer: When someone has precisely one question, its answered clearly and concisely in the job req, and it is fundamental to doing the job. E.g. this is a FT in office position.
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Dec 20, 2023 23:16
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