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Main Paineframe posted:Is it normal for ambulances to be taking discharged patients home in some countries? It's not the usual practice in the US - ambulances are for rapid response to immediate health emergencies, not for transporting healthy people around. Yeah but you'll often have different types of ambulances ie emergency response will generally be packed with life-saving equipment but you get more transport varieties too. So in the UK for example we have non-emergency transport ambulances. The crew is well-trained. There's space for more than one patient. The equipment is basic. And it allows for safe and assisted transport for eg those who are elderly, still infirm or lack support and their own means of travel (both to and from hospitals). The ambulances are clearly marked as ambulances. So at a time of war, probably even more important to have non-emergency transport if you think about the number of people who no longer have family or who will have recovered from wounds that are still debilitating etc. Can't just expect patients to walk ten kms over rubble-strewn pockmarked streets with hunter-killer drones on the lookout (think there's still the hope that Israel will respect a marked vehicle).
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Dec 16, 2023 12:35
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CSM posted:"An Israeli real estate company" doesn't set the Israeli government's policy. Nor do IDF soldiers holding a banner saying they're going to settle Gaza or saying on video they're going to do so but it's not a great sign. Jesus christ: quote:An initial IDF probe into the hostage killing incident suggests all three men were shirtless, with one carrying a makeshift white flag. https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...en-ceasefire-un Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 13:28 on Dec 16, 2023 |
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Dec 16, 2023 12:38
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Main Paineframe posted:Did they ever actually present civilians as "captured Hamas fighters"? Several Twitter accounts certainly accused them of doing so, but when I checked their claims, I didn't find any evidence of that. Official Israeli sources stated only that they had captured military-aged males in an area that was supposed to have been evacuated, and they would be investigating and interrogating the captured men to determine whether any of them were affiliated with Hamas. I was not able to find Israeli authorities claiming those captured civilians as confirmed Hamas members. I hope I'm misunderstanding what you're saying but you do know that saying "we will bomb your house, you must evacuate or you will die" does not make said bombing any more okay, right? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 16, 2023 12:49
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Groovelord Neato posted:IDF killed three hostages: https://x.com/asafronel/status/1735988635126653224?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q Christ on a bike. For context, Asaf Ronel is an independent journalist who used to work for Haaretz. I've found him to be one of the best follows on I/P.
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Dec 16, 2023 13:31
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go play outside Skyler posted:I hope I'm misunderstanding what you're saying but you do know that saying "we will bomb your house, you must evacuate or you will die" does not make said bombing any more okay, right? You are very definitely misunderstanding what I'm saying! What I'm saying is that official Israeli spokesmen never actually presented those captured civilians as Hamas fighters, and that the poster who claimed otherwise was misled by randos on Twitter. Frankly, I have no loving idea at all what you thought I was saying.
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Dec 16, 2023 13:57
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Darth Walrus posted:https://x.com/asafronel/status/1735988635126653224?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q Shows how they are operating against civilians. Unarmed and waving a white flag,it doesn't get more clear than that. And reminds me of a video from October, when a small group of Hamas had surrendered after the initial attacks, they were waving white flag and gunned down. I've seen some try to justify that Hamas suicide bombers disguise themselves as civilians, but there's too issues with that. One I've never heard of any incidents of suicide bombers disguised as civilians during this conflict, and secondly they were bare chested, they visibly had no way to hide a bomb vest.
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Dec 16, 2023 14:21
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Marenghi posted:Shows how they are operating against civilians. Unarmed and waving a white flag,it doesn't get more clear than that. And reminds me of a video from October, when a small group of Hamas had surrendered after the initial attacks, they were waving white flag and gunned down. Also suicide bombings have been incredibly rare - a grand total of two in the past decade with zero fatalities apart from the bomber.
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Dec 16, 2023 14:25
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Darth Walrus posted:https://x.com/asafronel/status/1735988635126653224?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q This is getting air time on regular news too. It was just up in the cafeteria at work during the morning news.
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Dec 16, 2023 14:26
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https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-hostages-killed-mistakenly-gaza-were-holding-white-flag-official-says-2023-12-16/quote:"They're all without shirts and they have a stick with a white cloth on it. The soldier feels threatened and opens fire. He declares that they're terrorists, they (forces) open fire, two are killed immediately," said the military official. So, I wonder if this is an isolated incident or if ROE has been so lax that this practice was not able to be excused in this particular case because the victims were hostages. Kind of think I know the answer based on how the soldier exclaims that they are terrorists.
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Dec 16, 2023 14:27
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Love that they stole the "he felt threatened" excuse that will never be examined from US cops. No follow-up questions will be asked on, exactly, why a bunch of armed soldiers supposedly felt threatened by shirtless unarmed civilians waving a white flag. Absolutely the IDF routinely shoots anyone they see moving and the only reason this is different is that they shot hostages. What's more surprising to me is that there was any confirmation from military officials at all instead of them claiming they were killed by Hamas gunfire despite all evidence to the contrary, a la Abu Akleh. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Dec 16, 2023 |
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Dec 16, 2023 15:11
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It would be disrespectful to the memory of the hostages to investigate this further.
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Dec 16, 2023 15:16
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Ravenfood posted:Love that they stole the "he felt threatened" excuse that will never be examined from US cops. No follow-up questions will be asked on, exactly, why a bunch of armed soldiers supposedly felt threatened by shirtless unarmed civilians waving a white flag. IDF is claiming it's against their rules of engagement which it might be to the written ones but who's buying that these guys decided to go off on their own.
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Dec 16, 2023 15:21
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This is one of the reasons I'm extra skeptical of any Hamas casualties the IDF offers or might offer; it was clear from when they executed workers on Oct 7 that their identification for 'Hamas Militant' is very lax. If they hadn't realized these three were hostages, I wouldn't be surprised if they would have been heaped onto their kill count, Vietnam style.
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Dec 16, 2023 15:25
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perhaps the military curating all the snuff films its soldiers take mutilating corpses and murdering schools full of women and children on telegram is not being entirely truthful when it claims this isn't encouraged
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Dec 16, 2023 15:27
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Ravenfood posted:Love that they stole the "he felt threatened" excuse that will never be examined from US cops. No follow-up questions will be asked on, exactly, why a bunch of armed soldiers supposedly felt threatened by shirtless unarmed civilians waving a white flag. I think one of the more infuriating things about this, outside of the obvious genocide, is seeing CopLogic and CopSpeak on such a large scale. It's no wonder the marginalized in America feel so much sympathy for the Palestinians, they're seeing all these "accidentally police shootings" and "died in police custody" incidents writ large by Israel, a nation of cops. I have to wonder if what came first, American police deferral of responsibility or Israel's "blamelessness" regarding war crimes? Did Israel teach that to our cops like everything else in the LEO/security industry they've set up or did they learn that from us? Or is it a convergent evolution of cover-ups and victim blaming?
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Dec 16, 2023 15:27
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Groovelord Neato posted:IDF is claiming it's against their rules of engagement which it might be to the written ones but who's buying that these guys decided to go off on their own. There's a bit of a buried lede in the NYTimes account of from the response they got from the IDF: "The third fled into the building, from which a cry in Hebrew for help could be heard. The battalion commander ordered the forces to hold their fire. But the wounded hostage later re-emerged, after which he was shot and killed, the military statement said." Which sure sounds like the soldiers are just straight up disobeying direct ceasefire orders.
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Dec 16, 2023 15:30
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https://x.com/IDF/status/1735651616416514381?s=20 Israel confirming Hamas reports from last month. Hamas have been using the sounds of children to lure IDF soldiers into ambushes. They have no reflection on why the sounds of Palestinian children are like catnip to IDF soldiers who'll rush in for easy kills.
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Dec 16, 2023 15:40
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Marenghi posted:Israel confirming Hamas reports from last month. Hamas have been using the sounds of children to lure IDF soldiers into ambushes. They have no reflection on why the sounds of Palestinian children are like catnip to IDF soldiers who'll rush in for easy kills. The Israel defenders trying to turn it around by saying it's because the IDF are such good guys they want to find and help the kids is so annoying. Shifty Pony posted:There's a bit of a buried lede in the NYTimes account of from the response they got from the IDF: What I was reading was treating the whole thing as being against the rules of engagement. They'd already killed two at that point. Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Dec 16, 2023 |
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Dec 16, 2023 15:44
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Ravenfood posted:Love that they stole the "he felt threatened" excuse that will never be examined from US cops. No follow-up questions will be asked on, exactly, why a bunch of armed soldiers supposedly felt threatened by shirtless unarmed civilians waving a white flag. If they really want to step up to US cop levels they need to use ‘furtive movements’. ‘The near naked hostage made a furtive movement towards their underwear, so I started blastin’.
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Dec 16, 2023 16:20
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Worth pointing out (again) that American police departments send people to Israel to get pointers on how to police populations back home.
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Dec 16, 2023 16:29
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Seyser Koze posted:Worth pointing out (again) that American police departments send people to Israel to get pointers on how to police populations back home. Between that and the "Dude, having sex after you snuff the life out of someone's eyes is the BEST" cop lecturer that had trained like 1500 precincts, color me unsurprised.
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Dec 16, 2023 16:33
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Sephyr posted:Between that and the "Dude, having sex after you snuff the life out of someone's eyes is the BEST" cop lecturer that had trained like 1500 precincts, color me unsurprised. Imagine David Grossman (apt name) losing business to the Israelis and video games.
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Dec 16, 2023 16:37
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It's my own fault for not having deleted twitter but I see people saying how the fact Israel admitted killing the hostages shows how honest they are for taking responsibility, but also it's Hamas' faultSeyser Koze posted:Worth pointing out (again) that American police departments send people to Israel to get pointers on how to police populations back home. Say this in the UK and you'll lose your job
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Dec 16, 2023 16:37
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Seyser Koze posted:Worth pointing out (again) that American police departments send people to Israel to get pointers on how to police populations back home. A British actress was cancelled by the media as an antisemite for saying that during the BLM protests. And it lead to a Labour politician being sacked for retweeting her. Making that claim is the same as sharing The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Doesn't matter that recently enough, in the last year or two, they has been confirmation Israel teaches the knee on neck maneuver as a compliance tool. Marenghi fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Dec 16, 2023 |
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Dec 16, 2023 16:41
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Darth Walrus posted:https://x.com/asafronel/status/1735988635126653224?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q It’s worth pointing out we’re only hearing about this because the victims were Israeli hostages. So the real question becomes is if this is how the IDF handles civilian encounters in Gaza
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Dec 16, 2023 16:57
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CSM posted:This is misinformation you fell for, where they accused some random Israeli woman of being the (likely) fake Palestinian nurse It ultimately doesn't matter who the fake nurse was, Al-Shifa hospital wasn't Hamas HQ and you shouldn't believe every video you watch on Twitter.
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Dec 16, 2023 16:57
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Main Paineframe posted:Did they ever actually present civilians as "captured Hamas fighters"? Several Twitter accounts certainly accused them of doing so, but when I checked their claims, I didn't find any evidence of that. Official Israeli sources stated only that they had captured military-aged males in an area that was supposed to have been evacuated, and they would be investigating and interrogating the captured men to determine whether any of them were affiliated with Hamas. I was not able to find Israeli authorities claiming those captured civilians as confirmed Hamas members. Are you talking about the guys they stripped and forced to "surrender" and hand over their prop guns while they shot propaganda photos? Because releasing these photos right after Nethanyahu started making statements that "dozens of militants are surrendering" is getting into some real strange territory here. Or are you only referencing this article: https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/israel-says-groups-of-hamas-militants-surrendered-amid-gaza-fighting-7891bc22 which repeats in its opening lines that israel claims that many of the men who are being detained are surrendering Hamas fighters?
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Dec 16, 2023 16:57
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Shifty Pony posted:There's a bit of a buried lede in the NYTimes account of from the response they got from the IDF: From what I understand the sequence goes: - IDF squad inspect a damaged hospital building with the graffiti "Save Us" and "Three Hostages" (presumably in Hebrew) - Three escaped hostages run up to them, shirtless, waving a white flag, yelling in Hebrew - After a brief moment, the squad leader yells "Terrorists!" And they open fire, killing two of them - They chase the third wounded hostage into the hospital ruins, find him, he explains that he's Israeli, speaking perfect hebrew - They execute him anyways IDF-culpable interpretation is that they're innately assuming every civilian outside a building (and most inside) are terrorists, no matter what they say. This is supported by their general treatment of the Palestinians (sniping people in ICU's, executing an old man on the beach, mowing down people on the highway between North and South Gaza) Soldier-culpable interpretation is that a lot of IDF soldiers are really hungry for some easy morale boosting kills. Only way I can explain the leader's decision. In any case, it says something harrowing about the IDF's boast of having killed 5,000 Hamas soldiers. I've been ambivalent about the talking point of "the hostages are safer with Hamas right now", but if this doesn't support that then I don't know what would. I expect to see a lot fewer escape attempts. E: For anyone keeping track, the number of hostages freed through negotiations to hostages freed through military action is now 107 to -4. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Dec 16, 2023 |
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Dec 16, 2023 17:36
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Closer to -24 isn't it?
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Dec 16, 2023 17:51
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:Are you talking about the guys they stripped and forced to "surrender" and hand over their prop guns while they shot propaganda photos? Because releasing these photos right after Nethanyahu started making statements that "dozens of militants are surrendering" is getting into some real strange territory here. Or are you only referencing this article: https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/israel-says-groups-of-hamas-militants-surrendered-amid-gaza-fighting-7891bc22 which repeats in its opening lines that israel claims that many of the men who are being detained are surrendering Hamas fighters? If we want to know what the Israeli government is actually saying about the people they're capturing in Gaza, the actual direct quotes from actual Israeli government officials speaking on-the-record using their real names are probably the actually important part of that article. quote:In recent days, the Israeli media has shown photos and videos of dozens of Palestinian men in their underwear being detained by the Israeli military. Late Saturday, a video circulated of a man emerging from a crowd in his underwear, carrying a rifle above his head and placing it on the ground. This WSJ article isn't great for reading the official Israeli messaging on those captives, though, because it's not spending very much time on official mouthpieces, preferring instead to spend its time looking for other sources and anonymous sources. Which is fine, and in general a diversity of sources is a good thing! But when we're talking specifically about the Israeli government's official claims, we do kind of need to focus on info coming from the Israeli government. This AP article covers it in slightly more detail https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-12-8-2023-364b8f23ced3704273faede6f2ca6f38 quote:Israeli government spokesman Eylon Levy said Friday that those detained in northern Gaza were “military-aged men who were discovered in areas that civilians were supposed to have evacuated weeks ago.” Military spokesman Daniel Hagari said that in the past 48 hours, some 200 people have been detained. Dozens have been taken to Israel for interrogation, including Hamas commanders, he said. Whether or not they're telling the truth with that particular claim, it doesn't much look like they're presenting civilians as "captured Hamas fighters" here. Rather, it looks like they're rounding up and interrogating all military-aged men in their self-proclaimed evacuation zone in a heavy-handed sweep for any potential Hamas members, and not really trying to cover it up with lies about them being confirmed fighters.
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Dec 16, 2023 18:19
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https://twitter.com/RahebM/status/1736056581521826286 (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 16, 2023 18:30
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Main Paineframe posted:If we want to know what the Israeli government is actually saying about the people they're capturing in Gaza, the actual direct quotes from actual Israeli government officials speaking on-the-record using their real names are probably the actually important part of that article. I don't understand why we have to months (decades) into this still play the game where we pretend there's some sort of useful understanding to be gleaned from what the israeli government is saying, much less the textual specifics, beyond maybe "how big of a lie is this?". israel has the most sophisticated, in a sense, propaganda apparatus in in world. Social media, traditional media, the actual person of Bibi Netanyahu, keep saying "we're capturing Hamas fighters. Militants are surrendering. They're losing, we're winning, they're giving up. Total victory is right around the corner". Now they release images of ~somebody~ "surrendering" (wink!) -- a war crime, by the way -- and they have their people hedge a little bit for western audiences in saying that "oh these are just Military Aged Males that were being suspiciously Hamas-like in this Hamas area while we waged our War On Hamas™". Probably because they are finally starting to understand that hasbara is less effective when they can't make your exact argument over semantics and technicalities. Please note I am not saying you are wrong, I am saying your gormless take is completely without merit or utility. Unless you dispute that propaganda is a thing that exists you should understand that no one is going to tell you that they are doing propaganda, and that propaganda is far more complex and nuanced than a series of atomic, self-contained falsehoods coming from a single government body.
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Dec 16, 2023 19:13
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Israeli leadership says months more fighting, and that borders will change. Even the most moderate Israeli doesn't like rocket attacks, no matter how weak. Even ITT the 2 state solution is dead. The line has been moving in I's favor for most of history. Correct me, but aren't these interesting questions? When and how will a cease fire be forced, by who? Who will make it stick, or will IDF continue until physically exhausted? Where will the border finally end up after talks, between who? Does each side gain or lose sponsors? How will the I/P demo change? The fact I is mask off massacring without bothering to hide it shows how free they are to move forward. The politicians say whatever on TV, but to the troops say "advance, advance, before they make us stop", like the 6-Day War. Preen Dog fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Dec 16, 2023 |
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Dec 16, 2023 19:43
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https://twitter.com/LPJerusalem/status/1736057252086268025 Beyond galling. This is monstrous. I don't know what more to say. How long will Israel be allowed to murder and execute people they deem inferior? What happened to never again?
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Dec 16, 2023 20:44
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DelilahFlowers posted:https://twitter.com/LPJerusalem/status/1736057252086268025 Never again to us.
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Dec 16, 2023 21:27
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ContinuityNewTimes posted:Never again to us. Unfortunately, it's this.
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Dec 16, 2023 22:05
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This is D&D. We're suppose to be discussing and understanding things here. More-over, it's really weird to just assume they're lying about a thing that actually makes them look way worse to tell the truth about like this. If they're just rounding up people to interrogate For No Good Reason, that's even worse than pretending to have the fig-leaf of "Hamas fighters!". They don't care that they're just grabbing everyone who may or may even be related to Hamas. Bel Shazar posted:Much like with American or Russian government announcements the default mode is to assume the opposite of what they have claimed. They're claiming that they just rounded up whoever the gently caress was there, so is the truth that they actually got a massive crew of Hamas Fighters? This kind of thinking is inherently silly because nobody lies 24/7, not even the US or Russia.
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Dec 16, 2023 23:55
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Kchama posted:This is D&D. We're suppose to be discussing and understanding things here. And yet my heuristic works more than it doesn't because while they don't all lie all the time, they do it enough. Plus, 'we just rounded up whoever' is a good cover for 'we are intentionally slaughtering civilians'
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Dec 17, 2023 00:47
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Bel Shazar posted:And yet my heuristic works more than it doesn't because while they don't all lie all the time, they do it enough. ... is it? It seems like it's the same drat thing. Like why else would you just randomly round up people? It's never for a good reason. Kchama fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Dec 17, 2023 |
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Dec 17, 2023 03:08
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Kchama posted:... is it? It seems like it's the same drat thing. Like why else would you just randomly round up people? It's never for a good reason. Only going off of personal anecdote, but it's given a number of folks that I can't quite excise from my on circles an excuse to excuse everything based on collateral damage.
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Dec 17, 2023 13:55
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