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Dysgenesis posted:I didn't know this either and frame of mind is my guilty pleasure episode. Sorry, I was being mildly sarcastic. I believe “Frame of Mind” was much better prepared for by the writing staff and giving Frakes time to practice. (Checking Memory Alpha, Michael Pillar only accepted it because they were running out of scripts late in the season and the entire writing staff sorted it out over a three day marathon. Still better than “Masks” got.) And it’s a genuinely good episode, no guilt required.
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Dec 17, 2023 20:19
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Dysgenesis posted:I have to say this is the first time I've watched all the way through tng for years and I have appreciated Riker as a character a lot more. Maybe because I'm a older now and understand where he is in his life a bit more. Weirdly enough my watch over the last year and a bit (I’d never seen TNG end to end before) had me appreciating Wesley a lot more. As a gifted kid myself, Wesley annoyed me as a Trek-watching kid, because he was just like me and I was tired of watching kid’s media with smart/special kids showing all the adults up. I watched Trek because it WAS about adults, shut up Wesley! But now in my mid-30s I can appreciate what the writers and producers were doing with him more, some standard kid plots and other stuff with Trek-specific twists. And once I got out of S1 he started to take his lumps in addition to being a wunderkind, which gave him some much needed depth.
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Dec 17, 2023 20:22
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I'm old enough to have watched tng as it first aired. This has been the third time through start to finish and sharing it with my children (who are a similar age to I was when I first saw it in the kate 80s and 90s) has given me a different perspective. If anything I consider it an even better show. The characters who grow throughout are some of the best realised in television, the highs are incredible and series 7 comes across as a bit of an experiment. Plenty of hits though.
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Dec 17, 2023 21:04
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Dysgenesis posted:I have to say this is the first time I've watched all the way through tng for years and I have appreciated Riker as a character a lot more. Maybe because I'm a older now and understand where he is in his life a bit more. Totally. He definitely feels like a character written for adults (and not in the way you're thinking, huh huh huh). As a kid he seems like the boring guy and as a teenager it's like "why doesn't he just confess his love for Troi omg" Arivia posted:Weirdly enough my watch over the last year and a bit (I’d never seen TNG end to end before) had me appreciating Wesley a lot more. As a gifted kid myself, Wesley annoyed me as a Trek-watching kid, because he was just like me and I was tired of watching kid’s media with smart/special kids showing all the adults up. I watched Trek because it WAS about adults, shut up Wesley! It probably helps when you already know he gets better in later seasons and it doesn't take an entire year to get past Season 1 Wesley. When there's no guarantee that you aren't gonna be stuck with this kid for the entire series, I can understand how he got so much hate.
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Dec 17, 2023 21:32
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Dysgenesis posted:I have to say this is the first time I've watched all the way through tng for years and I have appreciated Riker as a character a lot more. Maybe because I'm a older now and understand where he is in his life a bit more. TNG, being a really episodic show, doesn't have a whole lot of big years-long character arcs, but Riker has a good one. It's never really explicitly said this way, but at the start, he's straight-up afraid of becoming a Captain. He passes up no less than three offers for a ship of his own, giving excuses like he still has so much more to learn. Finally, during The Best of Both Worlds, command is thrust upon him, and he discovers that yes, he's ready. Of course, the problem is that this arc is over by the start of season 4, and then the writers hit a great big pause button on his character. He's still a good character, but he's basically static for the rest of the show, and until the end of the movies. It's over a decade before he finally takes command of the Titan.
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Dec 17, 2023 21:32
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Powered Descent posted:Of course, the problem is that this arc is over by the start of season 4, and then the writers hit a great big pause button on his character. He's still a good character, but he's basically static for the rest of the show, and until the end of the movies. Which is why it's understandable that they batted around the idea of killing Will and keeping Thomas on the Enterprise when plotting out "Second Chances."
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Dec 17, 2023 22:56
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Today's episode of DS9 is "Second Sight," a story about Sisko becoming infatuated with a mysterious woman who keeps disappearing. Wasn't a bad episode, but I didn't really feel anything for this one. Very much a "that sure was an episode of Star Trek, I guess," kind of episode, which is fine.
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Dec 17, 2023 23:19
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disaster pastor posted:Which is why it's understandable that they batted around the idea of killing Will and keeping Thomas on the Enterprise when plotting out "Second Chances." They should of kept both. I wonder if there is any starfleet ship that is crewed entirely by someone and hundreds of their transporter clones. You know the ships transporter just got stuck on copy for a couple of hours and then starfleet was just like, oh what the hell do with hundreds of this persons clones. Ah gently caress it let's just give them all their own ship. See what happens. Seems a very starfleet way of dealing with the problem.
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Dec 17, 2023 23:50
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Powered Descent posted:TNG, being a really episodic show, doesn't have a whole lot of big years-long character arcs, but Riker has a good one. It's never really explicitly said this way, but at the start, he's straight-up afraid of becoming a Captain. He passes up no less than three offers for a ship of his own, giving excuses like he still has so much more to learn. Finally, during The Best of Both Worlds, command is thrust upon him, and he discovers that yes, he's ready. I don't really think Riker has much of an arc, and for an episodic show that would usually be okay, but his characterization makes it all the more conspicuous that nothing really happens with him, and so people tend to fill in the blanks. I disagree with your read. He's not afraid of responsebility, and from the beginning he's shown to be a capable and confident leader. He's described as ambitious, which is reinforced when we learn he had given up Troy to pursue some career opportunities. I think it's more fitting to assume that for all his professionalism he is an adventurer at heart and giving up away missions with his friends on the flagship for some second rate command just isn't in him. I think the RLM guys have a similar theory, but in The Best of Both Worlds he briefly gets to have the position he wants, on the ship he wants; the best of both worlds. His arc after being confronted with Shelby, who resembles himself just a few years prior, should have been for him to realize that he is stagnating by being so picky. There's nothing to indicate that he needed to learn or learned that "he's ready". For the rest of the show they tone down the bravado and impishness he had in season 1 and 2 and instead have him ask a bunch of dumb questions so others can deliver exposition. Between that and his mishandling of the situation in Darmok, his overreaction to Ensign Ro and finally his disgraceful attitude in Chain of Command I think the logical conclusion is that he became a worse officer over the duration of the show, and they never really gave us a satisfying explanation for why that is. thotsky fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Dec 18, 2023 |
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Dec 18, 2023 00:09
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he saw what the captain's chair was like, didn't like it, and now he's deliberately misbehaving so he does'nt get promoted
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Dec 18, 2023 00:15
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W.T. Fits posted:Today's episode of DS9 is "Second Sight," a story about Sisko becoming infatuated with a mysterious woman who keeps disappearing. What's interesting in that episode is that they wanted us to feel REALLY sorry for the terraforming guy But he just comes across as a bellend and I don't think they did him very well
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Dec 18, 2023 00:16
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Taear posted:What's interesting in that episode is that they wanted us to feel REALLY sorry for the terraforming guy I didn't really feel like we were supposed to feel bad for the professor. I think we're supposed to feel bad for Sisko, who falls in love with what amounts to a figment of someone else's imagination. But Fenna is such a flat character that it's hard to understand what about her Sisko finds so fascinating. Nidell is even less of a character, to the point where she basically has no agency in a story that's ostensibly about how she's subconsciously trying to escape from a loveless marriage and how it's literally killing her. Overall, it just felt like a filler episode, and while that's not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, I feel like they could have done more with the premise.
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Dec 18, 2023 00:49
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Sir Lemming posted:It probably helps when you already know he gets better in later seasons and it doesn't take an entire year to get past Season 1 Wesley. When there's no guarantee that you aren't gonna be stuck with this kid for the entire series, I can understand how he got so much hate. He was pretty obnoxious as magical wonder child who gets to drive the spaceship even if you know he's not permanently doing that. Conversely, brilliant fresh from the Academy guy isn't all that obnoxious because, whether intended or not, he came out of it with a pinch of humility that made him more believable. The tricky thing is I don't know how you'd have done the second one without the first one.
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Dec 18, 2023 01:16
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dr_rat posted:They should of kept both. I wonder if there is any starfleet ship that is crewed entirely by someone and hundreds of their transporter clones. You know the ships transporter just got stuck on copy for a couple of hours and then starfleet was just like, oh what the hell do with hundreds of this persons clones. Ah gently caress it let's just give them all their own ship. See what happens. We got close to that with the ship on Picard that was crewed by holograms of the captain, each one with a different stupid accent.
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Dec 18, 2023 01:29
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Sash! posted:He was pretty obnoxious as magical wonder child who gets to drive the spaceship even if you know he's not permanently doing that. I maintain that early on, at least the first half of season 1 or more, they were writing with the mindset that the actor that would be cast was gonna be much younger than Wil ended up actually being. I think a lot of the annoying stuff would probably have played 'better' with a younger kid.
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Dec 18, 2023 01:53
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W.T. Fits posted:Today's episode of DS9 is "Second Sight," a story about Sisko becoming infatuated with a mysterious woman who keeps disappearing. Yeah that episode seemed like a reject TNG script where they copy replaced Picard's name with Sisko
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Dec 18, 2023 01:58
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Feldegast42 posted:Yeah that episode seemed like a reject TNG script where they copy replaced Picard's name with Sisko Looking it up on Memory Alpha, the original pitch for the episode was quite a bit different than what we got: Memory Alpha posted:Mark Gehred-O'Connell's original pitch for this episode involved Bashir meeting a mysterious woman who keeps disappearing. He goes to his colleagues for aid in tracking her down but he discovers that no one aboard the station has ever seen her except himself, and as such, he has to unravel the mystery alone, as his crewmates begin to think he's imagining the whole thing. Bashir ultimately discovers that the woman is in fact a projection by a woman who is abused by her husband. This original version of the story was more of an adventure/mystery than a romance. (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion (p. ?))
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Dec 18, 2023 02:10
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Gaz-L posted:I maintain that early on, at least the first half of season 1 or more, they were writing with the mindset that the actor that would be cast was gonna be much younger than Wil ended up actually being. I think a lot of the annoying stuff would probably have played 'better' with a younger kid. Like a ten year old? Yeah, I could kinda see that then.
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Dec 18, 2023 05:14
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Sash! posted:Like a ten year old? Yeah, I could kinda see that then. It's the whole part in Naked Now with the voice toy thing that really sticks out
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Dec 18, 2023 12:49
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thotsky posted:For the rest of the show they tone down the bravado and impishness he had in season 1 and 2 and instead have him ask a bunch of dumb questions so others can deliver exposition. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S1EzkRpelY
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Dec 18, 2023 16:03
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The Sisko has become too aloof
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Dec 18, 2023 16:09
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W.T. Fits posted:I didn't really feel like we were supposed to feel bad for the professor. I think we're supposed to feel bad for Sisko, who falls in love with what amounts to a figment of someone else's imagination. But Fenna is such a flat character that it's hard to understand what about her Sisko finds so fascinating. Nidell is even less of a character, to the point where she basically has no agency in a story that's ostensibly about how she's subconsciously trying to escape from a loveless marriage and how it's literally killing her. No, I'm not conjecturing here I know it for a fact. Check it: quote:This episode is not a favorite of Ira Steven Behr. He commented "For the show to work, Sisko had to respect Seyetik, and for whatever reason, there was never any current of understanding between Sisko and him. And for me, the show fell apart. The audience had to like Seyetik. He kills himself. How many times do we see a guy commit suicide on Star Trek? It was a great ending, an ending worthy of John Huston, but it just seemed like some other wacky thing this character was doing. You didn't feel the sorrow."
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Dec 18, 2023 17:55
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Taear posted:No, I'm not conjecturing here I know it for a fact. Ah, I see. Then yeah, they definitely whiffed on that one.
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Dec 18, 2023 18:11
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Well, producers have weird ideas on episodes and what worked and what didn't. For example in 50YM books several producers name "Masks" as the worst episode of TNG and the one they would skip if they could do it again.
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Dec 18, 2023 18:47
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Which is hilarious because Masks isn’t great, but I could absolutely find at least 10 episodes that are worse
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Dec 18, 2023 18:49
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also Ira Behr thinks His Way is some masterpiece of an episode
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Dec 18, 2023 18:52
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It’s hilarious how many times I’ve looked up a Voyager episode because it did actually did something kinda cool and interesting, and there’s a quote on Memory Alpha about how Berman or Taylor thought the “episode didn’t quite work”. Like it’s a consistent thing.
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Dec 18, 2023 18:55
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Bad TNG episodes tried to be interesting and failed. Bad Voyager episodes tried to be boring and succeeded
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Dec 18, 2023 19:02
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Der Kyhe posted:Well, producers have weird ideas on episodes and what worked and what didn't. For example in 50YM books several producers name "Masks" as the worst episode of TNG and the one they would skip if they could do it again. I don't think they have weird ideas, they have a different perspective as the creators and that influences their decisions. They can see the holes in the sets, the actor that didn't quite fit a role, so forth and so on. Whereas we as viewers are just ranking the final products, they're thinking of the process just as much or more so.
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Dec 18, 2023 19:10
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:also Ira Behr thinks His Way is some masterpiece of an episode Not surprising, the DS9 writers clearly loved Vic Fontaine to an absolutely baffling degree
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Dec 18, 2023 19:56
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DaveWoo posted:Not surprising, the DS9 writers clearly loved Vic Fontaine to an absolutely baffling degree There's nothing baffling about it.
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Dec 18, 2023 20:21
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Vic Fontaine rules
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Dec 18, 2023 20:24
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skasion posted:Bad TNG episodes tried to be interesting and failed. Bad Voyager episodes tried to be boring and succeeded
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Dec 18, 2023 20:32
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it’s funny how people seem to jump to the conclusion that i’m making GBS threads on vic fontaine
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Dec 18, 2023 21:58
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My mind always goes to the Fontaine from Bioshock, and it's been so long since I've experienced either version and over time I've muddled the memories to the point there's a Trek set against a conniving Fontaine manipulating them without their knowing.
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Dec 18, 2023 22:22
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not to dictate thread rules or anything, but most people are perfectly happy to talk Farscape in the Trek thread as long as it doesn't overtake. Farscape is just Trek but everyone's an rear end in a top hat or moron.
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Dec 18, 2023 23:04
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just start a thread. you don't even have to have platinum to do it.
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Dec 18, 2023 23:05
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I'm about to watch Farscape for the first time so would like to not have to dodge discussion of it here in an unrelated thread, personally.
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Dec 18, 2023 23:20
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Enjoy!
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Dec 18, 2023 23:22
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Grand Fromage posted:I'm about to watch Farscape for the first time so would like to not have to dodge discussion of it here in an unrelated thread, personally. I do and don't envy you. I would love to watch Farscape for the first time again but also I really like that I've watched all of Farscape. It really made me appreciate puppetry done well. I remember at least one of the actors making a point of saying that it's way easier talking to a puppet with a face instead of a tennis ball on a stick. Edit: Oh, and some plot points in Farscape would have worked well in Voyager. Jimbone Tallshanks fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Dec 18, 2023 |
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Dec 18, 2023 23:52
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