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Not finding much outrage in my personal interactions unfortunately. We don't wanna talk about that. Both sides are doing bad things. What about the holocaust? That's antisemitic. What about trump?!?!? And even when the media is reporting on what's going on in Gaza, its bookended by "hamas's horrific attack that killed 1200". Hard to get any conversation going without ending up at "I can't believe Hamas did/is doing this", or "you can't let things like this upset you" as if it's some inevitability, and paying attention and giving a poo poo is self harm. Gaslighting. Indifference. Weakness and wickedness.
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Dec 17, 2023 18:26
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One I heard recently is "you can't let it bother you if there's nothing you can do about it". Just "not my problem" writ large.
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Dec 17, 2023 18:36
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BRJurgis posted:"you can't let things like this upset you" as if it's some inevitability, and paying attention and giving a poo poo is self harm This is most of my interactions re: Palestine. At first there was a lot of outrage over Hamas and the atrocities. But as the truth came out people seemed to lose interest. Now it's please don't talk about the news it's depressing. I don't want to think about it any longer.
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Dec 17, 2023 18:56
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https://x.com/IsraelMFA/status/1736416593205231777 Here's the new footage of the new tunnel all the news orgs will be running with today. Kinda weird (not really) it took this long to find such a large tunnel so close to the border. Anything to get the dead hostages out of the cycle, I suppose.
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Dec 17, 2023 18:59
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Can someone explain to me what the hell is happening in this poll in the section about the Israel-Palestine conflict? https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/HHP_Dec23_KeyResults.pdf Even setting the insanely provocative questions aside, the numbers are so wildly inconsistent, I just don't understand how it could have been published. 80% of the 18-24 year-olds think that Israel has the right to bomb Gaza (with ~75% saying that Israel is trying to avoid civilian casualties), but at the same time 51% in the same age group say Israel should be ended and its territory given to Hamas. All the while 61% also say that Hamas' attack on Oct 7 was genocidal in nature. I suspect that the absence of options for 'I don't know' and 'other' is what makes the numbers completely uninterpretable, but who and why would choose to conduct a poll like that? Absolutely boggles the mind. Were polls by CAPS/Harris always that awful?
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Dec 17, 2023 19:11
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BRJurgis posted:Not finding much outrage in my personal interactions unfortunately. I've found the recent hostage shootings to be a good way to make the point that Israel is just shooting everyone and everything that moves rather than targeting Hamas. They were shirtless, waving a white flag, shouting in Hebrew and they got shot.
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Dec 17, 2023 19:17
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Paladinus posted:Can someone explain to me what the hell is happening in this poll in the section about the Israel-Palestine conflict? I don't know why you leap to 'the poll is wrong' rather than 'the public, young people in particular, regularly hold entirely incompatible beliefs in their head at the same time'. e: the main difference with 18-24 year olds is that it's usually the first time they've personally experienced these events, so they tend towards more extreme views as opposed to older people who are on their 4th or 5th round of I/P violence and don't imagine that what the world needs is a radical solution out of left-field Alchenar fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Dec 17, 2023 |
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Dec 17, 2023 19:53
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Paladinus posted:Can someone explain to me what the hell is happening in this poll in the section about the Israel-Palestine conflict? It's a push poll; the phrasing of the questions is tailored to compel answers the pollgiver wants. This isnt even the first Harvard-Harris Israel push-poll. The fact that many 18-24's still take the anti-Israel option either shows how unpopular Israel as an ethnostate has become, or that they're savvy enough to know what the poll is trying to do & dont like it.
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Dec 17, 2023 20:08
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https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-778367 "David Azoulai, head of the Metula Council, proposed sending all Gazans to refugee camps in Lebanon and flattening the whole Strip so it becomes an empty museum like Auschwitz."
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Dec 17, 2023 20:23
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Szarrukin posted:https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-778367 I can't believe this is real and not a parody. Nobody is this stupid.
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Dec 17, 2023 20:46
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Alchenar posted:I don't know why you leap to 'the poll is wrong' rather than 'the public, young people in particular, regularly hold entirely incompatible beliefs in their head at the same time'. The questions are poorly and pointedly formulated, and there is no data on how many people in each category declined to answer. That's more than enough to say the poll is wrong. If it was only about inconsistencies in personal beliefs, distribution would still be different, as indicated by pretty much any other recent poll on the subject. Neurolimal posted:It's a push poll; the phrasing of the questions is tailored to compel answers the pollgiver wants. This isnt even the first Harvard-Harris Israel push-poll. Yeah, looking at their previous polls, they were even worse somehow. quote:17% of voters think it is a false story that Hamas terrorists killed 1200 Israeli civilians by shooting, raping and beheading people (ages 18-24: 32%; ages 65+: 10%). It's literally false according to Israel, since at least 300 of the 1200 were soldiers on active duty. Just absolutely dreadful. But I can't find any articles criticising their polls, even Arabic media seem to report on them completely uncritically.
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Dec 17, 2023 21:44
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KillHour posted:I can't believe this is real and not a parody. Nobody is this stupid. To paraphrase what someone posted much earlier in the thread, you can tell Israel is a country that hasn't had to explain itself to anyone for a long time.
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Dec 17, 2023 21:44
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Szarrukin posted:https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-778367 Since I just looked it up on Wikipedia, Metula is a village of ~2k people located about as far away from Gaza as physically possible within Israel's current borders. So this guy is truly disgusting and gross, but he holds no power whatsoever outside his bumfuck village practically located within Lebanon. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metula
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Dec 17, 2023 21:52
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Does anyone have a good template/letter to copy to write to my congresspeople to ask for a ceasefire? I know it won’t happen but I don’t know what else I can possibly do. I feel morally guilty for not doing anything, given that my government is supporting Israel.
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Dec 17, 2023 22:06
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Alchenar posted:I don't know why you leap to 'the poll is wrong' rather than 'the public, young people in particular, regularly hold entirely incompatible beliefs in their head at the same time'. I think if you’re going through the same poo poo over and over again, you should consider that maybe a radical out of left field solution is exactly what the world needs. I think young people just tend to be less cowardly in their intellectual pursuits, and braver in expressing opinions that older people might worry about being offensive or something.
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Dec 17, 2023 22:15
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Jakabite posted:I think if you’re going through the same poo poo over and over again, you should consider that maybe a radical out of left field solution is exactly what the world needs. I think young people just tend to be less cowardly in their intellectual pursuits, and braver in expressing opinions that older people might worry about being offensive or something. I don't think "Jews as a class are oppressors and should be treated as oppressors" (67% of 18-24 agree) is the kind of radical out of left field solution the world needs. And it's not coherent that most 18-24 year olds agreed with that statement while also agreeing that antisemitism is a growing problem (66%), prevalent on college campuses (63%). This age group also said: That a student who calls for genociding the Jews should be free to do so (53%) but it constitutes harassment (71%} and university presidents who defend it should resign (73%). That Israel is trying to avoid civilian casualties (70%) AND committing genocide (60%). That Hamas wants to commit genocide against the Jews in Israel (58%), uses human shields to hide from justice (62%), is primarily responsible for putting the people of Gaza in harm's way (54%), and should be removed from running Gaza (58%). But also "Hamas and the Palestinians" should be given all of Israel's land (51%) - even though Israel has a right to exist (69%}. The attacks on October 7 were genocidal (66%) but justified (60%). And to cap it all off, this age bracket expressed a 50-50 split on whether they support Israel more or support Hamas more. The poll is presenting people with ridiculous "when did you stop beating your wife" level dichotomies where basically every answer communicates an insane misunderstanding of the world. Young people are answering differently than older people because they're pro-Palestine but trying to dig deeper than that is bound to fail. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Dec 17, 2023 |
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Dec 17, 2023 22:34
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Sucrose posted:Does anyone have a good template/letter to copy to write to my congresspeople to ask for a ceasefire? Template letters are less persuasive than individually written letters, because template material is identified and categorized as such by Congressional correspondence software; generally speaking human phone calls are most effective. Actual congressional office responses on this issue are going to be influenced by just how much mediated pressure is occurring, so it may or may not have any effect. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Dec 18, 2023 |
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Dec 18, 2023 00:14
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Civilized Fishbot posted:The poll is presenting people with ridiculous "when did you stop beating your wife" level dichotomies where basically every answer communicates an insane misunderstanding of the world. Young people are answering differently than older people because they're pro-Palestine but trying to dig deeper than that is bound to fail. Similarly it's impossible to meaningfully answer the question "Does Israel have a right to exist?" Without having an answer to the broader philosophical question of "Does every country have a right to exist?" It's the kind of question where the more you know the more you have to admit you don't know.
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Dec 18, 2023 00:50
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I wasn’t commenting on any particular answer to the poll, more that it’s asinine liberal nonsense to look at a seemingly intractable conflict and going ‘let’s just keep doing what we’re doing’. Thankfully Israel continues to prove its right to exist by not being a maniacal Nazi state, so that’s good.
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Dec 18, 2023 01:00
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BRJurgis posted:Not finding much outrage in my personal interactions unfortunately. Entitled ignorance
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Dec 18, 2023 02:20
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BRJurgis posted:Not finding much outrage in my personal interactions unfortunately. I think some of that is bad news fatigue. Even the Ukrainian war which seemed to be a foreign conflict more people gave a drat about has become something people just shrug about now. For a lot of people the I/P conflict has kicked off multiple times in their life time. quote:paying attention and giving a poo poo is self harm Well it can be. I take regular breaks from all news for my mental health sometimes. Mega Comrade fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Dec 18, 2023 |
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Dec 18, 2023 11:09
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Sucrose posted:Does anyone have a good template/letter to copy to write to my congresspeople to ask for a ceasefire? This is exactly what ChatGPT is for
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Dec 18, 2023 12:44
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Sucrose posted:Does anyone have a good template/letter to copy to write to my congresspeople to ask for a ceasefire? I used this as a template. Wrote it myself, but used it for structure and key facts (I think the numbers of Gazan deaths are very outdated at this point though). https://www.amnesty.org/en/petition/demand-a-ceasefire-by-all-parties-to-end-civilian-suffering/
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Dec 18, 2023 16:51
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Mid-Life Crisis posted:This is exactly what ChatGPT is for Horrible idea. Not only are there letters written by humans (more thoughtfully composed + more responsive to incoming news about the horrors), there are also tools that enable you to send them out to all your representatives automatically. https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/resource/email-congress-support-ceasefire/
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Dec 18, 2023 18:06
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chatgpt is really good for making wordy as gently caress paragraphs that will make your reps' eyes glaze over
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Dec 18, 2023 18:12
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You’re allowed to go a few prompts deep before you copy and send
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Dec 18, 2023 18:30
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If you want to write a letter and you live in a psycho red state, then I would suggest at least mentioning that there are a number of Christian Palestinians trapped in Gaza and the IDF’s prominent attacks on Christian churches. That might trick your representative into thinking you are a member of their actual constituency.
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Dec 18, 2023 18:38
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Humans Rights Watch says that Israeli is intentionally starving civilians in Gaza, which should not be a surprise to people paying attention Starvation Used as Weapon of War in Gaza quote:Since Hamas-led fighters attacked Israel on October 7, 2023, high-ranking Israeli officials, including Defense Minister Yoav Gallant, National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir, and Energy Minister Israel Katz have made public statements expressing their aim to deprive civilians in Gaza of food, water and fuel – statements reflecting a policy being carried out by Israeli forces. Other Israeli officials have publicly stated that humanitarian aid to Gaza would be conditioned either on the release of hostages unlawfully held by Hamas or Hamas’ destruction.
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Dec 18, 2023 18:44
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BRJurgis posted:Not finding much outrage in my personal interactions unfortunately. I’m not sure what the background of people you are talking to but Arabs / Muslims in America are a mix of pissed off and fearful. The protesters also had a major impact on the US willingness to, at least rhetorically, support Israel carte blanche in my opinion. It is more about finding people who care than getting your friends / family / etc. to care
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Dec 18, 2023 20:10
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https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/19/world/middleeast/israel-oct-7-left-wing-peace.html This isn't exactly news, but the Israeli electorate appears to be shifting even further to the right. quote:According to polls conducted in the two months since Oct. 7, Israelis have moved decidedly to the right on a number of political issues, including support for settlers in the West Bank, endorsements for far-right politicians, and even the re-establishment of a military occupation of Gaza. There are also some pretty sad anecdotes near the end, but I know this subforum has an overall derisive view of that kind of reporting so I just wanted to call attention to the polling. Eric Cantonese fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Dec 19, 2023 |
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Dec 19, 2023 17:02
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Eric Cantonese posted:https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/19/world/middleeast/israel-oct-7-left-wing-peace.html The Jerusalem Post article they site doesn't seem to link the actual report and I couldn't find it. It kind of goes against what election polls show, i.e. the growing support for Gantz's centre-right party (which is to the left of Netanyahu's Likud). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_Israeli_legislative_election#Polling_graph
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Dec 19, 2023 17:26
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Eh, Gantz's party is negligibly more to the left and probably only because they're willing to form a coalition that includes left-wing or Arab parties. https://m.maariv.co.il/news/politics/Article-1060783 This poll (Hebrew, sorry) shows that if Bennett, who is probably more right wing than Bibi gets most of Gantz's gains if he decides to run. It also shows Otzma Yehudit, the Jewish supremacy unabashedly pro-genocide party pretty much doubles its support to 8 seats. More anecdotally, speaking with Israeli friends and reading bits of Israeli media and Israeli media review (if you can read Hebrew - https://www.the7eye.org.il/) there is a clear shift towards the right, outright facism, insane militarism and blind patriotism. The media sans Haaretz from what I've seen have willingly turned into uncritical IDF propoganda machines.
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Dec 19, 2023 18:09
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https://x.com/navystrang/status/1737123337644675231?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q The Houthis actually shut down the Suez Canal. Goddamn.
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Dec 19, 2023 18:19
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kiminewt posted:Eh, Gantz's party is negligibly more to the left and probably only because they're willing to form a coalition that includes left-wing or Arab parties. I see. So I guess people just don't see Gantz as meaningfully more to the left in terms of the shift in their preference. I know that he prefers not to rock the boat right now with any political statements, so the confusion is understandable. Is there really a chance of Bennett coming back or anyone of the same calibre trying to occupy that niche?
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Dec 19, 2023 18:20
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kiminewt posted:Eh, Gantz's party is negligibly more to the left and probably only because they're willing to form a coalition that includes left-wing or Arab parties. Moreover, the thrust of the original article seems to be that politics in general are shifting hard right, so National Unity of today is probably not left of Likud three months ago.
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Dec 19, 2023 18:26
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The political picture in Israel is shifting basically to "right wing, just not Netanyahu". Benny Gantz, who is leading in all the polls since the war, is seen as right-wing, his former partner Yair Lapid is more of a centrist, and support for his party has plummeted in the polls the past month. From the latest poll (Channel 12 yesterday, don't know if it's in English anywhere yet) Likud has collapsed to 13 mandates (they currently have 32). Yair Lapid's Yesh Atid has 15, and Gantz's National Union has 37. Interestingly, far-right Bezalel Smotrich's Religious Zionist party also dropped below the threshold of 4 seats; his support seems to have gone to even-more-fascist Itamar Ben Gvir's Otzma Yehudit, which polls at 8 seats. Some consolidation behind the most extreme voice there. Full results: National Union (right/centrist) Gantz): 37 Yesh Atid (centrist, Lapid): 15 Likud (Netanyahu, right-wing): 13 Shas (Mizrahi ultra-Orthodox): 11 Yisrael Beitenu (Liberman, right-wing): 9 Otzma Yehudit (Ben Gvir, fascist): 8 United Torah Judaism (ultra-Orthodox): 7 Hadash-Ta'al (Arab, left-wing): 5 Meretz (left-wing): 5 Ra'am (Arab, Islamist): 5 Labor (left-wing): OUT Religious Zionism (ultra right-wing): OUT Balad (Arab, nationalist): OUT Essentially impossible for any coalition to form without Gantz. This is also why elections will be put off as long as possible, most current MKs would lose their seats. In other grimmer news, actual no-poo poo Kahanists are giving concerts for the IDF. Really tells you where things are headed. (For those unfamiliar with Kahane/Kahanism, he advocated ethnic cleansing of all Palestinians and a theocracy within Israel, "Kahane was right" in Israel has been for a long time a slogan that's a very slightly veiled way of saying "Kill/expel the Palestinians".) https://x.com/YehudaShaul/status/1737112319736623537 Lum_ fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Dec 19, 2023 |
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Dec 19, 2023 18:26
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Paladinus posted:I see. So I guess people just don't see Gantz as meaningfully more to the left in terms of the shift in their preference. I know that he prefers not to rock the boat right now with any political statements, so the confusion is understandable. Is there really a chance of Bennett coming back or anyone of the same calibre trying to occupy that niche? Another factor here is that the rightward shift is in large part driven by people who were to the left of Gantz moving toward Gantz, at least as much as people who were already to the right of Gantz moving farther away from him. For example, October 7 drastically reduced Israeli sentiment toward a two-state solution ("They don't even have a state and this is what they did, imagine what they would do if they did have a state.") But Gantz was already to the right of a two state solution (he talks about "two entities" but refuses to say "two states"). Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Dec 19, 2023 |
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Dec 19, 2023 18:28
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Eric Cantonese posted:https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/19/world/middleeast/israel-oct-7-left-wing-peace.html This is inevitable given the policies in place and the self selection that impacts the demographics of Israel. When you give free money to religious extremists who can then have as many kids as they want you are on a downward slope to economic collapse. That isn't going to change, only get worse, with the threat of ethnic cleansing, genocide, and regional war growing. Those same extremists want all the land from the border of Iran down through Egypt and up through Syria. I could see Israel at some point going for a land grab to distract from economic woes and also to garner support from the extremists who want all that land. The use of nuclear weapons, or the implicit threat being used to limit any response from the countries in the region. I don't think Israel will ever use their nuclear weapons in a cavalier manner, but the threat is always present. I do wonder at what point the USA finally sees Israel as a spent tool and abandons them. Maybe once Saudi Arabia has run dry of oil and the West has other resources to exploit outside the region.
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Dec 19, 2023 18:32
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Paladinus posted:I see. So I guess people just don't see Gantz as meaningfully more to the left in terms of the shift in their preference. I know that he prefers not to rock the boat right now with any political statements, so the confusion is understandable. Is there really a chance of Bennett coming back or anyone of the same calibre trying to occupy that niche? I don't think Bennett will come back, but there could be someone trying to occupy that niche, who knows. The elections are probably far off because as people said here, all the people in power would like to prolong this as much as possible so it's too early to even speculate. Then again, I assume /some/ heads will cool after a while. But the Israeli left currently being Meretz at five seats should tell you what to expect. The Maariv poll also asked about a combined Meretz-Labour party headed by ex-Meretz now-considered military guy "hero" Yair Golan (when he heard about the Hamas incursions he went in his personal car to where the rave was and tried to get people out of there). That theoretical party got 9 seats. Sadly, anyone looking for a ray of light coming from the Israeli populace in the next.. ever, I suspect, will be disappointed. EDIT: Also incidentally almost every person I talk to from Israel asks me if I'm okay with all the antisemitism going on (I live in France), so I feel like they're really hammering the point over there that anywhere other than Israel isn't safe for Jews. Not discounting the rise in antisemitism but they were talking like people are getting beaten in the streets. kiminewt fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Dec 19, 2023 |
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Dec 19, 2023 18:40
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Paladinus posted:I see. So I guess people just don't see Gantz as meaningfully more to the left in terms of the shift in their preference. I know that he prefers not to rock the boat right now with any political statements, so the confusion is understandable. Is there really a chance of Bennett coming back or anyone of the same calibre trying to occupy that niche? Bennett has been giving interviews and raising his profile, so it's possible. Another possibility is the ex-head of Mossad, Yossi Cohen, who is also making noises about running and is seen as "Likud, but not Netanyahu". In polling both theoretical parties do around 13-15 seats or so, mostly taking support from National Union and Yesh Atid. As mentioned Yair Golan is another potential player; he's a retired general who's a left-leaning centrist (on the record as supporting the two state solution, for example, which is rare in Israel), who has a really big mouth and is an awful politician but scored a lot of points for personally rescuing people on 10/7. Unfortunately, his polling at around 9 seats (which would be the combined total for Meretz and Labor if Labor breaks the threshold) indicates a very hard ceiling for anything to the left of Gantz currently.
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Dec 19, 2023 18:54
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