|
2house2fly posted:He can approve of mass death in the abstract, at a remove, but when confronted with it viscerally and asked to be complicit in it, he can't stand that. He has too much humanity in him, versus Doctor Manhattan who can only view any event in the abstract, at a remove No, if nuking Japan had been obfuscated as to motive or perpetrator, he likely would have had a different opinion. It’s the dishonesty and manipulation that’s his issue. Honest and forthright mass murder is fine.
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2023 03:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 10:37 |
|
|
edit: wrong
well why not fucked around with this message at 04:43 on Dec 18, 2023 |
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2023 04:40
|
|
|
Bogus Adventure posted:I didn't say Daisy Ridley is a bad actor. I said Rey is boring as gently caress. And I’ve said a billion times she elevates it. Idc what the lore is for ashoka she stunk in the show and was by far the dullest Star Wars character. I don’t get the anakin comparison bc with Hayden it’s just he’s real flat in the film. His actual arc is fine.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2023 05:05
|
|
|
CelticPredator posted:And I’ve said a billion times she elevates it. Idc what the lore is for ashoka she stunk in the show and was by far the dullest Star Wars character. You said Rey is charismatic. I don't see that whatsoever with the character. At least Anakin was supposed to be a creepy weirdo who was getting more and more frustrated with getting dunked on by Obi-Wan. That being said, Hayden loving killed the whole "I hate them!" speech in AotC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Yx7KJnU3Iw&t=51s
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2023 05:46
|
|
|
Rey is just kinda there, she’s serviceable but I don’t rate many of her scenes outside of her intro and the Kylo stuff. She’s fine as a blank slate for the others to be more interesting near.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2023 05:54
|
|
|
The only character with any meat to them was Finn, and the interesting aspect to his character (pretending to be a rebel) is quickly abandoned within the first half of the first movie so that they can just turn him into generic good guy action figure person
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2023 06:00
|
|
|
Bogus Adventure posted:You said Rey is charismatic. I don't see that whatsoever with the character. At least Anakin was supposed to be a creepy weirdo who was getting more and more frustrated with getting dunked on by Obi-Wan. I don’t like this scene or the prequels. Or Hayden in the role. But I’m happy he’s back in Star Wars because it’s cool to give people who weren’t looked fondly on originally a second chance 😎
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2023 06:23
|
|
|
CelticPredator posted:I don’t like this scene or the prequels. Or Hayden in the role. Well, then we can simply agree to disagree. Because I don't like the sequels. Or anyone in their roles, with the exception of Boyega and, to a limited extent, Driver. Everyone else is just banal.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2023 06:35
|
|
|
I hope Rosario Dawson shows up in a Zack movie down the road.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2023 07:11
|
|
|
ruddiger posted:I hope Rosario Dawson shows up in a Zack movie down the road. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2023 07:55
|
|
|
haven't seen her in nearly enough things but Daisy Ridley seems like an excellent actor. so much so that pretty much any of Rey's likeability or intrigue as a protagonist is basically just what she brings to the part. It's not nearly enough, but she's good enough that she elevates a nothing character into something resembling a real person with basically no text to work with
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2023 18:42
|
|
|
That’s what I was trying to get at. She elevated the character who didn’t have the most going on.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2023 18:44
|
|
|
Adam Driver is much the same. What is there to be interested in about Kylo Ren? Well, he's played by Adam Driver. That's about it. Oscar Isaac too, but fair enough as he wasn't meant to live past the first hour of the first movie.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2023 19:44
|
|
|
2house2fly posted:Adam Driver is much the same. What is there to be interested in about Kylo Ren? Well, he's played by Adam Driver. That's about it. Oscar Isaac too, but fair enough as he wasn't meant to live past the first hour of the first movie. He had a strong foundation in TFA, imo. Lanky/fast guy silhouette with crazy force powers but he tries to brute force everything, desperate to prove himself which makes him seem dangerous/unpredictable. Great lightsaber fight at the end, and they carried through with that into TLJ with him killing Snoke, I was mega hype for this character in that moment especially, but then right after him and Rey just go back to like everything's "normal" first order vs. resistance instead of the movie going anywhere cool. It just got more deflated after that as the movie's finale is just everything going back to how it was. I loved the very ending though at the same time, because it made me hopeful for some kind of substantial time jump or some new characters or that we'd come into a Finn/Rey/Poe that have drastically changed in some way. Whelp. Finn also had a great foundation. What a loving waste of talent.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2023 20:02
|
|
|
Friendly reminder! I'll be streaming Rebel Moon Thursday and Friday night this week at 9PM central both days in the CineD Discord   If you have Netflix, I'll be hosting a Scener room as well so you can sync to the Discord stream 
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2023 21:29
|
|
|
Tea Party Crasher posted:The only character with any meat to them was Finn, and the interesting aspect to his character (pretending to be a rebel) is quickly abandoned within the first half of the first movie so that they can just turn him into generic good guy action figure person Finn was such a wasted opportunity. “Story of a stormtrooper switching sides and eventually becoming a Jedi” is such an obvious and interesting premise, and Disney went “nah”.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2023 21:38
|
|
|
Equeen posted:Finn was such a wasted opportunity. “Story of a stormtrooper switching sides and eventually becoming a Jedi” is such an obvious and interesting premise, and Disney went “nah”. Finn's journey of stormtrooper to rebel to Jedi feels more like an RPG character changing classes rather than a human being going through character growth. I like it in the first movie because we get insight into his nagging doubts about the first order, and then see him cynically pretend to be a rebel to hide his past from Rey, before ultimately joining the rebels in earnest. You can empathize with his situation without him being an immediately good person with all the right intentions, and we get to witness this change in him. Meanwhile I couldn't tell you poo poo about what Finn becoming force sensitive / a Jedi means for him as a person, it comes across to me as somebody writing a Star wars and going "well, using the force is important, So thus it will be meaningful That Finn can use the force". Okay? But what the gently caress does it say about him, where he is in life, why he does anything. Even more bizarre is that we go from him getting a new love interest in TLJ, then they drop that, and he's reduced back to some guy who has a crush on Rey. God it sucks!!! Look at what they did to my boy!!!
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2023 21:51
|
|
|
Tea Party Crasher posted:Meanwhile I couldn't tell you poo poo about what Finn becoming force sensitive / a Jedi means for him as a person, it comes across to me as somebody writing a Star wars and going "well, using the force is important, So thus it will be meaningful That Finn can use the force". Okay? But what the gently caress does it say about him, where he is in life, why he does anything. That's an interesting question and its answer could have been used to explore what a Jedi even is in this new context. Finn has been isolated his whole life and seeks connections, and what is the Force but the stuff that binds things together. He has suddenly discovered his internal life, learning the ways of the Force might have lead him to discover empathy. But then he already has all of that, and also the brainwashed child soldiers are just regular blokes who just, like, hang out at Starkiller base or wherever.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2023 21:56
|
|
|
I still can't believe they actually got JJ to say "oh when Finn was about to drown in quick sand his last words were going to be telling Rey he was force sensitive". Like what an embarrassing joke lol
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2023 22:09
|
|
|
Equeen posted:Finn was such a wasted opportunity. “Story of a stormtrooper switching sides and eventually becoming a Jedi” is such an obvious and interesting premise, and Disney went “nah”. Finn leading a stormtrooper rebellion against the Empire in Episode IX was such a slam-dunk great idea from Treverrow that it's almost impressive that Abrams just tossed it out when he came onboard.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2023 23:22
|
|
|
The way Finn gets treated is one of the reasons I really hate the ST. In TFA it's like his character exists so that any negative consequences from Rey's actions falls on him. He gets shoved around, turned into a joke, and gets jobbed out to a wounded Kylo Ren to show how strong the latter still is before Rey beats Kylo's rear end. And rather than let him grow into a hero the same way Luke did from the ANH to ROTJ they turned him into the guy who just shouts "Rey!" It's absolutely disgusting.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2023 05:32
|
|
|
It's grim but amusing how both the DCU and Star Wars sequels derailed in part because the studio just couldn't sideline the black lead hard enough. (and the former is even back on topic!) The accusations that they just had to play down Finn to appease mean ol' China always felt like pre-emptive excuses.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2023 07:20
|
|
|
I still don't entirely buy the "it's because china is racist" story, the Fast & Furious movies make a huge amount of money over there, as did Aquaman.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2023 07:34
|
|
|
well why not posted:I still don't entirely buy the "it's because china is racist" story, the Fast & Furious movies make a huge amount of money over there, as did Aquaman. Here's the bigger giveaway: America is racist.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2023 07:38
|
|
|
Chairman Capone posted:Finn leading a stormtrooper rebellion against the Empire in Episode IX was such a slam-dunk great idea from Treverrow that it's almost impressive that Abrams just tossed it out when he came onboard. Not just Trevorrow, they were laying the groundwork in the original cut of The Last Jedi as well (where Finn convinced a squad of Stormtroopers to turn against Phasma). Abrams and Terrio included Jannah and her squad as a nod to the idea of a Stormtrooper rebellion, but they specifically didn't make their going AWOL a result of Finn's actions because they didn't want it to seem like Finn was "an aberration". But if your protagonist doesn't have anything to set them apart from his peers, why are we following his story?
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2023 07:53
|
|
|
2house2fly posted:He can approve of mass death in the abstract, at a remove, but when confronted with it viscerally and asked to be complicit in it, he can't stand that. He has too much humanity in him, versus Doctor Manhattan who can only view any event in the abstract, at a remove The other way round. Rorschach wants nuclear Armageddon to be back on the table. Even Manhattan refuses to accept the atrocity that would ensue if Rorschach would be allowed to live. That's why he kills him. The entire story is really about the value of humans as compromised, flawed, unexpected individuals. As the one that ultimately rejects that part of himself, Rorschach is the villain of the story. Even Veidt is humanised by his doubts at the end. Rorschach is turned into a bloody smear once he makes the Never Compromise speech because to Manhattan, the objective observer, he's just not that interesting any more. Fangz fucked around with this message at 13:46 on Dec 19, 2023 |
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2023 13:37
|
|
|
Fangz posted:The other way round. Rorschach wants nuclear Armageddon to be back on the table. Even Manhattan refuses to accept the atrocity that would ensue if Rorschach would be allowed to live. That's why he kills him. This is a baffling reading of Rorschach's motivations at the end of the story. Do you think he's revealed to be sobbing under his mask in his last moments because he just loves nuclear war so much and he's upset it's not going to happen now? The villain of the story is the delusional narcissist who killed a bunch of people at the end of it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2023 14:26
|
|
|
Flying Zamboni posted:This is a baffling reading of Rorschach's motivations at the end of the story. Do you think he's revealed to be sobbing under his mask in his last moments because he just loves nuclear war so much and he's upset it's not going to happen now? If Ozy was the real villain of the story they would of had Doctor Manhattan tell him his plan was flawed rather than Laurie.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2023 14:39
|
|
|
PriorMarcus posted:If Ozy was the real villain of the story they would of had Doctor Manhattan tell him his plan was flawed rather than Laurie. You're right I forgot about this scene: 
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2023 14:56
|
|
|
PriorMarcus posted:If Ozy was the real villain of the story they would of had Doctor Manhattan tell him his plan was flawed rather than Laurie. He does. "Nothing ever ends." e: beat me to it by a second, dammit
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2023 15:02
|
|
|
Flying Zamboni posted:You're right I forgot about this scene: Lmao
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2023 15:17
|
|
|
Fangz posted:Even Veidt is humanised by his doubts at the end. Rorschach's beliefs are a contradictory mess, obviously, but if he could be read as belong to any political tendency, he's a Barry Goldwater Republican. The people who believed we should "confront" the USSR and flirted with the notion that Eisenhower was secretly a Communist. (The propaganda that Rorschach reads was clearly inspired by John Birch Society stuff.) The point is not really whether or not he's a good person, he dies because there's no place for him in the new world order Veidt is ushering in. Veidt, on the other hand, is a shockingly on-the-nose prediction of the fascism inherent in American liberalism. Not only did he plot the deaths of 15 million people, he positioned himself to make billions off of the aftermath. His struggle to (paraphrased) "not conquer people, but conquer the ills that afflict them" just meant making the world safe for capitalism. He justifies this to himself by having a special Feelings Room where he goes to meditate and consciously induce feelings of guilt about being a world-historical monster. I can go on about how Veidt represents what various amoral ghouls and spooks refer to as the "rules based international order," but the point is, Veidt didn't kill 15,000,000 people to save the world, he did it to make more money that he didn't need. Whether or not he feels a twinge of self-doubt about that is really neither here nor there.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2023 17:19
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:He does. "Nothing ever ends." Just incase it needs stating I'm aware that the comic gives this line to Doctor Manhattan, I was joking about the Watchmen film changing that. It's the only change I think really damages the ending and to this day I don't understand it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2023 17:23
|
|
|
Fangz posted:The other way round. Rorschach wants nuclear Armageddon to be back on the table. Even Manhattan refuses to accept the atrocity that would ensue if Rorschach would be allowed to live. That's why he kills him. turning a big dial taht says "Genocide" on it and constantly look back at god for approval like a contestant on the price is right
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2023 18:37
|
|
|
Halloween Jack posted:You were fooled. Good post, everybody pretend I wrote this
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2023 19:05
|
|
|
Fangz posted:The other way round. Rorschach wants nuclear Armageddon to be back on the table. Even Manhattan refuses to accept the atrocity that would ensue if Rorschach would be allowed to live. That's why he kills him. Amazing reading of the Watchmen comic book from a regular poster in the Something Awful Comic Book subforum.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2023 19:20
|
|
|
I'm sure most of you are familiar with the surface level interpretation of Rorschach being meant to represent someone with "black and white" or binary values, which for the record I think partially tells the truth about him. In relation to the nuclear war discussion, I feel The reaction of each character at the end explores how morality is warped by scale. Rorschach is willing to investigate the murder of a terrible person, not because he's concerned about the cause and effect of it, but because to him wrongdoing has been performed and it has to be corrected. He is certainly extra judicious about how he corrects things, but at least for him there is a moral fabric to defend and maintain rather than viewing society in a mechanical "ends justify the means" fashion. Veidt and Dr Manhattan meanwhile are not as invested in the individual humanity of any given person, or respect a kind of social moral contract. Killing millions is permissible when viewed from a utilitarian number crunching perspective, where sacrificing x amount of lives can save y amount of lives. To them it makes sense mechanically to manufacture this peace because on a larger scale that seems good. Unfortunately that thinking then diminishes the value of any individuals life that is necessary for that sacrifice, and at large diminishes the value of any person's life if they expose the lie. It's a magician's trick that wants to appear prohuman on the face, but requires viewing any mundane person as subhuman and expendable. So maybe Rorschach is a hosed up contradictory mess of a human being, but he's at least invested on the human level of scale. And that's a difficult point of reference to be prohuman on, because then you have to accept how hosed up people are in order to want to help them. It's easier to anonymize and atomize everybody by taking the larger global perspective. Tea Party Crasher fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Dec 19, 2023 |
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2023 19:24
|
|
|
Roth posted:Amazing reading of the Watchmen comic book from a regular poster in the Something Awful Comic Book subforum. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Dec 19, 2023 |
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2023 19:28
|
|
|
Halloween Jack posted:I mean, Fangz doesn't even approach the flat-out "Rorschach was right" takes we got in the thread about the movie. That take is far better supported by the text than "Rorschach just loves nuclear war so much he was crying and demanding to be killed" take so it really doesn't approach that.
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2023 20:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 10:37 |
|
|
What texts are you reading that say it's good to kill 15,000,000 people? I didn't even know Henry Kissinger wrote any comics!
|
|
#
?
Dec 19, 2023 20:13
|
|