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A Buttery Pastry posted:Do you think the average Dane was involved? Norway was just as complicit as Denmark in our colonialism and slavery. Hell, "Danish" slavery in the Caribbean was started by a Norwegian merchant from Bergen, even if it was obviously at the behest of the Danish king. The Kingdom of Denmark-Norway was a partnership between (upper-class) equals, which explains why the Norwegian upper class immediately attempted to rejoin Denmark at the end of the Napoleonic wars. i do think there's a meaningful danish national character to the absolute monarchy based in copenhagen tbh
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Dec 18, 2023 15:15
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I just wanted to use the meme, frankly.
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Dec 18, 2023 15:19
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Anders posted:I assume you're talking about the Norse and thralls? 'cause that was about 800 years prior, and thralls weren't traded in any extent afaik I mean, slave trafficking was one of the biggest moneymakers for the vikings, so slaves were absolutely traded. zokie posted:Statare was a thing in Sweden long into the 20th century and many of them were de facto serfs, while not chattel slavery we don’t have to look back far for this sort of thing. (Or at all if looking outside of what is legal) Was a thing that started pretty late to begin with, in the major land consolidations of the 18th and 19th centuries that left alot of peasants landless and were pushed into a rural prekariat of sorts. but yeah it lasted until embarassingly late (until like 1950 i think?). Had a very old uni lecturer who sometimes told anecdotes about his life, once mentioned some interaction he had with local statare, a reminder that it is still in living memory. Before that (medieval times) you had farmhands employed by nobility and land-owning peasants that were basically considereded "omyndiga", with legal agreements, marriage and so on were decided for them by their employers, like a conservatorship, but with the right to physically discipline them. Falukorv fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Dec 18, 2023 |
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Dec 18, 2023 15:26
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Den som använder en meme på andra, blir oftast en meme själv.
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Dec 18, 2023 15:27
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I feel like my playful jab at Denmark spiraled a bit out of control.
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Dec 18, 2023 16:32
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Interestingly enough, the Vikings did a whole lot of trade and what would probably classify as colonization - except that at least for the latter, the reason there's not much evidence of it today, is that the Vikings simply embedded themselves into the existing societies (or died out, like in Great Vineland). All the same, the trick to having done some absolutely atrocious things is, to borrow a phrase from David Mitchell, to have done it a long time ago and convince everyone you were wearing funny hats when doing it - because the raping, pillaging, and other atrocities of the Vikings isn't really treated with the same seriousness as what other Empires have done throughout history.
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Dec 18, 2023 16:34
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Anders posted:I tried once to confirm this but didn't find any sources to back this up (I was trying to argue that Norway has just as dark a past under colonialism as other European nations). But I'd be happy if you have any sources that Norway was as bad as Denmark I'd appreciate it Anders posted:edit: Jørgen Thormøhlen was born in Holstein when that was a part of the Danish crown lands, if we're getting technical about it  big scary monsters posted:Yeah I'm not sure any country in Europe comes off well in a game of "crimes of empire", which makes it a silly game to play if you don't have a point to go with it. Maybe there is one country somewhere that somehow missed out on all the plundering, but it's not Norway. Taking into account 20th century crimes, I guess we're left with like Slovenia and Albania perhaps? V. Illych L. posted:i do think there's a meaningful danish national character to the absolute monarchy based in copenhagen tbh
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Dec 18, 2023 16:35
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A Buttery Pastry posted:What part of it was particularly Danish? The monarchy was German to the point that our king tried to secretly join a German federation in the 19th century. the court and military officers all being trained in the danish language in institutions in denmark, all national authority being centralised through a building in denmark, danish being the language of public administration, etc
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Dec 18, 2023 16:39
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the culture war manifestation of the backlash to danicisation in norway, Målstriden, just produced a nobel prize in literature it's highly kartoffel-brained to suggest that denmark-norway was some kind of equal partnership
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Dec 18, 2023 16:41
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A Buttery Pastry posted:
Languagequeer germans. LBGTS'GU.
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Dec 18, 2023 16:45
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V. Illych L. posted:the culture war manifestation of the backlash to danicisation in norway, Målstriden, just produced a nobel prize in literature
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Dec 18, 2023 19:29
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I'm not sure a country producing a nationalist culture war is evidence of anything. Besides, the only reason you think of Danish as a unified language is because the same process took place here, and continued after Norway came under Swedish control. Which is my point. Denmark and Norway were equal in the fact that they were territories ruled from Copenhagen, by people speaking German and courtly Danish (an upper class sociolect spoken in the immediate vicinity of Copenhagen), who didn't really care about anywhere else beyond what was required to keep or gain control of it. Obviously Copenhagen was top dog, but it was very much Copenhagen running the show, not Denmark. You're not wrong, but you're also describing a pretty clear divide based on class more than geography. The ruling elite lived (Mette is from Aalborg, clearly things have changed) in Copenhagen, but plenty of people in Copenhagen were not elites. I think the elite part is the essential thing, their location is mostly incidental. BlankSystemDaemon posted:Interestingly enough, the Vikings did a whole lot of trade and what would probably classify as colonization - except that at least for the latter, the reason there's not much evidence of it today, is that the Vikings simply embedded themselves into the existing societies (or died out, like in Great Vineland). The Norse conquests of Normandy and England definitely count as early colonialism, but yeah, a lot more Roman style divide and conquer, but with pretty lax connection to the homeland. But the actual point I wanted to bring up is the theory that the Norse Greenland colony might actually have just assimilated into the native Greenlandic population because the whole agriculture and trade style of life didn't work out.
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Dec 18, 2023 19:49
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Nice piece of fish posted:Languagequeer germans. LBGTS'GU. Booo. I boo that.
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Dec 18, 2023 20:03
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BonHair posted:You're not wrong, but you're also describing a pretty clear divide based on class more than geography. The ruling elite lived (Mette is from Aalborg, clearly things have changed) in Copenhagen, but plenty of people in Copenhagen were not elites. I think the elite part is the essential thing, their location is mostly incidental.
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Dec 18, 2023 20:38
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Anders posted:Henrik Wergeland called the period "400 years of Darkness" that was Ibsen in the 1860s, not that Wergeland wasn't critical of the period as well.
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Dec 18, 2023 21:24
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ulvir posted:that was Ibsen in the 1860s, not that Wergeland wasn't critical of the period as well. You're right, my bad
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Dec 18, 2023 21:47
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I'm not sure a country producing a nationalist culture war is evidence of anything. Besides, the only reason you think of Danish as a unified language is because the same process took place here, and continued after Norway came under Swedish control. Which is my point. Denmark and Norway were equal in the fact that they were territories ruled from Copenhagen, by people speaking German and courtly Danish (an upper class sociolect spoken in the immediate vicinity of Copenhagen), who didn't really care about anywhere else beyond what was required to keep or gain control of it. Obviously Copenhagen was top dog, but it was very much Copenhagen running the show, not Denmark. so your claim here is that copenhagen is/was not a meaningfully danish city in denmark. this is nonsense, sorry. i agree that there are similarities to be had between the danish periphery and the norwegian holdings, but if we accept that there is such a thing as a danish and a norwegian nation then copenhagen very definitely forms the centre of the danish nation during the union period. it is denmark-norway, after all, not copenhagen-jutland-norway or whatever
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Dec 19, 2023 00:49
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V. Illych L. posted:so your claim here is that copenhagen is/was not a meaningfully danish city in denmark. this is nonsense, sorry. V. Illych L. posted:i agree that there are similarities to be had between the danish periphery and the norwegian holdings, but if we accept that there is such a thing as a danish and a norwegian nation then copenhagen very definitely forms the centre of the danish nation during the union period. V. Illych L. posted:it is denmark-norway, after all, not copenhagen-jutland-norway or whatever
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Dec 19, 2023 06:45
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V. Illych L. posted:so your claim here is that copenhagen is/was not a meaningfully danish city in denmark. this is nonsense, sorry. I certainly wouldn't mind if you said that the upper class in Denmark, most of which lived in Copenhagen, were not meaningfully Danish at various points. But that has to do with social stratification and power dynamics in Europe in general.
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Dec 19, 2023 08:05
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Philippe posted:Booo. To be fair, I'm not funny.
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Dec 19, 2023 09:23
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I present as evidence exibit #1: my entire posting history. The defence rests.
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Dec 19, 2023 09:26
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Mojahedin-e-Khalq attended a conference in the Danish parliament. This is Politiken's characterization of the CIA proxy terrorist cult. I feel like there's some information missing here.
SplitSoul fucked around with this message at 10:27 on Dec 19, 2023 |
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Dec 19, 2023 10:25
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Nice piece of fish posted:Languagequeer germans. LBGTS'GU. "#fedidwgugl"-rear end post.
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Dec 19, 2023 12:19
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SplitSoul posted:Mojahedin-e-Khalq attended a conference in the Danish parliament. This is Politiken's characterization of the CIA proxy terrorist cult. I feel like there's some information missing here.
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Dec 19, 2023 19:33
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Being a politician has to be one of the easiest job in the world. Yeah but you aren't considering the fact that there's a requirement for being a sociopath and having no spine.
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Dec 19, 2023 19:38
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BonHair posted:You're not wrong, but you're also describing a pretty clear divide based on class more than geography. The ruling elite lived (Mette is from Aalborg, clearly things have changed) in Copenhagen, but plenty of people in Copenhagen were not elites. I think the elite part is the essential thing, their location is mostly incidental. Norse conquests are more aligned with the german Volkerwanderung migration wars of the late western roman era. With the possible exception of king Canute, the norse conquered to settle and separate from their homeland on a far more permanent basis than would be the case in colonialism, which is about supplying the homeland with wealth. Colonialism also required more sophisticated means of communication and travel than were avalible at the time.
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Dec 19, 2023 20:02
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Mette Frederiksen is likely the worst PM in this country's history. Hide your daughters. https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/politik/amerikanske-soldater-skal-retsforfoelges-i-usa-selvom-de-begaar-kriminalitet-i quote:Hvis en amerikansk soldat begår kriminalitet i Danmark, bliver det amerikanske myndigheder, der skal retsforfølge vedkommende - ikke de danske.
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Dec 19, 2023 23:46
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A Buttery Pastry posted:This is specious reasoning. Just because a state is given a name does not mean the name is representative of the state. You could just as well argue that it is evidence that Norway was at least understood as a thing worthy of seeing as a separate thing, while most of Denmark was just lumped under the hegemony of Copenhagen and ignored. yes, that is part of my argument norway was a recognised national polity through the period of danish rule. denmark, likewise, was a recognised national polity through the period of danish rule. the capitol of denmark was copenhagen, which was also the capitol of norway and the seat of power of norwegian administration following the imposition by the king of the reformation in norway. that meant that the king of denmark, seated in the royal power of the kingdom of denmark, was also the king of the secondary realm of norway, meaning that the kingdom of norway was a subordinate kingdom to the kingdom in denmark. this is borne out by most national institutions of the monarchy being localised in the kingdom of denmark. this is only possible to argue against if you argue that copenhagen was a separate polity entirely from the remainder of denmark. i do not think that you have developed that case sufficiently beyond assertions about the courtly language and the national-romantic period of danish monarchism conveninently post-dating 1814. V. Illych L. fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Dec 19, 2023 |
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Dec 19, 2023 23:54
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I'm sure Gaden will be very accommodating for our new overlords.
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Dec 19, 2023 23:55
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norwegian autonomy was also abolished before the introduction of absolutism (up here the general accounting is that it happened sometime in the early 1500s), during which time the crown relied mainly on danish aristocrats for military clout of course, if one adheres strictly to the idea of the nation as dependent on the modern national states that emerged during the 19th century, then this is not relevant, but then neither norway nor denmark as modern countries bear any culpability in a trade which preceded them e:https://www.norgeshistorie.no/kirkestat/1108-selvstendighetstap-og-foreningstid.html: quote:(...)at Norge «heretter [skal] være og forbli under Danmarks krone, liksom en av de andre landsdelene, Jylland, Fyn, Sjælland eller Skåne er, og heretter ikke være eller kalles et eget kongerike, men en del av Danmarks rike og under Danmarks krone til evig tid». of course, in practice never became as integrated a part of denmark as those other provinces (except for skåne which was lost in the many drubbings imposed upon the kingdom by the swedes), but the idea that denmark and norway were equal components of denmark-norway is quite ahistorical V. Illych L. fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Dec 20, 2023 |
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Dec 20, 2023 00:06
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tbh unify all scandinavian countries under one single banner and let Førde be the capital
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Dec 20, 2023 00:22
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Stalins Moustache posted:tbh unify all scandinavian countries under one single banner and let Førde be the capital i would not be opposed to this arrangement
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Dec 20, 2023 00:25
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Stalins Moustache posted:tbh unify all scandinavian countries under one single banner and let Førde be the capital
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Dec 20, 2023 00:38
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eit folk, eit rik', eit førde
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Dec 20, 2023 00:59
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SplitSoul posted:Mette Frederiksen is likely the worst PM in this country's history. Hide your daughters. The prime minister demonstrating her comprehensive knowledge of history: Mette Frederiksen posted:Nu har vi ingen forventning om, at der kommer til at ske uhyrlige forbrydelser, det er amerikanske soldater, vi taler om.
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Dec 20, 2023 01:00
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https://www.ft.dk/samling/20231/afstemning/193.htmquote:Resumé: Inferior Third Season posted:The prime minister demonstrating her comprehensive knowledge of history: How did I miss that? 
SplitSoul fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Dec 20, 2023 |
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Dec 20, 2023 01:55
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V. Illych L. posted:norwegian autonomy was also abolished before the introduction of absolutism (up here the general accounting is that it happened sometime in the early 1500s), during which time the crown relied mainly on danish aristocrats for military clout V. Illych L. posted:e:https://www.norgeshistorie.no/kirkestat/1108-selvstendighetstap-og-foreningstid.html:
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Dec 20, 2023 06:27
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A Buttery Pastry posted:does not mean its constituent territories had any more pull than their Norwegian counterparts. You're reaching so far, unwittingly demonstrating how distance alone makes your argument daft
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Dec 20, 2023 07:09
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Are you saying we should just tell Ghana to take a hike because that was old Denmark, and new Denmark didn't kidnap their people to work in plantations in the New World? I'm saying that.
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Dec 20, 2023 08:17
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Are you saying we should just tell Ghana to take a hike because that was old Denmark, and new Denmark didn't kidnap their people to work in plantations in the New World? no, i'm saying that if one takes your argument that "denmark" only came into being in the 19th century it necessarily implies that. my argument is that there have been more-or-less recognisable national polities called "norway" and "denmark" and that these were in a union ruled from denmark for several hundred years, meaning that the polity "denmark" bears more responsibility for the actions of the actions of the union quote:You're arguing my case here. Norway having some degree of autonomy puts it ahead of Denmark outside Copenhagen, when talking about an entirely non-democratic system. Obviously the Danish state was on top in the arrangement, but that the state was on top does not mean its constituent territories had any more pull than their Norwegian counterparts. this is not your case, or at least it wasn't when we started arguing about this. your case then was: A Buttery Pastry posted:Do you think the average Dane was involved? Norway was just as complicit as Denmark in our colonialism and slavery. Hell, "Danish" slavery in the Caribbean was started by a Norwegian merchant from Bergen, even if it was obviously at the behest of the Danish king. The Kingdom of Denmark-Norway was a partnership between (upper-class) equals, which explains why the Norwegian upper class immediately attempted to rejoin Denmark at the end of the Napoleonic wars. (emphases mine) to which i responded with a quip about the copenhagen monarchy having some substantive connection to the danish nation. you have tried various strategies to counter this, including the above mentioned assertion that quote:The Danish nation was hammered into being in the 19th century, following the Struensee debacle and the loss of Norway and Slesvig-Holstein. Before that point, the Danish identity, such as it was, referred to the larger imperial identity that encompassed all the peoples of the realm. and an argument that copenhagen was strictly separate from any danish national polity that may have existed because of the language spoken in its institutions and germanophilia of much of its elite. the latter case is imo the most interesting here, but it needs a lot of work before it can do what you want it to do. my position is that while denmark-norway started out as a coalition between danish and norwegian nobility, the danes got the upper hand fairly quickly, to the point of abolishing or subjugating norwegian-leaning institutions such as the catholic church and placing danish nobles in charge of major norwegian governmental positions (båhus, akershus and bergenhus in particular). this culminated in a situation where norway was officially a province "like any other" under the danish crown. while this integration never fully worked out for various reasons and the norwegian territories in practice had greater autonomy than e.g. fyn, it in my view is quite incompatible with denmark-norway being constitutionally a partnership between equals and therefore means that historical culpability for danish-norwegian policies rest to a greater degree in copenhagen than in e.g. bergen or christiania, and thus to a greater degree in denmark than in norway. none of this is to say that norway is entirely blameless in these affairs, of course.
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Dec 20, 2023 11:02
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