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moths posted:So "no." This is gross and you shouldn't be cheering for the targeting and kidnapping of innocents. Shooting missiles or using drones against commercial shipping isn't "property damage." What is wrong with you.
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Dec 20, 2023 17:52
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Aside from the morality of it, it's interesting how effective this seemed to be. Half the ship traffic had to take the long way, and suddenly Israel is talking ceasefire for hostages and meeting with Hamas officials again.
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Dec 20, 2023 17:53
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PostNouveau posted:Aside from the morality of it, it's interesting how effective this seemed to be. Half the ship traffic had to take the long way, and suddenly Israel is talking ceasefire for hostages and meeting with Hamas officials again. Especially because last week Israel was telling everyone they were going to be fighting hard through January and then continuing operations for months after. While the US was waffling back and forth on whether that was acceptable. Not that that still won't happen, but Israel is talking about ceasefire offers again. I don't have to say "I condemn the Houthis" to recognize that's a good outcome or that the pressure they are applying on the west (to stop the genocide in gaza) is effective. That's unequivocally a good thing for my desired outcome. National Parks fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Dec 20, 2023 |
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Dec 20, 2023 18:00
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hadji murad posted:The Irish do. They also have a northern reminder that it's still on going
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Dec 20, 2023 18:01
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ummel posted:This is gross and you shouldn't be cheering for the targeting and kidnapping of innocents. Shooting missiles or using drones against commercial shipping isn't "property damage." What is wrong with you. If their luck ever runs out and they kill someone, that's certainly a position one could take. They've killed noone and are doing more to halt the ongoing genocide than any Western power. I never called it property damage. I said it's provoking the same denouncement that "property damage" does whenever there's effective activism: A familiar scold that although something was effective, it was improper and that somehow taints the results. Maybe that's confusing, I'm bad at analogies. Irony Be My Shield posted:open and explicit antisemitism Is that not an expected consequence of Israel's appropriation of Judaism?
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Dec 20, 2023 18:03
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PostNouveau posted:Aside from the morality of it, it's interesting how effective this seemed to be. Half the ship traffic had to take the long way, and suddenly Israel is talking ceasefire for hostages and meeting with Hamas officials again. Other than the timing is there any evidence to suggest the two are related? Not that I don't see Egypt pushing harder for new talks as a result, given the extent of the financial toll the shipping disruption is already causing there.
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Dec 20, 2023 18:03
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PostNouveau posted:Aside from the morality of it, it's interesting how effective this seemed to be. Half the ship traffic had to take the long way, and suddenly Israel is talking ceasefire for hostages and meeting with Hamas officials again. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/19/israel-signals-readiness-for-new-temporary-truce-in-gaza-as-pressure-mounts
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Dec 20, 2023 18:07
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It's very odd that when it's the Irish expressing solidarity it's because of their admirable leadership and noble culture, but when the Houthis do they're rabid Islamists opportunistically leveraging a genocide to excuse their misdeeds. Anyway, regardless of what vile evil lurks in the black heart of the dreaded Houthi miscreant, PostNoveau is right: PostNouveau posted:Aside from the morality of it, it's interesting how effective this seemed to be. Half the ship traffic had to take the long way, and suddenly Israel is talking ceasefire for hostages and meeting with Hamas officials again. The Houthis are the only people on the planet whose actions seem to be meaningfully threatening the zionists' genocidal campaign.
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Dec 20, 2023 18:11
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:It's very odd that when it's the Irish expressing solidarity it's because of their admirable leadership and noble culture, but when the Houthis do they're rabid Islamists opportunistically leveraging a genocide to excuse their misdeeds. Their slogan literally includes the phrase "a curse on the Jews." Get back to me with this line of thought when the Irish call for a genocide against the English in their motto.
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Dec 20, 2023 18:14
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moths posted:Is that not an expected consequence of Israel's appropriation of Judaism? There's no appropriation of Judaism. They are Jewish, how could they appropriate their own culture & religion? The state is Jewish-supremacist and justifies fascism on Jewish indigeneity claims and the history and present-day reality of violence against Jews around the world. This is very bad, and exacerbates global antisemitism, but it's not appropriation. The post you're responding to is saying "lionizing Ansar Allah as heroes" should be challenged because of their "open and explicit antisemitism." The fact that their antisemitism is the predictable result of prior history does not pertain to this claim - a lot of bigotry is the predictable result of earlier historical events and ideologies, that doesn't make it morally excusable. Pentecoastal Elites posted:It's very odd that when it's the Irish expressing solidarity it's because of their admirable leadership and noble culture, but when the Houthis do they're rabid Islamists opportunistically leveraging a genocide to excuse their misdeeds. I'm the only guy who said this about the Irish and I never said this about the Houthis. I said I'm sure some of the Houthis are operating in total cynicism - they're an actual political movement after all - but the movement's commitment to Palestine is sincere and deeply rooted, even before the genocide in Yemen. It's incorrect to draw equivalence between a culture like the Irish and a political movement like the Houthis. The IRA was full of cynical opportunists, so is Sinn Fein. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Dec 20, 2023 |
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Dec 20, 2023 18:15
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Is a curse equivalent to genocide?
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Dec 20, 2023 18:16
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Kagrenak posted:Other than the timing is there any evidence to suggest the two are related? Not that I don't see Egypt pushing harder for new talks as a result, given the extent of the financial toll the shipping disruption is already causing there. It could be coincidental, but it seemed so intractable so recently that it's hard to find any other cause. Irony Be My Shield posted:I don't know if that's a reasonable characterisation of it. Israel was very happy with the last ceasefire and I'm sure would like another one in which Hamas releases hostages in exchange for no relevant concessions (and Israel goes back to bombing them afterwards). If talks for a temporary ceasefire have resumed I would actually argue it's Hamas who have caved in - previously they were saying that no hostages would be released unless Israel ended its campaign permanently. Well who caved over what is more about the final shape of the ceasefire than the starting positions.
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Dec 20, 2023 18:18
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Civilized Fishbot posted:There's no appropriation of Judaism. They are Jewish, how could they appropriate their own culture & religion? Yeah I'm not sure what the right word should have been. I don't mean appropriation in the sense of adopting the trappings of a culture, I mean proclaiming yourself the face of a thing and committing atrocities in its name. I suppose if media were fair, and would describe it as the "self-proclaimed Jewish state of Israel." That.
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Dec 20, 2023 18:27
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taqueso posted:Is a curse equivalent to genocide? Yes, a militant group or state actor saying "A curse on x people" is a phrase which belies genocidal intent. It would be concerning even as rhetoric from an official, never mind it being an official slogan, symbolically spelled out in red ink. PostNouveau posted:It could be coincidental, but it seemed so intractable so recently that it's hard to find any other cause. Yeah I guess I could see that. I guess we'll see if this round results in anything meaningful. If they get a decent amount of concessions out of it, it does make it worthwhile even given the shaky ethical ground imo.
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Dec 20, 2023 18:30
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Is a genocide that some group theoretically wants to commit, based on your interpretation of their slogan, equivalent to an actual genocide which is currently going on and has been going on for decades?
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Dec 20, 2023 18:33
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moths posted:I don't mean appropriation in the sense of adopting the trappings of a culture, I mean proclaiming yourself the face of a thing and committing atrocities in its name. And how do you think this relates to the claim that the Houthis should not be lionized because of their anti-Jewish bigotry? You were responding to this post: Irony Be My Shield posted:In addition I'd point out that this conversation began because several posters have been lionizing Ansar Allah as heroes. Given the indiscriminate nature of their attacks and their open and explicit antisemitism I think that narrative should not expect to go unchallenged. I don't know how to read what you said as a response to that post except "they get a pass for being antisemitic, because Israeli propaganda makes it easy to get confused in that way." If that's what you're saying, I disagree - even if it's an "honest" confusion, religious bigotry and ethnic bigotry should always be rebuked. Halloween Jack posted:Is a genocide that some group theoretically wants to commit, based on your interpretation of their slogan, equivalent to an actual genocide which is currently going on and has been going on for decades? Obviously not, but I don't think the Houthis have to be as bad as the State of Israel for their commitment to hateful bigotry to be really bad. Do you agree/disagree with "curse the Jews" or is it more nuanced than that? Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Dec 20, 2023 |
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Dec 20, 2023 18:35
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Civilized Fishbot posted:It's incorrect to draw equivalence between a culture like the Irish and a political movement like the Houthis. The IRA was full of cynical opportunists, so is Sinn Fein. Where do cultural sympathies arise from? Impossible to know, probably. Kagrenak posted:Their slogan literally includes the phrase "a curse on the Jews." Get back to me with this line of thought when the Irish call for a genocide against the English in their motto. huh! hey, is this genocide of Jews by Houthis occurring anywhere but your imagination? I ask because there is an actual, honest-to-god, for-real genocide of Palestinians by israel happening right now in the real world.
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Dec 20, 2023 18:37
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If anyone pro Israel is having trouble conceptualizing a container ship as a valid target: try imagining they’re hospitals
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Dec 20, 2023 18:39
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Halloween Jack posted:Is a genocide that some group theoretically wants to commit, based on your interpretation of their slogan, equivalent to an actual genocide which is currently going on and has been going on for decades? Don't put words in my mouth. I spend time in real life organizing attempts to influence our congressional delegation to actually take action against the ongoing genocide. In this thread I have condemned Israel's actions over and over and described them as genocide and horrifying crimes against humanity, among others. Pentecoastal Elites posted:huh! hey, is this genocide of Jews by Houthis occurring anywhere but your imagination? I ask because there is an actual, honest-to-god, for-real genocide of Palestinians by israel happening right now in the real world. I agree, there is no ongoing genocide of Jews by the houthi but that wasn't what was being discussed.
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Dec 20, 2023 18:45
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:huh! hey, is this genocide of Jews by Houthis occurring anywhere but your imagination? I ask because there is an actual, honest-to-god, for-real genocide of Palestinians by israel happening right now in the real world.
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Dec 20, 2023 18:46
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Best Friends posted:If anyone pro Israel is having trouble conceptualizing a container ship as a valid target: try imagining they’re hospitals Nobody here is pro-Israel. Everyone here agrees that Israel is committing a horrifying genocide right now. Pentecoastal Elites posted:Where do cultural sympathies arise from? Impossible to know, probably. From an ideological project to develop them, which is why the country which places the biggest emphasis on remembering the Holocaust as something that happened to them is also committing a genocide right now. Because there was a project to remember the Holocaust as an event marking the vulnerability of Jews specifically and the importance of establishing Jewish strength. In Ireland the memory of suffering has become a drive toward solidarity with the suffering of others, but as we can see in the case of Israel, it doesn't automatically happen, the cultural memory has to be constructed that way intentionally, in political discourse and in all the other ways that occupation is remembered. It's not as simple as "in suffering you find sensitivity to the suffering of others" - especially when the "you" is actually a whole country/culture. The people of Yemen were sensitive to the suffering of Palestine long before the genocide in Yemen. And this was and is expressed in the form of opposition to American-Israeli empire (good) and hatred toward an ethnic minority in Yemen (bad). In all three countries, we could see changes in how the genocides are remembered that dramatically affect who does and doesn't get sympathy. I've seen some Irish right-wing rhetoric along the lines of "we were occupied by the English and today we're being occupied by the Algerians, we need to keep Ireland for the Irish." That right-wing particularist/ethnocentrism form of remembering the occupation runs more parallel to how the Holocaust is remembered in Israel. It could become the dominant form of remembering the occupation one day if the right wing makes that effort and the left wing can't stop it. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Dec 20, 2023 |
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Dec 20, 2023 18:47
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illegal blockades for me but not for thee seriously credit to the houthis for finding a proportional and reasonable response, something the idf, a big state army, has never been able (or rather willing) to do Mia Wasikowska fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Dec 20, 2023 |
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Dec 20, 2023 18:52
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Nobody here is pro-Israel. Not openly no. That takes a modicum of spine and honesty. But there is definitely a recurring cast of characters championing every new Israeli propaganda line, no matter how absurd, ranging from if hospitals are valid targets, to if hospitals just sometimes explode on their own, to beheaded babies, to demanding DO YOU CONDEMN HAMAS to every anti Israel position. (I am not including you in this category).
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Dec 20, 2023 18:52
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Best Friends posted:Not openly no. That takes a modicum of spine and honesty. But there is definitely a recurring cast of characters championing every new Israeli propaganda line, no matter how absurd, ranging from if hospitals are valid targets, to if hospitals just sometimes explode on their own, to beheaded babies, to demanding DO YOU CONDEMN HAMAS to every anti Israel position. (I am not including you in this category). No there really isn't, what is happening is anyone tries to get the slightest idea of what's happening or looks into anything beyond propaganda released by any side people accuse them of supporting Israel.
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Dec 20, 2023 19:07
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Kagrenak posted:Don't put words in my mouth. I spend time in real life organizing attempts to influence our congressional delegation to actually take action against the ongoing genocide. In this thread I have condemned Israel's actions over and over and described them as genocide and horrifying crimes against humanity, among others.
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Dec 20, 2023 19:13
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I don't know how to read what you said as a response to that post except "they get a pass for being antisemitic, because Israeli propaganda makes it easy to get confused in that way." If that's what you're saying, I disagree - even if it's an "honest" confusion, religious bigotry and ethnic bigotry should always be rebuked. I'm saying that Israel's wrapping of themselves as Judaism and being a lovely nation has facilitated more "antisemitism" than anything else in the region. I doubt the Houthis give two shits about Jews outside of Israel. And if they do, it's certainly an opinion informed by their experiences with Israel. Israel has spent its entire existence doing crimes and proclaiming Jewishness - it's hardly shocking that the region doesn't make the distinction. Which is confusion that Israel actively cultivates, to the detriment of Jews globally. So it's not like they get "a pass for being antisemitic," they justifiably oppose Israel but fell for Israel's self branding.
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Dec 20, 2023 19:24
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It seems more likely to me that Iran will end up catching poo poo for the Houthis because Iran supplies the anti-ship missiles that are being used. The Houthis will likely get attacked by the US task force in the region but ultimately I wouldn't be surprised to see additional sanctions on Iran for enabling the closure of the Suez Canal instead of any pressure on Israel to do a cease fire.
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Dec 20, 2023 19:45
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moths posted:I doubt the Houthis give two shits about Jews outside of Israel. And if they do, it's certainly an opinion informed by their experiences with Israel. You'd think "Death to America, Death to Israel, Curse the Jews" would make it pretty obvious that their vendetta against Jews is not limited to the ones in Israel, but I guess not. So here is a report by a UN-appointed panel on life in Yemen inside and outside Houthi administration, including "acts that violate international humanitarian law and international human rights law" committed by each state or quasi-state actor. https://documents-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N21/415/62/PDF/N2141562.pdf?OpenElement quote:The Panel documented the systematic persecution of Jews in Houthi-controlled It includes an excerpt from a textbook in a Houthi-run school: quote:America is the major enemy for Muslims wherever they are. America is trying to fight But Jews generally come up very little in the report - just these two references and the omnipresence of the "death to America, death to Israel, curse the Jews" slogan. Because the Houthis completed that ethnic cleansing project. The goal of the report is to characterize what it's like to live under Houthi rule for the people who haven't been forced into exile: quote:In contrast, in areas controlled by the Houthis, the security situation remained We're talking about a right-wing military that violently oppresses dissent, persecutes religious minorities, and tries to keep women out of professional and political life. If they're slowing down or halting the Israeli genocide of Palestine, that's obviously a good thing, but there is no reason to be delusional about what the Houthi movement actually is. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Dec 20, 2023 |
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Dec 20, 2023 19:53
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ummel posted:This is gross and you shouldn't be cheering for the targeting and kidnapping of innocents. Shooting missiles or using drones against commercial shipping isn't "property damage." What is wrong with you. drat wait until you hear about what capitalism does to people in the global south every single day
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Dec 20, 2023 20:11
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ELTON JOHN posted:drat wait until you hear about what capitalism does to people in the global south every single day at least implying that people are okay with Israel's genocide made an effort to seem related "You condemn/question an actor in the global south's actions, thus you must be okay with 500 years and counting of colonialism" is a pretty good one lmao Kagrenak fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Dec 20, 2023 |
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Dec 20, 2023 20:15
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Kagrenak posted:at least implying that people are okay with Israel's genocide made an effort to seem related piracy against container ships is an extremely efficient way to redistribute resources from the global north to the global south, and it's especially cool if it can be accomplished without worker blood being spilled. the fact that it's being done now to protest a genocide is just an added bonus
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Dec 20, 2023 20:21
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Most of these ships have been empty and they're also lobbing ballistic missiles at Israeli cities which is something that seems to have been forgotten. e: Somali piracy in the 90's is the most redistributive its ever been, and that wasn't because they were taking the stuff off the boats it was because they were getting the ransom money. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Dec 20, 2023 |
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Dec 20, 2023 20:27
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Alchenar posted:Most of these ships have been empty and they're also lobbing ballistic missiles at Israeli cities which is something that seems to have been forgotten. through at least 2011, they were bringing in tens of millions of dollars in ransom every year but there has been a decline since them for various reasons. the 90s were mostly about getting ransom from foreign fishing ships that were operating illegally and diminishing local fish populations (which many somalians make their livlihood on.) container ships and gas tankers was more something they started doing in the early 2000s
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Dec 20, 2023 20:38
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Civilized Fishbot posted:"Jews secretly run America" isn't Israeli branding, it's just conspiratorial antisemitism. I'm really not sure what to tell you. If you've only ever seen Israel get everything it wants from the US - how would you characterize that relationship? They're using "Jews" and "Israelis" interchangeably, or it's getting translated that way. Which is wrong and unfortunate, but common. And a desired outcome of Israeli messaging. E: it's Israeli branding that ISRAEL=JEWS. I've tried putting that a few different ways but it seems to keep sliding off. The antisemitism you've cited is a direct result of Israel being horrible while appointing themselves as the spokes-nation of all Jews everywhere. moths fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Dec 20, 2023 |
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Dec 20, 2023 21:07
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moths posted:I'm really not sure what to tell you. It certainly isn't Israeli branding that they get everything they want from the US. The Israeli state has spent the last two months - really the last two decades - complaining that they DON'T get enough support from the US. I've shown you evidence that the Houthis spread antisemitic theories about American Jews and violently suppress Yemeni Jews. Do you still "doubt the Houthis give two shits about Jews outside of Israel"? Even if you blame 100% of their antisemitism on the Israeli state - as if otherwise Jews would be the one religious minority they tolerated - it means they're so stupid that Israeli propaganda motivated them to commit ethnic cleansing. moths posted:E: it's Israeli branding that ISRAEL=JEWS. I've tried putting that a few different ways but it seems to keep sliding off. We all know this. It's very obvious. I responded to it in my first reply to you. Civilized Fishbot posted:The post you're responding to is saying "lionizing Ansar Allah as heroes" should be challenged because of their "open and explicit antisemitism." The fact that their antisemitism is the predictable result of prior history does not pertain to this claim - a lot of bigotry is the predictable result of earlier historical events and ideologies, that doesn't make it morally excusable. You have yet to reply to this explanation. Another problem is that you pretend they only hate Israeli Jews, which is obvious bullshit - they drove all the Yemeni Jews out of Yemen and they spread Nazi lies about American Jews. When they say they hate Jews, you refuse to believe them, and I don't know why. And you pretend they would not hate Jews if not for Israel, which is obvious bullshit - they hate all religious minorities. Again, you brought up this point in response to someone saying they shouldn't be lionized. Obviously they shouldn't be lionized, no matter why they're violent antisemites who committed ethnic cleansing, because they are violent antisemites who committed ethnic cleansing. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Dec 20, 2023 |
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Dec 20, 2023 21:10
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moths posted:I'm really not sure what to tell you. It keeps sliding off because it doesn't matter whether Israel and Jewishness are equated - it doesn't excuse their antisemitism. If it were the state of France commuting the genocide we wouldn't excuse a group that had "A curse upon the French," as its slogan and drove the last few families of French people from their territory. Even though everyone can agree that the french people and the state of France are inherently linked culturally, presently and historically. e: ⬇️ ousting a colonial power is different than ethnically cleansing people, the jews that were in Yemen weren't colonizers, hth. the french were a bad choice for this analogy though I'll give you that. Kagrenak fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Dec 20, 2023 |
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Dec 20, 2023 21:19
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That's a great point. It's time to hold Haiti accountable.
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Dec 20, 2023 21:22
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It's a bad analogy because the French presence in Haiti was as colonizers, and the Jewish presence in Yemen was as indigenous people until the Houthis completed their ethnic cleansing project. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Dec 20, 2023 |
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Dec 20, 2023 21:26
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By "appropriation" they mean something like this: There have been multiple instances of them erecting large menorahs in the ruins of Gaza. Taking the symbols of Judaism and connecting them to their brutal actions.
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Dec 20, 2023 21:52
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I think it's bad, OP, but I can also recognize that Houthi anti-Semitism exists in a different context than (neo-)Nazi anti-Semitism. I will never say that anti-Semitism is correct, but I also think that it's valuable to figure out where it comes from in order to eliminate it, instead of treating it like some sort of horrible, unknowable spectre, which is always borne of purely irrational hatred. For example, James Baldwin wrote this about Black anti-Semitism: https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nyt...tR5j9sz8BcJS3KM I think if you want to eliminate anti-Semitism in the Arab world specifically, you have to give equal civil and political rights to everyone in occupied Palestine. Until that happens, there will be a bunch of people who identify Jewish people in general with Israel specifically, and hate them as a result. I'm not going to say it's right or justifiable, but anyone who cannot at least understand how that happens is being purposefully obtuse.
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Dec 20, 2023 21:54
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