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Dante80 posted:These are mainly intended for in situ industrial heat and power storage/generation, industrial heat alone makes up two-thirds of industrial energy demand and almost one-fifth of global energy consumption. What does the grid or "round trips" have to do with this? for industrial heat applications, why would you bother purchasing, insulating, and then heating a gigantic thermal ballast rather than just directly heating precisely the parts of your process that need the heat the specific context they're talking about here is energy storage, downstream of a generation source. if we are going to talk about something like using sodium solar collector systems directly for industrial applications, that would be something else, but that's not what they're talking about here. besides, sodium solar collectors, unless I am very sorely misremembering it, don't really work well against the modern background of other cheaper renewables that are way easier to install. Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 05:47 on Dec 19, 2023 |
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Dec 19, 2023 05:44
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I have got the impression heat storage mostly only works as part of a district heating system. No need for a energy conversion and the required heat is relatively low.
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Dec 19, 2023 06:04
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Potato Salad posted:for industrial heat applications, why would you bother purchasing, insulating, and then heating a gigantic thermal ballast rather than just directly heating precisely the parts of your process that need the heat
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Dec 19, 2023 08:03
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DTurtle posted:Because generally stuff you need to heat up also later needs to be cooled down. Capturing that heat and using it to heat up the next batch is something that is done sometimes. It is not my understanding that heat will flow from a source into a lower temperature sink then spontaneously back into the high temperature source. The "capturing" part here is going to need an explanation; even a perfect crossflow heat exchanger cannot push energy back up the entropic hill to the source. That requires some kind of heat pump. Edit: I do not make my criticism of heat storage arbitrage systems idly; this concept is frequently analyzed and it just doesn't work outside very simple applications like "put large stonework like a fireplace, walls, or flooring in your home" or very rudimentary, short cycle buffers for things like district heating (which is most often simply and flexibly served by a reservoir that's also part of your pressurizer or separator) -- things that aren't really arbitrage in the first place. It would be a very niche industrial application indeed where it makes sense to capture intermediate temperature waste heat for use in lower temperature processes with rocks where heat reuse is not already a design feature incorporated by whoever built the series of chemical reactors in question, serviced by simple heat exchangers and water. Go re-read the source. They're talking about arbitrage, definitionally. Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 09:41 on Dec 19, 2023 |
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Dec 19, 2023 09:20
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wolrah posted:Moving parts are fine, but moving solids is probably a dead end. Dams and pumped storage are probably the most well understood and proven energy storage technology out there and definitely involve moving parts, but there are few of them compared to the amount of storage. Clearly we need to reduce the absolute amount of moving parts. How about we built a city on a massive flywheel?
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Dec 19, 2023 14:44
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Use the earth as a flywheel. Spin it faster to store energy, slow it down to drain it.
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Dec 19, 2023 16:52
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Potato Salad posted:It is not my understanding that heat will flow from a source into a lower temperature sink then spontaneously back into the high temperature source. The "capturing" part here is going to need an explanation; even a perfect crossflow heat exchanger cannot push energy back up the entropic hill to the source. That requires some kind of heat pump. The general approach is: Hot stuff heats up cold water (or air, or salt, or some other thing capable of absorbing a lot of heat) to hot water, becoming cold stuff in the process. Hot water then heats up the next batch of cold stuff up to becoming hot stuff, becoming cold water in the process. Additional heat is only needed to compensate for thermal losses in the process and not for the entirety of the cold stuff becoming hot stuff temperature difference. A very simple example is waste heat from combustion being used to heat up the air at the intake, leading to a more efficient combustion process. A ton of industrial processes require heating up stuff and then cooling that stuff down again. The vast majority of the time that heat is simply blown into the atmosphere or used to warm up giant pools of water exposed to air.
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Dec 19, 2023 17:32
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Isn't that just a heat exchanger with extra steps.
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Dec 19, 2023 18:24
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Xakura posted:Use the earth as a flywheel. Spin it faster to store energy, slow it down to drain it. Tidal power sort of does that.
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Dec 19, 2023 18:35
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If the earth could be used directly as a giant flywheel, imagine all the op-eds that we would see about the benefits of increasingly longer days/nights.
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Dec 19, 2023 22:38
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DTurtle posted:I am speaking very generically and not at all about the specific pie-in-the-sky trillion dollar whatever stuff proposed by the heating up stones thing. Heat recycling, basically. We use it our process where you can get the incoming cold water to about 80 degs on the secondary heat exchanger before you use the primary to heat it up to 120 degs. the 115 deg resulting solution is then sent to the hot side of the secondary heat exchanger and gets down to 50 degs or so before the next step. Trying to recycle heat is a lot more tricky then it first appears with maintenance and operating costs often being more expensive than just buying more energy/being less efficient. In the same way if power is much cheaper, you wouldn't go to such great expense and consume so much materials on insulation of housing which adds a heap of capital and maintenance costs.
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Dec 20, 2023 02:54
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https://amp-cnn-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/12/19/business/us-production-oil-reserves-crude/index.htmlquote:As the world grapples with the existential crisis of climate change, environmental activists want President Joe Biden to phase out the oil industry, and Republicans argue he’s already doing that. Meanwhile, the surprising reality is the United States is pumping oil at a blistering pace and is on track to produce more oil than any country has in history.
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Dec 20, 2023 07:05
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DTurtle posted:The general approach is: Hot stuff heats up cold water (or air, or salt, or some other thing capable of absorbing a lot of heat) to hot water, becoming cold stuff in the process. Hot water then heats up the next batch of cold stuff up to becoming hot stuff, becoming cold water in the process. I can't tell if you either didn't see the part where I refer to existing heat reuse in things like chemical reactor design or if you're so far to the left of the Dunning-Kreuger chart that you don't even realize that's what I'm talking about
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Dec 20, 2023 14:53
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Potato Salad posted:I can't tell if you either didn't see the part where I refer to existing heat reuse in things like chemical reactor design or if you're so far to the left of the Dunning-Kreuger chart that you don't even realize that's what I'm talking about The very simple general approach I mentioned is not limited to chemical reactors or whatever. A simple use case is heat treatment of steel products: You heat something up to 700 degrees Celsius, keep it there for an hour or ten, then cool it down to 50 degrees Celsius by blowing huge amounts of air through the furnace and out into the atmosphere. Then you take out the finished batch, put in the new one and heat it up from room temperature to 700 degrees again. Storing as much of the heat as possible while cooling down from 700 degrees is generally not done as it is too technically complex and expensive. Having some kind of simple system to do that and store that heat for an hour or two would be very useful.
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Dec 20, 2023 15:47
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 Ionicpsycho posted:Isn't that just a heat exchanger with extra steps. Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Dec 20, 2023 |
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Dec 20, 2023 16:15
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Extra steps adds efficiency
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Dec 20, 2023 16:22
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you know what, go for it my man. I'm sure their company has a contact page. see how well you can do before they take whatever subsidies they're baiting for and runHis Divine Shadow posted:Extra steps adds efficiency ackshually you will find that "round trip" has nothing to do with it, furthermore,
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Dec 20, 2023 16:24
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the WeWork scam, except instead of making a legacy real estate company look like a tech company you're making existing industrial design elements look like hot new green energy arbitrage this is the third time I am saying it: go back to what they're proposing and note that they are specifically talking about renewable energy arbitrage. Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Dec 20, 2023 |
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Dec 20, 2023 16:32
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You expressed incredulity of the whole idea of storing and using waste heat from industrial processes. I merely pointed out that that is already done to a certain extent and could be done even more if a viable solution would exist. I never expressed any support for their specific approach and don’t care to do so. I will however note that increased efficiency of energy in industrial processes is a large, but underdeveloped part of going towards carbon neutrality. That you made a whole thing out of that is your problem.
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Dec 20, 2023 16:41
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yes, talking about extant heat exchanger or reservoir technologies is actually my incredulity edit: you're bringing up specifically industrial processes again  they're talking about arbitrage. you don't even need to open the article, they mention specifically storing energy from windmills and solar panels right there in the quoted text. they are counting on investors and grant administrators not being able to pick this apart in detail. "oh man look at this giant sector we can serve, also we are riding on the coattails of enormous renewables growth, please nobody point out the gap between the two that we cannot actually fill" gently caress me I'm just going to block and move on, I can't handle this today Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Dec 20, 2023 |
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Dec 20, 2023 16:56
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talk about a heated exchange
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Dec 20, 2023 16:57
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It led to a pretty spirited cross-flow of discussion.
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Dec 20, 2023 19:11
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The Energy Generation Megathread: Heated Exchanges ?
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Dec 20, 2023 20:16
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Tuna-Fish posted:The Energy Generation Megathread: Heated Exchanges That's a good title, I say we go full steam ahead with it.
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Dec 20, 2023 22:03
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Tuna-Fish posted:The Energy Generation Megathread: Heated Exchanges 
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Dec 20, 2023 22:10
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Tuna-Fish posted:The Energy Generation Megathread: Heated Exchanges
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Dec 20, 2023 22:11
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golden bubble posted:https://amp-cnn-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/12/19/business/us-production-oil-reserves-crude/index.html We might (might) have some hope in this area thanks to fusion research. Still a long way off but possibly much less long than it seemed.
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Dec 21, 2023 15:47
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:We might (might) have some hope in this area thanks to fusion research. Still a long way off but possibly much less long than it seemed. NIF’s net-positive remains incredibly dishonest turd-polishing (they play all kinds of games with the definition.) NIF is a nuclear weapons research fig-leaf. It is a cool machine and a great jobs program for physics PhDs, but worse than useless for energy production research. There’s interesting things happening in fusion energy but NIF isn’t it.
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Dec 21, 2023 16:14
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Hey it's not just a nuclear weapons fig leaf, it's also a military laser fig leaf
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Dec 21, 2023 16:32
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Tuna-Fish posted:The Energy Generation Megathread: Heated Exchanges
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Dec 21, 2023 16:38
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Ionicpsycho posted:If the earth could be used directly as a giant flywheel, imagine all the op-eds that we would see about the benefits of increasingly longer days/nights. Doesn't wind power pretty much do that? It's just a really inefficient process.
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Dec 22, 2023 23:05
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We would have wind with or without rotation also consider that conservation of angular momentum is absolute
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Dec 22, 2023 23:14
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in a well actually posted:NIF’s net-positive remains incredibly dishonest turd-polishing (they play all kinds of games with the definition.) I'm not exactly sure what the success metric the article is claiming but it sounds like maybe the yield has been increasing with each experiment? It may be a very inefficient means of doing the research as that facility as I understand it is decades old now and a new clean sheet design might be better for fusion research but experimental data is still data no?
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Dec 23, 2023 04:06
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Raenir Salazar posted:I'm not exactly sure what the success metric the article is claiming but it sounds like maybe the yield has been increasing with each experiment? It may be a very inefficient means of doing the research as that facility as I understand it is decades old now and a new clean sheet design might be better for fusion research but experimental data is still data no? No, data from nanosecond high intensity bursts of neutrons are not useful for understanding the fusion you are trying to do in a power reactor; it is data that is useful if you’re trying to validate the neutron output for the fusion stage of your weapons simulation code without violating the CTBT. JET in the UK did an order of magnitude more energy from fusion on timescales much more useful for power generation. (Both NIF and JET rely on tritium, the only source of which is fission reactors.)
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Dec 23, 2023 05:04
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in a well actually posted:No, data from nanosecond high intensity bursts of neutrons are not useful for understanding the fusion you are trying to do in a power reactor; it is data that is useful if you’re trying to validate the neutron output for the fusion stage of your weapons simulation code without violating the CTBT. Isn't JET a tokamak though? That's apples to oranges.
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Dec 23, 2023 05:26
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Raenir Salazar posted:Isn't JET a tokamak though? That's apples to oranges. It’s a wild apple to C-4. They both have calories. Neither is going to feed people in their current state. One is not a viable staple crop yet, but might be the precursor to one. The other is designed to release a lot of energy, very quickly.
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Dec 23, 2023 05:47
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in a well actually posted:It’s a wild apple to C-4. They both have calories. Neither is going to feed people in their current state. One is not a viable staple crop yet, but might be the precursor to one. The other is designed to release a lot of energy, very quickly. I feel like the comparison is more wild apple to wild orange that's gone through 2-3 cycles of cultivation. Neither are currently remotely close to providing commercial energy, one might indeed be closer, but they're both very far off. The main thing about the NIF is that as I already said, they could probably do it a lot better today from a clean design oriented towards actually researching nuclear fusion if they want to, I'm not disputing the claim its meant for weapons research, I am disputing that its completely useless, because I'm sure the data is useful to the other IC fusion experiments (proposed or otherwise). This report seems to be cited as the reason why the HiPer project in the EU was discontinued, with the related improvements/experiments proposed to be adapted to the NIF instead, which implies to me that the NIF, by virtue of being the largest such facility currently in existence is doing some degree of useful work). Glancing at wikipedia there does seem to be other Inertial confinment experiments around the world, France and Japan in particular so I think its reasonable to think the data, even if inefficient is useful for these other experiments.
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Dec 23, 2023 16:44
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Potato Salad posted:We would have wind with or without rotation From what I gather, some (but by far not all) of the wind comes from the earths rotation. Wouldn't the generation of that energy take it from the earths rotation, thereby technicallly slowing it a minuscle amount? Now you also take some of the wind away and turn it into electricity. This means that some amount of rotation speed was indirectly converted to electric energy. Just what a flywheel does. Unless I am completely misunderstanding the concept of wind of course. Like is it even real? Has anyone ever seen wind? Like hypothetically, if we had enough wind wheels to suck up all the wind in current existence. New wind would apear from the water heat gradient. But the rotation and coreolis effect speeds this wind up so more can be turned into electrical energy. This increase in energy can only be possible if the rotaional energy was slightly drained in turn. cant cook creole bream fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Dec 24, 2023 |
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Dec 24, 2023 00:23
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cant cook creole bream posted:Has anyone ever seen wind? Every time you fart.
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Dec 24, 2023 00:34
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cant cook creole bream posted:From what I gather, some (but by far not all) of the wind comes from the earths rotation. Wouldn't the generation of that energy take it from the earths rotation, thereby technicallly slowing it a minuscle amount? No, angular momentum is conserved. You're not slowing down the earth's rotation with wind power, not even by even a miniscule amount Wind is really just another version of solar energy; the sun adds heat to the air, hot air moves toward colder air. That's wind. Solar energy gets absorbed by the air, wind turbines convert some of that energy into electricity.
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Dec 24, 2023 00:55
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