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KillHour posted:Could you give an example of a way that they can overturn the ruling without hearing the case? Trump was never tried and found guilty of engaging in insurrection.
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Dec 21, 2023 16:46
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SaTaMaS posted:Trump was never tried and found guilty of engaging in insurrection. That isn’t an explicit requirement for disqualification, and making it one would have potential ramifications down the line and potentially limit the judiciary ability to make findings of fact, which SCOTUS would probably like to avoid.
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Dec 21, 2023 16:52
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Fork of Unknown Origins posted:That isn’t an explicit requirement for disqualification, and making it one would have potential ramifications down the line and potentially limit the judiciary ability to make findings of fact, which SCOTUS would probably like to avoid. And when it was used after the ACW it didn’t rely on convictions either, to my understanding.
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Dec 21, 2023 16:54
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Historical precedent is not the modern Supreme Court's thing.
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Dec 21, 2023 16:54
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SaTaMaS posted:Trump was never tried and found guilty of engaging in insurrection. Neither were any of the confederates historically disqualified under the section.
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Dec 21, 2023 17:12
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Fork of Unknown Origins posted:That isn’t an explicit requirement for disqualification, and making it one would have potential ramifications down the line and potentially limit the judiciary ability to make findings of fact, which SCOTUS would probably like to avoid. How does the fact that Trump is on trial for insurrection weigh into all this? If the SC says he shouldn't be on the ballot, doesn't that mean they are considering him guilty of the crime he's being tried for?
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Dec 21, 2023 17:17
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Could be different levels of fact finding. Beyond a reasonable doubt for a criminal conviction, vs a preponderance of evidence for the removal from ballet.
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Dec 21, 2023 17:19
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Rakeris posted:Could be different levels of fact finding. Beyond a reasonable doubt for a criminal conviction, vs a preponderance of evidence for the removal from ballet. I’m not making fun of the typo. Everyone does that and it’s normal and fine. But imagining Trump getting booted off stage from a production of Swan Lake is pretty loving funny.
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Dec 21, 2023 17:31
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Xiahou Dun posted:I’m not making fun of the typo. Everyone does that and it’s normal and fine.  Now I can't get that image out of my head. But going back to what OP said about levels of fact, I can see that being a decent divider if the court goes that way.
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Dec 21, 2023 17:43
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SaTaMaS posted:Trump was never tried and found guilty of engaging in insurrection. The wording is "engaged in" not "charged or convicted with". That's why this is all so stupid. We all know that he loving did it, we watched it live but because the entire Republican Party and electorate have decided to just straight up lie through their teeth we're having to go through this bullshit. "No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability." Not a word in there about conviction on any charge much less a specific one.
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Dec 21, 2023 17:47
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The people who made Disco Elysium would probably think the idea of making a game like that about Trump is completely missing the point of a game like that. You don’t make it about Trump or the trial. You gotta abstract, and find the story people would connect with. You make the game about a working class woman in Chicago with a demented landlord, a landlord who has only gotten more insane as she works for a bipolar pop star and then a failed reactionary politician. You never meet the landlord in the game, but every weird complication in your life is made doubly difficult by the constant lurking of slimy journalists, political operatives, schizo internet types and the like showing up in your day to day because of things that don’t affect your life politically, but do gently caress up your attempt to just live in a society. The game is about the ripples of big things making small things happen, and trying to piece together what the big things could’ve even been, if you even care to do so. Making a Disco Elysium game about this kind of trial specifically is like making a Call of Duty game that claims to represent the invasion of Grenada. Wrong tool for the job.
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Dec 21, 2023 17:52
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Subjunctive posted:And when it was used after the ACW it didn’t rely on convictions either, to my understanding. The problem is that for the most part, it wasn't used after the ACW. There's very few documented cases of the Insurrection Clause being successfully enforced. Its usage was inconsistent, deeply affected by political concerns, and heavily impacted by the hostility of state governments and a number of frankly bonkers judicial rulings. Most known attempts simply got tied up in the courts long enough to delay a ruling until terms ran out or amnesties got issued, rendering the cases moot.
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Dec 21, 2023 18:19
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Just got an alert on the Reuters newswire that Rudy filed for bankruptcy. Don't see any articles up on it yet.
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Dec 21, 2023 18:37
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Just got an alert on the Reuters newswire that Rudy filed for bankruptcy. That’s not going to protect him.
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Dec 21, 2023 18:41
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Found an article/public confirmation: https://twitter.com/business/status/1737888852667248683
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Dec 21, 2023 18:44
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Cimber posted:
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Dec 21, 2023 19:56
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Non-paywalled link for bankruptcy story: https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/21/politics/rudy-giuliani-declares-bankruptcy/index.html The two plaintiffs should hire a debt-collection agency to hound Giuliani all day and night, like would happen to a normal person.
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Dec 21, 2023 19:59
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Is there anyone who hasn't hitched their wagon to Trump who hasn't gotten screwed massively? Jesus, Rudy used to be on top of the world, now look how far he's fallen. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.
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Dec 21, 2023 20:03
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Cimber posted:Is there anyone who hasn't hitched their wagon to Trump who hasn't gotten screwed massively? Jesus, Rudy used to be on top of the world, now look how far he's fallen. Haley is the only one I can think of who managed to work at a high level in the Trump admin and not get brought low due to it.
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Dec 21, 2023 20:06
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Cimber posted:Is there anyone who hasn't hitched their wagon to Trump who hasn't gotten screwed massively? Jesus, Rudy used to be on top of the world, now look how far he's fallen. And yet people are still lining up to do business with him. "I'm not like all those other people who shook Donald Trump's hand and were ruined for it, they were all suckers and not smart like me."
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Dec 21, 2023 20:09
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Haley is the only one I can think of who managed to work at a high level in the Trump admin and not get brought low due to it. She’s fighting for scraps on a stage with a guy who is suicide bombing the front runner, an anti-charismatic torture freak and the world’s most annoying try-hard Trump dickrider, and won’t win anything for it. She’s a loser too.
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Dec 21, 2023 20:11
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selec posted:She’s fighting for scraps on a stage with a guy who is suicide bombing the front runner, an anti-charismatic torture freak and the world’s most annoying try-hard Trump dickrider, and won’t win anything for it. She’s a loser too. She might be the VP nominee.
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Dec 21, 2023 20:14
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Cimber posted:She might be the VP nominee. This feels less realistic than Biden kicking it and somehow Bernie becomes the ‘24 Dem nominee
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Dec 21, 2023 20:17
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This Is the Zodiac posted:Look at those thighs. Just perfect. Wanna lick Ketchup and well done steak gristle off of them.
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Dec 21, 2023 20:22
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Nervous posted:Wanna lick Ketchup and well done steak gristle off of them. A cursed post
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Dec 21, 2023 20:28
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Nervous posted:Wanna lick Ketchup and well done steak gristle off of them. Too long for a thread title or…?
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Dec 21, 2023 20:37
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selec posted:This feels less realistic than Biden kicking it and somehow Bernie becomes the ‘24 Dem nominee Yeah Trump doesn’t need to pick a safe choice this time, who may not be 100% on the trump train. He gets to go with the craziest motherfucker who pleads absolute loyalty to him. You’ll get an MTG or a Kari Lake long before you get a Haley
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Dec 21, 2023 20:38
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Trump is gonna pick Ivanka as his vp this time. Haley is a republican so she's a loser at life sure but she's managing to position herself as the default backup choice for the party which is a big accomplishment especially considering how many others have tried and failed to take that spot
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Dec 21, 2023 20:43
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Xiahou Dun posted:Too long for a thread title or…? No, its perfect
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Dec 21, 2023 20:46
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Skex posted:"No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability." It's a hilarious notion that they obviously meant the amendment to encompass every possible permutation of Office-holder (a more modern version of the term "officer",) but somehow left an air bud type loophole for people who are not technically "officers" according to a modern interpretation of an archaic usage of the term. The officer loophole is obviously at odds with the spirit of the law, but I guess this wouldn't be the first time that archaic language was intentionally misinterpreted to serve a specific agenda. A running problem with old-timey legalese is that people back then had the affectation to write everything in as flowery and verbose language as possible, despite it constantly opening the door to unwanted interpretation. Also everyone back then was drunk 100% of the time, so there's that. Svaha fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Dec 21, 2023 |
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Dec 21, 2023 21:22
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Svaha posted:It's a hilarious notion that they obviously meant the amendment to encompass every possible permutation of Office-holder (a more modern version of the term "officer",) but somehow left an air bud type loophole for people who are not technically "officers" according to a modern interpretation of an archaic usage of the term. I mean, the whole 'well regulated militia' part is defined as being just a reasoning for the 2nd, not being a requirement. Even though we know they considered it a requirement at the time and no other amendment has a reasoning clause.
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Dec 21, 2023 21:26
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Cimber posted:I mean, the whole 'well regulated militia' part is defined as being just a reasoning for the 2nd, not being a requirement. Even though we know they considered it a requirement at the time and no other amendment has a reasoning clause. You could easily boil all that down to something which hit all the relevant points without being prone to misinterpretation. Again, the people who wrote it were drunk and incredibly self impressed with their own ability to write things.
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Dec 21, 2023 21:40
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Didn't Madison famously write the whole thing in a weekend?
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Dec 21, 2023 21:49
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mdemone posted:Didn't Madison famously write the whole thing in a weekend? That's the constitution itself. The bill of rights was based on George Mason's declaration of rights or whatever he initially called it. Then they argued a bunch, with the usual bike shedding and petty bickering.
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Dec 21, 2023 21:56
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It really is a fine example of why you should always include a section defining all the terms you are using and whom they apply to. No one should ever deify a text, because language changes, and thus the meaning of the text changes in the popular interpretation of it in opposition to the intent. If you have to go down a rabbit hole of reading ancient correspondence to discern how the law is supposed to be applied, something has gone very wrong.
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Dec 21, 2023 21:57
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gregday posted:That’s not going to protect him. His "strategy" so far has mimicked Alex Jones pretty much step by step, so it's not surprising he's doing this as next move even though it's destined to fail.
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Dec 21, 2023 22:06
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FMguru posted:It's been often observed that literally every single person who has business dealings with Trump ends up worse off (often much worse off) for having done so. I think its 1 of 2 things: because they see all the slack jawed idiots he is able to grift and lack imagination or social skills to pull it off the same way so they think that if they just suck up to him they'll be able to ride his coattails to richdom. OR they think they're Frank Underwood and THEY'LL be the ones to be the puppet master of Trump unlike all those other fools. Everyone who has been around Trump for a while knows either of these 2 things is BS (Trump is gonna Trump) but hope springs eternal with these fuckwads I guess.
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Dec 22, 2023 00:00
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PC LOAD LETTER posted:I think its 1 of 2 things: because they see all the slack jawed idiots he is able to grift and lack imagination or social skills to pull it off the same way so they think that if they just suck up to him they'll be able to ride his coattails to richdom.
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Dec 22, 2023 00:05
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PC LOAD LETTER posted:OR they think they're Frank Underwood and THEY'LL be the ones to be the puppet master of Trump unlike all those other fools.
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Dec 22, 2023 00:07
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Svaha posted:It really is a fine example of why you should always include a section defining all the terms you are using and whom they apply to. No one should ever deify a text, because language changes, and thus the meaning of the text changes in the popular interpretation of it in opposition to the intent. Wasn't the original expectation/intent that there'd be a lot of revision, that the Constitution would be a living document? Beyond just constitutional conventions and such, I think I remember reading discussion about making a recurring meeting set every 20 years so people would have a chance to adjust things every generation. Instead we get textualism and originalist idiocies and an ossified sanctified document for them to interpret
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Dec 22, 2023 00:32
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