|
James Garfield posted:Nobody said you were obligated to praise a politician every time they do something you want, only that if you never give them credit for doing things you want you shouldn't be surprised that they don't do everything you want. The credit you give them is your vote, not praise. They probably like the praise, but praises aren't votes.
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2023 23:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 00:26 |
|
|
Fork of Unknown Origins posted:I don’t really get how I can show appreciation or whatever to a national politician in any way that they will notice on any level, except maybe mass donations with comments about why specifically you’re donating? Like I can post on a message board that I love or hate him but I doubt Biden is a goon. I mean it's collective action, you can write or call their office. I don't think expecting to personally decide the actions of an official who represents thousands or millions of people is reasonable. theCalamity posted:The credit you give them is your vote, not praise. My understanding is this is a discussion of policy, not how to vote. You can use your vote to express preference for one candidate's policy positions but you can't usually vote on a specific policy issue. James Garfield fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Dec 22, 2023 |
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2023 23:09
|
|
|
James Garfield posted:I mean it's collective action, you can write or call their office. I don't think expecting to personally decide the actions of an official who represents thousands or millions of people is reasonable. Right, so if it’s letter writing or whatever then it makes total sense to write a letter when they do something you like, to tell them to keep doing it. Call it praise, positive reinforcement, whatever you want to call it, but that makes sense.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2023 23:11
|
|
|
Meatball posted:Then I hope that preisdent Newsom (or whoever wins) has some good plans because the Republicans can cross out "project 2025" and write in "project 2029" very easily. To overcome that would need a vastly changed USSC to slap that poo poo down, and that's not going to happen without packing the court. Packing the court isn't going to happen until the filibuster is removed. Do you see Senator Chuck Schumer having the courage to go for something like that, assuming the democrats can somehow keep the Senate that long?
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2023 23:15
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:I'm kind of confused here, because your tone here seems like you're disagreeing with Skex, but your actual words appear to be agreeing with them. I get the sense that maybe you misunderstood the context of Slex's post? You're right, it's an is/ought problem. Obviously politicians are all human beings with their own needs and wants, and you're more likely to get what you want if you appeal to their egos. It really shouldn't be that way, but it is. It's one of the major flaws of representative democracy imho. It can be engineered in such a way that the representatives are essentially elected oligarchs with minimal accountability to the people, and that is in fact what the founding fathers wanted it to be. Maybe it's the best way to get things done, but the idea of having to praise the president to get him to do good things really rubs me the wrong way. Especially since Biden has proven himself to be a supremely lovely person over the last two months.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2023 23:20
|
|
|
I don't think the original poster was very serious about positive reinforcement and was just mad people were negative about a person they like. Not even negative, just saying the action taken was small and not as important as reported.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2023 23:23
|
|
|
Cimber posted:To overcome that would need a vastly changed USSC to slap that poo poo down, and that's not going to happen without packing the court. Packing the court isn't going to happen until the filibuster is removed. Do you see Senator Chuck Schumer having the courage to go for something like that, assuming the democrats can somehow keep the Senate that long? I saw him, past tense, bring a vote against the filibuster. It came up a couple votes short. One of the votes against has left the party and one is leaving the senate, so as usual it's a question of which direction voters care to reward.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2023 23:37
|
|
|
Gumball Gumption posted:I don't think the original poster was very serious about positive reinforcement and was just mad people were negative about a person they like. Not even negative, just saying the action taken was small and not as important as reported. Or maybe they were just tired of seeing the same handful of posters pop out of the woodwork to do the same Dems Bad dance like clockwork Or maybe that's just my lurker perspective, OP can speak for himself edit: no the irony of my avatar is not lost on me (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2023 23:40
|
|
|
In some actual good news for a change, the Wisconsin Supreme Court, which now has a liberal majority, ordered that new legislative maps need to be drawn for the 2024 election. Wisconsin has been one of the more heavily gerrymandered states thanks to a Republican state legislative majority dating back to the Scott Walker years. https://twitter.com/sbauerAP/status/1738300946839474433?s=20
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2023 23:43
|
|
|
predicto posted:Or maybe they were just tired of seeing the same handful of posters pop out of the woodwork to do the same Dems Bad dance like clockwork Sure, maybe
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2023 23:45
|
|
|
FlamingLiberal posted:In some actual good news for a change, the Wisconsin Supreme Court, which now has a liberal majority, ordered that new legislative maps need to be drawn for the 2024 election. Wisconsin has been one of the more heavily gerrymandered states thanks to a Republican state legislative majority dating back to the Scott Walker years. I'm actually surprised they did not impeach that newest justice for *reasons* like they were talking.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2023 23:48
|
|
|
Cimber posted:I'm actually surprised they did not impeach that newest justice for *reasons* like they were talking. I guess the election results reminded them that they actually don't have a mandate to govern and are held in power by a patchwork of undemocratic spit and baling wire. Straight up overturning an election for very obviously partisan reasons must have been seen as risking the whole thing unraveling and possibly causing significant internal unrest
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2023 23:51
|
|
|
Cimber posted:I'm actually surprised they did not impeach that newest justice for *reasons* like they were talking. Apparently they decided against it because of the outcry and etc. it’s it Wisconsin or Michigan where the gop got blown out in 22?
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2023 00:12
|
|
|
Dull Fork posted:https://apnews.com/article/trump-january-6-justice-department-90b93eeb663ebaf67a2e0bc266390fa0
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2023 00:27
|
|
|
Fork of Unknown Origins posted:I don’t really get how I can show appreciation or whatever to a national politician in any way that they will notice on any level, except maybe mass donations with comments about why specifically you’re donating? Like I can post on a message board that I love or hate him but I doubt Biden is a goon. Write a letter to his office? Vote for him? Donate to his reelection campaign? Volunteer for his reelection campaign? Tell all your friends and family about the good things Biden is doing on all the issues they care about? Stick a Biden 2024 yard sign in your front yard? There are lots of ways you can support a candidate that does things you like. If you don't provide actual political support to the candidates who do things you like, then you don't get things that you like anymore. Either because the candidates stop doing those things that don't bring any support, or because they lose the election due to not having enough support. One of the biggest recurring subjects in this thread in recent weeks is about how polls are showing that people either don't realize the good things Biden has done or don't agree that those things were good. With a response like this, it's no wonder. Fister Roboto posted:You're right, it's an is/ought problem. Obviously politicians are all human beings with their own needs and wants, and you're more likely to get what you want if you appeal to their egos. It really shouldn't be that way, but it is. It's one of the major flaws of representative democracy imho. It can be engineered in such a way that the representatives are essentially elected oligarchs with minimal accountability to the people, and that is in fact what the founding fathers wanted it to be. To the extent that praise is even a factor here, it's not about praising Biden so he can feel good about himself. It's about praising Biden so that other potential voters feel that he's a good candidate they should vote to reelect, as well as letting his staff know that you support the thing he did and that they should do more of it. If he does thing X for the sake of winning votes, and then his target audience reacts with angry rants about how he shouldn't feel entitled to their votes or political support just because of X, then it's not likely that he's going to continue doing things along the lines of X.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2023 00:31
|
|
|
Dapper_Swindler posted:Apparently they decided against it because of the outcry and etc. it’s it Wisconsin or Michigan where the gop got blown out in 22? BTW, what's your take on why the scotus decided to skip ruling on trump's immunity? The christmas season?
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2023 01:03
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:To the extent that praise is even a factor here, it's not about praising Biden so he can feel good about himself. It's about praising Biden so that other potential voters feel that he's a good candidate they should vote to reelect, as well as letting his staff know that you support the thing he did and that they should do more of it. On the other hand, you could just as easily assert that if his target audience showers him with praise for every meager scrap he throws at them, then he can get by with just throwing them scraps. Ultimately I don't think this can be a very fruitful conversation, because what goes on in Joe Biden's head is mostly unknowable to us, and it just comes down to a difference in our own personal political philosophies. And mine is: the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2023 01:30
|
|
|
The idea of praising Joe Biden when he's actively supporting a genocide and actively lying to the public about it constantly is sickening.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2023 01:49
|
|
|
I don't think Biden supports genocide, I just think he's too chicken poo poo to tell Israel to stop. He may be thinking that he'll lose the Jewish votes if he says anything, which is really disturbing if you think about it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2023 02:30
|
|
|
John Yossarian posted:I don't think Biden supports genocide, I just think he's too chicken poo poo to tell Israel to stop. He may be thinking that he'll lose the Jewish votes if he says anything, which is really disturbing if you think about it. He could have just done literally nothing at all and it would have been better for Palestine. A rock with googly eyes glued to it would have been a better and stronger leader over the last few months.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2023 02:46
|
|
|
John Yossarian posted:I don't think Biden supports genocide, You're overestimating him. quote:Biden’s comments were offensive, Begin said. Suddenly he [Biden] said: “What did you do in Lebanon? You annihilated what you annihilated.” And then you take everything he's said since October 7, like that without Israel there wouldn't be a safe Jew in the world - an incredible thing to say as the commander in chief of a country with about 7 million Jews. He really is a committed Zionist who believes Israel is a necessary state that must be defended even if it costs unlimited civilian lives. Joe Biden posted:I have long said: If Israel didn’t exist, we would have to invent it. I heavily doubt he is mainly concerned about Jewish votes. Jews are too concentrated in states where he is not vulnerable - New York, California, Illinois, Maryland - or Florida which he is bound to lose. Really PA is the only state where the Jewish vote could make an impact, and there are about as many Muslims as Jews in PA - both 1% of the population. I think his order of concern probably looks like: 1. Sincere attachment to Israel 2. Concern about AIPAC/Israel lobby money being spent against him and other Democrats 3. Jewish votes.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2023 02:47
|
|
|
Jewish votes DO matter in the house though. I agree with you that he also just genuinely believes in what he's doing, but in general presidents do also care about having a house that can support their agenda.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2023 02:53
|
|
|
Fork of Unknown Origins posted:Was there something I missed or are you referring to Reade? I wouldn’t call that accusation anything close to credible. Why would it not be credible?
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2023 02:56
|
|
|
reignonyourparade posted:Jewish votes DO matter in the house though. I agree with you that he also just genuinely believes in what he's doing, but in general presidents do also care about having a house that can support their agenda. From what I gather loss of Jewish votes were part of why Dems underperformed in New York in 2022, due to pushback against state/city Dems' policies on Jewish schools in NYC. Not saying that's Biden's primary motivator, but the Jewish vote is not something to comfortably write off.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2023 03:01
|
|
|
Probably Magic posted:Why would it not be credible? Because Joe Biden is the good guy. Even if he held a woman up against a wall and forced his fingers into her vagina against her will, he is the leader of the Democratic Party and we must support him. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2023 03:07
|
|
|
If you ever feel like you need to write a post like that to make a point or be funny, just .. don't, ever
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2023 04:36
|
|
|
Yes, that is some good advice, Kavros.Cimber posted:Its my opinion, but I think Governors are better than Senators due to their having actual executive experience. Newsom is setting himself up for 2028, but thats going to be some serious headwinds if (hopefully) Biden gets reelected. Governor of California, though? Eh... even leaving aside how Newsom rubs people the wrong way, being the head of a state with so many obvious problems that are constantly hammered on in the national media just makes you way too vulnerable. Ol' Tent City Gavin. poo poo sidewalk Gavin. But, usually, if the governor isn't from a state that is totemic, it's also harder to nationalize the election and use negative partisanship to whip up your base when you're running against a governor, because they didn't vote on all of Nancy Pelosi's communist bills or whatever. Fork of Unknown Origins posted:Right, so if it’s letter writing or whatever then it makes total sense to write a letter when they do something you like, to tell them to keep doing it. Call it praise, positive reinforcement, whatever you want to call it, but that makes sense. Misunderstood fucked around with this message at 04:57 on Dec 23, 2023 |
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2023 04:55
|
|
|
Killer robot posted:From what I gather loss of Jewish votes were part of why Dems underperformed in New York in 2022, due to pushback against state/city Dems' policies on Jewish schools in NYC. Oh god, I remember that briefly being a scandal, when it was revealed that New York was funding a separate school system for Hasidic students that made kids stupider. I guess nothing's going to be done about that.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2023 05:10
|
|
|
Gripweed posted:Oh god, I remember that briefly being a scandal, when it was revealed that New York was funding a separate school system for Hasidic students that made kids stupider. I guess nothing's going to be done about that. For the love of god, has twitter eroded everyone's concept of object permanence? Just because you have not had a story about something cross your feed does not mean nothing happened. At least google it! The state (after dragging its heels) issued a final report in July and passed new inspection and subject requirements; there's ongoing litigation from the schools on the new requirements. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 05:39 on Dec 23, 2023 |
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2023 05:36
|
|
|
I've been offering encouragement, validation, and often stern criticism to Pete since high school days 10/10 would recommend
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2023 05:53
|
|
|
Uglycat posted:I've been offering encouragement, validation, and often stern criticism to Pete since high school days Mate, who is Pete? Has this impacted him materially and made a difference? Tbh, it does seem to be a divide that some people want to appeal to the better nature's of people earning more money than them and then people who see that they should be considered public servants and the best they should receive is silence. It's an interesting thought but impossible to test though as there isn't really a control group of politicians.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2023 08:21
|
|
|
Josef bugman posted:Mate, who is Pete? Has this impacted him materially and made a difference? Uglycat has know Pete Buttigieg since they were in school and was a big supporter of him during the primaries on this forum. Often the ones closest to a candidate are the ones that influence them which is a luxury the common people dont have. All we can hope for is the ones with the candidates ears are also listening to us.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2023 10:39
|
|
|
Misunderstood posted:Do you have any examples? I could imagine somebody describing something that I might call "campaigning" as "vote scolding." https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-allies-condemn-far-left-calls-cease-fire-israel-hamas-war-americans-remain-pro-israel https://twitter.com/igorbobic/status/1721965596533801241   https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/political-commentary/obama-democrats-left-criticism-915350/ https://nypost.com/2023/12/06/news/white-house-but-not-biden-rips-university-presidents-over-antisemitism/ https://www.nationalreview.com/news/white-house-denounces-repugnant-osama-bin-laden-tiktok-trend/ https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-12-17/campaign-2024-biden-s-supporters-need-to-start-acting-like-it https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/04/15/nancy-pelosi-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-481704 quote:After the members of the Squad became the only four Democrats to vote against an immigration bill backed by Pelosi, she breezily dismissed their opposition. “All these people have their public whatever and their Twitter world,” she told The New York Times in an interview, after breezily popping a chocolate treat in her mouth. “But they don’t have any following. They’re four people, and that’s how many votes they got.” They will endless criticize and scold anyone to the left and then turn around and claim that you are not allowed to criticize themselves because it helps Republicans. Utter endless hypocrisy. And half their criticism is often over banal controversies ginned up by the right-wing. Republicans can come out and say the the Squad or university student protesters are all baby rapists and the White House will put out a statement saying raping babies is bad and people should stop doing it. koolkal fucked around with this message at 13:03 on Dec 23, 2023 |
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2023 12:54
|
|
|
Every electoral or legislative failure from the Democratic party is because the left did not give them the support that they are owed. Everything the democrats do is the best thing that is politically possible, and the least you can do is offer them your unconditional support. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2023 14:26
|
|
|
Dapper_Swindler posted:Apparently they decided against it because of the outcry and etc. it’s it Wisconsin or Michigan where the gop got blown out in 22? Michigan cleaned house of Republican office holders at the state level. Wisconsin is way too gerrymandered to do it but did put in a Dem state SC judge in a special election last year, flipping the majority on the bench from rep to dem, which will hopefully start to undo it because they also have a Dem gov. Oracle fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Dec 23, 2023 |
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2023 14:32
|
|
|
I had no idea Fetterman owned this much.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2023 15:13
|
|
|
koolkal posted:[a bunch of random-rear end links] "Vote scolding" is just a bizarre idea to begin with, and one of those things (like the definition of "electoralism" that means "there are elections") that only really exists as a concept among a very small subset of the online left.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2023 15:36
|
|
|
Hmm, realized this while having breakfast. If Trump's removal from the ballot is upheld, what about other people involved in January 6th, such as Josh Hawley.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2023 15:44
|
|
|
Cimber posted:Hmm, realized this while having breakfast. If Trump's removal from the ballot is upheld, what about other people involved in January 6th, such as Josh Hawley. CREW did previously get a county commissioner removed from office in New Mexico quote:An eyewitness to Griffin’s behavior testified that Griffin also took on a leadership position within the mob at the Capitol on January 6th. Videos of Griffin’s speeches en route to Washington, DC for the “Stop the Steal“ rally showed Griffin’s willingness to stop, by any means necessary, a Biden presidency. In the days after the attack, Griffin continued to defend the insurrection, boasted about his involvement, and suggested a possible repeat of it in the future. Following a federal indictment for his behavior, he was convicted of breaching and occupying restricted Capitol grounds. While not "convicted for breaching and occupying", Trump has a much lengthier and more direct involvement than anyone like Hawley, MTG, etc. He also did more to take advantage of the delay, which has been a key determination in the rulings thus far and will almost certainly be the key element should the Supreme Court not reinstate him.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2023 16:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 00:26 |
|
|
koolkal posted:https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-allies-condemn-far-left-calls-cease-fire-israel-hamas-war-americans-remain-pro-israel You've got a bunch of links that don't seem related to the quotes which otherwise go without commentary or explanation. Often from radically different years and contexts. Even in the USSR and Maoist China they would critique their left flank when there's contention, that is what happens in a healthy democracy at a minimum. Like what does the repugnant Osama Bin Laden tiktok trend have to do with establishment dems alledgedly doing vote scolding? What does the University President incident have to do with it? This seems misleading. I also have no idea what context Fetterman is responding to, which might be a lot of the doom and gloom about polls nothing about the left specifically.
|
|
#
?
Dec 23, 2023 16:15
|
|
