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John Yossarian posted:I don't think Biden supports genocide, I just think he's too chicken poo poo to tell Israel to stop. He may be thinking that he'll lose the Jewish votes if he says anything, which is really disturbing if you think about it. At this point there is basically no difference in if he does or doesn’t actively support it or not. Nucleic Acids fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Dec 23, 2023 |
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Dec 23, 2023 16:21
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Misunderstood posted:It looks like you found one thing that is kind of almost vote scolding and then decided to just fill it out with a dozen "mean things the Dems said about the left" links instead. Wait, which is it .. what they posted isn’t vote scolding? or vote scolding isn’t real?
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Dec 23, 2023 16:59
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John Yossarian posted:I don't think Biden supports genocide, I just think he's too chicken poo poo to tell Israel to stop. He may be thinking that he'll lose the Jewish votes if he says anything, which is really disturbing if you think about it. I think it's more likely that Biden - along with much of the rest of America's political and media elite - doesn't think Israel is actually engaging in genocide here. They're all quite used to defending bloody bombing campaigns waged against a foreign country with absolutely zero regard for collateral damage against civilian countries, after all. Since Israel is mostly going through the exact same motions the US usually does, I suspect it's actually quite difficult to convince longtime defenders of American foreign policy that this is something more than that. Aztec Galactus posted:Every electoral or legislative failure from the Democratic party is because the left did not give them the support that they are owed. Everything the democrats do is the best thing that is politically possible, and the least you can do is offer them your unconditional support. If we can step out of the sarcasm universe and return to the real world for just a moment here, the farthest-left president in our lifetimes is polling poorly against Trump and has a deeply underwater approval rating. Meanwhile, in Congress, leftist candidates seem unable to win anything but the bluest of deep-blue seats, leaving Dems unable to muster even 50 Senate votes without relying on diehard conservatives, and massively groundbreaking progressive bills have done absolutely nothing to shore up support for left-leaning Dems in Congress. If we don't want another GOP trifecta under Trump, then we do in fact have to occasionally hand it to the people who are actually accomplishing real leftist political achievements, and work to help them win so they can do more and better. No, you don't owe anyone anything. But if you want progress on issues, then it's important to lend your political support to people who are actually seriously pushing for real progress on those those issues, even if the progress isn't quite as much as you'd like (and especially if the progress was held up by the other branches of government working to thwart it). If not, then they either lose the election, or abandon positions that seem to be hurting them more than helping them. If you think that Joe Biden hasn't done anything leftist, then can you please at least argue that instead of whatever this is? It's not the most interesting subject, but it's a million times more productive than sarcastic tweet-length shitposts accusing people of being, what, Democratic Party loyalists? And discussing Joe Biden's policy has the advantage of being rooted in actual reality rather than philosophical beliefs, so we can deal in things like facts and evidence, instead of a discussion that's made up entirely of unsupported opinions and personal attacks.
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Dec 23, 2023 17:00
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The Top G posted:Wait, which is it .. what they posted isn’t vote scolding? or vote scolding isn’t real? It’s just not something that anybody in the world has any thoughts or feelings about except for the aforementioned subset of the online left. Nobody is going around saying “grrr, people are condescending to me about not voting for [more culturally aligned candidate].” Most people who don’t vote just legit don’t give a poo poo. In general, requesting that people vote for you tends to result in more votes for you than doing the opposite. There are a lot of rhetorical ways you can request that. “You’re being dumb, wtf” is one of them and it actually does work on a lot of people. Misunderstood fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Dec 23, 2023 |
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Dec 23, 2023 17:05
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most people who i know who don't vote do tend to get annoyed when pestered about it
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Dec 23, 2023 17:08
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Killer robot posted:From what I gather loss of Jewish votes were part of why Dems underperformed in New York in 2022, due to pushback against state/city Dems' policies on Jewish schools in NYC. The use of "Jewish votes/schools" here could be a lot more useful it it were more specific. It's Hasidic schools (yeshivos) which basically spend an hour or two a day teaching normal school subjects and then spend the rest on learning religious law. And they consistently misrepresent themselves to the state in order to get as much public funding as possible while producing students who often aren't fully fluent in English and struggle with arithmetic. The thing is that these Hasidic communities are also really well-functioning turnout machines because they have very strong centralized authority in the form of their religious leaders. These leaders can negotiate with politicians really effectively because when they promise thousands or tens of thousands of votes in one direction or the other, they're not bluffing at all. Generally these leaders are much much more concerned with securing maximum funding and minimum oversight for their own communities than wanting someone who's pro-Israel, but either way they usually end up negotiating these deals with right-wing candidates, and that's what happened in 2022. Obviously this is a totally separate dynamic from the vast majority of Jews in New York/across the US, who are just normal Americans whose religious minority status gives them a tilt toward social progressivism.
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Dec 23, 2023 17:09
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They weren’t going to vote anyway and they deserve to be annoyed.
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Dec 23, 2023 17:09
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Misunderstood posted:It looks like you found one thing that is kind of almost vote scolding and then decided to just fill it out with a dozen "mean things the Dems said about the left" links instead. I never said they were vote scolding. I said they scolded their voters.
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Dec 23, 2023 17:14
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Misunderstood posted:They weren’t going to vote anyway and they deserve to be annoyed. Or maybe, just maybe, they would have voted but aren’t going to for specific reasons. Such as the president strongly supporting a genocide.
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Dec 23, 2023 17:14
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Misunderstood posted:They weren’t going to vote anyway and they deserve to be annoyed.
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Dec 23, 2023 17:15
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Scolding is what you do with intransigent children. So I’m pro vote scolding.
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Dec 23, 2023 17:33
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There's also the thing here where a lot of examples of vote scolding seems to be politicians scolding other politicians which is just normal politics. Because Progressive/Liberals care about that sort of thing. It just the national stage version of what we do here in this thread playing out.
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Dec 23, 2023 17:36
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Ogmius815 posted:Scolding is what you do with intransigent children. So I’m pro vote scolding. It is, in fact, not childish not to vote when the person you’re being scolded to vote for is helping carry out a genocide.
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Dec 23, 2023 17:46
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EDIT: Nevermind, this argument has been had before and it's probably edging into "martial law".
Stabbey_the_Clown fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Dec 23, 2023 |
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Dec 23, 2023 18:01
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:It is when the result of that will be to assist a candidate which is even MORE pro-genocide. “Vote for the man who is committing a genocide right now to avoid a hypothetical future genocide” is not a rallying cry I’d advise any political party to run with.
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Dec 23, 2023 18:03
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I actually had a dream last night that it was election time 2024 and Biden was losing because people were trying to send him a message by not voting or voting 3rd party. Because of this Trump got reelected and was sending my family off to live in caves in the Idaho mountains. Yeah, it was a strange dream. But I woke up this morning rather disconcerted.
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Dec 23, 2023 18:03
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Nucleic Acids posted:It is, in fact, not childish not to vote when the person you’re being scolded to vote for is helping carry out a genocide. Stabbey_the_Clown posted:It is when the result of that will be to assist a candidate which is even MORE pro-genocide.  I'm nipping this in the bud now. Anyone who posts about the ethics of voting, lesser-evilism, VBNMW, or anything similar will be getting at least a twelve hour probation. I don't care which side of the debate you are on.
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Dec 23, 2023 18:07
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e: saw warning... e2: you know I totally get and pretty much agree with keeping the topic out of USCE. It's a perpetual argument generation machine and if it's left unchecked it swamps literally everything else out. But I do actually think that debate is going to be a huge deal in the 2024 election - there are certainly a lot of early indicators of that. It's a legitimate front that Biden and the Dems have to fight the election on while also trying to fight the right for his share of independent moderates, and it could have a really big effect. I think it's something that really ought to be discussed - would it be permissible to have a thread for that purpose? Misunderstood fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Dec 23, 2023 |
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Dec 23, 2023 18:08
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https://www.jsonline.com/story/news...ss/71988012007/ Pro-Palestinian protesters in Milwaukee call for Gaza ceasefire, vow to defeat Biden quote:Pro-Palestinian protesters assembled near the site of President Joe Biden’s visit to Milwaukee Wednesday and demanded that the United States support a ceasefire in Gaza to end the Israel-Hamas conflict. More Muslim communities organizing against Biden, urging people to abandon him over his support of Israel which is conducting an ongoing genocide in Palestine.
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Dec 23, 2023 18:21
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Inferior Third Season posted:
I've been on this forum since its inception with different accounts and it's always funny to see the one topic in D&D that will absolutely never reach a resolution, bubble up to the surface again. I predict peace in Israel before I think this argument will ever be over. I know I'm posting adjacent to the topic you just banned so I'll take the probe if you need to, but I'm really just saying I feel for ya man. You're punching at endless ocean waves.
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Dec 23, 2023 18:23
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theCalamity posted:https://www.jsonline.com/story/news...ss/71988012007/ Hopefully Biden understands he can win them back with positive reinforcement
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Dec 23, 2023 18:25
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theCalamity posted:https://www.jsonline.com/story/news...ss/71988012007/ Circumventing congressional oversight to sell Israel weapons that they’ll use to commit genocide is perfectly normal, I don’t know what they’re so upset about.
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Dec 23, 2023 18:37
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Gumball Gumption posted:Hopefully Biden understands he can win them back with positive reinforcement I think the reinforcement is part of their issue with him.
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Dec 23, 2023 18:37
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Not sure if anybody saw this anywhere yesterday but the Wisconsin Supreme Court ruled yesterday that the state's legislative map must be redrawn. Anybody who knows anything about Wisconsin politics knows this is huge, and that without this decision it might have been decades before a Democratic legislature in WI was remotely possible. The GOP had gerrymandered a <5 point advantage into an huge unassailable majority. This decision is the direct result of the liberals' win in the April 4 Supreme Court election. Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel posted:The Wisconsin Supreme Court on Friday ordered the Republican-controlled state Legislature to draw new legislative boundaries ahead of the 2024 election, arguing their GOP advantage is unconstitutional — delivering a long-sought win for Democrats who have stayed deep in the Legislature's minority for more than a decade. Misunderstood fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Dec 23, 2023 |
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Dec 23, 2023 18:41
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Main Paineframe posted:It's easy to cherrypick one or two numbers out of one poll and say that single number is a decisive factor in politics, but reality typically doesn't work out quite so simply. Which is good, because the polls are saying that voters prefer the Republicans' economic policies, yet Biden has so far resisted the pressure to abandon his leftist stances and trend rightward on economics like the last few Dem presidents did. Main Paineframe posted:If we can step out of the sarcasm universe and return to the real world for just a moment here, the farthest-left president in our lifetimes is polling poorly against Trump and has a deeply underwater approval rating. Meanwhile, in Congress, leftist candidates seem unable to win anything but the bluest of deep-blue seats, leaving Dems unable to muster even 50 Senate votes without relying on diehard conservatives, and massively groundbreaking progressive bills have done absolutely nothing to shore up support for left-leaning Dems in Congress. Main Paineframe posted:Biden has been the most pro-labor president since WWII, both in words (the first president in history to join a picket line!) and in action (Biden's Dept of Labor has actually been quite activist). But leftist Twitter hated him in the first place, and social media tends to generally amplify negativity and hatred while minimizing happy news, so all the good things he did go unnoticed or forgotten. The unions are going to be out and loud for Biden in 2024, but it's anyone's guess whether anyone's going to listen to them when @lib_smasher_69 is pumping out viral tweets about how Joe Biden is the union destroyer. Is anyone actually buying this? You can't seriously believe Biden is slipping in the polls because he is too progressive. Please stop. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 23, 2023 18:43
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Misunderstood posted:Not sure if anybody saw this anywhere yesterday but the Wisconsin Supreme Court ruled yesterday that the state's legislative map must be redrawn. Anybody who knows anything about Wisconsin politics knows this is huge, and that without this decision it might have been decades before a Democratic legislature in WI was remotely possible. The GOP had gerrymandered a <5 point advantage into an huge unassailable majority. This is the direct result of the liberals' win in the April 4 Supreme Court election. And being that this is internal to the state, I don't see how the USSC could get involved in these sorts of things.
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Dec 23, 2023 18:44
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Koburn posted:Is anyone actually buying this? You can't seriously believe Biden is slipping in the polls because he is too progressive. Good thing that's not what he said, like even remotely!
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Dec 23, 2023 18:46
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Koburn posted:Is anyone actually buying this? You can't seriously believe Biden is slipping in the polls because he is too progressive. That's an incredibly dishonest low effort troll designed to bait into a flame war
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Dec 23, 2023 18:51
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Koburn posted:Is anyone actually buying this? You can't seriously believe Biden is slipping in the polls because he is too progressive. Biden's poll performance is almost exactly in line with party ID in the same polls. If the polls are right, he's slipping because the electorate (especially young and non white voters) is more Republican than it was in 2020 and than recent off-year and special elections suggest, and he's too progressive for those Republican voters. James Garfield fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Dec 23, 2023 |
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Dec 23, 2023 18:53
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Main Paineframe posted:If we can step out of the sarcasm universe and return to the real world for just a moment here, the farthest-left president in our lifetimes is polling poorly against Trump and has a deeply underwater approval rating. Ok. They must have meant for other, unrelated reasons?
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Dec 23, 2023 18:53
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Koburn posted:Is anyone actually buying this? You can't seriously believe Biden is slipping in the polls because he is too progressive. It's a lot less about what Biden has done (which we have ample evidence the voters are only dimly aware of) and more what they perceive him to have done, or what he represents (along with Democrats in general.)Objection to a president from the left party is always overwhelmingly going to both come from the right, and redound to the advantage of, the right. I have to roll my eyes pretty hard when I see people left of Biden viewing his bad approval ratings as some kind of personal victory. To treat it as ridiculous that being seen as too far left could hurt Biden's approvals is... I mean, it beggars belief, sorry. It's kind of a stunning misunderstanding of American politics. From September... Democrats Are Too Liberal For Their Own Voters (whatever on Newsweek, and that headline can gently caress off, but Morning Consult polls are well regarded...) Newsweek posted:A Morning Consult poll conducted between August 29 and September 1 and released Monday found, by a nine-point margin, that voters believe the Democrats are more ideologically extreme than Republicans. Voters also find the GOP more capable of governing, tackling big issues, and keeping the country safe. Misunderstood fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Dec 23, 2023 |
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Dec 23, 2023 19:10
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Ogmius815 posted:I had no idea Fetterman owned this much. It is pretty wild seeing a new Manchin emerge like a poo poo-Kaiju from the bog
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Dec 23, 2023 19:11
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Koburn posted:Is anyone actually buying this? You can't seriously believe Biden is slipping in the polls because he is too progressive. This is something that can happen extremely easily in the United States. There's also this terrible cycle where progressive politicians repeatedly and regularly have their support cut out from under them by their own base in a way that liberals/centrists/the right rarely have to deal with. The right likes to make a big fuss about their candidates not being right enough (but still make sure to vote them in and offer the critical support necessary to hold power) and the left likes to make a big fuss about their candidates not being left enough (and leaves them twisting in the wind). So it's not going to be impossible that biden, trying to bridge support between progressive and centrist/liberal factions, is able to lose support by doing more of the correct thing, especially when we already know that centrist liberals really like to undercut progressives harder than they'll attend to right wingers.
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Dec 23, 2023 19:18
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selec posted:It is pretty wild seeing a new Manchin emerge like a poo poo-Kaiju from the bog Out of curiosity, what did he do recently to have leftists all of a sudden hate him? Is it just him saying he’s not a progressive and being super pro-Israel? Those things were well known last year, so I assume there’s something I’m missing…
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Dec 23, 2023 19:20
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Kalit posted:Out of curiosity, what did he do recently to have leftists all of a sudden hate him? Is it just him saying he’s not a progressive and being super pro-Israel? Those things were well known last year, so I assume there’s something I’m missing… It’s about going on an immense lying campaign about being progressive in interviews, in campaign materials, in statements from surrogates, using the very word itself many, many times and then outright acting like we’re stupid to believe that, and his genocidal rhetoric. He’s a liar, and an inhumane tool of empire.
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Dec 23, 2023 19:22
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Kalit posted:Out of curiosity, what did he do recently to have leftists all of a sudden hate him? Is it just him saying he’s not a progressive and being super pro-Israel? Those things were well known last year, so I assume there’s something I’m missing… It's the genocide support, yes. Also the part where he loudly said he's not a progressive or leftist while running as both.
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Dec 23, 2023 19:22
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selec posted:It is pretty wild seeing a new Manchin emerge like a poo poo-Kaiju from the bog He is somebody who has been pointed out as having potential cross-party appeal. He figures that to be more broadly popular, he should attack people or policies that are broadly unpopular when he has the opportunity (though I think he's also expressing genuine [and obviously, misguided] support for Zionism.) He's trying to brand himself as, "hey, I care about helping the poor and middle class, but I'm not one of those 'lefties'" - he's trying to wriggle out of the polarization a little bit. I dunno. It's pretty lovely to sell out Palestinians and immigrants like that. But I would have to see him attack and obstruct leftist economic policies, from the right, before I started to put him anywhere near a league with Manchin - if anything he seems like he's just become more economically populist. Like, you just can't be pro-wealth tax and be a "new Manchin," doesn't compute.
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Dec 23, 2023 19:23
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Kalit posted:Out of curiosity, what did he do recently to have leftists all of a sudden hate him? Is it just him saying he’s not a progressive and being super pro-Israel? Those things were well known last year, so I assume there’s something I’m missing… Nah I think it’s just his rabid support of Israel and recent statements about it since Israel started their genocide campaign.
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Dec 23, 2023 19:23
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Misunderstood posted:You can dispute whether that exact wording is appropriate... but, uh, yeah, pretty much. When voters constantly cry to the high heavens about immigration and crime, a vast majority are not complaining about border detention, or police brutality. I mean I find very little to be optimistic about in this country if this is how "normal" people see things. It's loving bizarre.
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Dec 23, 2023 19:24
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Kalit posted:Out of curiosity, what did he do recently to have leftists all of a sudden hate him? Is it just him saying he’s not a progressive and being super pro-Israel? Those things were well known last year, so I assume there’s something I’m missing… The genocide support seems like a good enough reason to me. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 23, 2023 19:24
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