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I'm struggling to work out if some people are being genuine with their Houthi It's also possible to dislike many of the Houthis' domestic actions while wholly supporting their new-found influence on Israel and the West. In the absence of any other checks and balances in the region, I'm personally glad that they are applying pressure, but the enemy of my enemy can still by my enemy etc... (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) fuctifino fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Dec 23, 2023 |
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Dec 23, 2023 00:44
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Kchama posted:The Houthis is named after the Houthi Tribes of Yemen, who uh, certainly were living in Yemen in 1949, and has a lot of leadership from one of those tribes. Hussein Badr al-Din al-Houthi, the founder of the Houthi Movement a member of the Houthi tribe. It was specifically hostility from one of those Houthi Tribes that the Yemeni Jews gave as reason for Israel to whisk them away to the Promised Land. Look, I know we're supposed to give detailed, substantial responses in the spirit of debate and discussion, but do you really not understand the difference between the Houthi tribe as a Yemeni demographic and the modern military movement/national government named after Hussein al-Houthi? Because I'm honestly not sure where to even begin here.
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Dec 23, 2023 00:51
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Darth Walrus posted:Look, I know we're supposed to give detailed, substantial responses in the spirit of debate and discussion, but do you really not understand the difference between the Houthi tribe as a Yemeni demographic and the modern military movement/national government named after Hussein al-Houthi? Because I'm honestly not sure where to even begin here. Yes, I was literally distinguishing between the two. My original post was that they were conflating the 1949 flight with the 2016-17 ethnic cleansing that we are currently speaking about. Which is true. One happened because of fears of the Houthi Tribe's persecution in 1949, and the other was done by the Houthis, a movement spearheaded by the Houthi Tribe. They are two separate things, and I was telling him we were talking about the latter because he mentioned the former. Which is something entirely different.
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Dec 23, 2023 00:57
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fuctifino posted:I'm struggling to work out if some people are being genuine with their Houthi genocide denials, or if this is simply concern trolling to distract from the main subject at hand. It's a matter of evidence-based fact that the Houthis undertook a genocide. Yes it was a small genocide, but it was still a genocide in the very literal sense of the word. Why are people arguing about this?
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Dec 23, 2023 01:02
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cat botherer posted:The Houthis have not done a genocide. I get that word genocide has gotten watered down, but c’mon. I've edited 'genocide' to 'ethnic cleansing' if it helps make my point
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Dec 23, 2023 01:05
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If you had stuck to the general idea of "antisemitism and religious persecution is bad, we shouldn't give the Houthis a free pass on their rhetoric" there would be nothing to disagree with. However, we have now spent an entire page talking about a supposed population of 2000 people that literally DID NOT EXiST, from your OWN SOURCES. If you are incapable of doing a mea culpa about this and reflecting on how easy it is to fall into a narrative rut, then there is no discussion to be had. To review, the source in question is the citation within the UN report called "‘Even war discriminates’: Yemen’s minorities, exiled at home" And the author is Rania El Rajji. Within that report, on page 10, it contains the following sentences: "While reports differ as to the exact number of Jews remaining in Yemen, our interviewees reported there were presently 83 members of the community, mainly divided between Sana’a and Raida. They keep a low profile, with men tucking away their payots or sidelocks, and practise their religious rituals in the privacy of their homes." You have hallucinated the slaying or expulsion of 1500 people. Either cite something other than the same line in the same report to back up this number or acknowledge that you have misread. Here's one of many articles from prior to the Houthis taking control establishing a much lower number to begin with, and a pattern of declining population due to emigration in 2009: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8418990.stm Here's WaPo in 2015 estimating 100: https://web.archive.org/web/2016020...elp-to-get-out/ Stop carrying on about something that is not factual, the Houthis can be bad without creating phantasmal victims to make your points for you.
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Dec 23, 2023 01:14
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Given that ‘Is it Ethnic Cleansing or Not (Yemen Edition)’ is still going strong, here’s some updates on what’s happening in all of historic Palestine at the moment to 7.5 million Palestinians. 1) Some Israeli Jews, including those in the police forces, are really showing just how equal Israeli Palestinians are in theory and practice https://x.com/ireallyhateyou/status/1738300663694524469?s=46&t=jHhhCI6vsgw2RiO1nHWeIA 2) a much smaller but more welcome number of Israeli Jews are demonstrating against the murder of Palestinians in apartheid bantustans https://x.com/ha_matar/status/1738137787520397350?s=46&t=jHhhCI6vsgw2RiO1nHWeIA 3) Wapo investigation finds no evidence backing any of the IDF’s big claims about al-Shifa. Which doesn’t really matter anymore because the IDF has since destroyed 1/3 the hospitals in Gaza and dropped any pretence about the command and control centres nonsense while racist officers run over children in tents with tanks or bulldozers https://x.com/raphmim/status/1737963766485078314?s=46&t=jHhhCI6vsgw2RiO1nHWeIA https://x.com/saulstaniforth/status/1738172124961952189?s=46&t=jHhhCI6vsgw2RiO1nHWeIA 4) Israel’s been tearing up Palestinian cemeteries (which isn’t anything new by a long stretch). How occupying powers treat the dead of occupied groups is an excellent indicator of its intentions with regards to genocide  - not sure if the below video is NSFW or not. It’s from a news report and you’ll see incidentally dead and buried (then unburied) bodies in shrouds and a yellowed foot. It shouldn’t autoplay but watch only at your discretion. https://x.com/saulstaniforth/status/1737764994664615986?s=46&t=jHhhCI6vsgw2RiO1nHWeIA 5) Israel’s apartheid defence propaganda groups have been working overtime to try get celebrities onboard and visiting Israel. So far they’ve managed a bunch of c-listers or people way past their prime: - Michael Rappaport - who seems to have spent the last couple of weeks drinking with other c-listers and doing poo poo sketches https://x.com/michaelrapaport/status/1734694328591888416?s=46&t=jHhhCI6vsgw2RiO1nHWeIA - Debra Messing out on Apartheid safari https://x.com/rottedgutted/status/1737548139861614785?s=46&t=jHhhCI6vsgw2RiO1nHWeIA - Douglas Murray taking a break from Holocaust minimisation and stirring up yobs in Europe to join her and pretend to hide from missiles. https://x.com/douglaskmurray/status/1737118415851327966?s=46&t=jHhhCI6vsgw2RiO1nHWeIA - Jerry Seinfeld clearly turning up and not understanding why he’s got to stand next to Douglas Murray https://x.com/themikeismail/status/1738319698263973954?s=46&t=jHhhCI6vsgw2RiO1nHWeIA - Lee Kern, 1/9th the talent behind Borat 2 and going through some hideous racist mental health breakdown somewhat starstruck while he’s on apartheid safari he gets to meet people who’ve worked on some real stuff without getting fired by Ali G https://x.com/agirlcalledlina/status/1737389206719070278?s=46&t=jHhhCI6vsgw2RiO1nHWeIA Hong XiuQuan fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Dec 23, 2023 |
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Dec 23, 2023 01:53
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BougieBitch posted:we have now spent an entire page talking about a supposed population of 2000 people that literally DID NOT EXiST, from your OWN SOURCES. What you are doing here is both frustrating and disturbing. Here is the source you initially said was worded too ambiguously: quote:In Yemen, the Houthis have coerced Jewish and Baha’i communities into leaving, blackmailing them by arbitrarily detaining religious leaders, influencers and community members, negatively impacting the Baha’i population and, reportedly, resulting in only one Jew remaining in the country, from a population of approximately 1,500–2,000 in 2016. You said you could not tell whether the 1,500-2000 figure describes the population of Jews or the pooled population of Jews and Bahais. I don't think it's ambiguous at all, but when there's ambiguous language in a UN report, there's an easy fix - look at the same report in another language. The translators work very hard to ensure that the reports contain equivalent information. quote:En el Yemen, el movimiento huzí ha detenido arbitrariamente a líderes religiosos, personalidades influyentes y miembros de las comunidades judía y bahaí para coaccionar a esas comunidades a que se fueran, lo que ha repercutido negativamente en la comunidad bahaí y, según se informa, ha hecho que solo quede en todo el país una persona judía, de una comunidad que rondaba los 1.500-2.000 miembros en 2016 The Spanish version of the report describes a Bahai community and a Jewish community, both targed for coerced exile from Yemen. This resulted in a population decline in the Bahai community and, in the Jewish community, one Jew remaining out of 1,500 to 2000 members in 2016. The report uses this astonishing decline in the Jewish population in Yemen to communicate the extent of forced removal against that ethnicity. If we look at the source cited by the UN report, it describes multiple estimates for the size of the Yemeni Jewish population in 2016. Interviews reflect very few, but an alternative estimate provides the exact same figure used in the UN report. Obviously this is the estimate being cited, because it's the only estimate on the page which corresponds to the claim in the UN report which accompanies the citation. It describes 1,500 to 2,000 Jews specifically: quote:However, according to some research, between 1,500 and 2,000 Yemeni Jews may have stayed in the country but concealed their religious identity for fear of persecution. It is not ambiguous at all that the UN report describes the forced exile of Yemeni Jews - ethnic cleansing - and to describe the extent of this cleansing, it says that a population of 1,500 to 2,00 has been reduced to one. You earlier promised that, if you could be shown that the UN was describing a population of 1,500 to 2,000 Jews, you would drop this point. BougieBitch posted:The sentence before makes it clear that the report is grouping the Baha'i and Jewish populations and the sentence after again mentions the Baha'i population. If you can find the actual data table that is being cited I will drop this point I have shown you that the UN is estimating that there were 1,500 to 2,000 Jews in Yemen before the Houthi movement embarked on a campaign of ethnic cleansing, and instead you have escalated your supposed confusion to saying I have "hallucinated the slaying or expulsion of 1500 people." I am only describing what has been reported by the United Nations. Again, I apologize to everyone who would rather be talking about the genocide in Palestine - me too. It is the current crisis and the one we must stop. I have to respond when I am accused of fabricating the victims of an ethnic cleansing campaign. Ethnic cleansing denial upsets me enormously, particularly when it is so reminiscent of the denial of Israeli ethnic cleansing campaigns against the Palestinian people. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Dec 23, 2023 |
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Dec 23, 2023 01:57
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Hong XiuQuan posted:- Douglas Murray taking a break from Holocaust minimisation and stirring up yobs in Europe to join her and pretend to hide from missiles. As a part-time connoisseur of shitbag fascists and ways to dunk on them, it has been kinda hilarious and depressing to see so many open antisemites get a free pass because they hate brown people more. Yeah I know that's always been how Bibi rolled, but you'd think there'd be some quality control somewhere.
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Dec 23, 2023 02:12
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Civilized Fishbot posted:
When a cited figure is unclear you should check the thing that it cites. In this case, what it cites is the report I literally just quoted at you which gives an estimate of 83 quote:If we look at the report cited by the UN report, it describes multiple estimates for the size of the Yemeni Jewish population in 2016. Interviews reflect very few, but an alternative estimate provides the exact same figure used in the UN report. Obviously this is the estimate being cited, because it's the only estimate on the page which corresponds to the claim in the UN report which accompanies the citation. It describes 1,500 to 2,000 Jews specifically: This is, again, an EXPLICIT misreading of the report. The 1500 to 2000 is a possible number estimated for the year 2005, with an in-line citation to an item in the works cited list published in 2006. Again, there is NO WAY that a good faith reading of that report would say that there were between 1500 and 2000 Yemeni Jews in 2016. Edit: essentially, the cited report summarizes how the damage had already been done to the Jewish population of Yemen before the Houthis even took power - the prior governments did an inadequate job preventing hate crimes, protecting against terrorist attacks from Al Qaeda and IS, and providing support for the destitute, leading many to emigrate. I'm sure the Houthis didn't meaningfully improve on that track record, but they did not murder or exile 1500 Jewish Yemenis in the years from 2016 to 2022 I'm just going to drop the entire section in question here so that reasonable people can make their own determination about which way is textually supported and leave it at that: quote:Between 1949 and 1950, an estimated 49,000[34] Yemeni Jews were airlifted to Israel in a secret operation that was named Operation Magic Carpet, or Wings of Eagles. Only 3,500 remained. Large waves of migration came to a halt with the 1962 war in the north of Yemen. A travel ban remained in place until 1992. While estimates varied, in 2005, the remaining Jews of Yemen were thought to number between 200 and 500.[35] However, according to some research, between 1,500 and 2,000 Yemeni Jews may have stayed in the country but concealed their religious identity for fear of persecution. [36] Here's that cite: 36 Research, including interviews with a number of Yemeni researchers and journalists, conducted by the author in the north of Yemen in 2006 It then continues: quote:The situation for those who stayed continued to Several factors, including "risk of forced conversions by members of the Houthis", contributed to the decline from 2006 to 2016. It's fine to say the Houthis are antisemitic then and now. However, the de facto Houthi government from 2016-2022 did not murder or exile 1500 Jewish people, which is the thing you stated here Civilized Fishbot posted:What scale counts as ethnic cleansing, if not the forced expulsion or murder of at least 1,500 people? BougieBitch fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Dec 23, 2023 |
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Dec 23, 2023 02:13
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BougieBitch posted:Translation is often done after the fact by someone other than the original author, so this is terrible advice. The UN holds its translators to basically the highest standard in the world, and the translation process involves regular reference back to the team that prepared the report and its accumulated data, particularly to address this issue. The report says 1,500 to 2,000 Jews were in Yemen before the Houthis embarked on a campaign to make them leave. It says this in unique ways in multiple languages. It cites a source which, on that page, provides an estimate for 1,500 to 2,000 Jews in Yemen. A good-faith reading of the report is that it is claiming that 1,500 to 2,000 Jews were in Yemen before it was ethnically cleansed. A bad faith reading of the report might look like "well, it's kinda ambiguous in English, and I assume the Spanish translation is just unreliable, and when it talks about 1500-2000 people it's probably citing an estimate that's really 83 people, not the one that has the exact numbers the UN ended up reporting." The UN report says 1500-2000 Jews in English, it says 1500-2000 Jews in Spanish, it cites a report saying 1500-2000 Jews. You are insisting that the UN report obviously says something other than what it plainly says, to the point of accusing me of forging an ethnic cleansing. You are unwilling to accuse the UN of forging an ethnic cleansing so you are accusing me of a bad-faith reading. What I've shown you obviously illustrates that, in multiple languages, the UN estimates 1,500-2,000 Jews in Yemen before the Houthi campaign against them, and cites a source with the same estimate. Without providing numbers, it describes a significant drop in the Bahai population due to the same policy of forced exile. If you want to move on to "nah, gently caress the UN, they made up these Jews" then there's no response I can have to that - there are many pro- and anti-Houthi actors and observers in Yemen, but the UN is the only agency that's sufficiently organized and impartial to produce a reliable estimate of the level of Jews before and after the Houthi ethnic cleansing campaign. But you're not saying the UN is wrong, you're saying I am deliberately misrepresenting UN sources, and this is obvious bullshit. Again, I am sorry for the length of this derail, but this user is accusing me of fabricating an ethnic cleansing by deliberate misrepresentation of sources. EDIT: BougieBitch posted:I'm sure the Houthis didn't meaningfully improve on that track record, but they did not murder or exile 1500 Jewish Yemenis in the years from 2016 to 2022 The report of the UN Special Rapporteur on freedom of religion or belief still speaks for itself. I would not be belaboring this point if others did not belabor in denying it, justifying it, or both. quote:In Yemen, the Houthis have coerced Jewish and Baha’i communities into leaving, Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 03:49 on Dec 23, 2023 |
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Dec 23, 2023 02:23
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Given that ‘Is it Ethnic Cleansing or Not (Yemen Edition)’ is still going strong, here’s some updates on what’s happening in all of historic Palestine at the moment to 7.5 million Palestinians. Twitter embeds not working sure sucks, since that's a lot of good (actually mostly awful news) that people should read.
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Dec 23, 2023 02:34
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Kchama posted:Twitter embeds not working sure sucks, since that's a lot of good (actually mostly awful news) that people should read. It really is an excellent post. If the URL's are changed to 'twitter.com' rather than 'x.com', they should embed ok
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Dec 23, 2023 02:39
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oh my god i cant believe the little crappy ships are whats loving over Prosperity Guardian https://twitter.com/johnkonrad/status/1737805821453414817
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Dec 23, 2023 08:05
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They don't have the right armament, you need something with a decent surface to air capability.
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Dec 23, 2023 08:23
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knox_harrington posted:They don't have the right armament, you need something with a decent surface to air capability. The LCS thing has been a giant boondoggle of MIC grift, and the Navy has already retired one, and wants to retire more. They're plagued with constant breakdowns due to severe design flaws, and just aren't made for the types of missions that exist in reality. They also are slow in all but the calmest waters, which even littoral waters often aren't. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/04/us/politics/littoral-combat-ships-lobbying.html quote:JACKSONVILLE, Fla. — The 387-foot-long warships tied up at the Jacksonville Navy base were acclaimed as some of the most modern in the United States fleet: nimble, superfast vessels designed to operate in coastal waters and hunt down enemy submarines, destroy anti-ship mines and repel attacks from small boats, like those often operated by Iran. cat botherer fucked around with this message at 12:47 on Dec 23, 2023 |
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Dec 23, 2023 12:40
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More nations are deciding Operation Guardian of Prosperity just isn't worth it: https://x.com/lowkey0nline/status/1738516662364602422?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q
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Dec 23, 2023 12:48
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Yes I know they suck in general, but even if they were better at their specified job they would still be the wrong type of ship for that mission. Defending yourself against incoming missiles or drones is one thing, providing area defence for other ships quite another. Something that's interesting is the RN have been getting smaller cheaper missile systems (like Martlet for against surface craft) which seems like a good idea in the current environment. For defending against cheap drones it's a waste to ping off a Standard or Aster every time.
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Dec 23, 2023 12:50
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I remember once seeing ridiculous looking anti-drone bazookas at some Australian thing. What kinda countermeasures would you want against drones?
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Dec 23, 2023 13:55
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Oddly enough the old school ww2 style of anti air would be best against drones, lots of small guns firing rapidly. Drones are relatively cheap, bullets are as well and you really just need to in the case of most of those cheap drones, keep them from actually hitting your ship since the drone is more or less the projectile, then you save your missiles for actual big threats. So... Angry R2D2 for example is what you want, many of them to keep from being overwhelmed by a swarm of drones.
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Dec 23, 2023 14:16
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Jeeesus. https://x.com/muhammadshehad2/status/1738502825921937907?s=46&t=ARI_L-v32Oind1-d9B3a3Q Video contains no gore (that I could see, at least), only a guy on the ground describing the situation.
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Dec 23, 2023 14:19
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Darth Walrus posted:Jeeesus. There are videos (I won’t share) of people walking around and there are corpses everywhere. Missing limbs. Bullet holes. Testimonies of many, many executions of civilians. Killing fields.
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Dec 23, 2023 14:43
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the houthis ethnically cleansing 1500 people is what israel is doing daily. their very very worst war crimes that everyone is crying about is what israel did yesterday
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Dec 23, 2023 15:57
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Can't go lower than zero people
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Dec 23, 2023 17:24
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Here's a clip of a former Israeli deputy FM talking about how Biden is continuing to provide cover to Israel's bombing campaign with things like stalling the UN. He says this is very deliberate on the part of Biden to give Israel as much time as possible. https://twitter.com/tparsi/status/1738598107271639526?s=20
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Dec 23, 2023 19:55
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Does 10/7 get reassessed at some point? The public consciousness of it is something like, Hamas gunned down 1500 people at a concert, then went on to decapitate an NICU unit and drink their blood to fuel a rape frenzy. Since then its become increasingly clear that many IDF claims about the event were false, walked back, had no evidence provided, or have had neutral investigation actively resisted. Additionally, friendly fire has been admitted to be a large fraction of the civilian casualties, and theres imagery of destruction at the kibbutz's that could not have been done with what Hamas had available, i.e. destruction of entire buildings by tank fire. Similarly, the IDF's use of gunning people down from helicopters with its difficulty to distinguish militants from civilians The fact that Israel also holds thousands of Palestinian hostages makes Hamas capturing a fraction of as many hostages hardly a evil unique to them. Thousands of Palestinians languish in Israeli prisons without charge or trial, they are hostages. And Israel, both before and now during this conflict, is responsible for ten times the civilian casualties as Hamas is, since it came to power. The justification that their bombings are targeted while Hamas is barbaric and indiscriminate completely falls apart when confronted with this ratio. Similarly, the idea that 10/7 justifies 20k deaths would be refuted by the grossly disproportionate death toll of the prior two decades justifying 10/7. So why exactly has a government with a long history of lying, a vastly greater indifference to civilian casualties, and no interest in independent investigation allowed to dictate what happened on 10/7? A narrative of a horde of bloodthirsty savages breaking containment to rape your women was fully accepted as canon, and worse, continued to be believed even as piece after piece of evidence that Israel had claimed to justify that sentiment was retracted or fell apart under even the lightest scrutiny. A quarter of the casualties were military, the objective of capturing hostages should take into consideration that Israel has captured an order of magnitude more hostages and the purpose is for a reciprocal trade, and the assessment of responsibility for civilian casualties should factor in the IDFs extremely more vast destructive capability, historic(as well as current) disregard for distinguishing civilians and military, and resistance towards any form of independent investigation. It seems entirely reasonable to view this as a military operation by Hamas that would have had a likely high civilian cost even under best conditions, that was driven far out of proportion by the IDF tripping on its own dick out of confusion and fear and bringing vastly too powerful military might down upon mixed populations of their own civilians as well as Hamas militants. Given that the other main players in the conflict either are happily killing nearly ten thousand children in a military objective, or believe that bombing a wedding to kill one guy is a justifiable operation, it seems bizarre that 10/7 is treated as a uniquely barbaric atrocity. The only reason it is seen as such is residual emotional energy from a series of poorly fabricated events, like the decapitation of 40 babies, meant to provide cover for a pathetic and disproportional response by the IDF. https://thegrayzone.com/2023/10/27/israels-military-shelled-burning-tanks-helicopters/ Yeah its the Gray Zone, maybe not objective enough but it links to all the primary sources in the article, largely Israeli outlets. Sufficient here to get my point.
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Dec 23, 2023 21:10
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celadon posted:Does 10/7 get reassessed at some point? Just so you know, that specific bit of reporting from Blumenthal has been Widely discredited. . A large number of the 'primary sources' in that article are Haaretz and they came out publicly to tell him to go gently caress himself for being such a liar about their reporting. The problem with gray zone isn't 'they aren't objective enough" it is that they are liars. They have a position and they will simply lie to try and get you to believe what they believe. Which, it looks like they have somewhat succeeded. Edit: that was weird even for my autocorrect. Caros fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Dec 23, 2023 |
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Dec 23, 2023 21:59
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Caros posted:Just so you know, that specific bit of reporting from Blumenthal has been Widely discredited. . How is it widely discredited? Like I read through the sources linked and the claims made in the article you are posting are not more accurate interpretations they are just pro-Israel. One of the biggest recurring problems is not mentioning Hamas atrocities enough in an article against Israeli friendly fire. Legitimately just use the linked articles, they are not painting a rosy picture. "" posted:After the pilots realized that there was tremendous difficulty in distinguishing within the occupied outposts and settlements who was a terrorist and who was a soldier or civilian, a decision was made that the first mission of the combat helicopters and the armed Zik drones was to stop the flow of terrorists and the murderous mob that poured into Israeli territory through the gaps in the fence. This is literally saying they stopped trying to distinguish civilians from terrorists and decided indiscriminate fire was necessary
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Dec 23, 2023 22:16
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Caros posted:Just so you know, that specific bit of reporting from Blumenthal has been Widely discredited. . Widely discredited by israel, though. Considering the constant israeli lies, especially about this particular subject, and the "outrage" they exhibit over this reporting, not to mention the subsequent reports, pictures and video, and testimony that has come out since this article about israeli tanks rolling into and shelling the kibbutzes really seem to suggest that the liar(s) here is not Blumenthal (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 23, 2023 22:16
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The last time the "helicopters strafing civilians" discussion was brought up, there were much better sources than grayzone offered against the assertion. Keeping information like that away from Israeli press would be incredibly hard. Israel doesn't suppress their own press enough to keep stories like that from running. Friendly fire likely accounts for small fraction of the deaths. I don't think Israel's or the world's response would have been significantly different if it were "only" ~500 civilians killed in a terrorism attack.
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Dec 23, 2023 22:36
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celadon posted:How is it widely discredited? Like I read through the sources linked and the claims made in the article you are posting are not more accurate interpretations they are just pro-Israel. One of the biggest recurring problems is not mentioning Hamas atrocities enough in an article against Israeli friendly fire. Legitimately just use the linked articles, they are not painting a rosy picture. Okay I was nice before, I'm going to be a bit of a dick now. This isn't an issue of 'interpretations'. Take this quote from the grayzone article: 'Israeli Apache helicopters attack inside Israel: “I find myself in a dilemma as to what to shoot at”' The context of that quote and the section that follows it in the grayzone article is intended to deceive you. They are trying to get you to think 'Wow, the situation was chaotic and the pilot didn't know what he could safely shoot at' But when you read the actual article the context become a gently caress ton more clear: 'I find myself in a dilemma as to what to shoot at, because there are so many of them [– terrorists]”' This isn't an issue of interpretation, it is selective editing with the explicit intention of changing the meaning behind the quote, it is that old Simpsons joke about grabbing her sweet can. It is Blumenthal intentionally taking quote after quote out of their original context in order to build a dishonest framing. Another example is: quote:“the pilots realized that there was tremendous difficulty in distinguishing within the occupied outposts and settlements who was a terrorist and who was a soldier or civilian … The rate of fire against the thousands of terrorists was tremendous at first, and only at a certain point did the pilots begin to slow down the attacks and carefully select the targets.” I can't see how you would ever arrive at this being an issue of 'interpretation' when you've been provided with a detailed breakdown of how they lied to you. This isn't an issue of two sides bickering over the data. It is entirely possible that what Blumenthal said is true, but the link you provided isn't evidence of that, it is just him blatantly misrepresenting the words of others in order to use his misrepresentations as proof. quote:This is literally saying they stopped trying to distinguish civilians from terrorists and decided indiscriminate fire was necessary No it isn't, it is saying the exact opposite. The point there was that it was extremely hard to check fire in the civilian area so rather than blindly fire into them they instead went and hosed down the breaches in the wall with gunfire because there aren't likely to be piles of civilians at breaches in the border wall. It concerns me that you end up reading the opposite of reality from that. Caros fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Dec 23, 2023 |
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Dec 23, 2023 22:39
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Israel's Social Security data provides what will probably be the final adjustment, at 1139 Casualties, 766 Civilians (36 Children, 71 Foreigners), 373 Security Forces (IDF, police, guards), for a ratio of roughly 1 combatant for every 2 innocent people killed. That's still a tragic figure, but the uncomfortable factor is that it's close enough that IDF-induced casualties could reduce it towards 1:1 Hamas induced Civilian casualties, which would be the "acceptable" ratio (with consideration of past wars) of 40-60% one would expect for an offensive. Normally it would be gruesome to say "well clearly the defenders randomly killed up to 200 of their countrymen!" But a lot of candid accounts from the invasion suggests that they were overwhelmed at best, gung-ho at worst:  That's 6% of the way there off one incident. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Dec 23, 2023 |
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Dec 23, 2023 22:39
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Neurolimal posted:Israel's Social Security data provides what will probably be the final adjustment, at 1193 Casualties, 766 Civilians (36 Children, 71 Foreigners), 373 Security Forces (IDF, police, guards), for a ratio of roughly 1 combatant for every 2 innocent people killed. It also ends up really spiking the absurdity of Israel's 'careful' war. Israel claims ~5000 hamas dead (unlikely) out of ~20,000 dead which puts them about 75% civilian casualties compared to 64% civilian casualties for Oct 7th. They are somehow killing more civilians in 'collateral damage' than murderers straight up executed civilians.
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Dec 23, 2023 22:50
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Caros posted:It also ends up really spiking the absurdity of Israel's 'careful' war. Israel claims ~5000 hamas dead (unlikely) out of ~20,000 dead which puts them about 75% civilian casualties compared to 64% civilian casualties for Oct 7th. What do you want to "reassess" the 10/7 attacks as? Is this a false flag thing? e: oops I meant the other guy. Still I'd like to understand the point!
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Dec 23, 2023 22:51
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Neurolimal posted:That's still a tragic figure, but the uncomfortable factor is that it's close enough that IDF-induced casualties could reduce it towards 1:1 Hamas induced Civilian casualties, which would be the "acceptable" ratio (with consideration of past wars) of 40-60% one would expect for an offensive. Sure, but they'd still be war crimes because they're targeting civilians.
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Dec 23, 2023 22:52
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ummel posted:Sure, but they'd still be war crimes because they're targeting civilians. Of course, it's mainly relevant for if the offensive should be characterized as "Hamas went on a uniquely indescriminate slaughter" or the more 'pedestrian' "young nihilistic soldiers tend to do war crimes."
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Dec 23, 2023 22:55
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I think the posted article is calling for both a historical reassessment (what happened and what didn't, who died and how) and a moral reassessment (what violence was evil and what violence was justified). Neither reassessment is inappropriate, but going back and forth between the two, that only creates confusion. Moral and factual claims should be kept distinct, moral and factual questions should be kept distinct. Here's something which definitely happened and is definitely evil: Airstrike Kills U.N. Worker and More Than 76 of His Relatives quote:A U.N. aid worker and more than 70 members of his extended family were killed on Friday near Gaza City, the same day that aid agencies sharply criticized the U.N. Security Council for passing a resolution that did not call for a full cease-fire in the besieged enclave. When is the last time that a state violently attacked the United Nations as much as Israel has?
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Dec 23, 2023 23:15
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I think the posted article is calling for both a historical reassessment (what happened and what didn't, who died and how) and a moral reassessment (what violence was evil and what violence was justified). Neither reassessment is inappropriate, but going back and forth between the two, that only creates confusion. Moral and factual claims should be kept distinct, moral and factual questions should be kept distinct. Probably never. But then again it is fairly rare for the UN to have a substantive presence basically anywhere.
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Dec 23, 2023 23:17
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Civilized Fishbot posted:I think the posted article is calling for both a historical reassessment (what happened and what didn't, who died and how) and a moral reassessment (what violence was evil and what of violence was justified). Neither reassessment is inappropriate, but going back and forth between the two, that only creates confusion. Moral and factual claims should be kept distinct, moral and factual questions should be kept distinct. That is a huge chunk of family. Frankly evil.
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Dec 23, 2023 23:44
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ummel posted:The last time the "helicopters strafing civilians" discussion was brought up, there were much better sources than grayzone offered against the assertion. Keeping information like that away from Israeli press would be incredibly hard. Israel doesn't suppress their own press enough to keep stories like that from running. Friendly fire likely accounts for small fraction of the deaths. I don't think Israel's or the world's response would have been significantly different if it were "only" ~500 civilians killed in a terrorism attack. Just a reminder that Israeli military censorship is extremely strict and it has ramped up its strictness after several hostage revelations (whether you think they apply to small, limited circumstance or wider). https://theintercept.com/2023/12/23/israel-military-idf-media-censor/ Note, the first two parts in that list are *extremely* broad. The military censor has recently complained about the pressure from Netanyahu to censor pretty much everything. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...8c-1f7f489c0000 Israel does not have a free press. Regarding the 'only' 500 civilians, the most recently revised figure for Israeli deaths is 695 and most people are still throwing out the 1,400 number. What is undoubtable though is that the IDF definitely killed several, at least a few dozen imo civilians. Quite possibly several hundred (judging by 200 corpses deemed to be Hamas, burned beyond recognition - if the IDF wasn't able to isolate Hamas pockets enough to know who was dead, then they likely died alongside civilians). I think even if it was found Hamas was directly responsible for 200 or even 100 deaths the overall messaging wouldn't change. This war isn't about the safety of Israeli civilians. This is about a humiliated political enterprise taking revenge on a subjugated people and using an opportunity to do what Netanyahu has always wanted in any case (to kill and get rid of as many Palestinians as possible). The media of Israel *should* be all over this like a rash. But it isn't because of censorship. ContinuityNewTimes posted:That is a huge chunk of family. Frankly evil. Last I checked, something like >300 families had lost more than 10 members, and >30 families had lost more than 30. That was beginning-mid November IIRC. The Al-Astal family has lost over 100. You can see 88 of the names on that preliminary list back when names were released because ghouls were claiming that the numbers were all lies. NYT on the Al-Astal family - https://archive.is/YimMT  The horror of the one you mentioned, carried out against the al-Mughrabi family, isn't even the numbers.... it's that it was achieved in a single strike. There's no meaningful difference in my eyes (and the eyes of many Palestinians) between dropping a bomb on a family like this and herding them into a gas van. It's extermination. Hong XiuQuan fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Dec 24, 2023 |
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Dec 24, 2023 04:30
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