|
mind the walrus posted:I GM'd some low-level Investigators in one-shots and it seems to have a higher curve for feeling good, with players needing to really um... investigate the combat tactics they want to use that other classes can kind-of do more easily and at least as effectively. Thaumaturge in-particular has a lot of "what if Investigator but 'non-religious but spiritual?" going for it. Thaumaturge is an incredibly well made and fun class and I encourage anyone thinking about playing an investigator to do a thaumaturge instead, it'll get you everything you want right out of the box.
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2023 01:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 03:59 |
|
|
gently caress. We already did our first session of Alkenstar too  I felt decently effective in combat, at least?
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2023 01:30
|
|
|
ZZT the Fifth posted:gently caress. We already did our first session of Alkenstar too I'm so sorry about the bad time you are going to have. I actually think a well made forensics investigator can probably do OK if the rest of the party knows what they are doing. Non magical healing is setting appropriate and important. The campaign has too many precision immune and mental immune enemies, though, so a team with a swashbuckler, pistolero, and investigator is going to get very badly wrecked. You really need to use your investigation powers. Hopefully you have lots of pf2e experience because investigator takes a lot more work to be good. I think most people should just play a rogue. KPC_Mammon fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Dec 24, 2023 |
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2023 02:18
|
|
|
if you want to have a fun time with investigator in combat it is very, very important that you stay on top of Pursue a Lead you can have two leads at once, you can swap or gain a lead from almost anything, it takes 1 minute and you can do it every 10 minutes and it is very generous in what you're allowed to designate and how little information you need to do so. you should strive to have at least some target you can Devise a Strategem as a free action against in every fight but honestly i feel like for what sort of campaigns APs tend to be just follow piell's advice Piell posted:Thaumaturge is an incredibly well made and fun class and I encourage anyone thinking about playing an investigator to do a thaumaturge instead, it'll get you everything you want right out of the box.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2023 02:40
|
|
|
I don't think my GM is going to let me change characters at this point, and also nobody else particularly seemed to want to build for healing.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2023 02:46
|
|
|
Out of combat stuff is hard to quantify beyond having large numbers for skill checks, so it's really easy to write off Investigator as "worse Rogue" because the Rogue's whole deal is having large numbers for skill checks while Investigator's shenanigans are more situational. In-combat, a lot of Investigator's utility comes from the ability to spend an action to know whether or not it's worth spending another action to Strike, and whether or not they've got a back-up plan for when Devise A Stratagem gives them a 4 or lower on the d20. Multiclassing Wizard / Witch and having a basic loop of Devise A Stratagem that will hit / Strike / Move or cast Shield vs Devise A Stratagem that will miss / Cast something nets real strong results. Single class and / or games without Free Archetype is going to be way more feast or famine. We've got an Inventor with a robot buddy in my
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2023 02:47
|
|
|
Froghammer posted:We've got an Inventor with a robot buddy in my yeah one of our kingmaker party is
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2023 02:49
|
|
|
In my experience (a total of one person between levels 1-6) the Forensic Investigator with Medic Dedication was arguably the star of the show. Great healing, good skills for out of combat, and solid damage in fights. So I wouldn't be discouraged at all.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2023 03:12
|
|
|
ZZT the Fifth posted:I don't think my GM is going to let me change characters at this point, and also nobody else particularly seemed to want to build for healing. For what it’s worth, I think Outlaws is an AP where an investigator can outright shine. You should be able to basically always get free devise thanks to the structure of the AP so long as you are consistent about keeping track of your investigation targets and changing them regularly, and fatal firearms own with Devise takes a lot of the bite out of precision immunity as you encounter it. If you have FA, once you get the medic essentials, pick up gunslinger for risky reload and the alchemical ammo feats and you will be a superstar.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2023 03:25
|
|
|
ZZT the Fifth posted:I don't think my GM is going to let me change characters at this point, and also nobody else particularly seemed to want to build for healing. Compare / contrast Fighter. I've played one for twelve levels and I probably could have picked my feats via throwing darts at a board and never felt useless.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2023 03:37
|
|
|
Chevy Slyme posted:For what it’s worth, I think Outlaws is an AP where an investigator can outright shine. You should be able to basically always get free devise thanks to the structure of the AP so long as you are consistent about keeping track of your investigation targets and changing them regularly, and fatal firearms own with Devise takes a lot of the bite out of precision immunity as you encounter it. If you have FA, once you get the medic essentials, pick up gunslinger for risky reload and the alchemical ammo feats and you will be a superstar. Yeah, I think Investigator can work well. However you need to be constantly scheming to keep your Leads active. You need to be the person paying active attention during plot stuff and making careful notes. Ideally with 2 leads, you want one on the mini-boss of the next map and one on someone in the next room. How you get that info will be partly paying close attention during any briefings/planning sessions you get and maybe looking for clues about guys in the next room. This leans on the GM a bit, but you need to be the guy looking around the room and asking basically if there is anything there at every opportunity. This is arguably what “That’s Odd” is for, but they have been gun shy about forcing GMs to provide information in PF2e. The benefit of this scheming is that you get a lot of free Devise a Stratagems and with Known Weakness, that’s also a free Recall Knowledge. You offhand a Fatal/Deadly weapon like a pistol and when your Devise a Stratagem roll is excellent, you go for a crit. It totally works, but you need to be focused to get the most out of it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2023 03:47
|
|
|
Froghammer posted:All of the Advance Player's Guide classes (Investigator, Swashbuckler, Witch, Oracle) have an assumed higher optimization floor than the ones from basically any other source. It's not that they're bad or that they can't contribute, but they each assume that you're going to steer your options in relatively specific directions in order to maximize what you're getting out of the class. If you have a solid plan for your character and Ancestry choices that are going to be relevant to your playstyle, you're going to be fine. I wouldn't fret about whether or not your character feels effective until you start feeling that your character isn't effective. Which is a big if. Witches are better with the Remaster. It’s not clear what, if any, buffs the other APG classes will be getting when Player Core 2 comes out; I know the Alchemist is getting improvements, but I’m not sure about the APG classes.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2023 03:52
|
|
|
KPC_Mammon posted:The campaign has too many precision immune and mental immune enemies, though, so a team with a swashbuckler, pistolero, and investigator is going to get very badly wrecked. Huh, I got pretty late in vol 3 before my GM admitted they were souring on it due to a ton of "human gunslinger" style enemies, but I don't remember that. And I did precision damage as a sniper gunslinger, so I should remember it. There definitely were a solid number of swarms, though.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2023 04:02
|
|
|
HidaO-Win posted:
... I didn't take That's Odd at 1.  I took Underworld Lore and Known Weaknesses since I figured we'd be doing crook things.Known Weaknesses HAS been doing work with free Recall Knowledge checks.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2023 04:08
|
|
|
ZZT the Fifth posted:... I didn't take That's Odd at 1. Nah Known Weakness is the better option than That's Odd since That's Odd is so GM dependent. Have a word with your GM that you will be angling for Leads at every opportunity and hopefully you can play ball together.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2023 04:15
|
|
|
Cyouni posted:Huh, I got pretty late in vol 3 before my GM admitted they were souring on it due to a ton of "human gunslinger" style enemies, but I don't remember that. And I did precision damage as a sniper gunslinger, so I should remember it. IIRC, Outlaws of Alkenstar has a fair number of robots, zombies, and robot zombies. Not that many precision-immune enemies, but lots of mental-immune enemies. Also, the robots are all weak to electricity, which is a bit of a mean trick because the lore pushes players towards non-casters.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2023 04:45
|
|
|
Yeah, I think it was really all the mental immune + DR really making my party's pistolero feel worthless. I'm probably wrong about precision immunity but aren't swarms immune? I'd recommend taking a blunderbuss backup weapon for all the swarms.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2023 05:00
|
|
|
Silver2195 posted:IIRC, Outlaws of Alkenstar has a fair number of robots, zombies, and robot zombies. Not that many precision-immune enemies, but lots of mental-immune enemies. Also, the robots are all weak to electricity, which is a bit of a mean trick because the lore pushes players towards non-casters. Easy, just take Alchemist Dedication, and use your infused reagents to make Electricity Elemental Ammunition to activate the robot's weaknesses (twice per turn, too, because it does persistent damage as well as splash damage).
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2023 05:12
|
|
|
Sounds like a perfect excuse to use Way of the Spellshot, assuming that's not too off-lore for the AP.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2023 05:26
|
|
|
VikingofRock posted:Easy, just take Alchemist Dedication, and use your infused reagents to make Electricity Elemental Ammunition to activate the robot's weaknesses (twice per turn, too, because it does persistent damage as well as splash damage). Honestly, if I were to go back to it, I might consider using Elemental Ammunition instead of Alchemical Shot. Alchemical Shot is real good, though, despite the downsides, because it converts your entire damage to that element to bypass resistances as well.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2023 07:13
|
|
|
KPC_Mammon posted:I'm so sorry about the bad time you are going to have. A rogue would have the same problem with precision immune enemies though. So if you consider investigators to be an alternate type of rogue for folks who want to play a skill monkey who is not a criminal then it's fine.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2023 07:20
|
|
|
Outlaws is totally fine for precision damage, it's mental immune enemies that are quite numerous, but it's not like they're in every encounter. It's still a minority. I ran it with a pistolero gunslinger and rogue both in the party and they had no issues other stretches of truly comedic dice luck one in a while.
|
|
#
?
Dec 24, 2023 07:50
|
|
|
I've had a few sessions recently where my players have acted sort of recklessly while traveling in what I have described to them as a "remote, untamed wilderness teeming with dangers", and I basically have been caught with nothing prepared to actually menace them with( or even create the illusion of danger) as they do so. I have been sort of relying on bullshit "you can try this, if you think that's a good idea!" sorts of commentary to instill doubt, but the way I've been running the game has simply not prioritized any of the more survival or mechanistic aspects of wilderness travel, so the danger is often totally illusory. Basically, I think my players are subconsciously realizing that my wilderness is made of cardboard and nothing is going to actually get in their way as they return to town if they press their luck, or if something does happen, it was going to happen all along. To be clear, we're not playing with random encounter tables and travel segments have basically amounted to a short narration while looking at a regional map where I describe the route and how many hours it takes, and one or two events that I've planned to happen along the way-- usually either some kind of curiosity of nature, or a chance to opt into an encounter. The adventure I'm making is pretty focused in scope and our sessions are on the slightly shorter end, so I suspect everyone is more interested in proceeding to the next key location than dealing with random encounters, and with that off the table I'm not quite sure how else to really convey to my players that travel is dangerous, or that god forbid they might even consider making investments or spending daily resources for the sake of travel. I could perhaps, rather than random encounters and rolling dice for every hour of travel or some other systematized solution, plan a small collection of specific encounters to keep in my back pocket and break glass in case of hubris? Maybe ensure that each one has some kind of introductory moment where the players can realize that they have crossed some kind of line and actually drawn something's attention, giving them an opportunity to take a more careful approach (or lean into violence if it turns out they actually want to). Camping is basically the same problem. They have not too brazenly camped in the middle of nowhere so far, but for the same reasons as above I have basically nothing prepared to test them if they decide to sleep in the middle of the haunted ghost woods where the trees weep blood, and I don't know if I feel great about threatening them with an encounter if they try to rest while they already feel drained. Some part of me thinks maybe none of this actually matters and I should just focus on the points of interest, but the adventure is highly focused on the circumstances and history of the region they're exploring, so at some point if the night is actually *not* dark and full of terrors then it feels like it starts to undermine the narrative and atmosphere of the whole thing. Scoss fucked around with this message at 06:23 on Dec 25, 2023 |
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2023 06:20
|
|
|
as a player I like knowing that if I gently caress around there are consequences, such as if I traverse a dangerous wilderness recklessly it will lead to something dangerous noticing make some weird poo poo happen. throw giant fresh carcasses in their path or fire blasted/acid bathed/mysteriously frozen landscapes, or menacing roars, or signs that something is tracking them, then ramp up and do various encounters and challenges if they stay reckless
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2023 06:28
|
|
|
Or use https://mimic-fight-club.github.io/ to grab a random monster of an appropriate level. Before I did my woodland adventure section of my game, I came up with several scenes the players could stumble into and if they got lost or chose to change course they would get those "bonus" encounters which they could choose to back out of if they didn't just blunder into them. But I like to over prepare. marshmallow creep fucked around with this message at 12:23 on Dec 25, 2023 |
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2023 12:19
|
|
|
Anyone try Pathwarden, the minimalist OSR-ish PF2e hack? https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/18ohrnk/pathwarden_the_answer_to_but_pathfinder_2e_is_too/ https://ghostspark-off.itch.io/pathwarden quote:I'll vouch for Pathwarden as a really interesting synthesis of some of Pathfinder 2e's best ideas (3-universal-action turns, +10/-10 crits) with OSR-like sensibilities (minimal HP growth, weighty but interruptible spellcasting, and more) while not being beholden to the typical forms of either (fast/slow turn initiative (a la SotDL), no attributes, no classes).
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2023 12:32
|
|
|
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/18qk6fm/remastered_beginner_box_news/ Tl;dr, beginner box reprint due out in late q1 (so, probably March), small price bump, errata’d to remaster rules, but NOT a new SKU/product, so digital copies will get updated. Which… 12 days left to pay 5 bucks to get a digital copy of the Beginner Box pdf from Humble Bundle, so… yeah. Suddenly a very good deal.
|
|
#
?
Dec 25, 2023 17:03
|
|
|
So, I've recently been convinced to DM a 2e game and I don't know if I'm just reading the rules wrong (likely) but spells and AOOs just seem weirdly frustrating in 2e and touch range spell, specifically, just seem completely pointless if the target has the ability to take an attack of opportunity since, as far as I can tell, you don't hold spell charges anymore. Also I don't like how the rules are just weirdly nested. Back in 1e at least it just said casting spells triggered the aoo. But in 2e the rule is that manipulate actions trigger the aoo, but also if you look at the rules for your spells you find out that everything except verbal components make your spells manipulate actions even if they don't have the manipulate trait. It makes the rules just weirdly frustrating to deal with since I have to flip through like five pages just to resolve one basic rear end interaction.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2023 06:22
|
|
|
Nuebot posted:So, I've recently been convinced to DM a 2e game and I don't know if I'm just reading the rules wrong (likely) but spells and AOOs just seem weirdly frustrating in 2e and touch range spell, specifically, just seem completely pointless if the target has the ability to take an attack of opportunity since, as far as I can tell, you don't hold spell charges anymore. Also I don't like how the rules are just weirdly nested. Back in 1e at least it just said casting spells triggered the aoo. But in 2e the rule is that manipulate actions trigger the aoo, but also if you look at the rules for your spells you find out that everything except verbal components make your spells manipulate actions even if they don't have the manipulate trait. It makes the rules just weirdly frustrating to deal with since I have to flip through like five pages just to resolve one basic rear end interaction. The nested components for spells thing has, I think, been clarified and resolved in the new Player Core book. (If you’re not aware, last month Paizo began a project of releasing a set of new revisions/errata++ to the core rulebooks - specifically the old core rulebook, GM Guide, Bestiary, and Advanaced Players Guide are replaced by a new Player Core and GM Core (out now) and Bestiary Core and Player Core 2 (coming in June) - in addition to incorporating a ton of errata they’ve also done a bunch of streamlining and clarification of rules text - such as getting rid of spell components and just directly tagging spells with the Manipulate/Auditory traits as needed - and done some other updates to strip out some vestigial D&Dism’s that were tying the game to the old WOTC OGL like alignment and the 8 schools of magic) As for AoO, the thing to remember is that the vast majority of creatures don’t have it - it’s an added tactical consideration for sure, but touch range spells are definitely not impossible to use, and tend to be stronger than longer range spells because of the inherent danger in using them. Chevy Slyme fucked around with this message at 06:37 on Dec 27, 2023 |
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2023 06:32
|
|
Chevy Slyme posted:The nested components for spells thing has, I think, been clarified and resolved in the new Player Core book. (If you’re not aware, last month Paizo began a project of releasing a set of new revisions/errata++ to the core rulebooks - specifically the old core rulebook, GM Guide, Bestiary, and Advanaced Players Guide are replaced by a new Player Core and GM Core (out now) and Bestiary Core and Player Core 2 (coming in June) - in addition to incorporating a ton of errata they’ve also done a bunch of streamlining and clarification of rules text - such as getting rid of spell components and just directly tagging spells with the Manipulate/Auditory traits as needed - and done some other updates to strip out some vestigial D&Dism’s that were tying the game to the old WOTC OGL like alignment and the 8 schools of magic) I wasn't aware, so I guess I'll check that out eventually. It'll be nice not to have to flip through a dozen odd pages trying to look basic things up. Though I do need the 8 schools of magic still for the game I'm running. And yeah, the majority of creatures don't have it, but when they do they can be brutal. Also while I'm still on about AOO's, does the new book clarify the rules on Move actions yet? Because from what I see it just sounds like any move action provokes, even if it isn't strictly to leave a square.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2023 06:42
|
|
|
Nuebot posted:So, I've recently been convinced to DM a 2e game and I don't know if I'm just reading the rules wrong (likely) but spells and AOOs just seem weirdly frustrating in 2e and touch range spell, specifically, just seem completely pointless if the target has the ability to take an attack of opportunity since, as far as I can tell, you don't hold spell charges anymore. Also I don't like how the rules are just weirdly nested. Back in 1e at least it just said casting spells triggered the aoo. But in 2e the rule is that manipulate actions trigger the aoo, but also if you look at the rules for your spells you find out that everything except verbal components make your spells manipulate actions even if they don't have the manipulate trait. It makes the rules just weirdly frustrating to deal with since I have to flip through like five pages just to resolve one basic rear end interaction. I do think that the manipulate trait stuff is confusing as hell, as far as like doing the nested tagging like they do it. Nuebot posted:I wasn't aware, so I guess I'll check that out eventually. It'll be nice not to have to flip through a dozen odd pages trying to look basic things up. Though I do need the 8 schools of magic still for the game I'm running. And yeah, the majority of creatures don't have it, but when they do they can be brutal. Also while I'm still on about AOO's, does the new book clarify the rules on Move actions yet? Because from what I see it just sounds like any move action provokes, even if it isn't strictly to leave a square. Rulebook posted:Some reactions and free actions are triggered by a creature using an action with the move trait. The most notable example is Attack of Opportunity. Actions with the move trait can trigger reactions or free actions throughout the course of the distance traveled. Each time you exit a square (or move 5 feet if not using a grid) within a creature’s reach, your movement triggers those reactions and free actions (although no more than once per move action for a given reacting creature). If you use a move action but don’t move out of a square, the trigger instead happens at the end of that action or ability. But yeah, that's why having AOO's is good, and also why not every enemy/player has it. Because yeah, any it means doing any sort of action like that is something the enemy or player can take advantage of.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2023 06:56
|
|
|
Nuebot posted:Also while I'm still on about AOO's, does the new book clarify the rules on Move actions yet? Because from what I see it just sounds like any move action provokes, even if it isn't strictly to leave a square. In PF2, AoO is treated as a powerful character/monster feature, which is why it's no longer a universal reaction and has more generous trigger conditions. quote:Trigger: A creature within your reach uses a manipulate action or a move action, makes a ranged attack, or leaves a square during a move action it’s using. Any action that has the [manipulate] or [move] trait can trigger the AoO. So yes, standing up from prone is a trigger because the Stand action has the move trait, even though you aren't moving squares. Note that moving between squares *within* the reach of a character that has AoO is indeed a trigger, so it is no longer necessary to leave threat range in order to trigger the attack, and you will also note that this makes reach weapons decidedly more nasty. It is possible to avoid suffering an AoO even while leaving squares if you can do it with an action, such as a teleport, which does not have the move trait. Nuebot posted:And yeah, the majority of creatures don't have it, but when they do they can be brutal. Encourage your players to use Recall Knowledge to learn about unfamiliar, dangerous looking monsters and whether they have any reactions. Scoss fucked around with this message at 07:55 on Dec 27, 2023 |
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2023 07:42
|
|
|
Should note that there aren't that many touch range spells in 2e that are worth getting close to enemies for, and I'm pretty sure every spellcaster has access to the Reach Spell class feat which let's you cast them at range. Shocking Grasp got remastered into Thunderstrike which is now ranged by default anyways. With the notable exception of Magus most 2e spellcasters have very little reason to deliberately put themselves in striking ranges of enemies. AoOs, being reactions, are also a limited ressource, with most enemies only getting one or two at most, so having the tankier party members spend an action to bait one out is a tactically valid play.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2023 12:37
|
|
|
Nuebot posted:And yeah, the majority of creatures don't have [AoO], but when they do they can be brutal. Take advantage by using monsters that don't have AoO and save AoO monsters for situations where it's really called for as a specific challenge. The amount of movement freedom this opens up on combat maps is incredible. Clerical Terrors posted:Should note that there aren't that many touch range spells in 2e that are worth getting close to enemies for, and I'm pretty sure every spellcaster has access to the Reach Spell class feat which let's you cast them at range. The Reach Spell feat does solve this but I don't love that it basically eats a feat for the spellcasters.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2023 12:59
|
|
|
At higher levels the amount of enemies with AOOs goes way up. It's almost one third of lvl15+ monsters that have it.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2023 13:07
|
|
|
Which at level 15+ makes sense? By that level a PC can and does have plenty of options for dealing with that. Moreover, high level PF2e campaigns seem to start around Level 10 and I can't imagine a GM throwing neophytes into level 15 characters given the raw horizontal spread of Feats, Items, Spells, and Archetypes (where applicable) and I say this as someone who has started players who never touched a d20 before at Level 10. By Level 15 the players presumably have enough basic mastery of the system to understand how to deal with AoO creatures.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2023 13:31
|
|
|
Also personally I like the tag rule system because it opens up a lot of design possibilities (Manipulate also interacts with things like the grabbed condition and certain spells) even if it's definitely an initial rules hurdle you have to learn. But I agree that embedded tags were confusing and getting rid of them in remaster was a good idea, although I don't feel like Auditory and Verbal components are really mechanically equivalent.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2023 14:17
|
|
|
Dexo posted:I do think that the manipulate trait stuff is confusing as hell, as far as like doing the nested tagging like they do it. That bolded text is a really important distinction that I don't think is well-known. I've definitely seen people talk about how characters with AoO can knock a target prone and keep it prone with AoOs that interrupt the attempt to stand up, but according to that rules tidbit (that notably does not appear within the text of the ability), that interpretation is wrong. Being a move action, standing up does provoke an AoO/RS, but only after you've completed the standing up action. So standing up cannot be disrupted.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2023 15:52
|
|
|
Dick Burglar posted:That bolded text is a really important distinction that I don't think is well-known. I've definitely seen people talk about how characters with AoO can knock a target prone and keep it prone with AoOs that interrupt the attempt to stand up, but according to that rules tidbit (that notably does not appear within the text of the ability), that interpretation is wrong. Being a move action, standing up does provoke an AoO/RS, but only after you've completed the standing up action. So standing up cannot be disrupted. Do note that I've always seen this in concert with Flail crit specialization, which can knock someone prone again.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2023 15:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 03:59 |
|
|
Fair point.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2023 16:15
|
|