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Imo the only vassal worth having is a mega corp, the amount of energy you can pull out of one is absurd. Shame you just have to hope one spawns nearby basically.
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Dec 22, 2023 21:36
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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PittTheElder posted:Imo the only vassal worth having is a mega corp, the amount of energy you can pull out of one is absurd. Shame you just have to hope one spawns nearby basically. Traditionally one of the best trade builds is to spawn as a Megacorp, spin off a hopeless one system vassal trade ally, then stop being a Megacorp while floating on a sea of credits.
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Dec 22, 2023 22:01
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Broadly speaking, while the AI may get some resource bonuses from difficulty level, their economy works the same way as yours does. Run a deficit, bad poo poo happens, like rebellions. Have to put the entire population on worker and CG/amenity jobs to avoid running into problems for the population existing, probably don't have too many pops to spare in order to generate things like alloys or science for the overlord. Takeaway is that you're probably taxing them more heavily than their economy can afford, and it's making them stagnate or even collapse. Either crank up the difficulty (which lets AI cheat in more resources for the same effort, which in turn lets you tax them more heavily without issue), have a more chill tax rate, or make your taxable vassals into prospectoria so the specialization (largely but not entirely) compensates for the taxes. In particular, go easy on the basic resource taxes. Cranking that up too much and/or too fast is what usually causes the vassal's economy to tailspin.
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Dec 22, 2023 22:08
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Vil posted:Broadly speaking, while the AI may get some resource bonuses from difficulty level, their economy works the same way as yours does. Run a deficit, bad poo poo happens, like rebellions. Have to put the entire population on worker and CG/amenity jobs to avoid running into problems for the population existing, probably don't have too many pops to spare in order to generate things like alloys or science for the overlord. Except I wasn't taxing them at all, because I was trying to build up their loyalty. I was going to tax the poo poo outta them later when they liked me. I didn't want to have them rebel against me, but I didn't figure I'd have to deal with them rebelling against themselves.
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Dec 22, 2023 22:11
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Cimber posted:Except I wasn't taxing them at all, because I was trying to build up their loyalty. I was going to tax the poo poo outta them later when they liked me. I didn't want to have them rebel against me, but I didn't figure I'd have to deal with them rebelling against themselves. Interesting. Usually it's the taxes that do in their economy. Still, there are always other factors, it's not like the AI always has a strong economy to begin with. Perhaps they recently lost a particularly juicy planet in a war, or because they figured a horrific inverse mass was a totally safe thing to keep around. Perhaps there's a nearby criminal megacorp which is benevolently gracing them with its "helpful" branch offices. Perhaps they're just doing random dumb AI poo poo without thoughts to the consequences.
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Dec 22, 2023 22:20
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I hate habitats
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Dec 23, 2023 00:01
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Cimber posted:Except I wasn't taxing them at all, because I was trying to build up their loyalty. I was going to tax the poo poo outta them later when they liked me. I didn't want to have them rebel against me, but I didn't figure I'd have to deal with them rebelling against themselves. Vil posted:Interesting. Usually it's the taxes that do in their economy. Still, there are always other factors, it's not like the AI always has a strong economy to begin with. If you're playing on captain then the day they became your vassal they lost 5 stability from every planet and 20% of their resource income, and took a nasty one-two punch of a ~9% increase in fleet upkeep costs alongside a ~13% reduction in naval capacity. They may not be being taxed by you but they're absolutely being taxed by the gods. E: it's even worse if you turn on the AI tech scaling thing, and due to paradox math they take less of a relative hit if they're going from Grand Admiral to Admiral. Splicer fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Dec 23, 2023 |
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Dec 23, 2023 01:43
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I can understand the logic behind the system but yeah the problem is the AI will of course try and tailor its economy with the bonuses, when those get downgraded it can have a hard time getting things on track, I don't think the AI can rebuild/destroy buildings/districts either so planets can get locked in further into the game.
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Dec 23, 2023 01:46
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Thats pretty stupid. Are we supposed to give them subsidies for a few years until they get their poo poo together, if they even do? Can we even have initial rules that give subsidies, or do we need to wait ten years after we take them as vassals before we can start giving them resources to keep them from falling apart. I think this vassal run is gonna get aborted and I'll try a diplo run instead.
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Dec 23, 2023 02:33
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You know, I have found the the commander governor class has a fun destiny trait, Grand Taskmaster, makes soldier pops produce energy food and minerals, 2 on the planet 1 on the sector level. Since commanders make soldier jobs on their planet as well based on their level you can get to like 50 soldier jobs on a fortress world and probably buff those resource numbers up since they are affected by modifiers I think so like maybe 4+ of each per soldier. Also doing math if you do one of the new defensive focused civics and get psionic theory and the other two tradition based reductions you can make those planets pops not count for empire size while producing a generous spread of resources for your use. Of course it's not as good as actually making the admirals and using you know good fleets that can kill things, but it's a nice alternative if you are trying some weird builds out maybe.
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Dec 23, 2023 03:03
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AtomikKrab posted:You know, I have found the the commander governor class has a fun destiny trait, Grand Taskmaster, makes soldier pops produce energy food and minerals, 2 on the planet 1 on the sector level. Since commanders make soldier jobs on their planet as well based on their level you can get to like 50 soldier jobs on a fortress world and probably buff those resource numbers up since they are affected by modifiers I think so like maybe 4+ of each per soldier. Also doing math if you do one of the new defensive focused civics and get psionic theory and the other two tradition based reductions you can make those planets pops not count for empire size while producing a generous spread of resources for your use. Meaning defensive-civ empires would be hurt substantially less from unruly pops, since the penalty is effectively halved.
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Dec 23, 2023 03:14
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I don't think I've been playing with vassals that long but I haven't had stability problems with them myself. Might just be luck, or maybe my over-generous 'yeah, sure, whatever' response to vassalization requests (or said vassalisations being voluntary) is actually the right move. And building holdings that do actually help planetary economies, ha. Playing Space Disney is more fun with plopping Disneylands everywhere. Oddly enough seems like a realistic problem; to maintain a vassal state you have to actually maintain said state, which unless you have very specific goals from it is indeed often more trouble than its worth. Especially when they've been conquered and thus both have been on a war footing for years and have a bunch of destroyed infrastructure.
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Dec 23, 2023 06:48
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Cimber posted:Thats pretty stupid. Are we supposed to give them subsidies for a few years until they get their poo poo together, if they even do? Can we even have initial rules that give subsidies, or do we need to wait ten years after we take them as vassals before we can start giving them resources to keep them from falling apart. I'd be curious what settings people who are/aren't having problems are playing, the lower the difficulty the bigger the proportional hit to your vassal so in theory I'd be expecting lower difficulty games to be getting the most internal detonations. E: I play scaling difficulty to commodore because gently caress you I don't need to defend my choices Splicer fucked around with this message at 12:34 on Dec 23, 2023 |
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Dec 23, 2023 12:25
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I don't think I've been playing with vassals that long but I haven't had stability problems with them myself. Might just be luck, or maybe my over-generous 'yeah, sure, whatever' response to vassalization requests (or said vassalisations being voluntary) is actually the right move. And building holdings that do actually help planetary economies, ha. Playing Space Disney is more fun with plopping Disneylands everywhere. In my case, I know exactly why I don't have those problems: I tend to take over tiny, 1-2 planet empires, often ex-primitives that start with literally nothing, so of course they spend some growing time getting subsidies, gifted systems, etc. Plus of course since they weren't an empire until just before I take over, they had no time tailoring their economy to their bonuses, and are therefore less hosed up when the vassalization hits. In other cases, when fairly big empires suddenly decide to my vassals, I tend to not give a poo poo in most cases. And if I do give a poo poo, I'm already at a point where my massive surplus in everything means I feel comfortable giving my vassals huge subsidies to prop them up. (This is also a mean fail-safe, as of course the AI will tailor their economy around my subsidies, and if they suddenly try to become independent, their economy will collapse if they actually try to leave.  )
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Dec 23, 2023 12:27
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Libluini posted:In my case, I know exactly why I don't have those problems: I tend to take over tiny, 1-2 planet empires, often ex-primitives that start with literally nothing, so of course they spend some growing time getting subsidies, gifted systems, etc. Plus of course since they weren't an empire until just before I take over, they had no time tailoring their economy to their bonuses, and are therefore less hosed up when the vassalization hits.
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Dec 23, 2023 12:30
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ShadowHawk posted:I'm pretty sure empire-wide pop size bonuses (psionic theory, the traditions, the defense civics) stack multiplicatively with pop-based pop size ones (docile/unruly, governor bonuses, planetary ascension benefits) Hmm... wiki lies to me but probably right that they do a per pop instead of a from pop, you can still get to a 90% reduction in empire size with the defensive civic, which isn't bad at all... actually beacon of liberty still lets you hit a 0% pop size I think? with the right stuff
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Dec 23, 2023 14:25
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ShadowHawk posted:I'm pretty sure empire-wide pop size bonuses (psionic theory, the traditions, the defense civics) stack multiplicatively with pop-based pop size ones (docile/unruly, governor bonuses, planetary ascension benefits) Not necessarily, the defensive-civ empire is likely less in excess of 100 empire size, so the halved penalty might still sting more.
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Dec 23, 2023 14:52
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Do vassals still lose their normal computer player bonuses or did they fix that.
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Dec 23, 2023 15:08
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Do vassals still lose their normal computer player bonuses or did they fix that. we just went through this, yes it is fixed now (vassals get moved 1 step down the difficulty ladder, but as long as you aren't playing on super easy mode, they'll still get bonuses)
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Dec 23, 2023 15:23
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So if I'm having to give my vassals huge subsidies to keep them from imploding, whats the drat point of having vassals in the first place as opposed to having them in a federation? The fact that I can control their votes in the galactic congress?
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Dec 23, 2023 15:33
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Libluini posted:we just went through this, yes it is fixed now (vassals get moved 1 step down the difficulty ladder, but as long as you aren't playing on super easy mode, they'll still get bonuses) Splicer fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Dec 23, 2023 |
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Dec 23, 2023 15:48
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Splicer posted:You have to be on commodore or higher for them to have any bonuses left over. Ensign or lower -> no AI bonuses at all. Captain -> AI has bonuses, vassals have Ensign level bonuses (i.e. none). On Commodore your vassals have Captain bonuses etc etc. Sorry to be unclear, I automatically think of everything below Commodore as easy mode
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Dec 23, 2023 16:30
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I've spent today trying to play Stellaris after a long hiatus and ended up on the verge of a nervous breakdown from information overload and system complexity.
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Dec 24, 2023 04:11
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Rogue AI Goddess posted:I've spent today trying to play Stellaris after a long hiatus and ended up on the verge of a nervous breakdown from information overload and system complexity. Sounds about right, yes.
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Dec 24, 2023 13:48
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The only time I’ve ever really seen my vassals thrive is when I directly spin them off myself after making sure that the sector in question is running a large surplus. But even then they do some stupid thing like invade a primitive world and enslave the population who end up rebelling, or they build a bunch of robots who do an uprising. I really wish we had the option to enforce purging or AI bans on our vassals to deal with that.
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Dec 24, 2023 14:54
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Yami Fenrir posted:Sounds about right, yes. Compare it with, say, Civilization. Civ starts off with only a couple of relevant resources to keep track of (food and hammers), and a small number of decision points (where to move your only warrior, what hex to work with your 1-pop city). It gradually introduces new mechanics (happiness, health, faith, great people, diplomacy, government policies, etc.), giving you time and space to master each new tool before adding more stuff into the mix. Just as importantly, it gives me both immediate (more food = visibly faster city growth) and regular ("you are 4th out of 12 civs in terms of culture") feedback on my decisions so that I can learn what works and what doesn't. Stellaris, on other hand, gives me an incomprehensible spreadsheet and expects me to make decisions while doing its best to obfuscate the outcomes. Playing Stellaris as a new or returning player is like being plunged into a nightmare where you have to take an exam on a subject that you've never studied, except all questions are in a foreign language, and instead of a grade you get a passive-aggressive "oh, you know what you did".
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Dec 24, 2023 16:24
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Rogue AI Goddess posted:It's not just the overwhelming amount of blinking lights to track and fiddly knobs to turn that brought me down, it's having to engage with them all from day 1, as well a lack of feedback to help me learn. A friend recommended Stellaris to me about a year ago. Installed it and noped out on the civ selection screen, just way too much going on and not enough time to deal with the steep learning curve. When Star Trek: Infinite dropped a few months ago, I thought it would be a good opportunity to ease my way into "Stellaris" through more tangible jargon I was already familiar with. After about 10 hours of ST:I, I felt like I had the game down and wanted a richer gameplay experience, so went back to Stellaris and am loving it. Nevertheless, I still get to the point often where it's just too much. I have close to 100 hours on Stellaris now and have barely gotten past 2300 on a given playthrough. I'll be in the zone for a few hours, log off for the night, come back a couple days later and...drat, it's just a lot. Pushing through with my current game because I really do want to finish one, just wanted to say as a fellow Civ guy I feel you totally.
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Dec 24, 2023 17:00
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Judgy Fucker posted:I'll be in the zone for a few hours, log off for the night, come back a couple days later and...drat, it's just a lot. I guess it's time once again to preach the glory of Against the Storm.
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Dec 24, 2023 17:13
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Splicer posted:Oh hey it's me. Do preach it. I can just hop in, do a settlement in like 45 minutes, and then move on. We definitely need more rogue-lite city builders/strategy games.
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Dec 24, 2023 19:13
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If my vassals have stability problems and they lose systems to rebellion, just conquer them and release them as a new vassal. Even if you get to the point of border gore and too many vassals to keep them happy, gently caress'em. The only vassals I want loyalty from are those who are specialized, everyone else gets taxed to poo poo, it's not like they'll have the resources to mount an effective rebellion.
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Dec 25, 2023 00:48
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Technical Analysis posted:If my vassals have stability problems and they lose systems to rebellion, just conquer them and release them as a new vassal. Even if you get to the point of border gore and too many vassals to keep them happy, gently caress'em. The only vassals I want loyalty from are those who are specialized, everyone else gets taxed to poo poo, it's not like they'll have the resources to mount an effective rebellion. The point of vassals is having less work tho, not more...?
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Dec 25, 2023 01:32
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well, you also get a malus to loyalty for having too many vassals. So, no thanks for that idea.
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Dec 25, 2023 04:41
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Shared Destiny exists and is very useful for puppeting the entire galaxy. There's just something peaceful about watching 15+ vassal nations worth of fleets raining down on my enemies and not needing to do anything.
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Dec 25, 2023 05:01
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Complications posted:Shared Destiny exists and is very useful for puppeting the entire galaxy. There's just something peaceful about watching 15+ vassal nations worth of fleets raining down on my enemies and not needing to do anything. Yeah, but that only reduces the malus by 1 vassal if I recall correctly.
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Dec 25, 2023 05:04
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Oh yeah, that's new though. The issue existed before the change too though.
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Dec 25, 2023 14:20
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Yeah it used to remove it completely iirc. I've never used vassals enough to know the details.
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Dec 25, 2023 15:31
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ilkhan posted:Yeah it used to remove it completely iirc. I've never used vassals enough to know the details. Correct. any of the relevant features completely removed the multiple vassals penalty. It was as broken as it sounds, really.
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Dec 25, 2023 15:42
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Knights of the Toxic God feels a bit uh... broken with the changes to habitats they did, even doing the tech changes the one event late that lets you turn squires into pop assemblers is insane now that you can make giant rear end habitats, 30 organic pop assembly a month is not a joke I am just saying.
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Dec 27, 2023 05:42
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I did the new rift origin and all these years later it's crazy how an entire evening disappears with this game and some weed.
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Dec 28, 2023 06:12
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is there a fix for this first contact that will not advance and pops up every month bug?
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Dec 28, 2023 10:43
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