Canada Housing/Debt: Trust me, I'm a landlord.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Canada Housing/Debt: Trust me, I'm a landlord.

mila kunis: Jun 10, 2011

I'm not optimistic at all, I think morons like you blaming immigrants for every societal ill is the norm and that trend is going to get worse. Far easier than fixing actual structural issues. I am curious as to which out group you'll scapegoat if immigration is reduced to zero and things still don't improve.

# ? Dec 24, 2023 12:26

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 00:32

RBC: Nov 23, 2007; IM STILL SPENDING MONEY FROM 1888

before it was immigrants it was "asian investors"

# ? Dec 24, 2023 12:39

qhat: Jul 6, 2015

Fwiw lack of Canadian experience is used all over Canada to reject people from jobs even if there�s literally no good reason either safety or otherwise to do so. This happens even for bullshit white collar jobs, even if they�re not doing anything technical. Even for technical roles, terms like �Software Engineer� are technically illegal in all provinces unless licensed with some local pen pushers despite it being the primary job title globally for someone who Engineers Software. Usually not a big deal because noone cares, but Alberta has been particularly belligerent recently about IT companies using it even going so far as to sue companies for using it in job descriptions, and filing injunctions against individuals who use it in their resume. Like there�s no actual substantial reason to be getting in a twist about it, it doesn�t compromise safety anywhere or dilute some made up prestige in the engineer title, it�s just one of the few actual engineering professions where there isn�t an arbitrary stranglehold over fully qualified newcomers, and that makes some people Very Mad.

So basically, gently caress anyone who ludicrously claims that immigrants are causing the problems that could be solved by just letting those same immigrants practice their own profession. We let them in after all, vetted their education, they moved across the world to contribute, and nine times out of ten work harder than Canadian born workers. Give them a test or ramping up training or whatever in cases where it�s absolutely necessary, but most of all stop being racist and get them in the workforce ASAP. Doctors shouldn�t be driving taxis because a small group of idiots in this country can�t see beyond their own thinly veiled narrow minded prejudice of foreign education.

qhat fucked around with this message at 13:34 on Dec 24, 2023

# ? Dec 24, 2023 12:54

MeinPanzer: Dec 20, 2004; anyone who reads Cinema Discusso for anything more than slackjawed trolling will see the shittiness in my posts

mila kunis posted:

Lol, the lengths people will go to to justify our lovely system is crazy. Googling that led to some LinkedIn article by a rando, but let's assume that's true:

1. It's not hard to filter by people who got their degrees from well renowned institutions. Believe it or not, other countries even in the third world have high quality universities that churn out highly skilled and qualified people.
2. There's countries other than India, there's regions other than asia, etc. Pretty big pool of people out there to choose from!
3. Even if you believe Canadian Standards are just Too drat High (lol), there should be a way to train and test people who come into it in a way that doesn't involve them having to restart their entire career and education from scratch and gets them up to speed relatively quickly.

This led me to investigate what is actually required to get a license to practice medicine as a foreign-trained doctor in Canada. It looks like according to the Medical Council of Canada the main requirements are:

quote:

- Have a medical degree from a medical school that, at the time the candidate completed the program, was listed in the World Directory of Medical Schools [which includes 3,800 programs across the globe]
- Are a Licentiate of the Medical Council of Canada [which requires passing the Medical Council of Canada Qualifying Examination (MCCQE) Part I]
- Have satisfactorily completed a discipline-appropriate postgraduate training program in allopathic medicine and an evaluation by a recognized authority
- Have achieved certification from the College of Family Physicians of Canada or the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada or the Coll�ge des m�decins du Qu�bec.

So immigrants with legitimate medical degrees absolutely don't need to "restart their entire career and education from scratch" to practice in Canada.

# ? Dec 24, 2023 16:52

mila kunis: Jun 10, 2011

I have no idea how those requirements are interpreted, how many viable candidates that screens out and what hoops you have to jump through to get those certifications, but the end result is you absolutely need a restart for the majority of immigrants from medical backgrounds. My family doctor had to, but she was young enough that she thought it was worth the additional time sink. For most others, it isn't.

But I suppose you must be right, there is no shortage of medical personnel in the country, nothing we can do about it even if there was without comprising the World Famous Canadian Standards, and the only reasonable thing is to cut demand instead of expanding supply. Time to go on /r/Canada and scream for deportations whenever anyone with a vaguely foreign sounding name is mentioned on the news.

mila kunis fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Dec 24, 2023

# ? Dec 24, 2023 17:35

MeinPanzer: Dec 20, 2004; anyone who reads Cinema Discusso for anything more than slackjawed trolling will see the shittiness in my posts

mila kunis posted:

I have no idea how those requirements are interpreted and what hoops you have to jump through to get those certifications, but the end result is you absolutely need a restart. My family doctor had to, but she was young enough that she thought it was worth the additional time sink. For most others, it isn't.

Let me counter your anecdote with my own. In my time living in Canada I knew three different foreigners who obtained their medical degrees abroad and then began working in the medical system in Canada without "a restart." They mostly got jobs (two in medical-adjacent industries, the third in an unrelated industry), passed their exams, got experience in practice-ready assessment programs, and began practicing within a few years. You can argue that it's not fair that they have to spend time, money, and effort to go through the process, and I would agree--we should subsidize the process more--but your assessment is wrong.

quote:

But I suppose you must be right, there is no shortage of medical personnel in the country, nothing we can do about it even if there was without comprising the World Famous Canadian Standards, and the only reasonable thing is to cut demand instead of expanding supply. Time to go on /r/Canada and scream for deportations whenever anyone with a vaguely foreign sounding name is mentioned on the news.

The real issue is with Canadian medical schools and residencies artificially limiting admissions, and that needs to be addressed. But cutting back on certifying standards for foreign doctors wanting to practice in Canada is not the right way to do things.

# ? Dec 24, 2023 17:56

tagesschau: Sep 1, 2006; Guten Abend, meine Damen und Herren.

qhat posted:

Fwiw lack of Canadian experience is used all over Canada to reject people from jobs even if there�s literally no good reason either safety or otherwise to do so. This happens even for bullshit white collar jobs, even if they�re not doing anything technical.

I think that fundamentally, this is just another one of the quick ways HR weeds out applications in order to reduce their workload, but there are absolutely parts of the world where credentials are not particularly reflective of someone's actual education or skills. The dumb thing is that they feel they have to treat everything non-Canadian as equally suspect, so Humber is better than Harvard on your r�sum�.

# ? Dec 24, 2023 18:09

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

There is a certain amount of lock-in, and I don't think it's always a horrible thing. If I wanted to work as a pilot in another country, I would have to follow some portions of their licensing process -- not re-do literally everything, but probably write a stack of exams, fly with local instructors, pass a local flight test, etc. A foreign pilot working in Canada would have to do the same thing, and it's not just that we don't trust furriners, it's to make sure that everyone has the same baseline competence and understanding of national laws and practices. There's a discussion to be had about how onerous that process ought to be, and if it's sufficiently available to qualified immigrants in a timely fashion, but I don't think the solution is to get rid of it entirely.

# ? Dec 24, 2023 18:54

Truman Peyote: Oct 11, 2006

immigrants, especially international students, tend to be younger than the general population, so if we�re going to blame a group for lengthening healthcare wait times, it would make more sense to blame all these goddamn elderly white people

# ? Dec 24, 2023 19:46

Lead out in cuffs: Sep 18, 2012; "That's right. We've evolved."

"I can see that. Cool mutations."

MeinPanzer posted:

Let me counter your anecdote with my own. In my time living in Canada I knew three different foreigners who obtained their medical degrees abroad and then began working in the medical system in Canada without "a restart." They mostly got jobs (two in medical-adjacent industries, the third in an unrelated industry), passed their exams, got experience in practice-ready assessment programs, and began practicing within a few years. You can argue that it's not fair that they have to spend time, money, and effort to go through the process, and I would agree--we should subsidize the process more--but your assessment is wrong.

The real issue is with Canadian medical schools and residencies artificially limiting admissions, and that needs to be addressed. But cutting back on certifying standards for foreign doctors wanting to practice in Canada is not the right way to do things.

TBF "a few years" is the duration of med school, so it kinda is a complete restart?

Not disagreeing about the artificially limited admissions though.

# ? Dec 24, 2023 22:33

COPE 27: Sep 11, 2006

I think everything from medical school seats to foreign credentials is bottlenecked at the number of supervising physicians so let's just not do anything about that lol

# ? Dec 25, 2023 01:24

COPE 27: Sep 11, 2006

Neoliberals would literally prefer 10 years of shortages to 1 year of theoretical excess supply that would be used up before it even went online so gently caress you sick people

# ? Dec 25, 2023 01:25

Femtosecond: Aug 2, 2003

Seems like the Federal government is slowly realizing ~~that there's a problem~~ they're down 12 points in the polls.

quote:

Immigration Minister to �rein in� number of temporary foreign workers coming into Canada in 2024

Immigration Minister Marc Miller says he plans to control the number of temporary foreign workers coming to Canada in the new year, adding the system has �run a bit rampant for far too long.�

Mr. Miller said there is a correlation between the influx of international students and temporary workers and the housing shortage in this country.

The number of people here temporarily has �skyrocketed� over the past few years, Mr. Miller told reporters Thursday. His remarks came after a Statistics Canada release this week showed the country�s population grew by more than 430,000 during the third quarter of 2023, the fastest population growth in any quarter since 1957.

Statscan estimates Canada�s population is more than 40.5 million, with the third-quarter increase driven largely by immigration, including about 313,000 non-permanent residents. Most of the non-permanent residents came to Canada on work or study permits.

Mr. Miller said the issues of housing and an influx of temporary residents have been �increasingly tied together and there is obviously a correlation.� He said he is planning to announce reforms to tackle the influx at the start of 2024.

�I�m not trying to target individuals,� he said. �I�m trying to target the effect of a system that�s run a bit rampant for far too long and is causing an impact that is not unappreciable.�

His admission that the number of temporary foreign residents is linked to the supply of housing represents a shift in emphasis for the federal government.

�It�s clear that that does put pressure on the system and particularly our housing needs,� he said.

Temporary foreign residents enter Canada through various routes, including as international students, who then gain postgraduate work permits to stay on, or as temporary agricultural workers. Ukrainians fleeing war also fall under that category.

Earlier this month Mr. Miller announced reforms to the international student program to curb numbers � including the doubling of the amount of money applicants need to show they have to cover living expenses.

He said he plans to demand that provinces, such as Ontario, stop licensing substandard colleges offering a poor experience to international students and said he may consider refusing study permits if they do not clamp down on colleges churning out international graduates like �puppy mills.�

�As I�ve said, turning off the tap from the federal government is a pretty rough instrument and if provinces can�t get their houses in order we�re prepared to do it,� he said Thursday.

He said he is planning �further steps� to curb the numbers of foreign students in the new year.

He signalled that he may reform the postgraduate work permit system for international students, as well as the temporary foreign workers program.

�Both represent increased volume that we�ve seen jump astronomically in the last few years, even when you net out the period during COVID,� he said.

�It�s something that has created some unanticipated effects and something we need to rein in. I�m prepared to do it. The government is prepared to do it, but it�s got to come with some serious conversations with the affected jurisdictions to ensure they�re doing their jobs as well.�

IMO the big problem here isn't the raw numbers of immigrants but the obvious exploitation. These obscure Ontario colleges are bringing in poo poo tons of people on a false promise that Canada needs more Hotel Management Certificate holders, and these newcomers are faced with a reality of working a garbage job and sleeping on a cot with 5 others to a room. Not clear to me whether these immigrants know what they're getting into, and happy to suffer these conditions for a chance at citizenship, or if they're being completely and utterly scammed.

In any case, what the Feds and Province need to do here is go after the college, and go after a hyper capitalist education system that is effectively selling lotto tickets for permanent residency.

IMO we should still be bringing in these folks, but it should be under conditions where they're not being exploited by colleges and landlords.

# ? Dec 25, 2023 01:52

Arivia: Mar 17, 2011

do you need a hotel management certificate to operate an airbnb because if so the colleges might be right

# ? Dec 25, 2023 02:56

a primate: Jun 2, 2010

The last time I had a Canadian-trained doctor was when I was a kid. Since then, they�ve been from India, Nigeria, the UK, etc.

I thought our lack of docs was due to Canadian-trained physicians absconding to the US for more money, not from a lack of immigrant docs qualifying. Some nurses I know say this is a problem across the healthcare profession in general. I only have anecdotes to go on.

# ? Dec 25, 2023 03:26

a primate: Jun 2, 2010

Femtosecond posted:

Seems like the Federal government is slowly realizing ~~that there's a problem~~ they're down 12 points in the polls.

IMO the big problem here isn't the raw numbers of immigrants but the obvious exploitation. These obscure Ontario colleges are bringing in poo poo tons of people on a false promise that Canada needs more Hotel Management Certificate holders, and these newcomers are faced with a reality of working a garbage job and sleeping on a cot with 5 others to a room. Not clear to me whether these immigrants know what they're getting into, and happy to suffer these conditions for a chance at citizenship, or if they're being completely and utterly scammed.

In any case, what the Feds and Province need to do here is go after the college, and go after a hyper capitalist education system that is effectively selling lotto tickets for permanent residency.

IMO we should still be bringing in these folks, but it should be under conditions where they're not being exploited by colleges and landlords.

More anecdotes on my part, but recent immigrants I know (arrived here in the past 5 years) absolutely know they�re in for a poo poo time, at least in the beginning. It�s what�s making Canada less of an attractive destination for many back home. I know a few Indian guys who were well qualified but took security jobs and under the table jobs to support themselves while taking college courses to fulfil their student visa. The intention was to use it as a path to immigration, and luckily it worked out for them. But not before we exacted some low-end labour and charged them exorbitant fees to re-do some college level qualifications at sometimes respectable and sometimes not-so-respectable colleges. It�s just a way to get TFWs while making them pay into the college system.

# ? Dec 25, 2023 03:33

Lead out in cuffs: Sep 18, 2012; "That's right. We've evolved."

"I can see that. Cool mutations."

a primate posted:

The last time I had a Canadian-trained doctor was when I was a kid. Since then, they’ve been from India, Nigeria, the UK, etc.

I thought our lack of docs was due to Canadian-trained physicians absconding to the US for more money, not from a lack of immigrant docs qualifying. Some nurses I know say this is a problem across the healthcare profession in general. I only have anecdotes to go on.

IIRC there's also a trend amongst doctors towards "having a life" and "actually seeing their kids" which is also decreasing the supply because they aren't willing to work the insane hours anymore (and are happy with the pay cut that comes with that). Like it's not the whole picture, but it's part of it.

# ? Dec 25, 2023 04:01

COPE 27: Sep 11, 2006

Lead out in cuffs posted:

IIRC there's also a trend amongst doctors towards "having a life" and "actually seeing their kids"

nO oNE wanTs tO WOrk anYmOrE

# ? Dec 25, 2023 04:27

linoleum floors: Mar 25, 2012; Please. Let me tell you all about how you're all idiots. I am of superior intellect here. Go suck some dicks. You have all fucking stupid opinions. This is my fucking opinion.

COPE 27 posted:

Neoliberals would literally prefer 10 years of shortages to 1 year of theoretical excess supply that would be used up before it even went online so gently caress you sick people

This is the game because the less doctors there are the less money you spend on health care.

Let's be real doctors are also into this because they can make more money individually and they are business people as well.

They'd much rather the payment schedule increase than the number of doctors.

# ? Dec 25, 2023 13:22

a primate: Jun 2, 2010

linoleum floors posted:

This is the game because the less doctors there are the less money you spend on health care.

Let's be real doctors are also into this because they can make more money individually and they are business people as well.

They'd much rather the payment schedule increase than the number of doctors.

Cuts are also probably exerting pressure to hike service fees. My family doctor clinic is now charging $25 per faxed prescription, as these are no longer covered by OHIP. So if you need prescription renewals, you�re now paying the clinic out of pocket.

# ? Dec 26, 2023 01:14

unknown: Nov 16, 2002; Ain't got no stinking title yet!

a primate posted:

I thought our lack of docs was due to Canadian-trained physicians absconding to the US for more money, not from a lack of immigrant docs qualifying. Some nurses I know say this is a problem across the healthcare profession in general. I only have anecdotes to go on.

Friend in the medical nursing profession was lamenting how they had real offers of $300k+USD, albeit for the no-personal life in the states (mostly southern) where you end up bouncing between hospitals/cities (hence the no life).

If he hadnt put down roots here (kid) he'd be doing that now and know a couple of others that have already. A few years of that and that's a hell of a nest egg to have by the time you're 30.

# ? Dec 26, 2023 04:27

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

unknown posted:

Friend in the medical nursing profession was lamenting how they had real offers of $300k+USD, albeit for the no-personal life in the states (mostly southern) where you end up bouncing between hospitals/cities (hence the no life).

If he hadnt put down roots here (kid) he'd be doing that now and know a couple of others that have already. A few years of that and that's a hell of a nest egg to have by the time you're 30.

New Guy at work used to coordinate medical treatment to get pilots back to medical fitness at a major Canadian airline, and the stories he told about the actual mechanics of getting that done within the Canadian system (or... outside it, when the company deemed it worthwhile), and the bullshit he saw with positions being filled on high-pay contracts to avoid slotting something into the "salaried" column, made me deeply concerned about the state of our system.

Now, to be clear, I am still in favour of a single-payer system where money doesn't influence quality of care. But I think we need and deserve a system that provides the necessary care (and not just for life-threatening issues) in an efficient manner. Our system is, on the whole, preferable to what they have in the US, but it's a gently caress sight from "good" and it's about time we start getting pissed off about that.

# ? Dec 26, 2023 04:37

Femtosecond: Aug 2, 2003

I wonder if maybe just maybe, the reason why the ban on foreign buyers hasn't made homes more affordable is because foreign buyers wasn't actually a real problem? No that can't be it. Better do a round of quotes from the usual demand sider crackpots.

(Shocked that this isn't a Kerry Gold article. Kerry Gold watch out! Someone is after your gimmick!)

quote:

Why Canada's ban on foreign buyers hasn't made homes more affordable
A year after it was introduced, the foreign buyers ban hasn't helped lower home prices, critics say

Kris Wallace and Andy Ali of Vancouver say their search for a larger condo to give their family more room has been frustrating. Real estate and rental costs in the city are so high that their 26-year-old daughter is still living with them and they're all feeling the squeeze.

A year ago, the federal government instituted a foreign buyer ban after passing the Prohibition on the Purchase of Residential Property by Non-Canadians Act in 2022. The two-year ban, which came into effect on Jan. 1, barred non-citizens, non-permanent residents and foreign-controlled companies from buying up Canadian property as an investment.

But Wallace says that ban didn't do much for her family.

"There's all of these very luxurious buildings going in all around us that are outrageously priced," said Wallace, after attending an open house at a promising $1.1-million condo. "The foreign buyers tax � I don't think that's making an iota of difference."

Critics say the foreign buyers ban, which was aimed at making housing affordable for Canadians, had many exemptions and was more of a political manoeuvre. They say it's clear housing remains out of reach for too many in Canada, and that the country should look to other places in the world to find strategies to foster home ownership.

Housing affordability is a key focus for the Liberals in their 2022 federal budget, with promises of a ban on some foreign buyers for two years and billions of dollars to help first-time home buyers get into the market.

Though Housing Minister Sean Fraser's office declined an interview request, his spokesperson said the government had worked with cities across the country to help "over 250,000 new homes get built over the next decade." Earlier this month, the government announced a deal with Vancouver � $115 million to fast track the building of 40,000 homes in coming years.

In an email, the Canadian Mortgage and Housing Corporation (CMHC) said 2023 data from the Canadian Housing Statistics Program is not yet available to determine the ban's full effect.

The CMHC said Ottawa is "working to ensure every Canadian � has an affordable place to call home," citing moves to forgive GST from newly constructed rental units, $20-billion in apartment financing and other initiatives.

In Vancouver late last month, Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland said the ban "is making a difference" by preserving housing where people can live. Earlier in November, Conservative Leader Pierre Poilievre said that rather than helping to make housing affordable, the government's policies have instead "made the problem worse."

The housing minister acknowledged the housing crunch earlier this month, but challenged Poilievre's strategy. "He seems content to tap into the anxiety of Canadians without putting forward a plan that's actually going to help them," said Fraser.

CMHC data reveals that only two per cent of real estate purchases in 2021 were made by non-Canadians, according to communications obtained by Global News through Access to Information.

A few months after the ban was put into place more exemptions were added. These included students, first-time buyers and properties under $500,000.

"There were so many exemptions to the foreign buyer ban that it really didn't make any difference at all," said Tim Sabitov of Team 3000 Realty Ltd., in Vancouver.

Any impacts of the ban were short-lived, according to Brendon Ogmundson, the chief economist for the B.C. Real Estate Association. "The foreign buyer ban was more political than economic policy or housing policy," he said.

This year, Toronto's market has softened, but the average home price is still $1.1-million � and the typical price of a home in Vancouver was $1.2-million in September, according to data from the Toronto Regional Real Estate Board (TRREB) and the Canadian Real Estate Association (CREA).

Even as Canadian home sales fell off in October, the average sale price rose 1.8 per cent that month, compared to the same period in 2022, according to the CREA. It was up 5.8 per cent in Vancouver, with the benchmark price for a detached home rising to $2,001,400, according to the Real Estate Board of Greater Vancouver (REBGV).

In 2016, B.C. introduced speculation and vacancy or empty homes taxes. Ontario followed the next year. These taxes were applied to high-demand areas to discourage people from buying property as an investment.

Thomas Davidoff, an associate professor at the University of British Columbia's Sauder School of Business, and UBC PhD student Keling Zheng studied the effect of foreign buyer taxes in B.C. and Toronto and found they resulted in an initial drop in the price of housing that soon levelled off.

The city of Vancouver says CMHC data showed that speculation taxes helped cool the market and convert vacant properties into long-term rentals between 2017 and 2021.

Based on that success, B.C. has expanded the speculation tax program to 59 municipalities and the federal government is adopting many provincial policies encouraging transit-oriented and multi-unit developments, according to B.C.'s housing minister Ravi Kahlon.

"The federal housing minister just recently went to Toronto Council and said, 'Adopt what British Columbia is doing,' " Kahlon told CBC in Victoria on Nov. 30.

"We're not waiting for the federal government. We're taking action here already."

According to Davidoff, high-end home prices did plummet initially after the foreign buyers ban � but he says the real driver was soaring interest rates that triggered an economic slowdown.

"The most affordable products actually rose in price for whatever reasons after the foreign buyer tax."

He says he's not sure focusing only on foreign buyers helps make things more affordable and believes the focus should be on how a property is used � not who owns it.

Mike Stewart, a realtor with Vancouver New Condos, says "the ban was maybe a way for certain federal politicians to do better at the next election as opposed to trying to help housing affordability."

Those who do advocate for taxes and bans say they need to be tougher to work.

"Canada's ban was full of holes," said Andy Yan, director of the City Program, a continuing education program focusing on urban planning and development at Simon Fraser University. "I would tell people it was more like cheesecloth than duct tape."

Yan says places like Hong Kong and Singapore use much higher taxes and rigid buyer restrictions to cool prices.

The foreign buyer ban came long after speculation taxes already discouraged non-resident property investors in B.C., he and other housing experts note. And the country has other problems.

Stagnant wages, a lack of affordable housing stock and a legacy of attracting global property investors due to weak regulations all feed the affordability problem, according to David Ley, author of Housing Booms in Gateway Cities.

The retired UBC urban geography professor says Canada could learn from success stories like Singapore, which boasted one of the highest home ownership rates in the world in 2022 at 89 per cent.

"Singapore has solved its housing question. Now, how many cities in the world could we say that of?" asked Ley.

He credits Singapore's success to aggressive speculation taxes � 60 per cent compared to B.C.'s 25 per cent � and the use of those taxes to create robust public housing stocks.

Singapore's housing is 80 per cent public, compared to Canada's, which sits closer to six per cent.

Ley says Singapore controls "investor play" in the housing market "so there is opportunity for local buyers to be successful."

Back in Vancouver, Wallace and Ali are still hunting for a condo, for they say many are priced too high, especially given today's interest rates.

"Most of the building owners seem financially able to sit tight and wait. Which is frustrating for buyers," said Wallace.

Amazing how Andy Yan can vaguely assert that the ban is "full of holes" and get his quote in the paper despite expressing no real evidence of any holes. Thanks Canadian Journalism.

Let's have a look at these troubling exemptions.

quote:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-ban-non-resident-buyers-exemptions-1.6693875
Exemptions from the ban include:
Canadian citizens and permanent residents.

International students who meet certain requirements, including having spent the bulk of the previous five years in Canada. They would be able to purchase a property for no more than $500,000.

Workers who have worked and filed tax returns in Canada for at least three out of the four years prior to purchasing a property.

Diplomats, consular staff and members of international organizations living in Canada.

Foreign nationals with temporary resident status, including people fleeing conflict, and refugees.

Oh yeah boy those students buying those sub $500k properties certainly are having a big impact! Oh wait there's nothing for sale below $500k.

Reality is that the BC and Ontario speculation tax killed foreign buyers long long ago. The reason the ban "isn't working" is because there was already nil foreign buyers left.

Femtosecond fucked around with this message at 06:22 on Dec 29, 2023

# ? Dec 29, 2023 02:59

Risky Bisquick: Jan 18, 2008; PLEASE LET ME WRITE YOUR VICTIM IMPACT STATEMENT SO I CAN FURTHER DEMONSTRATE THE CALAMITY THAT IS OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM.; Buglord

Scale back the million a year immigration (start at half total, all categories and adjust)

Stop the lifetime primary residence tax exemption, make it one time only, tax all house sales at 25% for individuals, corporations at 50%

Use the house sales tax revenue to build public housing. Integrate these projects into all areas, gently caress the nimbys. Park one of these in rosedale, the beaches, lakeshore in Oakville, Mississauga road, and across the street from Drakes mansion

We need to take drastic steps like right fuckin� yesterday.

# ? Dec 29, 2023 03:38

Femtosecond: Aug 2, 2003

Interesting focus in this oped from the Globe. It's the planning and the planners that are the cause for why the ultra exclusive wealthy neighbourhood of Shaughnessy remains frozen in amber. The notion that maybe just maybe the political process has been influenced by the enormously wealthy and powerful residents of this neighbourhood is not considered.

I don't really disagree here with the notion that our planning is very bad, but seems like their identification of the core problem is quite a bit downstream of the actual causes.

I dunno, I haven't worked in planning before, but seems unlikely to me that some wage slave middle class urban planner gives that much of a poo poo for protecting Shaughnessy with exclusive zoning. Seems more likely that their bosses on council told them that's what they wanted to see. Maybe I'm wrong! Maybe the old boomer planners that made these decisions really are that brain damaged. Would be surprising to me though.

quote:

Cities need (a lot less) planning

The Vancouver enclave of Shaughnessy, established in the early 20th century, is perched on a hill near downtown. It is similar to neighbourhoods in other Canadian cities, centrally located and specifically planned to house relatively few people on prime civic real estate.

Such city planning defined the last century across Canada: using a lot of land for a small number of people. Apartment buildings were widely prohibited. This was all orchestrated at city halls. Planning garnered a false air of science for what were arbitrary decisions � enforced by rigid regulations. Shaughnessy exemplifies the many ways planning has gone wrong. Over the past four decades, the neighbourhood�s population plummeted 20 per cent even as the City of Vancouver�s surged more than 50 per cent.

The failings of planning became clear in recent years but policy change is only now starting to emerge. In the past year, the crush of high prices to buy and rent finally pushed politicians, from reluctant city councils to provincial and federal leaders, to start to rewrite old rules. Yet areas ideal for new homes, such as Shaughnessy, remained shielded from change.

What cities need is a lot less planning.

Consider Alain Bertaud, himself an urban planner whose work focuses on urban economics. Planning, he says, is �based on the illusion that a city is a complex building that needs to be designed in advance by competent professionals.� Mr. Bertaud, who gave a lecture in Vancouver in September, declares the strict zoning planners loved for so long to be �obsolete.� His main argument is the proof everyone can see. Planning has led to a foolish allocation of a scarce supply of land.

It�s also grossly unfair. In Vancouver, about one-third of households occupy four-fifths of the residential land. Everyone else is squeezed into small parcels. City councils and planners have also intentionally consigned taller buildings to the noise of heavily trafficked streets to protect neighbourhoods of detached homes.

Less planning doesn�t equate to no planning. Governments need to co-ordinate infrastructure. Sewers have to be modernized and expanded � something planners failed to adequately plan for. Governments also need to plan for better transit, so people can more easily move around cities.

These are the pillars of planning Mr. Bertaud endorses, because he views, perhaps too clinically, cities as labour markets. Cities thrive when people are able to flock to them to work. �The larger the market,� Mr. Bertaud asserts, �the more innovative and productive the city will be.�

And interesting. Big, vibrant cities pulse with energy. These are the kind of city streets Jane Jacobs fought for. Cities that thrive with life (and, yes, some disarray) are the cities most widely celebrated.

The high price of housing, as this space has long argued, is a major impediment to a city�s economic, cultural and social potential: Keeping people away undermines what a city can become. Those high costs in Canada exist in part because supply of housing has long been restricted. If rules were looser, there is no way that people would universally deem the best use of a central neighbourhood to be a bunch of large homes that each house only a couple of people.

As Mr. Bertaud puts it, households and businesses should not be prevented from locating in an area because of regulations or a perceived lack of space. Costs should also be reasonable, so individuals, families or businesses can move �when their circumstances change.�

It�s all a little technical but it�s about the idea of a city as a living, breathing entity, one that is amorphous and always evolving. Cities are human. They shouldn�t be overly managed and in part suffocated by rigid concepts of how cities should be, rather than more simply allowing them to be.

Political leaders and communities need to be bold in change and resist siren songs such as claims of �neighbourhood character.� Some may venerate Shaughnessy�s quiet and leafy streets but ignore the character of Shaughnessy in 1908, when the forest was razed to make way for houses. It�s also claimed the land in places like Shaughnessy is too expensive to redevelop. That�s not true either. A recent analysis showed that 17 large houses were for sale at prices that could lead to 800 rental homes.

If only city council and planners didn�t explicitly prevent it.

So the apparent core problem here is the civil servants that have gotten in there and messed things up so as to protect their comfortable jobs. The implied solution then is to get rid of the planners, cut the civil service etc. Then everything will be fixed. All in all a pretty comfy ideological position for the right of centre Globe and Mail.

Maybe it's the right move, but if planners are simply doing as they're told by council, well then the the real problem here was that Shaughnessy residents took over political influence over the city to their advantage, and that is going to happen again and again so long as one does nothing to prevent it. Removing the planners is largely irrelevant and Shaughnessy will find some other way to protect itself.

# ? Dec 30, 2023 23:07

Precambrian Video Games: Aug 19, 2002

I saw a bus shelter ad urging people to file their vacant home tax declarations so I can only assume that the problem, if any, is now solved.

# ? Dec 30, 2023 23:32

sitchensis: Mar 4, 2009

I�m quite fond of saying that the planning profession is where Marxists go to die, because it seems (from initial blush) that reforming urban planning will finally usher in an equitable, just society, but then you actually work in the field and discover that, as a professional, your decisions aren�t really yours and still, as always, inevitably, bend to the will of the wealthy and corrupt.

# ? Dec 30, 2023 23:51

Hubbert: Mar 25, 2007; At a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

sitchensis posted:

I�m quite fond of saying that the planning profession is where Marxists go to die, because it seems (from initial blush) that reforming urban planning will finally usher in an equitable, just society, but then you actually work in the field and discover that, as a professional, your decisions aren�t really yours and still, as always, inevitably, bend to the will of the wealthy and corrupt.

# ? Dec 30, 2023 23:53

Hubbert: Mar 25, 2007; At a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

WILL NO ONE RID ME OF THESE BURDENSOME AND TYRANNICAL URBAN PLANNERS WHO WILL NOT ALLOW ME TO DO WHAT I WANT, AND WILL ONLY OBEY THE WHIMS OF AN ELECTED COUNCIL?

SURELY IF WE JUST PUT IT TO A VOTE AND IGNORED THESE SO-CALLED "TECHNOCRATS", WE WOULD FINALLY BE ABLE TO --

hmm strange why is this happening :thunk:

AH, BUT THE PLANNERS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR DEVALUING THESE PROPERTIES!

THE ENEMY IS HERE, AND THE COURTS UPHELD THIS DEVIOUS HERITAGE CONSERVATION AREA DESIGNATION! CURSES!

WAIT, WHAT DO YOU MEAN THAT THE HCA DOESN'T INHIBIT INCREASED DENSITY? WHAT DO YOU MEAN THAT THIS NEIGHBOURHOOD HAS A LONG HISTORY OF MULTIPLE DWELLINGS (INCLUDING CONVERSIONS) IN THE 1930s AND 1940s?! I THOUGHT THE HERITAGE RULES WOULD STOP THIS! WHY, I'M GOING TO COMPLAIN TO COUNCIL RIGHT NOW AN--

oh looks like the province already thought of this too with bill 44

in conclusion, the G&M article is hot loving garbage and by god do i love D&D

# ? Dec 31, 2023 00:23

Femtosecond: Aug 2, 2003

lol I completely forgot about the recent vote. lmao that makes the reality of the situation all the more explicit.

# ? Dec 31, 2023 01:51

qhat: Jul 6, 2015

Imagine if people that believe that equality should be equity get any position in government

# ? Dec 31, 2023 04:15

sleep with the vicious: Apr 2, 2010

2013
2014
2015
2016
2017
2018
2019
2020
2021
2022
2023
2024: this is our year, Canada housing bubble thread. Prayers up

# ? Jan 2, 2024 02:16

large hands: Jan 24, 2006

How'd everyone's new BC assessment look? We're down 6%

# ? Jan 2, 2024 03:26

Baronjutter: Dec 31, 2007; "Tiny Trains"

Victoria down on average but I'm up 70k. Taxes will be fun

# ? Jan 2, 2024 03:41

Scorchy: Jul 15, 2006; Smug Statement: Elementary, my dear meatbag.

South False Creek condo, down 5%

# ? Jan 2, 2024 05:15

kaom: Jan 20, 2007

2022: townhouse purchased at assessed value (rates going up let us offer �low�)
2023: +15%
2024: -14%

We bought this place for 40% more than the POs did and it�s not all that old lol.

# ? Jan 2, 2024 05:38

Guest2553: Aug 3, 2012

2024: still a rentailure

# ? Jan 2, 2024 07:03

Typo: Aug 19, 2009; Chernigov Military Aviation Lyceum
The Fighting Slowpokes

I mean obvsly we are gonna have to see

but antedentolly the condos I've being looking at have all being selling below asking price

some of the "sold" are showing that they are selling for 5-10% above 2019 prices

# ? Jan 2, 2024 07:05

Precambrian Video Games: Aug 19, 2002

sleep with the vicious posted:

2013
2014
2015
2016
2017
2018
2019
2020
2021
2022
2023
2024: this is our year, Canada housing bubble thread. Prayers up

Well, on that note, TorStar had an article that George Brown is considering building staff housing. Which is great and all, but I didn't get past the second paragraph or so where it emphasized the considering part.

On the other hand, the NYT has gotten on the "colleges recruiting too many international students" article craze with this article on Northern College, Timmins, recruiting mainly from India. I'll just quote the more relevant parts:

quote:

Public colleges and universities, hit hard by budget cuts, have grown dependent on the higher tuitions international students must pay. For students from abroad, the institutions can be a conduit to permanent Canadian residence, and for Canada, the students help reduce labor shortages and increase the country�s flagging productivity.

More than 60 percent of foreign students in Ontario�s public colleges are from India � a dependence that the province�s auditor general identified as a risk to the schools� long-term survival.

As a result, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau�s accusations in September that the Indian government was involved in the killing of a Canadian Sikh separatist near Vancouver sent tremors through Ontario�s educational institutions.

The episode has strained relations between Canada and India, which categorically denied any involvement and forced out 41 Canadian diplomats.

At Northern College � where Indians make up 96 percent of all foreign students � officials said they would intensify efforts to recruit more students from Africa and Indonesia to reduce their dependence on India.

�We don�t want all our eggs in one basket,� said Audrey Penner, the college�s president, adding that if the tensions between India and Canada persisted, �our market might dry up regardless of any efforts that we take.�

It shouldn't matter exactly where international students come from, but it kind of gives up the game for the college president to call it a market and also drat, 96%?

quote:

Founded in 1967, Northern, like other public colleges in Ontario, was established to develop a work force suitable for its region. That meant training young people to work in mining, technology and health care.

Before Northern College looked overseas, its student population peaked a quarter-century ago at about 2,000, Dr. Penner said, but declining regional birthrates and migration to bigger cities pushed enrollment down to about 1,300 a decade ago. At the same time, Northern and other colleges began facing cuts in government funding and tuition freezes.

...

At Northern College, there were 40 international students in 2014 � now it has 6,140. Enrollment got a further boost after Northern, like other remote public colleges, opened a campus by partnering with a private college in a Toronto suburb in 2015. Today, about one-third of Northern�s foreign students are in Timmins and at three other smaller northern campuses, while the rest are on the Toronto campus.

I've never heard of this college before but apparently it's gone from a place to train people to literally work in mines (and supporting businesses/industries) to partnering with a private college in the GTA to do ???, although I can't find anything about a campus anywhere near the GTA on their website.

quote:

Arbaz Khan, 25, said he was not only the first member of his family, but the first Muslim in his village in Gujarat to study in Canada. Because his family owned farmland and his father was a politician, he was able to secure a bank loan of about 30,000 Canadian dollars, or about $22,500, for part of his tuition and other costs to study at Northern.

�I want to live my life independently,� said Mr. Khan, who is majoring in business administration. �I want to make my own empire with own hands and my own legs. That�s why I chose to go abroad.�

Annual tuition varies by major, but for foreign students, it is generally around 16,000 Canadian dollars, about four and a half times what Canadian students pay.

Some Indian students were reluctant at first to study at such a remote location.

Maninderjit Kaur said she would probably not have gone to Timmins if the education consultant in India � who arranged her enrollment at Northern � had told her the school�s exact location.

She recalled landing at the airport in Toronto in 2018, and then hopping into an Uber, believing that Northern College was nearby. The eight-hour ride cost 800 Canadian dollars.

�I was sitting in the car, and Timmins never came,� Ms. Kaur, 25, said, recalling the drive through endless forests with no cellphone service. �I�m scared they�re taking me somewhere else.�

Now, Ms. Kaur works in marketing at the college and owns a gas station in town with her fianc�, Karanveer Singh, 28, who also came from India to study at Northern.

Alright uhh working backwards - I guess this is a success story because the couple still lives in Timmins and runs a Small Business. Fine. Recruiting people to live and work in remote communities has long been a challenge, and hell Quebec consistently struggled to the point where they invented the Immigrant Investor Program (assuming they were originally genuinely interested in using it to boost immigration before pivoting to using it to generate revenue).

I can totally believe that recruiters in India are misleading potential students about the circumstances of going to this college and living in Timmins. I can also believe people plonking down $30k to go to an English-speaking college somewhere, despite any warning flags. I have trouble believing that you can book an Uber to travel 8 hours without having any idea where your destination is, although amusingly, I tried booking one for Timmins just now and the only option was an electric vehicle (with a 700km range, yeah sure). The irony of Kaur working in marketing at the college is not lost on me.

quote:

A snapshot of some of Northern�s Indian students offers a window into how they could change Timmins.

Harmandeep Kaur, 22, is studying to become a police officer. She had left India, she said, �to live my life as I want to.�

She saw herself settling down in Timmins with her own family. She is fine with an �arranged or love marriage� as long as her husband accepts a police officer�s irregular hours.

�If he has plans to go out on a weekend and I have to do my job, he has to understand that,� Ms. Kaur said.

Early childhood education is a popular major among international students because of the high demand for related jobs in the region, said Erin Holmes, who oversees the program at Northern. Dozens of international students are immediately hired after graduating, allowing them to apply for permanent residence, Ms. Holmes said.

�We�re just desperate,� said Ms. Holmes, as six students � one Canadian and five Indians � took care of a group of toddlers who had come to visit a Northern classroom.

Ms. Holmes had once worried about the survivability of her program, but its enrollment is now at capacity.

Early childhood education, cool, police, hmmmmmmmm.

quote:

Across Canada, the influx of foreign students has been so great that it is blamed for worsening housing shortages. The Canadian government has recently taken measures to stem the increase, including by doubling the level of savings international students must prove they have.

At Northern, the college revoked the admissions of several hundred international students this year after realizing that the city of Timmins lacked housing, Dr. Penner said.

Jobs to help pay for college have also been a challenge. International students are allowed to work up to 20 hours a week off campus while studying.

But in Timmins, a city of 42,000 people, too many foreign students compete for a limited number of positions at the Canadian and American chains where they typically find jobs, many Indian students said. Many have had to dip into their savings or ask their parents for money, they said.

�I have seen many students who have been here four to five months, or even eight months, but they haven�t gotten jobs yet,� said Mandeep Kaur, 23, a student who dropped by the Sikh temple for prayers. �They get depressed.�

Still, if students ultimately get permanent residence, she said, �then I think it�s worth it.�

So yeah, this just emphasizes that despite ostensibly being a public school, this is practically a predatory private college with little concern for their students' welfare. If Wikipedia is to be believed, this college had ~2k full time and ~15k part time/continuing education students as of 2020, so the part time students are going to have as much motivation to work and more time to do it.

# ? Jan 2, 2024 07:58

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# ? Jun 3, 2024 00:32

Nairbo: Jan 2, 2005

Typo posted:

I mean obvsly we are gonna have to see

but antedentolly the condos I've being looking at have all being selling below asking price

some of the "sold" are showing that they are selling for 5-10% above 2019 prices

Tough to be making any predictions but there�s a whole lot of condos with cancelled listings over November and December, presumably to be listed in the �spring market� which starts in a few weeks. That, plus the large amount of projects completing in 2024, and tepid incomes vs the asking prices? Even with a potential single .25 cut by June, it�s possibly going to be a bloodbath of supply in the condo market this year -. I�d be surprised if condo prices in Vancouver don�t end up 20% below 2019 levels. Especially the 1BR/studio �luxury� shitboxes coming from Airbnb hosts looking to get out.

Nairbo fucked around with this message at 08:35 on Jan 2, 2024

# ? Jan 2, 2024 08:33

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Canada Housing/Debt: Trust me, I'm a landlord.

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