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The EU is forever hosed by the germans
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Dec 20, 2023 20:28
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His Divine Shadow posted:The EU is forever hosed by the germans
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Dec 20, 2023 20:47
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Blut posted:Yes: Conviction rates don't map to actual crime rates, this graph just reveals that there is a deep-set, systematic racism at work in the Danish state. Blut posted:That aside, I was replying with a graph that illustrates certain demographics are far more statistically likely to commit violent crime, poverty or no. No, you didn't. This would only be true in the magical realm of pure fantasy, where a state convicting you of a crime magically makes you guilty, no matter the facts.
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Dec 20, 2023 21:15
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Libluini posted:Conviction rates don't map to actual crime rates, this graph just reveals that there is a deep-set, systematic racism at work in the Danish state. Oh yes? Can you post the actual nationality based crime rates if they disagree with the above so? Conviction rates are about as reliable a comparative statistic as we're going to get, otherwise. Why isn't the Danish state's deep-set systematic racism working against brown Indian people? Or Indonesians? Or Asian Vietnamese, or black South Africans or Nigerians? Its wilfully dense to pretend theres no posible cultural element when theres a strong shared culture to 8 of the top 9 nationalities, and their rate of offending is sky high compared to other immigrant nationalities. Its clearly far more than race. Particularly when other literal darker skinned skinned immigrants from different regions have crime rates circa 1/20th of the top. Being convicted of a crime is generally regarded as being found guilty of a crime, in the eyes of human civilisation, yes. "A magical realm of pure fantasy" is a funny way of describing 'reality'.
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Dec 21, 2023 00:30
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Blut posted:Oh yes? Can you post the actual nationality based crime rates if they disagree with the above so? What is the shared cultural element?
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Dec 21, 2023 02:18
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Libluini posted:Conviction rates don't map to actual crime rates, this graph just reveals that there is a deep-set, systematic racism at work in the Danish state. Deeply racist societies and cultures would seem incompatible with immigration though.
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Dec 21, 2023 06:46
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Racism is not something that is set at birth and never changes. Tolerance in society waxes and wanes, particularly when one group responds to the deliberate impoverishment of the citizens by pointing not at the government but into the crowd saying "the foreigners are to blame"; then it becomes easy for otherwise live-and-let-live people to direct animosity towards people they didn't dislike days prior.
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Dec 21, 2023 12:05
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mawarannahr posted:What is the shared cultural element? A deeply conservative, heavily religious, culture that impedes integration, promotes awful behaviour towards women, is often heavily anti-semetic, and is regularly violently incompatible with our hard won secular societies. Similar problems would be occurring if Europe was taking in hundreds of thousands of white, hardcore evangelical Christian, gun loving, Trump voters from Alabama every year - its not about race in any way, its the problems of heavily conservative religion based culture. Admitting in 2023 that we now know different cultures assimilate less well into Europe than others isn't racist, its just factual.
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Dec 21, 2023 13:57
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Blut posted:A deeply conservative, heavily religious, culture that impedes integration, promotes awful behaviour towards women, is often heavily anti-semetic, and is regularly violently incompatible with our hard won secular societies. I have never been to ireland, so I will just grant you that those statement are actually true there. I just don't see how declaring that the irish are
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Dec 21, 2023 14:17
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^I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say. This chart is in an article in the FT this week, topically:  This chart also doesn't show Vlaams Belang polling at 26% (#1 largest party) in Belgium, Le Pen who got 41% of the vote in 2022 in France and is odds on favourite to win the next election in 2027 currently, the Sweden Democrats polling at 24% (second largest in the country), Orban in Hungary, PiS in Poland etc. We're rather horrifingly on track to have far right governments dominating the contintent this decade if things don't change.
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Dec 23, 2023 14:06
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Tesseraction posted:Racism is not something that is set at birth and never changes. Tolerance in society waxes and wanes, particularly when one group responds to the deliberate impoverishment of the citizens by pointing not at the government but into the crowd saying "the foreigners are to blame"; then it becomes easy for otherwise live-and-let-live people to direct animosity towards people they didn't dislike days prior. I've been living here for 40+ years and anecdotally society seems to pretty consistently be getting more hostile to immigration. Election results and government policies across the continent appear to support that. If the mechanism you describe is responsible then we're in a situation where society will be getting more racist. Leftists seem incapable of getting into positions of power so the impoverishment of our citizens will continue and the reactionary far-right racist/nazi contingent will continue to blame immigrants, homosexuals, atheists etc for all evils of society as they have always done. Consequently we live in a society that is hostile to immigration and will become more hostile to immigration in the future.
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Dec 24, 2023 10:42
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It's because neoliberal economic policy made society worse and people lash out at the immigrants as the reason. The problem is these same people like those policies which made society worse so it's a positive feedback loop that just strenghtens itself. At least until some big enough catastrophe happens that make people change course. Like WW2.
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Dec 24, 2023 11:36
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Blut posted:
You stupid loving dolt, this is absolutly relevant. you are saying an entire group of people are relatively more likely to cause violent crime because of their cultural background. I just pointed out in another country, they aren't. The socio-economic factors are absolutely relevant - if one country only tends to let in middle class high skilled professionals from a particular group, while another country accepts people from all classes, while yet another mostly accepts working class/war refugees, the relevant crime statistics are going to be heavily determined by class . Lower skilled immigrants are going to tend to be poorer and more desperate and more likely to resort to crime, which will feed into public perceptions and how they're treated in the job market and any resulting feedback loop. The complete lack of class based analysis and your falling back to racial/cultural "incompatibility" gives the game away when you pretend you're speaking with the best of intentions about what "leftists" should do. quote:A deeply conservative, heavily religious, culture that impedes integration, promotes awful behaviour towards women, is often heavily anti-semetic, and is regularly violently incompatible with our hard won secular societies. All muslims = a self selecting group of people who identify with a particular politician and right wing political party. It's crazy to me that this far right freak posting about how muslims are fundamentally violent and incompatible with the west is allowed to post here. The hosed up thing to me is that he's likely to get what he wants, every liberal and socdem party in europe is more likely to get more and more xenophobic to keep a grip on power - socialist politics were effectively defeated with the end of the cold war and there's nowhere else to go. When they get exactly what they want and it fixes nothing and poo poo just keeps getting worse, like the UK xenophobes found out after brexit, I wonder where they'll go from there. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 24, 2023 18:42
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Blut posted:A deeply conservative, heavily religious, culture that impedes integration, promotes awful behaviour towards women, is often heavily anti-semetic, and is regularly violently incompatible with our hard won secular societies.
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Dec 24, 2023 19:09
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did Egypt beat Liechtenstein to universal suffrage
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Dec 24, 2023 19:19
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i say swears online posted:did Egypt beat Liechtenstein to universal suffrage Switzerland too
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Dec 24, 2023 19:23
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mila kunis posted:You stupid loving dolt, this is absolutly relevant. you are saying an entire group of people are relatively more likely to cause violent crime because of their cultural background. I just pointed out in another country, they aren't. The socio-economic factors are absolutely relevant - if one country only tends to let in middle class high skilled professionals from a particular group, while another country accepts people from all classes, while yet another mostly accepts working class/war refugees, the relevant crime statistics are going to be heavily determined by class . Lower skilled immigrants are going to tend to be poorer and more desperate and more likely to resort to crime, which will feed into public perceptions and how they're treated in the job market and any resulting feedback loop. The complete lack of class based analysis and your falling back to racial/cultural "incompatibility" gives the game away when you pretend you're speaking with the best of intentions about what "leftists" should do. You didn't post any actual statistics, and even at that off handedly tried to compare the immigrants of wildly different demographics that a country 8000km away from Europe gets. It wasn't exactly a "gotcha". Yes, the socio-economic factors are completely relevant - they're explicitly part of someone's culture. Theres no point in arguing that if Denmark (or anywhere else) only let in "middle class high skilled professionals" that the crime caused by the migrants from certian countries would be much lower, because thats not whats happening in reality in Europe in 2023. The reality, which the statistics in multiple European countries illustrate, is that the immigrants Europe is actually letting in from certain countries are significantly more likely to commit crime, and have problems integrating, than immigrants from other countries. And the common running theme from said problematic nationalities is conservative religious views, not race, or anything else. I'm sorry that this reality apparently triggers you so badly, but given the EU can take in a very limited number of migrants per year, its not remotely controversial to suggest that perhaps these limited number of spaces should be used on migrants who will integrate best. The fact the vast majority of the voting population supports this position is also rather relevant. Particlarly from a left-ist political point of view, given a) that the working class are the most opposed to migration and b) that large numbers of the migrants from said problematic countries are pretty much diametrically opposed to most left-wing cultural principles - secularism, LGBTQ rights, women's rights etc. Wanting less of the population hooked on the opium of the masses is a fundamental position of left-wing political thought over the last two hundred years, a left-wing political party wanting to prioritise letting in fewer heavily religious (of any race/religion - as I said white, Trump voting, evangelical Christians from Alabama would be just as problematic) migrants is completely consistent with this.
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Dec 24, 2023 20:16
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In Denmark, "non-western" immigrants and their descendants are also 65-70% more likely to be charged with a crime they're later acquitted of, for the record. Edit: Those stats further up the page are also not corrected for age. "Non-western" immigrants and their descendants are significantly younger overall in Denmark. "Indvandrere" = immigrants "Ikke-vestlige lande" = non-western countries "Mænd" = Men "Kvinder" = Women  Edit: Please come visit the Scandinavia thread if you question that Denmark is a deeply racist society, the country that invited a Swedish neo-nazi to exhibit his "art" inside the parliament building itself. This guy right here:  
SplitSoul fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Dec 25, 2023 |
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Dec 25, 2023 17:42
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More bad news about the economy from the banks in Finland. I do wonder why they bother publishing, seems it only makes things worse given that the economy seems to be based a lot on faith than anything solid. It's not like it matters for Finlands sake, I've noted that even when the economy goes well our debt just keeps going up and that simply won't change regardless of economic boom or bust. Feels like we're never gonna get out of this hole because we're stuck in the bloody euro and ever since we've been hosed and even if we think debt doesn't matter it does matter to people who run things. I think the euro has only really worked out for Germany and a few edge cases. And I think it's finally stopped working for Germany now too. Things feel like they are not gonna get better, we're just gonna keep doing austerity and cutting away at the welfare state and I am thinking I should move to Sweden. At least they got their own currency even if they got their problems, but we're turbo hosed in the long run compared to them. loving euro killed us, we're dead people walking just because some boomers got trauma over devaluations and doing idiot stuff in the 80s like the strong markka policy and idiots taking loans in foreign currencies and getting shafted hard for it. Talk about throwing out the baby, the bathtub, the bathroom, the plumbing and the soap with the bathwater. Yeah feeling quite downish today.
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Jan 4, 2024 07:33
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Euro is good only if you have an export-based economy, the moment you stop exporting it will strangle you. This could have prevented with clever stunts by the BCE but certain member states loved to put the finger on the scales so we are all hosed.
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Jan 4, 2024 11:12
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Finland is an export based economy and it's even loving us over. We entered the euro with a good economy with low debt and good prospects, really damned ideal. Now we're just spiraling around the drain and nothing works and there are no viable paths I can see that we can get our economy in shape anymore, it just isn't possible under the euro. We needed to devalue our currency back before 2010, instead all we got is austerity and it's not working and the moments of growth are insufficient to buck the trend.
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Jan 4, 2024 11:21
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Sweden’s funny money kronor ain’t too much better, though it’s *gotten* better than the past few months. The government is absolute trash in several terrible varieties, each major party with their own fetid rot. Nonetheless, you’re welcome to commiserate on this side of the Baltic, the more the merrier. If there’s one thing I’ve heard others express*, is that there are certain EU countries that seemed to consistently benefit from certain policies over other countries, particularly with the Euro. I was 12 and not living in Sweden during the Euro vote here, sort of picked up how Greece dealt with the debt crisis in 07-08 and lol, Brexit, but outside of that, are their other instances of preferential treatment within the EU? *I may be surrounded by idiots, not impossible
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Jan 4, 2024 11:31
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His Divine Shadow posted:Finland is an export based economy and it's even loving us over. Czech Republic is/has been in a very similar position except we didn't enter the euro, I think it's more the fault of neoliberalism and general economic trends of western manufacturing (and the destruction thereof) than anything. Also we devalued our currency and all it did was depress wages for over a decade. Even US manufacturing has been on a long-term downward slide outside of defence.
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Jan 4, 2024 11:39
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His Divine Shadow posted:Finland is an export based economy and it's even loving us over. I think Finnish economy was riding a massive boom at the turn of the millennium and it would have been pretty strange had that boom continue indefinetly into late 00's. Euro helps with exports outside eurozone. Finland does benefit from euro for the same reasons as Germany, and thanks to the fact that much of Finnish exports even within eurozone go to German export industry, what benefits German industries, benefits our industries. It's just that eurozone is inherently hosed because there's no common fiscal policy. Common monetary policy without common fiscal policy just doesn't work. Even powers that be realized this but they figured that by creating monetary union, it would push European integration over the critical mass and create a fiscal union through sheer inertia. Basically eurozone was a great instrument to push for further European integration in their minds. And lol it failed, and there was no further integration so now we're in a monetary union with each other without fiscal union so everytime there's a crisis it start another round of clusterfuck politics about support packages and austerity and lmao GG. So even if belonging to euro helps Finnish exports, it fucks us over in different areas making the overall benefits of euro less than stellar.
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Jan 4, 2024 11:46
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teen witch posted:Sweden’s funny money kronor ain’t too much better, though it’s *gotten* better than the past few months. The government is absolute trash in several terrible varieties, each major party with their own fetid rot. Basically like Finland then  teen witch posted:If there’s one thing I’ve heard others express*, is that there are certain EU countries that seemed to consistently benefit from certain policies over other countries, particularly with the Euro. The only country I can think of that benefitted was Germany who got a weaker currency that boosted their exports, while it screwed over countries like Italy who got a more expensive currency because Germanys influence made the currency too strong for them, damaging their competitiveness. And the euro basically is what allowed banks and nations to go crazy with borrowing up until 2008. Without it it couldn't have happened like that.
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Jan 4, 2024 12:05
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Owling Howl posted:I've been living here for 40+ years and anecdotally society seems to pretty consistently be getting more hostile to immigration. Election results and government policies across the continent appear to support that. Pretty much, and the problem as mentioned by another poster is that generally these tensions end with genocide and/or war. The EU was meant to use economy to never again let war break out in Europe but, but with war in the east and ethnic tensions constantly rising elsewhere it feels like an unsteady time. And for what it's worth, I'm not saying a massive war is imminent, and as it stands it's more likely Russia's imperialist actions risking hostilities to break out, but I'm worried that boiling the racism pot will cause untold suffering many times the scale of what we're already unleashing on the southern coast and Turkish border.
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Jan 4, 2024 12:12
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If the far right parties had more competent people in them, they would easily break 40% at every election. You just cant ignore certain topics and hope for the best. Just address the migration crisis, highlight EU advantages and read the room a little regarding topics coming up. Our left and center parties are just sleeping at the wheel. They are really forcing your hand if you are a center voter. Libluini posted:Conviction rates don't map to actual crime rates, this graph just reveals that there is a deep-set, systematic racism at work in the Danish state. "Stuff" like this makes the rise of the right possible. Ignoring reality is more dangerous than all the anti-immigrant speak combined. AutismVaccine fucked around with this message at 14:20 on Jan 4, 2024 |
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Jan 4, 2024 14:10
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His Divine Shadow posted:Finland is an export based economy and it's even loving us over. The UK didn't enter the Euro and left the EU, and we're also spiralling round the drain, nothing works and there are no viable paths I can see that we can get our economy in shape anymore
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Jan 4, 2024 14:35
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Gort posted:The UK didn't enter the Euro and left the EU, and we're also spiralling round the drain, nothing works and there are no viable paths I can see that we can get our economy in shape anymore Energy prices have gone up significantly and our exports are getting more competition from China. And the US which has energy advantages we just can't compete with. Meanwhile the public spending we did do resulted in inflation which is quite unpopular and we're just now getting under control. With the macro economic trends being what they are we are going to have a different economy going forward. There's just no way around that.
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Jan 4, 2024 14:46
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Gort posted:The UK didn't enter the Euro and left the EU, and we're also spiralling round the drain, nothing works and there are no viable paths I can see that we can get our economy in shape anymore Don't worry it's fine, the party about to come into power said that once they are in control, we can breathe a sigh of relief that the economy is now growing, because the vibe has changed. No policies needed.
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Jan 4, 2024 15:17
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Private Speech posted:Czech Republic is/has been in a very similar position except we didn't enter the euro, I think it's more the fault of neoliberalism and general economic trends of western manufacturing (and the destruction thereof) than anything. Also we devalued our currency and all it did was depress wages for over a decade. For US, Czech, and German manufacturing jobs, the actual low point was 2010. There are more manufacturing jobs in those countries now than there was in 2010. But for most other european countries, manufacturing jobs have been in an endless and seemingly unstoppable decline. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LFEAMNTTUSA647S https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LFEAMNTTCZQ647S https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LFEAMNTTDEQ647S https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LFEAMNTTFIA647S https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LFEAMNTTFRA647S https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LFEAMNTTGBQ647S
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Jan 4, 2024 21:40
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golden bubble posted:For US, Czech, and German manufacturing jobs, the actual low point was 2010. There are more manufacturing jobs in those countries now than there was in 2010. But for most other european countries, manufacturing jobs have been in an endless and seemingly unstoppable decline.
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Jan 5, 2024 05:55
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As a child I remember thinking how great it was going to be that everyone could all use the same money when they went on holidays. Like how could any economist think it was a good idea to have a single monetary policy for 20 different countries with wildly different economic policies and monetary needs. Can the eurozone even break up at this stage and everyone gets their own currency back? Maybe fracture the euro into a few different currencies to meet the needs of Germany and not-Germany.
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Jan 5, 2024 11:55
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breadshaped posted:As a child I remember thinking how great it was going to be that everyone could all use the same money when they went on holidays. and it is great, and it massively pushed tourism (and other things) in the southern countries breadshaped posted:Like how could any economist think it was a good idea to have a single monetary policy for 20 different countries with wildly different economic policies and monetary needs. They were expected to grow together and I think for a time this worked a bit except then 2008 came along ... breadshaped posted:Can the eurozone even break up at this stage and everyone gets their own currency back? Maybe fracture the euro into a few different currencies to meet the needs of Germany and not-Germany. I'm pretty sure all the EURO countries do have some plans to re-create a new separate currency. (and most of them would just crash to zero again and they wouldn't be able to get loans in their own currency anyway) I'm also pretty sure that would not be a all-minus-one currency. I'm also pretty sure half of the countries wouldn't want to be in the not-Germany currency. - Don't forget that there are countries still joining EURO and wanting to join.
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Jan 5, 2024 13:05
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It didn't work even then, everything was just fueled by credit. And it was the existence of the euro which even allowed european banks and countries to build up insane levels of debt to begin with. I do remember reading the papers that even the euro creators knew it wouldn't work, that it would cause a crisis, that would have to be solved by a fiscal union. Except oh no it completely backfired and we will never have a fiscal union now, the euro completely soured everyone on the german side of the fence on it, thinking they'd be picking up the tab for lazy southerners (this is now a common stereotype and is basically a socially allowed racism here by this point) And yeah I know you can't leave once you've joined. Barring something like WW3 anyway. And sure let countries join, if they wanna join our suicide cult who am I to say no?
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Jan 5, 2024 13:23
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As I recall the plan was that the UK would join the currency union and so our financial services, France's agribusiness and Germany's manufacturing would have the three of us keep the currency in a three-man standoff, which the UK reneging on (because ARE CURRENSEE) meant that Germany ended up being the currency kingmaker, which is bad because they took a good idea about bookkeeping and turned into twisted psychos about the idea of debt spending. Is there a reason France fumbled there? Or is the Common Agricultural Policy all they cared about and to hell with the boring cointalk?
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Jan 5, 2024 13:48
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I think they just didn't realize that the financial institutions who traded on government bonds couldn't do their business as usual anymore and their solution was to just lend more and more and more to make up for everyone suddenly having german interest rates. I doubt the UK entering this poo poo would've done any good at all.
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Jan 5, 2024 13:54
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I'm under the impression that Germany really wasn't keen on euro, but a decade earlier Francois Mitterrand had given his blessing to reunification of Germany only on the condition that Germany gave guarantees about joining the then planned euro. Basically Mitterrand was scared shitless about resurgent Germany so the way to guarantee French and European safety was to push through European integration and euro was seen as an essential tool in it because monetary union ties economies together on all levels. Expect as fiscal union, but like I wrote earlier, economists and European politicians knew that perfectly well. It's just that they saw euro as an instrument that would push the European integration over the edge into full blown economical union but that didn't happen so we ended up with the.........thing...we have now. German exports have of course benefitted from euro, it's just that German establishment knew that their historically inflation averse outlook would conflict with monetary policy of other European countries, hence they weren't very keen about it.
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Jan 5, 2024 13:58
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Germany has been weird about the whole austerity and schwarze null thing for about a hundred years, it's not caused by the Euro or anything. The various debt ceiling laws and directives (which Germans love) have also done stupid amounts of damage in the last decades, I'm not sure how exactly this relates to the Euro though or if it's more of political EU thing.
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Jan 5, 2024 14:00
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His Divine Shadow posted:
*glancing sideways at the FTSE* We'd at least solve the overvalued currency problem.
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Jan 5, 2024 14:00
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