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Ardennes posted:Also, the Europeans not being onboard is going to make it meaningless because the Russians largely cashed out their reserves in Dollars and Pounds so the US would be pushing for undermining itself for a fraction of that amount. That sounds like its a US ploy to make EU burn more bridges with Russia, a "monetary Nordstream" so to speak and the US and UK want Germany to blow up themselves.
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Dec 28, 2023 23:25
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The Oldest Man posted:Western financialization since the end of the cold war has left the US, UK, Germany, etc. in a position where they own huge swathes of world economic activity but most of that is the paper plane spreadsheet activity of finance capital. That activity is contingent on being the world's banking, investment, and financial broker. Using the economic high-ground of finance capital to seize paper assets from Russia doesn't actually hurt their ability to wage war in the short term since all the physical industries of war continue to operate, but it does create new and powerful incentives for everybody to build their own financial apparatus outside the control of the West. It's ultimately just an extension of banking logic - the reason you put your money in a bank is because you have some reason to believe you'll be able to get it back later, with some interest. As soon as the bank starts playing by different rules and deciding who can get their money back out, people start looking for the exits. If you are an elite literally anywhere outside NATO, you're now looking at this action and going "well guess I shouldn't put my money or investments in that system since they're going to steal it from me if I make them mad." Oh okay same old same old. I thought people meant that there was something special or novel about this particular attempt to cut Russia off from world finance that was even dumber than the last few.
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Dec 29, 2023 01:40
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Aging hegemon goes to apparatus of empire, says, "destroy my enemies," gets injected with a huge dose of finance capital and changes - DECLINE! Many such cases.
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Dec 29, 2023 01:45
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galagazombie posted:Oh okay same old same old. I thought people meant that there was something special or novel about this particular attempt to cut Russia off from world finance that was even dumber than the last few. it was a "freeze" before, they're proposing a "seize" now.
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Dec 29, 2023 02:29
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A little late to this part of the discussion and I quite literally can't talk about it in detail but I work in aerospace machining. Another department at my workplace makes a lot of sintered metal parts. The machines themselves are very cool and so are the parts they spit out but quite literally all of them require time consuming secondary operations on traditional machining centers. They're a pain in the rear end to set up, and the level of precision afforded to us by the printer's resolution relative to the final part tolerances mean we have to dial in each part in the machine, so setups are not repeatable. In my judgement, at the current evolution of the technology, what you gain in material savings(aluminum powder is cheap) you lose in print and secondary operation time. However there are some things I can think of where printing is sort of the only way to accomplish certain things(difficult geometry of the overall part that would otherwise require, say, complex bending that could introduce stresses). Idk. Point is I hate them because I have to do those secondary operations.
Admiral Bosch has issued a correction as of 14:55 on Dec 29, 2023 |
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Dec 29, 2023 14:46
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BearsBearsBears posted:I'm hearing a lot of anti-Space-X talk in this thread. Space-X is amazing if you give any shits at all about spaceflight,
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Dec 29, 2023 16:40
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Admiral Bosch posted:A little late to this part of the discussion and I quite literally can't talk about it in detail but I work in aerospace machining. Another department at my workplace makes a lot of sintered metal parts. The machines themselves are very cool and so are the parts they spit out but quite literally all of them require time consuming secondary operations on traditional machining centers. They're a pain in the rear end to set up, and the level of precision afforded to us by the printer's resolution relative to the final part tolerances mean we have to dial in each part in the machine, so setups are not repeatable. In my judgement, at the current evolution of the technology, what you gain in material savings(aluminum powder is cheap) you lose in print and secondary operation time. However there are some things I can think of where printing is sort of the only way to accomplish certain things(difficult geometry of the overall part that would otherwise require, say, complex bending that could introduce stresses). Idk. Point is I hate them because I have to do those secondary operations. Is powder truly cheaper than billets or shapes? I'd figure powders would be more expensive per kg due to their strict particle size requirement. I've only ever flown plastic 3d printed parts and only ever for cable routing components which basically could be used as-is since they're non-structural (and thus easier to get buy-offs from everyone to actually use it)
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Dec 29, 2023 18:31
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Justin Tyme posted:Is powder truly cheaper than billets or shapes? I'd figure powders would be more expensive per kg due to their strict particle size requirement. I've only ever flown plastic 3d printed parts and only ever for cable routing components which basically could be used as-is since they're non-structural (and thus easier to get buy-offs from everyone to actually use it) powder prices have dropped significantly in the past few years, probably not cheaper tha. billets though. think what he means by powder cost savings are the wasted materials associated with a subtractive process.
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Dec 29, 2023 18:37
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space is going to be for the ultra rich so i don't give a gently caress about it in fact we should be sabotaging the attempts
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Dec 29, 2023 18:41
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Regarde Aduck posted:space is going to be for the ultra rich so i don't give a gently caress about it its going to be funny when we have to accept random orbital garbage strikes as one of the risks of everyday life
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Dec 29, 2023 18:42
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Cursory search shows 6061 powder around $100/kg which is way more than billet but I suppose you get less waste, true. I don't really do much on the cost side of things though since we never mass produce anything, there may be cost savings somewhere but with the long process time of dmls and aforementioned pain in the rear end setup for final machining there are definite tradeoffs.
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Dec 29, 2023 18:47
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Regarde Aduck posted:space is going to be for the ultra rich so i don't give a gently caress about it Space is just the excuse to never fix anything. Just like the American frontier and Nazi Lebensraum, it is the idea that society can just runaway from its evil. Somehow run away from itself.
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Dec 29, 2023 19:15
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Regarde Aduck posted:space is going to be for the ultra rich so i don't give a gently caress about it Most of the rich guys funding it want space to be gundam-style where they send all the poors there, either because they want a pristine earth all to themselves so all the industry and labor has to eat poo poo in space (Bezoar) or because they want to be a feudal lord somewhere they can literally turn your air off if you displease them (Musk) Either way we can't let capitalism get off this planet
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Dec 29, 2023 19:21
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Bar Crow posted:Space is just the excuse to never fix anything. Just like the American frontier and Nazi Lebensraum, it is the idea that society can just runaway from its evil. Somehow run away from itself. otoh yuri loving Gagarin
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Dec 29, 2023 19:38
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Justin Tyme posted:Cursory search shows 6061 powder around $100/kg which is way more than billet but I suppose you get less waste, true. I don't really do much on the cost side of things though since we never mass produce anything, there may be cost savings somewhere but with the long process time of dmls and aforementioned pain in the rear end setup for final machining there are definite tradeoffs. I mean cost of labor has to be figured into it as well right?
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Dec 29, 2023 19:47
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The Oldest Man posted:
Capitalism itself as an ideology and economic system cannot get off this planet due to the built in limitations. Any serious voyage into space is going to need a long term base out of the gravity well, which will take decades with massive investment and resources backing it up. All it takes is a short dip in the stock for the company to cancel the entire project, even if there's already 100 folks stuck up there with no way to get back after the company shutter everything down for a tax write off.
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Dec 29, 2023 19:47
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NeonPunk posted:Capitalism itself as an ideology and economic system cannot get off this planet due to the built in limitations. I like that optimism
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Dec 29, 2023 21:40
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The Oldest Man posted:I like that optimism There are no indigenous cultures to enslave and loot to make up for the large long-term costs associated with space development. Any benefits will come only in the very long term, or as a surprise after a large foundation of basic science has been done. Companies hate doing basic science R&D.
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Dec 29, 2023 23:51
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Capitalism just needs to find the Na'vi planet to fester.
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Dec 30, 2023 00:26
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unwantedplatypus posted:There are no indigenous cultures to enslave and loot to make up for the large long-term costs associated with space development. Any benefits will come only in the very long term, or as a surprise after a large foundation of basic science has been done. Companies hate doing basic science R&D. There are plenty of examples where someone will swim upstream long enough to get a first mover advantage and get a big fat valuation based on the idea of infinite growth on top of their highest growth ramp so that the initial investors can cash out, and then enshittify what they built to maximize rent as the growth projections crater and everything returns to the dogshit reality. That's what basically every tech company did 2005-2016, and it's what both of the big rich guy space fantasy companies are doing right now. And unfortunately for everyone, indigenous populations and mineral wealth aren't the only forms of exploitable resources under capitalism. Empty space in orbit can be privatized for profit just like the electromagnetic spectrum was. SpaceX is already profitable and it's going to keep being profitable as long as they can keep crowding up space with satellites and charging people hundreds dollars a month to use them. Now is that profitability for doing space infrastructure around Earth going to translate into Elon's space fief on Mars? Probably not organically but he'll keep setting his own money on fire to move the ball that way as long as he's alive, and as long as he's got the money and there's an infinite growth story to prop up SpaceX's absurd valuation, they'll be working on it.
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Dec 30, 2023 00:35
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I like the idea of space mineral exploitation. It's obviously out of reach and completely infeasible but it's fun to imagine spaceX moving a huge chunk of gold, platinum, or emeralds into near earth orbit. But then rather than actually land it on earth or use the material for manufacturing, it becomes a threat used to manipulate market prices on spreadsheets. "Better keep buying gold at spot price or I'll crash the entire market by bringing in hundreds of tons of space gold!" That kind of idea.
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Dec 30, 2023 00:58
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space "flight" is bullshit, u fly out of the atmosphere sure but as soon as you're in space its just falling with no down
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Dec 30, 2023 01:00
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palindrome posted:I like the idea of space mineral exploitation. It's obviously out of reach and completely infeasible but it's fun to imagine spaceX moving a huge chunk of gold, platinum, or emeralds into near earth orbit. Elon musk's space citadel where he sits atop a golden throne
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Dec 30, 2023 01:01
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blatman posted:space "flight" is bullshit, u fly out of the atmosphere sure but as soon as you're in space its just falling with no down Space float
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Dec 30, 2023 01:01
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It's cool though cause once you're out of orbit, everything you escaped from is downhill from you. The moon could gently caress up earth big time just from the kinetic energy advantage it has. Start throwing mass down at the planet from your WW4 style moon/orbital station fortress.
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Dec 30, 2023 01:05
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palindrome posted:It's cool though cause once you're out of orbit, everything you escaped from is downhill from you. The moon could gently caress up earth big time just from the kinetic energy advantage it has. Start throwing mass down at the planet from your WW4 style moon/orbital station fortress. how much damage would the ISS do if they dropped it on washington? their souls are held down by gravity
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Dec 30, 2023 01:08
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Bar Crow posted:Space is just the excuse to never fix anything. Just like the American frontier and Nazi Lebensraum, it is the idea that society can just runaway from its evil. Somehow run away from itself. mawarannahr posted:otoh yuri loving Gagarin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqyXvMrQDk8
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Dec 30, 2023 01:11
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unwantedplatypus posted:There are no indigenous cultures to enslave and loot to make up for the large long-term costs associated with space development. Any benefits will come only in the very long term, or as a surprise after a large foundation of basic science has been done. Companies hate doing basic science R&D. Yeah, the optimistic take is that capitalist greed alone can ever do any science. Companies spending money on fart app r&d in the 21st century is not the same. It's usually the gov that does the science and then lets some company make the money. Since no one, aside from the Chinese, is spending much money or energy in space dev there's not going to be any space science for them to leech off of. None of these billionaire losers could successfully setup a hosed up half rear end island of dr moreau much less any kind of dystopian space colony/prison/mine/etc. They might jerk off over the idea but they can't do it.
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Dec 30, 2023 01:14
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FuzzySlippers posted:Yeah, the optimistic take is that capitalist greed alone can ever do any science. Companies spending money on fart app r&d in the 21st century is not the same. It's usually the gov that does the science and then lets some company make the money. Since no one, aside from the Chinese, is spending much money or energy in space dev there's not going to be any space science for them to leech off of. That's pretty optimistic considering that pretty much the entirety of net-new launch capability in the US since 2010 or so is privately developed, owned, and operated by the guy who is funding it explicitly so he can be king of mars and his company for doing that is both self-funding at this point and actively working on the "send serfs to mars" system You're right though that capitalistic greed alone isn't doing it. You also need narcissistic megalomania 
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Dec 30, 2023 01:31
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palindrome posted:It's cool though cause once you're out of orbit, everything you escaped from is downhill from you. The moon could gently caress up earth big time just from the kinetic energy advantage it has. Start throwing mass down at the planet from your WW4 style moon/orbital station fortress. Eh, rods from god can be setup with a single heavy lift launch.
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Dec 30, 2023 01:32
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The Oldest Man posted:That's pretty optimistic considering that pretty much the entirety of net-new launch capability in the US since 2010 or so is privately developed, owned, and operated by the guy who is funding it explicitly so he can be king of mars and his company for doing that is both self-funding at this point and actively working on the "send serfs to mars" system Pointing to SpaceX as evidence that capitalism can do space development is like looking at a canoe and imagining a frigate.
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Dec 30, 2023 01:51
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The Oldest Man posted:That's pretty optimistic considering that pretty much the entirety of net-new launch capability in the US since 2010 or so is privately developed, owned, and operated by the guy who is funding it explicitly so he can be king of mars and his company for doing that is both self-funding at this point and actively working on the "send serfs to mars" system trying hard to maybe get US space capability back to an early 70s level is pretty far from Musk being able to be king of space anything. It wouldn't surprise me if he never lives to see an American take a single step on Mars. The fact that useless billionaires are the only ones driving US space dev is why I'm not expecting the US to do much of anything in space for my lifetime at least. edit: unwantedplatypus posted:Pointing to SpaceX as evidence that capitalism can do space development is like looking at a canoe and imagining a frigate. great way to put it
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Dec 30, 2023 01:51
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unwantedplatypus posted:Pointing to SpaceX as evidence that capitalism can do space development is like looking at a canoe and imagining a frigate. FuzzySlippers posted:trying hard to maybe get US space capability back to an early 70s level is pretty far from Musk being able to be king of space anything. It wouldn't surprise me if he never lives to see an American take a single step on Mars. The fact that useless billionaires are the only ones driving US space dev is why I'm not expecting the US to do much of anything in space for my lifetime at least. i doubt elon's vision is ever going to come true because it's a stupid vision that doesn't make sense, but hoping he will just fail on his own while the expertise, manufacturing capacity, number of launches, and available actual vehicles continue to pile into the "rich capitalist psychopath" column is the same cope as people looking at the comparative chinese and american shipbuilding tonnage stats and assuming america will just win a naval confrontation anyway due to reasons, just going the other direction. there is absolutely nothing good about that status quo. even if the outcome is just that spacex flies a billion tons of garbage into earth orbit and then goes under due to terminal capitalism, that's still terrible for everyone.
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Dec 30, 2023 02:09
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blatman posted:space "flight" is bullshit, u fly out of the atmosphere sure but as soon as you're in space its just falling with no down Calling it space bottle rockets isn't as mass market appealing.
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Dec 30, 2023 02:32
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The Oldest Man posted:i doubt elon's vision is ever going to come true because it's a stupid vision that doesn't make sense, but hoping he will just fail on his own while the expertise, manufacturing capacity, number of launches, and available actual vehicles continue to pile into the "rich capitalist psychopath" column is the same cope as people looking at the comparative chinese and american shipbuilding tonnage stats and assuming america will just win a naval confrontation anyway due to reasons, just going the other direction. there is absolutely nothing good about that status quo. even if the outcome is just that spacex flies a billion tons of garbage into earth orbit and then goes under due to terminal capitalism, that's still terrible for everyone. What they are actually doing just results in them reduplicating old US efforts except maybe cheaper and easier. To get to dystopian visions you have to expect them to accomplish all they say and then innovate wildly. This isn't cope because there is nothing that I'm worried about. They are not building Elysium they are just doing the same poo poo done before and slurp up gov contracts. I'm not concerned about Musk doing evil in space for the same reason I'm not concerned about MIC evil robots conquering the planet. They are too incompetent even if they had the willpower to try which they don't. They already have plenty of ways to oppress people without having to gently caress around in space. Everything about the status quote is bad, but more from a depressing scam country way than an impending doom of space billionaires. Billionaires loving around in space feels no different than them loving around in the deep oceans where they will inevitably gently caress things up, cause future problems from their bullshit, but not cataclysmically so especially compared to what their fortunes are already doing. It's really just sad they are the only ones trying more than anything else. I wish other countries luck in their explorations, and I hope they find cool poo poo while we find innovative ways to waste taxpayer and investor money. Everyone launching space junk is an issue but that's far from a Musk specific one and that seems inevitable as it became cheaper to do so. If there is no good solution to the problem of space junk then there's a fermi paradox answer I guess 
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Dec 30, 2023 02:42
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FuzzySlippers posted:What they are actually doing just results in them reduplicating old US efforts except maybe cheaper and easier. To get to dystopian visions you have to expect them to accomplish all they say and then innovate wildly. This isn't cope because there is nothing that I'm worried about. They are not building Elysium they are just doing the same poo poo done before and slurp up gov contracts. I'm not concerned about Musk doing evil in space for the same reason I'm not concerned about MIC evil robots conquering the planet. They are too incompetent even if they had the willpower to try which they don't. They already have plenty of ways to oppress people without having to gently caress around in space. all you need to see their rot is that logitech f710 sub
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Dec 30, 2023 02:50
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https://apnews.com/article/nebraska-summer-ebt-food-program-children-789f2d04bd195086d2e41d0d43b8111cquote:apnews.com the new old army recruitment crisis is going to be severe malnutrition and illiteracy
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Dec 30, 2023 02:56
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School lunch programs were introduced because they noticed that guys showing up for service for WW2 were malnourished.
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Dec 30, 2023 03:03
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(puts on top hat and monocle, swirls brandy) Rather that re-introduce school lunches to combat malnutrition during an enlistment shortfall crisis and thus spend good money on those filthy disgusting poors I suggest we simply re-introduce cannibalism as the solution, so long as they only eat other poor people of course.
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Dec 30, 2023 03:13
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DancingShade posted:(puts on top hat and monocle, swirls brandy) Implement the Purge and recruit the survivors, who will be the strongest of the poors.
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Dec 30, 2023 03:16
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